If couples are willing to play the game of revenge A's then they better be just as willing to accept the consequences of it. You can't play Russian roulette without being willing to accept the possibility of you ending up dead, even on the first pull of the trigger.

Guernica,

If he has different morals/values than me, then we can't make it work. Having differences with your spouse is one thing, but if we differ on values, that's too big of an obstacle to overlook.

To the others: I feel I entered this marriage under a cloud of deceit. I gave my (then) fiance the option to let us get stuff out of our systems before we got married. He claimed at the time that he had nothing to get out of his system. Of course he didn't---he had already done it! I extended the offer, he had taken it before I offered, and didn't give me the same opportunity.

I can't move forward until things are equal between us. I want a marriage based on equality and honesty. If I don't do this, I will always feel superior to him. I'll probably bring it up over and over again. And if I get into a temptation situation, I will probably go for it, just because I'll still have some anger inside of me, however much buried. Before we start all over again, we need to start as equals. Not with him as errant husband and me on a pedestal.

Another part is the agony he has put me through. Unless you've been cheated on, you have no idea how it feels. He has no idea how I feel, cause he hasn't felt it. I feel that going through the pain will deter him from ever hurting me again, should he find himself in a situation where he is tempted to stray.

So it's important for me to get this over with. After the deed is done, my husband and I are going to do some major soul-searching, and ask ourselves first, and then each other what we want out of marriage, what we expect from the other, what we can and can't live with for the rest of our lives. I wouldn't waste my time with a man who wants forgiveness for something he cannot forgive.

Being that my marriage was based on deceit, I consider it to be null at this point. If we can get through this, we can start from scratch and build a real marriage based on honesty.

It doesn't matter to me whether you respond to the questions I put out to you ('What happens if it becomes more than that? Is your H then going to be entitled to have another A to even out the number of times you had your fun?) for they are meant to be rhetorical.

You are hung up on the idea of 'equality' and yet you forget that what you may deem as equal may not be the same to another person.

But as long as you are willing to pay the price of your marriage ending in divorce, then do as you best see fit.

TooMuchCoffeeMan:

You said,
"You are hung up on the idea of 'equality' and yet you forget that what you may deem as equal may not be the same to another person."

What other person? My husband? He has agreed that this is what we need to do. He is anxious for me to get it over with so we can start to build a real marriage. The only person whose definition of equality means something to me is my husband, and his definition is the same as mine.

As for the rhetorical questions:

It's a one-time deal and everyone involved knows it.

My husband understands that he had his one-time deal, and I will have mine.

As for running the risk of divorce, I am well aware of that. It's make it or break it time. I'd rather end the marriage than have a crappy marriage where I'm always wondering, always thinking about it, always harping on it. If he can't forgive me for doing the same thing he did, he's not worth it.

Orange,

Just for sake of clarity, this isn't about "leveling" the field. It is because you plain and simple want revenge. Your H is probably agreeing to this because he really doesn't have a choice. You WILL make his life H*** if you don't get what you want. So he agrees.

So let's consider this "leveling" you are going to do. He DID NOT HAVE AN AFFAIR. You have to be married to have an affair or the partner has to be married. He was NOT married to you, had not taken vows to you.

You WILL be married and you will be breaking your vows. Nevermind what he did, it seems you promise before family and God mean little. You will be the one that strayed from the MARRIAGE. So the only way to "level" the field is to divorce, then before you remarry, you have a ONS. Does that work for you?

You then something I thought interesting </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Another part is the agony he has put me through. Unless you've been cheated on, you have no idea how it feels. He has no idea how I feel, cause he hasn't felt it. I feel that going through the pain will deter him from ever hurting me again, should he find himself in a situation where he is tempted to stray.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It isn't deterring you from doing it. So why would the pain deter him? You clearly didn't learn a darn thing from the pain you went through.

Further, he has stayed faithful to his vows, you won't be. Marriage isn't going steady Orange, it is commitment and vows. He has met his, and you are going to violate yours. Which suggests the person with the real problem in understanding marriage vows is YOU. You would debase yourself for revenge. Cool <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Your sense of "level" and fair play is going to continue to cause huge problems in the marriage, and clearly he won't be able to believe a single PROMISE YOU make. Go get your revenge Orange, but I think you may find that YOU are the person that gets hurt. You are the one losing your morality. You are the one breaking YOUR vows. You are the one, that isn't gracious enough to accept his apology. You are the one that goes for the lowest common denominator in human behavior. Have you booked a spot on the Jerry Springer show yet? I am serious.

By the way, the example of "level" the playing field here was while that couple was NOT married and not even a couple. It was not done in a marriage.

I find it interesting that you feel your H has "enthusiastically" agreed for you to go screw someone, when in fact you have given him no alternative except divorce. Nice work on the marriage building there. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Please think again about this. You ARE going to hurt your H and I know that is what you want to do. But, you are also selling yourself down the river in the process. You are worth more than that.

Think, carefully Orange.

JL

This smells funny to me.

Orange,

I'm a little worried about you. What you're proposing to do is very self destructive. Don't you think you;re in enough pain already? I think you're in plenty of pain which is why you're acting out with making plans for a revenge A.

Instead, why don't you make a list of caring, nuturing things you can do for yourself and actually DO them when you feel tempted to hurt yourself emotionally.

You're new here, so it's hard to imagine what I'm about to say; but don't take any action that would not represent your best self. A way to determine your best actions is to imagine 10 years down the road, how you will feel about what you do now, looking back.

It was thoughts like these that kept me from acting out in anger and hurt. Whew it was close a few times, but when I felt out of control and tempted to do as you're thinking, I instead was able to be extra kind to me.

I am relieved that I don't have anything to regret. What you're talking about will only make a bad situation worse; and believe me after being on the forum all this time I've seen alot worse.

Save yourself additional agony! Vent here instead; we understand your pain. Blessings, CSue

<small>[ June 17, 2003, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: CSue ]</small>

Very well put Just Learning, but I'm afraid that she already had her mind all made up before she started this thread. I just hope that she doesn't end up regretting her decision.

<small>[ June 17, 2003, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Coffeeman,

I think you are right. The "logic" of this is sort of amazing. If he enthusiastically agrees, she won't get the revenge she expects because he "wants" her to do this. If he isn't in agreement with her choice, she simply brakes her vows, does to him what she claims was almost too painful to stand.

I think reality is either she has made up her mind, and really doesn't care what he does. She is a troll. Or she is so messed up, that really thinks that revenge is the only way.

In all cases except the troll she will lose, and for sure in all cases we wasted our time. Which then makes one wonder why she is here. She clearly didn't want advice.

Oh Well, there is no accounting for... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

JL

JL:

Your words: "Have you booked a spot on the Jerry Springer show yet? I am serious." remind me of a Peter Gabriel song about such programs. I quote it in my PS, below. Pretty harsh, but the likes of Jerry Springer deserve it.

Orange: Do you wish 2 grow from your experience, or perpe2ate the hurt in a never-ending chain of revenge acts??

-2long.

P.S. "The Barry Williams Show" by Peter Gabriel

"Let’s go

One man at the window.
One girl at the bar.
Saw that look of recognition,
When they know just who you are.
I seen you on the TV.
I seen you on that show.
You make the people crazy
And then you let them go.

Before the show we calm them.
We sympathise, we care.
And the hostile folk we keep apart
‘Til the red light says ‘on air’.
Did you see our leather lovers,
All tied up to the chair?
Did you catch those child molesters?
No one else goes there!

What a show! The Barry Williams Show!
What a show!
Dysfunctional excess
Is all it took for my success.
The greater pain that they endure,
The more you know the show will score.
Showtime!

Got the reputation of a surgeon
‘Cos they cannot feel the cut.
It looks so very simple
But it really is an art.
They call our studio ‘The Hospital’
Making money from the sick.
We let people be themselves.
There is no other trick.

*‘My lover stole my girlfriend’
*‘Keep beating up my ex’
*‘I want to kill my neighbour’
*‘My daughter’s selling sex’
*‘My s/m lover hurt me’
*‘My girl became a man’
‘*I love my daughter’s rapist
*‘My life’s gone down the pan’

What a show! The Barry Williams Show!
The Barry Williams Show!
Dysfunctional excess
Is all it took for my success.
And when the punches start to fly,
The ratings always read so high.
Showtime!

‘That girl has got no scruples’
Not a wrinkle on her face.
You would not believe the plot she conceived
So they’d let her take my place!
Well, no man is an island.
No man is a sea.
But this display of emotion
Is all but drowning me.

What a show! Oh, what a show.
On my show, The Barry Williams Show!
It’s my show!
What a show!
Dysfunctional excess
Is all it took for my success.

The best TV you’ve ever seen,
Where people say the things that they really mean.
I hear my name, i hear them roar
For the one more time i take the floor.
Just one more Barry Williams Show
We’re gonna take you where you want to go!
Showtime!

Come on down!
Come on down!"

To Just Learning:

No, we were not married at the time. That little fact does not change anything. We were engaged to be married, and we felt married at that time. You don't have to be married to someone to cheat on them.

The vows we took were written by us, and uttered only in front of each other. We did not take vows before God and Man. We took them before each other, alone, privately. The legal part was done separately, and was much less important to us than our private vows to each other. We frequently update and amend the vows. Which is what we'll be doing again very soon.

I said our vows under a cloud of deceit, as I said before. We want to start over again, and build a real marriage based on honesty. He understands my need to feel equal. Someone here suggested that I was "hung up" on equality. Yeah, well, so what? What's wrong with wanting a marriage to be based on equality? Equality has always been important to both of us. That's why we said our vows to each other on the Vernal Equinox.

A quote from someone here:

"If he enthusiastically agrees, she won't get the revenge she expects because he "wants" her to do this."

Duh. It's not about revenge. That's not what I'm aiming for here.

One of the things my husband admires about me is that I don't take any bull****. We are taking a different path than the others on this board. There isn't just one way to fix things. We're doing it our way. And I think it's a simple, straightforward way. Get it over with and move on. Which is what we intend to do. I don't want to wind up agonizing on message boards for the rest of my life. I want to achieve something better than what we had before. And we both believe that this is the way to do it.

If that is the case then why did you come here and start a thread titled 'what should I do?' when you already had your mind made up?

Orange,

Why are you here? You know all. You have decided to extract your pound of flesh. Your H agrees that you should commit adultery. You don't think marriage is different from going steady, or even being engaged.

Why are you here? What possible help could a Marriage Building site be to someone who figures that making everything "equal" solves her problems?

I am sorry but I just don't understand your purpose here.

JL

Go ahead and get your roll in the hay. As you are laying in bed with a man other than your husband I am sure that you will feel equal and good about yourself. You have serious issues and need help.

I came to this board initially out of a need to relate to other people in my situation. I got a few responses, and started talking to my husband, and came up with what we feel will solve this mess we're in. We have gotten extremely close to each other in the past few days, and are excited about going to this music festival that is being held at the same place my husband and I met, at another festival, almost two years ago. We have a strong feeling that we are going to renew ourselves and really start to bond on a whole new level, a level that is stronger than our old level. We're going to leave all the ugliness behind. We're going to "smudge" our bedroom before we leave with sage, and get rid of all the bad energy that we've carried. He understands why I have to do what I have to do, and I hope I'll understand why he did what he had to do after I do what I have to do. We both feel that equality is important. We're going to start again, the right way this time. We both have a good feeling that it's going to be better than ever. We'll both understand why honesty is so important.

So then someone on the board asked how I was doing. So I gave an update, and almost everyone was totally against my plan. I started to realize that this site advocates some multi-step plan with stuff like Plan A/ Plan B, weird abbreviations like OW and H. It's as though this Marriage Builders TM is your Bible or something. I thought I was posting on an open-minded board with people with different takes on things. I had no idea that this was a board that ascribed to one solution to this problem: The Marriage Builders Way. Or hit the highway.

I can't believe someone would be so inflammatory as to call me a "troll". What's up with that? I'm not a "troll", I'm a person in pain.

Well, the Marriage Builder's Way seems to be this rigid, long-term program, and everyone's still having problems. Someone referred to "Plan A, Day 100." Huh? And then do you still have to go to Plan B? Gee, how much is the Book? My husband and I are going to get this cleared up in 3 weeks. OUR way. And everything's going to be wonderful. I'll keep you updated.

I like your thinking, orange
hope everything will go JUST the way you are planning now, and you'll get a new health base to go on with your marriage

I feel similar about this site too

it really helped me!!!
not that I followed its rules (will not), but...
reading all these posts, nice people in pain (as I was), for SOOO LONG PERIOD coping with marital problems, 'surviving affairs'... made me wonder... how to cut off this s*it out of my mind/life - for much shorter period of time...
I don't want to suffer in this life, neither my son, he needs my smile, and my health! (imagine how many people spend their energy on being frustrated, sad, unhappy, doings plan X and Y just for their spouses... and not on their kids! - no way most of them have energy for both...)

rules... yes, must be rules... and YOU have to make them for your life!

I remember a girlfriend of mine, long time ago, filing for divorce (3 kids)
she tried for a couple of months, and stopped
we tried to make her try more, for kids (yeah right - another excuse for staying in the BAD marriage!) , telling her - he's going to change, is still young <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

she said - well, we are gonna divorce, I'll live happily with my kids without him, and if he changes - could come back to us (if I don't get married in the meantime <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

she really spent very nice following years and ended married with a guy who "deserves me" as she told me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> )

anyway, this site helped me a lot
to short period of suffering (nothing and nobody is worth it!), by finding my own way...to reconcile MYSELF (in the essence, that's all what matters...)

I do appreciate old MB timers here - their wish to help any newcomers
and I DO want all the best for them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

(will try not to post often... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )