zorweb,
I hadn't gotten back to you because I have been very busy. However, I did want to respond to your comments. So, here goes...

Repentance is an act, an act of contrition and an act of penitence. Like you said, it requires that a person REPENT, accept Jesus and then live the faith. All of these are acts and works. I hardly see where carrying on an affair then marrying you affair partner falls into anything that resembles ‘a Christ like life’. But then again people generally can justify anything they do in their own minds.

Wnen he and I marry, if we so chose, we could repent our sins, ask Jesus to be our personal Lord and Savior, and then try our best to live according to the Word. According to the teachings of our pastor and the bible we would be forgiven.

I just hate to see the awful, hateful things people do to each other and then the perpetrators acting so sanctimonious. Almost like what was done was wonderful or honorable.

I never stated it was wonderful or honorable.

Would it be better if he had just left and not pursued his parenting time? OMG, this is not about you, it’s about a child. Interesting that your take was that I was suggesting that he leave his child and not leave you. No that is not at all the point.

I never said it was about "me". The point is he HAS left. tHEY ARE DIVORCED. It is still his right to parent his child whether he is in the marital home or not.

At this point it is best that both he and she do the best they can to raise their child.

I agree.

It would be honorable of him to not bring up his daughter in the home of the woman who helped destroy her family of origin. The damage is done.

We have bought a house - he lives here. What do you suggest? Should he go get a hotel room for his visits? Family of origin - laughable. We are talking about a marriage that after 2 months they both realized they made a huge mistake. he stayed to assist her throughout the pregnancy, they BOTH had EMRs, they both have a live-in now.

What would be best is if he went to his wife and asked forgiveness, returned to the marriage and gave his daughter an intact home.

An intact home? What to you is an intact home? just because these 2 were married in no way meant they had an "intact" home. They no longer loved each other. In fact, they both have commented that they now realize they never did and that they each married for the wrong reasons. they argued all the time. She stayed away from home to avoid hoim and he did the same. So you are suggesting that 2 people who live separate lives, argue, do not love or respect one another should have stayed married, be miserable, and provide her with an "intact" home.

It would have been best is if he had worked on his marriage from day one with no interference from women who was willing to give him a place to run to. A woman who was more then happy to help destroy his marriage.. and I will not buy that that was not your intent. Your intent is shown by your actions today.

What actions today?

Or if he felt that the marriage was such a terrible one that instead of messing around on the side he had acted like an honorable man and left her.

Oh, so you'd prefer he had left when she was pregnant? Due to her diabetes she was out of work. AND, he had left. he had already rented a place and was in it. he went back after she revealed she was pregnant.

In the best of all possible worlds they would get back together and build a viable family for that child. But that is obviously not going to happen.

That’s one thing I really like about Scarlet, she’s come to a point where she gets it and calls it like it is. She knows where she is in her life now and where she was in the past.

I like Scarlet too.

Katie is right about the infidelity is a curse and cheating is it's own punishment. The same goes for a marriage that is born of an affair.… that is where the Karma comes in. One of the major things that come out of it is that the solid foundation of trust has been broken. I’ve seen it over and over in marriages founded on affairs. Probably why very few last very long. To jump from one relationship into another is problematic. It does not allow the parties involved to heal emotionally and grow from the hurt they caused and that was caused to them.

In fact, I know of several that have lasted a long time. Cali's father's M comes to mind. A poster on gloryb. Also another poster here at MB - although I can't recall her name - it was her parent's marriage also.

Blended families are rewarding. For who? Certainly not the children in most cases.

Well, we strive to make it that way for the kids involved.

Not all marriages that end have excessive fighting. “A parent can divorce his or her spouse w/out divorcing the children.” That’s a cute phrase used by people to make themselves feel better about the harm they are causing. It’s also a phrase used to by parents, myself included to assure a hurt and scared child that their parents are not going to abandon them as the parents did to each other.

Their marriage did. This has been told to me by both of them. He has divorced W, but remains an active daddy. We have her 3 days every week.

I got some video footage and some reg pictures to send to her mother next week.

Has your STBSD’s mother asked for such photos? Do she and her ex-husband exchange such photos and videos regularly? If the answer to both of those are no, then please do not give her any photos of your home life even if it depicts her daughter. It’s a mean, cruel act.. the underlying message would probably hurt her tremendously.

Yes, she asked for pictures. I am not some sort of gloating FOW who is trying to send photos to irk the FBS. Get real. She also asked for pics from Easter. Wouldn't you want photos of your child's first time in a swimming pool? Or her second Easter and first Easter egg hunt? I am always careful to take several photos of the baby alone so the FBS does not have to see photos of her daughter interacting w/ me or my children. the video footafe was only for us. tew

[ May 27, 2003, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: zorweb ]

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zorweb
Member
Member # 10154

posted May 27, 2003 09:22 AM
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KatHurt,

I’d say that Tew has given all good insight into the type of woman who tries to/breaks up a marriage.

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The rain has finally let up here on the east coast so i;m going to try and keep this quick so that I can get back to my hammock.

Disclaimer: this is probably going to piss some people off. Be warned.

#1-we all see this from our own sides for our own reasons. That is only human

#2-I have nothing but respect for tew's path and recognize that there are those here who wil only see/read her one way - the dredded ow

#3-now this is strickly my opinion and this is the part that 's going to piss some people off

Having read this board for more than a year now and despite opinions to the contrary, I have come to understand that some people here are addicted to "fantasy" the same way I was addicted to drama.

Not pointed to any person in particular, there seems (in my opinion) to be a culture on Mb AND in the real world, that once you get married you're ok. That your inherient value comes from having a partner to claim as your own. Now if for some reason that person is gone or if your partner falls out of love you have somehow love value and that MUST be prevented at all cost.

NOW, this DOES NOT excuse affairs. They are always wrong. In a perfect world their would be no cheating, there would be no divorce, death, hunger ,etc.

But in the real world, marriages end. And it's unfair. But are there situations where marriages end and that is the best case senerio. (and i'm not just talking about people who fight every day).

I personally think that the people who scream loudest and hardest and longest against divorce (reguardless of why the divorce happened) are those for whom marriage is their only source of self worth.

Again, JMHO
(light the flame throwers)

There is nothing you said in that post that inflames me. In all honesty, the OW wouldn't have had a chance at my husband if he hadn't made himself available. My issue is with him not her. She is a tramp, that is a known fact about her around there. As H says, she likes it like a man does. She decided she wanted him, and he allowed her in.

My marriage state was probably more MY fault than anyone's. *I* was happy, I was content and fufilled, had friends, had a really easy time. I paid little to no attention to H. My bad, I see it, I own it.

OW aren't all bad, vicious harlots. H's ow isn't a *bad* as in evil person, she is just loose. One of my closest friend's was an OW. She got pg on purpose to make him marry her. When she did that, I had to stop being friends with her. We had a business together and I just couldn't abide by that behavior. Actually, it was the fact she started lying to me saying she was on the pill when I knew for a fact she wasn't(I was trying to get pg and we did pg tests together for MONTHS) I had thought she was just being paranoid, when in reality, it was a trap

4 years later we met up and became friends again, she had married him and he had seemed to change into a very caring husband. They had two kids at that point and so did I. Granted, he rarely sees his daughter from the first marriage, and she lives in the same time. Want to hear irony? They will have nothing to do with ME now because I stayed with H. That is irony. Whatever, such is life.

In all honesty, it isn't the dreaded ow, it the husband who pledged his faithfulness to you in the first place. My pain and anger are directed at him. Doesn't mean I like her, or think highly of her.

I do have to say posting from your end and your opinion *here* is like going to a weight watchers site and saying how being a size 2 is so hard to deal with. Or an infertility site and complain about getting pregnant at the drop of a hat. Your point of view is valid, just sometimes not the one that people in pain want to hear

I wish no harm on my ow. I do wish her to never look at a married man again though. I probably have cured her of a married man fetish, who knows though!

Scarlett,
I thought that was a great post. A hammock - ah I envy you. Speaking of Scarlett, I love the movie. And Gone With the Wind also. I put Scarlett part 2 in this a.m. after work for me and FMM to fall asleep to.

naive,
I believe you were within your rights to quit your former friend. To get pregnant on purpose is a low down and dirty trick for any woman to do. Interesting that after a D, new M, and 2 kids they don't want to be around you because you stayed w/ H. That is crazy. If anything they should have been wishing you well.

I wanted to compliment you on the fact that your posts are very honest, open, and not outright insulting to OW in general. I find no fault in the comments you make about your H's FOW as you know her far better than any of us.

I truly hope you and H succeed in redeeming and reclaiming your marriage.

kathurt,
How are you doing? I know a lot of people felt I shouldn't post on JFO and I usually don't. However, this thread was addressed w/ OW in title. I don't want to "take over" your thread. If you would feel more comfortable I will move and address my replies on General. Please let me know as it is not my desire to offend you, and if I have - I apologize.

I will be checking back throughout the day as I am curious to see if zorweb replies. I have to run to the grocery store and a coouple of other errands. I have to pick up the baby at 5. FMM has to be at work at 6. I will also check back tonight after she is asleep - if she sleeps! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> tew

P.S. zorweb - if you ever have time check out my thread on general titled something like wouldn't you rather be flexible w/ X than leave baby w/ OW. It explains a lot about our situation. I have never wanted to be involved in the dynamics or logistics w/ visitations and communications etc. except by filing his court papers. It is she that often chooses to involve me. And she won't be flexible w/ his schedule. For example, she is well aware that of the 72 hours we have her he has to work 32 of them. We wanted to switch days which would have given him and HER more free time w/ the baby. She refused. We go back to court in July to get it changed officially. tew

i have been happily married for 27 yrs. till my husband and o/w started their A 12/02. we have 3 kids f-23 f-19 m-13. the o/w sat at my table, ate dinner with us. i rode with her to my sons football game. my oldest daughter found her a place to live, as she is thank god! from out of state. what kind of a woman enters into a family's life and then has an affair with the man. my kids hate her. i no my husband is at fault too, but god! how can she not feel guilty. this is allso her second A with a married man.

Hi Kat!

I read SOME of the replies...not all, after the third page, it felt as if things were going downhill and away from your questions. Maybe you got the answers you were hunting...or at the very least some different view points.

But...anyway...here I am! And this one is going to hurt some! BEWARE!!!!!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What kind of woman tries to/breaks up a marriage? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IF..a big "if"...the woman is actually out to break up a marriage from the get-go...a very sick one! But, most affairs don't begin because the OP is interested in breaking up a marriage...it's because they find themselves attracted to someone who "just happens to be married"...and they don't have the inner strength or values to say "STOP!". (Remember, these same questions could have been written by her H about your H. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> )

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it just me, am I old fashion but I cannot understand what goes through a woman's mind when she is having an affair with a married man. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As what is going through a person's mind when they are involved in an affair with someone who is married...my guess is that they focus on the "good feelings" of newness, downplay the negatives as much as the can. They put all their thoughts and energy into what they see as the positive and only deal with the negatives when forced to do so. They try their best to de-humanize the spouse into being a non-issue or work very hard to only see the negatives of the BS, keeping their focus only on those issues which they can help justify their own actions and choices and ignoring those issues which would force them to confront their own responsibilty for their wrong choices.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In my case she was married too(for 3 years). No kids. She knew that my H loved and cared madly for his kids but she continued to play a part in this dirty farce. I am not saying that my H is not partly to blame too but you do not take what is not yours... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The fact that she also was married shows that she had little regard for her own vows or promises. So it's unlikely that she'd view someone else's vows as being important. (Sorry, hon...but the same could have been said for your H at the time....lots of justification going on for both of them.) It is also possible that she is feeling the same remorse that your H is feeling. The same shame, the same guilt, the same or worse "h*ll on earth" when dealing with her H over her affair...you must not just assume that she has gone on her merry way with no negative reflections on what she did.

As for the children issues...as we've discussed before, the WS almost never thinks of how their behavior will effect and impact on their children. They give little enough thought to the spouse. They always make themselves believe..."I'll never get caught! I'm in control! No one will get hurt!".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How does she feel now I wonder, now that we are together and trying to recover with all our might. Will she realise how little the sordid A meant to him? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is no way of knowing what is going on with her, her marriage or anything at all to do with her. Nor, should you be focusing on her. This is counterproductive. jmho But anyway...It's fairly likely that she already knows how little the affair meant to your H...considering that he dumped her so quickly and completely. jmho

And it's likely that when she thinks of your marriage situation today...she believes that your H and you are swimming along famously without a care...he got off "scot-free", just as you tend to think she did.

[QUOTE]
What kind of morals do these females have? [QUOTE]

Each individual, either those who have had affairs or those who do not, have whatever morals/values they have. It's possible that they have high morals, but still have broken them. Betraying themselves along with those who care for them.

You must remember...even while you are so angry at the OW which has invaded your life...she was allowed to do so. She did not do anything that your H didn't do. Both crossed a line, both hurt those who love and care for them. Both made major errors in judgements, both made foolish and stupid mistakes and harmed those who they vowed to protect.

The only thing difference is that you see everyday the remorse and shame your H is burdened with. You want to lift some of this off him, you love him, YET...you're still really angry at him for his carelessness with what is of great value. You do NOT see or know what is going on with her. You do not see if she is in pain or if she is filled with remorse. You "picture" that she is doing fine, going on her merry way with a smile which resembles the "cat in the cream"...but this may be far from the truth.

Focus on you and your H...not her and whatever she must face in her life. She is NOT the issue. You're H is remorseful, he loves you and his family. He broke faith with you and he is doing everything in his power to make amends and to show you that he will never do so again. He's made great strides in his behavior, he realizes what he almost lost and he knows the value of what almost was gone forever.

Keep your focus!!! HUGS!!!!

Some women think they are needed in that way, and it give's them a form of release, and usually it is a forced learned ability from their childhood. It is not that they dont know right from wrong, some dont, but it is recycling of the abuse.
And without help they will alway's think they are to blame and continue to do so.

What I cant understand is, unless a person has been living under a rock their whole life, how can anyone take these kind of chance's with knowing what the world is like?

tewjtm

I have no problems with you replying on this tread. Sorry can't say more but my H and I are having a birthday party for OUR DS.

Wifey

I love you. Nice to have you back oh wise one.

speak soon

Hugs

I wonder constantly what this OW was thinking when she asked my H if he would like to follow her home!! She was a bartender at one of his stops (he works for a beer company).

He stopped for a drink when he was done with work, they started flirting, and then she said she got done in a few minutes if he wanted to follow her home.

I blame my H completely for saying yes!! Why couldn't he have just said no to her?? He doesn't even know her last name!! She moved away shortly after their A.

But she knew he was married!! What kind of person even asks a married man to follow her home???

God, this hurts so much!!

Katie Scarlett,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I personally think that the people who scream loudest and hardest and longest against divorce (reguardless of why the divorce happened) are those for whom marriage is their only source of self worth.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No flame throwers, I promise... but I have to disagree and wonder if you've ever looked at it from this angle. What if a person's self worth comes from their passion for keeping promises,seeing committments through and doing things right? I agree that in many cases divorce is inevitable. Unfortunately, many marriages fail to pass some pretty fundamental tests and challenges and people never find out what a great couple they can be together because they gave up too soon or too easily.

As far as the whole "how could she".... I just HAVE to say this.... As my H and I inch further along in our own recovery, I'm finding out a few things that have actually helped me see the A, my H and XOW in a different light. As my H faces the challenge of meeting needs of mine that probably wouldn't be there had it not been for the A, I now understand what it's like to need something soooooo badly that you are obligated to turn to one person for.... and not be able to get it. I also found out that OW's H did the exact same thing to her. She was pregnant, he had an A, put her through hell, etc. I totally understand what it's like to be so hurt that you make stupid decisions. Knowing what I went through, knowing that I almost found myself in some pretty questionable situations, I understand how a person can arrive at this point (atleast in this particular case)... suprised, betrayed and even terrified by your own all-consuming emotions. Yes, the actual decision comes down to what we chose to do in a few seconds, and that's what sets us apart, but SMART PEOPLE DO STUPID THINGS. WE ALL DO.

If you are a BS, try... PLEASE try not to even wonder about the mind of an adulterous woman... it's not something everyone is meant to GET. It's almost like trying to explain what it's like to be 30 to a 15 year old. The only way to understand is by being 30 or damned close to it. I hope I haven't oversimplified this to an offensive point, but it really is quite healing and liberating to understand this. The OP's sin is not about YOU; it's not even about your spouse it's about them... about their own their own inability, for whatever reason, to make a bad decision during those few crucial seconds.

Please do not give anyone such power. I did not "take him away". The truth of the matter is that these 2 people jumped the gun and married before they really knew each other. They both admit it was a mistake. He tried to make it work for the baby's sake. However as my grandmother often told me a baby can make a good marriage better and a bad marriage worse.

And when the marriage never had a chance because the husband had an affair from day one of the marriage, the marriage will still not have a chance even after the baby….. when the OW is still in the wings.

tewjtm, this is the thread you directed me to?

From that thread I learned what the acronym of your name means… "the end will justify the means". And you say that your intent was not to break up his marriage?

I thought your story sounded familiar. I remember you now from many moons ago. I see that you did not take the advice of everyone here to end both of your affairs. Instead as we all predicted you lost your job over them. You see what we mean about karma?

I’ve learned something from you Tew.. something about salvation and ends and means. So I have a new life plan now.

I am going to embezzle money.. lots of it. Once I have about $50 million I’m going at accept Jesus and be saved. That way I’ll not have to face the consequences of my actions at the pearly gates. Coooool……

You see, the end does not justify the means.

You know cut me a break! I have never posted before, but the other man came after me. I went to court for DV and he wanted to confort me. I was in another room and he came in and asked me for a kiss. Don't just blame and flame, I think you need to be hear both sides (bytheway 1st husband screwed everyone and then moved in with ow 4

wishuponafalling

If the WS (wayward spouse) and the OP (other person) are not responsibile for their own actions of having an affair, then who the hey is?

zorweb,
And when the marriage never had a chance because the husband had an affair from day one of the marriage, the marriage will still not have a chance even after the baby&#8230;.. when the OW is still in the wings.

Not that it matters, but it was not from day one.

From that thread I learned what the acronym of your name means&#8230; "the end will justify the means". And you say that your intent was not to break up his marriage?

No, it wasn't. I didn't even know at first he was married. Reread just a wifey's post. Many OW's actions are selfish, as mine were, but I did not set out to break up a relationship that i didn't even know existed. Once he told me and we reevaluated our feelings for one another, he rented me a house. It was his intent for me to move in and he would D W while living at home w/ mom. I posted a lot at gloryb then and was hesitant to move in due to some of the stories there. His W and him talked and decided to D. he moved into what was to one day be "our" place before I did. Early Dec he found out she was P and we yalked about moving him back to marital home. he did and I moved into "our" place in Jan - alone. If it was my "intent" to break up M I wouldn't have supported him and encouraged him to return home.

I thought your story sounded familiar. I remember you now from many moons ago. I see that you did not take the advice of everyone here to end both of your affairs. Instead as we all predicted you lost your job over them. You see what we mean about karma?

Clearly you don't remember the story that well. i lost job in March of 2002. Karma was great. As that was the time FMM initialluy moved in I had a lot of time to spend w/ him one on one as I collected the max benefits of unemployment until late Jan of this year. A long overdue vacation. I am now working for an atty from home. I write and proofread for the paper. I also work pvt security. My new life is much less stressful and flexible enough to allow me to rearrange my schedule for the kids - his kids and mine.

zorweb,
You didn't respond to the following. I was curious as to your opinions on these issues.

Would it be better if he had just left and not pursued his parenting time? OMG, this is not about you, it&#8217;s about a child. Interesting that your take was that I was suggesting that he leave his child and not leave you. No that is not at all the point.

I never said it was about "me". The point is he HAS left. They are DIVORCED. It is still his right to parent his child whether he is in the marital home or not. Correct?

It would be honorable of him to not bring up his daughter in the home of the woman who helped destroy her family of origin. The damage is done.

We have bought a house - he lives here. What do you suggest? Should he go get a hotel room for his visits? Family of origin - laughable. We are talking about a marriage that after 2 months they both realized they made a huge mistake. he stayed to assist her throughout the pregnancy, they BOTH had EMRs, they both have a live-in now.

What would be best is if he went to his wife and asked forgiveness, returned to the marriage and gave his daughter an intact home.

An intact home? What to you is an intact home? just because these 2 were married in no way meant they had an "intact" home. They no longer loved each other. In fact, they both have commented that they now realize they never did and that they each married for the wrong reasons. they argued all the time. She stayed away from home to avoid hoim and he did the same. So are you suggesting that 2 people who live separate lives, argue, do not love or respect one another should have stayed married, be miserable, and provide her with an "intact" home?

A woman who was more then happy to help destroy his marriage.. and I will not buy that that was not your intent. Your intent is shown by your actions today.

What actions today?

Or if he felt that the marriage was such a terrible one that instead of messing around on the side he had acted like an honorable man and left her.

Oh, so you'd prefer he had left when she was pregnant?

Due to her diabetes she was out of work. AND, he had left. he had already rented a place and was in it. He went back after she revealed she was pregnant.

Yes, she asked for pictures. I am not some sort of gloating FOW who is trying to send photos to irk the FBS. Get real. She also asked for pics from Easter.

Wouldn't you want photos of your child's first time in a swimming pool? Or her second Easter and first Easter egg hunt - refardless of the source?tew

Kat in my book you have to look at what type of affair happened and you have to look at both parties motives.

While everything I read lists a large number of types of affairs I condensed it down to just three categories.

1) Want Out Affair: This is when either of the married parties is so unhappy they want out of their current marriage but want to find someone to leave for. Its called an exit affair when the wayward spouse leaves for the OP. But I think many affairs are just like dating before marriage...you are searching for a certain someone.

In this case you are right Kat its a terrible person to do such a thing. Of course this raises the question did both party comtemplate divorcing? Did one party play the I want to leave my spouse in order to get what they wanted from the other wayward party?

Statistically speaking exit affairs are a very small percentage of affairs.

2) Me affairs: These are affairs in which the wayward spouse committs the affair soley for personal gain. Maybe they are bored. Maybe they feel their spouse is not meeting certain needs. Maybe they like the conquest or ego part of the affair. Or perhaps they just like the extra sexual attention.

I would say a high percentage of these affairs are committed by men when seeking physical pleasure. And by women seeking emotional attention.

This is probably the largest group of wayward spouses.

This gets tricky because its a judgement call. In my book you find these affairs are selfish but can be motivated by low self esteem which softens some of the blow.

Here to you have to question how your husband viewed the affair at the time. Was he too looking to be selfish?

3) Finally there are personal issue affairs. These are parties that committ adultery due to some deep seeded emotional issues. Some my have drug or alcohol dependency. Others maybe sex addicts. But I suspect the largest number of this group has some type of abuse or neglect issues.

In large parts their affair is an extension of the unhealthy emotional state they are in.

Every WS's partner had a different type of an affair so I don't think you can generalize the OW without knowing what type of affair they were trying to have.

Also like it or not you have to determine what type of an affair did your husband see himself having.

Finally WHO initiated the affair? Who pursued whom?

If the OW was heavily courted by the MM then this counters any claim that the OW was trying to breakup a marriage.

So KAT the 64,000 question did your husband pursue or startup the affair or did the OW pursue him?

Did he give in to her overtures or did she give in to his overtures?

I just would like to give "my two cents" into this thread for what it's worth.

The affair that I had, not once did the OW ask or inquire about my wife and family's health. Not once!!!

I believe she was so into herself and in reality out of touch with anyone but her own pleasures!!!
She really didn't care about anyone but herself!!!

I honestly believe now that woman having affairs do not think about the repercussions or what happens if something goes wrong in the end.

I am guilty, yes I am but when I look back at the entire affair.....all it was....was a fantasy!!!

Randy,

I just would like to give "my two cents" into this thread for what it's worth.

The affair that I had, not once did the OW ask or inquire about my wife and family's health. Not once!!!

I believe she was so into herself and in reality out of touch with anyone but her own pleasures!!!
She really didn't care about anyone but herself!!!

I honestly believe now that woman having affairs do not think about the repercussions or what happens if something goes wrong in the end.

She did not care about your wife or your children. That is that point.. they were nothing to her. Yes she was selfish and totally into herself. That is why people have affairs. And quite honestly Randy you were at the same place. Who did you care about other than yourself when you were having an affairs. And you too did not think about the repercussions of your actions at the time.

Men and women, OP and WS, are in the same place emotionally. They don’t give a hang about anyone put themselves.

Tew,

As for your post about your issues with his child. They are not your issues. You are not a parent to this child. You are her father’s live in. That he gave you a power of attorney so you could take care of all her medical and legal needs is appalling. You have not rights. If I were the child’s mother I’d take that power of attorney you have to court to see if I could get a judge to override it. Who on earth are you to second-guess her parenting?

You know why his ex-w talks to you about the kids? Because it seems that MM#1 lets you do everything. She knows that he’s not taking any responsibility for his child. You don’t believe me? Leave him to his own devices for a while and see how much he does. When he does not have mommy Tew to pick up all the loose ends and make child rearing easy how much of a dad will he be? About as much as he is to the 11-year-old son he’s never parented. Child support does not a father make.

What would I have him do? Start being her father and not leaving everything up to you who has become her nanny.

I do recall your story very well, and reread your thread from January 2002

Your story about your affair with him and his marriage has changed over time. Sure the basic story is there but some things do not jive… like your saying that you cut off physical contact when you found out about the pregnancy.. but you did that (by your accounts) in June of 2001. His was born between March and June 2001 (you said she is almost 2 years old now). So you did not end your physical relationship with him until after you got involved with MM#2 and after his child was born. Here is the time line I put together from your posts….

2000, some time before August - affair (physical and emotional) with MM#1 began. Though you said it stared in Sept, if he gave you money for your home in august obviously you had a relationship with him before September. He also paid your phone bill, your daughter’s ballet lessons, bought you and your children lavish gifts (like $800 worth of cloths for your daughter on one trip to the mall).

August 2000 – MM#1 gave you money to help you buy a home.
September 2000 – The affair started (how many starts did this affair have?)

Approx March/June 2001 – MM#1’s daughter is born. (on May 25, 2002 you said that she is almost 2 years old.) So you were physically involved with MM#1 through the pregnancy and birth even though you now say otherwise.)

April 2001 – emotional affair with MM#2 began
June 2001 - physical affair with MM#2 began
June 2001 - physical affair with MM#1 put on hiatus, but emotional affair continued.
January 16, 2002 – MM#1 entered your home uninvited at approx. 11pm. He scared you when he appeared uninvited in your bathroom, while you were bathing, carrying your 8 yr old daughter. He had gone into her bedroom, where she was sleeping and woke her up.

This is the same 8 year old who he bought $800 dollars worth of cloths for and paid for her ballet lessons monthly. All this while he had his own daughter at home? I am fairly well off.. yet I’ve never spent $800 on cloths for a child. As a supervisor at a prison, he does not make enough money to blow like this. There is something really wrong with this and therefore something really wrong with his relationship with your daughter. If he had bought you $800 worth of clothing it would not hit me as so odd.

At this point you said that you’d get a restraining or order against MM#1 but he had his good side.. sure like still paying bills for you.

January 2002 – MM#1 moves in with you (you said you’ve been under the same roof for 16 months. So I counted back)

September 2002 –cruse with MM#2 and then some time after that you went no contact with him because, in you words is he a cake eater type. This means he wanted to stay married and keep you on the side. So you broke up with him because he would not leave his wife. Not because the relationship was wrong to start with.

March 2002 – last contact the MM#2

In your January 2002 thread you never mentioned all this stuff about marrying too quickly, his being with her only to help her with her pregnancy, or that their marriage was over for both of them before it started etc etc. Not once did you mention that she was having affairs or any of the other stuff you now use to justify your affair. Seems like a rewrite of history. That is normal for WS and OP. It helps them live with themselves. Since we do not have his wife here to verify the bad points of their relationship, since WS/OP tend to destroy the reality so much I cannot give any credence to anything you say about the state of their marriage. Remember that WS tend to lie up a storm to both the OP and the BS. And remember that a man who would cheat on his wife from the beginning of their marriage is not a reliable person. I simply believe very little of what you say.

You have told us enough to discredit both the MM and yourself. You see the punishment for lying is that no one believes you. And having an affair is one of the worst types of lies that exist. When a person changes there story it’s hard to believe anything they say after that.

I feel very sorry for you Tew. You are spending so much energy and time on a man who is more then willing to let you carry the load of raising his child and so much more. Then you spend so much effort justifying your actions of your affair/relationship with him. A lesson I learned a long time ago, never make excuses for any man. And never do anything for a guy over 5 years old that they can do for themselves. You are not his mommy, you are his girl friend.

What a mess you got yourself into. And worse yet, what a mess you have put your children in the middle of. For the sake of your children and his child I hope you two work it out but I don’t see that happening in the long haul.

I’m not going to waste my time answering the rest of your remarks/questions because you will simply make up more reasons why your choice to have an affair and help tear a marriage apart was honorable and wonderful. I just don’t by it.

I am confident in my own moral compass though. I think that your moral compass broke a long time ago. You said that you had these affairs ‘cause you were too busy at work and with your kids to meet single guys.. What an excuse.

You know Tew, I was involved with a MM man years ago.. I thought he was getting a divorce. He’d filed the papers, etc. But after a year it turned out that he’d gone back to his wife. He and his friends kept the truth from me. The day I found out about it I dropped him. Why? Because he lied to me. He lied to his wife. He was still married and had gone back to live with his wife. I have no need in my life for a man who lies to me and worse yet to lies to the woman he married. What I learned from that relationship is that until the ink is dry on the divorce papers the couple is still married. A huge number of couple who file for divorce never go through with it. There are so many men out there, I did not need one badly enough to compromise myself. So I’m not just some BS here spewing out BS. I’ve a clue.

<small>[ May 31, 2003, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: zorweb ]</small>

zorweb,

As for your post about your issues with his child. They are not your issues. You are not a parent to this child. You are her father&#8217;s live in. That he gave you a power of attorney so you could take care of all her medical and legal needs is appalling. You have not rights. If I were the child&#8217;s mother I&#8217;d take that power of attorney you have to court to see if I could get a judge to override it. Who on earth are you to second-guess her parenting?

Where have I second guessed her parenting? I would never do that as she is HER daughter. Unless God strikes us dead before Sept we will marry and I will be this child's step-mother. In the meantime, even though I am not her "parent", I am parenting her. And I already have rights. I am named in the Parenting Plan on file at the courthouse. It is signed with her, his, and Judge's signature. It was part of their divorce agreement.

I have the right to "transport said child required in the parenting and facilitating of visitation of said child" the right to "seek routine and emergency medical care and give consent to any and all emergency medical treatment or surgeries needed for said child" the right to "touch, hold, carry, transport, dress, feed, make purchases for, discipline, and administer medications (prescribed or over-the-counter) to said child".

Whereas she (XW) is not to "restrained and enjoined from making negative comments about me in said child's presence and shall NOT allow ANY other third party to make comments about me in said child's presence" she is also "restrained and enjoined from attempting to coerce said child into negative or abusive behaviot toward me" or "attempting to alienate said child from me" and "shall not attempt to foster a lack of love or interfere in the bonding of said child toward me in any way whatsoever".

The power of attorney is also legit. I drew it up as it was needed as he works 2 jobs and as we are not married it is a legal document that allows me to share, receive, and sign documents/information about both kids in communications with the doctors, teachers, coaches, courts, CS agency, IRS, etc.

You know why his ex-w talks to you about the kids?

kid - 1

Because it seems that MM#1 lets you do everything. She knows that he&#8217;s not taking any responsibility for his child. You don&#8217;t believe me?

No, as I live with him. How much more responsibility could he take? We have her 3 out of 7 days. He pays CS. He has gone to Court even before the D to ensure his access to daughter. He also has went to Court to ensure access to his son. Just because he never married the son's mother and divorced his daughter's mother DOES NOT mean he is not an active parent to them. I am not talking about CS. As I have stated before when my daughter's father was paying CS he was still a lousy father. However, FMM is an active, hands-on daddy. Bathes, feeds, and potty trains daughter. He helps her brush her teeth. She can count to 5 and sing the barney song thanks to him. Even though he worked from 6 p.m. to 6 a.m. yesterday and has since gone back at 6 p.m. tonight he still cooked her breakfast. He also went swimming with her in the pool for an hour. He rocked her to sleep and was late to work in doing so.

Leave him to his own devices for a while and see how much he does. When he does not have mommy Tew to pick up all the loose ends and make child rearing easy how much of a dad will he be?

Gee, aren't that what partners are supposed to do, help each other?

About as much as he is to the 11-year-old son he&#8217;s never parented. Child support does not a father make.

He was active in his son's life for years before I came along. It was dictated however by the whims of the BM. I have since helped him acquire his legal rights as well as a visitation schedule. Yes, he was ignorant in not knowing he had legal rights. However, he always was a part of his son's life. We went to his son's graduation from 5th grade last week and took him to lunch - we were the only ones who went for him. This was after another 12 hour all night shift. FMM had to rush to shower, change, and be there as it started at 9. We got back in town at 2:15 p.m. and he had to go back to work again at 6 p.m. for another 12 hours. We were the only 2 in attendance for his last 2 parent teacher meetings - even though we live well over an hour away. We also hosted a pizza party at his school for his class and my daughter's school for her class.

What would I have him do? Start being her father and not leaving everything up to you who has become her nanny.

He doesn't leave everything up to me. He did not have the know how to file and prepare his legal papers and petitions. Nor did he have the extra money to waste on an atty. If he had hired an atty and the atty secured him the same schedule would you consider that he did that for himself? He wants to be more one on one w/ daughter - that is why we requested the change in days. Would you rather he hire a sitter when he worked (as parents are often forced to do when they work) rather than allow me, his partner, to help him? If I am able to do his legal and assist in the care of daughter why shouldn't he allow me to do so? Let me ask you this, in a M where the daddy works and the mother stays at home, is he any less of a daddy because the W keeps the child while he is at work? Is he leaving it to her rather than taking care of the child himself?

I do recall your story very well, and reread your thread from January 2002

Your story about your affair with him and his marriage has changed over time. Sure the basic story is there but some things do not jive&#8230; like your saying that you cut off physical contact when you found out about the pregnancy.. but you did that (by your accounts) in June of 2001.

I stated that I broke PA when he went home. I cut off all sexual relations after beginning PA w/ MM #2 in June of 2001. We still hugged, kissed, etc. in the interim.

2000, some time before August - affair (physical and emotional) with MM#1 began.

No. it was in September of 2000 EA began when we started the same shift.

Though you said it stared in Sept, if he gave you money for your home in august obviously you had a relationship with him before September.

The place was rented in Oct (going by memory). He moved in it then went back home in early December -2000. I moved into it in Jan of 2001.

He also paid your phone bill, your daughter&#8217;s ballet lessons, bought you and your children lavish gifts (like $800 worth of cloths for your daughter on one trip to the mall).

That was in 2001.

August 2000 &#8211; MM#1 gave you money to help you buy a home.
September 2000 &#8211; The affair started (how many starts did this affair have?)

Approx March/June 2001 &#8211; MM#1&#8217;s daughter is born.

Nope, in August - she and I share the same bday and we are both Leos.

(on May 25, 2002 you said that she is almost 2 years old.) So you were physically involved with MM#1 through the pregnancy and birth even though you now say otherwise.)

No, I wasn't. Since you are such a great researcher you should see that from my posts or those at gloryb.

April 2001 &#8211; emotional affair with MM#2 began
June 2001 - physical affair with MM#2 began

Correct.

June 2001 - physical affair with MM#1 put on hiatus, but emotional affair continued.
January 16, 2002 &#8211; MM#1 entered your home uninvited at approx. 11pm. He scared you when he appeared uninvited in your bathroom, while you were bathing, carrying your 8 yr old daughter. He had gone into her bedroom, where she was sleeping and woke her up.

Yes, true.

This is the same 8 year old who he bought $800 dollars worth of cloths for and paid for her ballet lessons monthly. All this while he had his own daughter at home?

Yes.

I am fairly well off.. yet I&#8217;ve never spent $800 on cloths for a child. As a supervisor at a prison, he does not make enough money to blow like this. There is something really wrong with this and therefore something really wrong with his relationship with your daughter. If he had bought you $800 worth of clothing it would not hit me as so odd.

So, now he is a pervert? He hadn't filed his taxes in forever and the money for clothes was part of refunds he got, thanks to me. I got him his 1997, 1998, 1999 refund. He lost the one from 96 as he waited to long to file.

At this point you said that you&#8217;d get a restraining or order against MM#1 but he had his good side.. sure like still paying bills for you.

I was getting $1,000.00 per month CS. He paid phone bill as he wanted me to have a separate line. My daughter's lessons were and are only 52 per month - his gift to her.

January 2002 &#8211; MM#1 moves in with you (you said you&#8217;ve been under the same roof for 16 months. So I counted back)

I said almost 16 months. It was Feb - 2002.

September 2002 &#8211;cruse with MM#2 and then some time after that you went no contact with him because, in you words is he a cake eater type. This means he wanted to stay married and keep you on the side. So you broke up with him because he would not leave his wife. Not because the relationship was wrong to start with.

I never would have been w/ him long term. Too many faults. He was very superficial. very appearance oriented. Spoiled. not a good dad.

March 2002 &#8211; last contact the MM#2

Yes, his brother was murdered and he called me to talk. I went NC to improve relationship w/ MM #1 as I knew I was finally ready to give myself to him completely.

In your January 2002 thread you never mentioned all this stuff about marrying too quickly, his being with her only to help her with her pregnancy, or that their marriage was over for both of them before it started etc etc.

Well since you are such the researcher I post at gloryb as femalesargeant. I stated all that there and on here as well.

Not once did you mention that she was having affairs or any of the other stuff you now use to justify your affair.

We didn't know of them then. We found out about one when she went out of state w/ her OM for a weekend. She told us the rest later.
Seems like a rewrite of history. That is normal for WS and OP. It helps them live with themselves. Since we do not have his wife here to verify the bad points of their relationship, since WS/OP tend to destroy the reality so much I cannot give any credence to anything you say about the state of their marriage.

Well this is an internet board - rarely do we get all sides on one story. I don't know your recovery is going great, however, I do take your word fo it. I have been posting at gloryb since Sept of 2000. I often wrote of the guilt etc. I also wrote about the shortness of the courtship. I also wrote how he had moved out prior to December 2000. I can assure you I have not created posts for almost 2 years to pull the wool over zorweb's eyes. I also do change facts a little - dates, sexes, times, etc. for privacy purposes. Nor do I need to absolve myself of the guilt. Yes, I used to feel guilty. I no longer do. Nor am I seeking an approval stamp for my relationship from any BSs. I am here to share, learn, and grow. I know the EMR was wrong. I will not do it again. I know FMM may cheat on me. I know he may never trusy me. I know marriages become complacent. I believe MB is a great site. I use it to enhance our relationship. I also benefit from reading others' stories.

Remember that WS tend to lie up a storm to both the OP and the BS. And remember that a man who would cheat on his wife from the beginning of their marriage is not a reliable person. I simply believe very little of what you say.

Yes, I agree. My ols posts from gloryb where centered along that theme. For example, many OP would start threads revolving on issue of whether MM were sleeping w/ their wives. MM #1 told me when they stopped. he even told me when they started sleeping in separate bedrooms. As I told the OW I never believed him. Yes, I thought he was still sleeping w/ W. In Feb her and I had a conversation and I asked her if it was true. She stated yes. I was shocked. I really had not believed him. I also asked her why he had so much free time. He was not telling the truth to her about where he was going. That was one of my initial worries. Would he run out all the time on me? However, he has proven himself trustworthy and a homebody. That does not make me better than her. He and I are just compatible. It is your choice not to believe me, but why would I lie? I have been at gloryb and MB for almost 2 years. It kind of defeats the purpose of a support board if someone is not honest in their postings.

You have told us enough to discredit both the MM and yourself. You see the punishment for lying is that no one believes you. And having an affair is one of the worst types of lies that exist. When a person changes there story it&#8217;s hard to believe anything they say after that.

It would be foolish to post all the facts and all the details of one's life. My story and my life are accurately represented here and at gloryb. I have always gone out of my way to reveal my identity and hx as an OW. I also posted my other screen names.

I feel very sorry for you Tew. You are spending so much energy and time on a man who is more then willing to let you carry the load of raising his child and so much more. Then you spend so much effort justifying your actions of your affair/relationship with him. A lesson I learned a long time ago, never make excuses for any man. And never do anything for a guy over 5 years old that they can do for themselves. You are not his mommy, you are his girl friend.

I don't try to justify our relationship. It is what it is.

What a mess you got yourself into. And worse yet, what a mess you have put your children in the middle of. For the sake of your children and his child I hope you two work it out but I don&#8217;t see that happening in the long haul.

Time will tell.

I&#8217;m not going to waste my time answering the rest of your remarks/questions because you will simply make up more reasons why your choice to have an affair and help tear a marriage apart was honorable and wonderful. I just don&#8217;t by it.

I never stated it was wondeful or honorable.

I am confident in my own moral compass though. I think that your moral compass broke a long time ago.

I am confident in mine as well.

You know Tew, I was involved with a MM man years ago.. I thought he was getting a divorce. He&#8217;d filed the papers, etc. But after a year it turned out that he&#8217;d gone back to his wife. He and his friends kept the truth from me. The day I found out about it I dropped him. Why? Because he lied to me. He lied to his wife. He was still married and had gone back to live with his wife.

Yet, it was ok to remain in a relationship w/ him for 12 months while he was still married?

I have no need in my life for a man who lies to me and worse yet to lies to the woman he married.

So, for 12 months she knew he was involved w/ you?

What I learned from that relationship is that until the ink is dry on the divorce papers the couple is still married. A huge number of couple who file for divorce never go through with it. There are so many men out there, I did not need one badly enough to compromise myself.

But, you did for 12 months. He was not forthcoming about M to me. he came clean quickly and I kept seeing him as I believed his comments about their R. he followed through. He moved out. He is now D and we are happy.

zorweb,
I respect your opinions and I don't think I have been disrespectful to you. I will just agree to disagree with you. tew

<small>[ May 31, 2003, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: tewjtm ]</small>

The Lady ~
I just wanted to say thanks for your response. Part of what's so hard for me is realizing that there may be no WHY to this whole thing. I may never really know WHY it happened, just that a selfish woman and my stupid husband hurt me very badly.

Your post put into words all the jumbled up things going through my head!! So thanks!!