This is a long story and the first time I have ever posted about it. But I am just now coming out of the "fog".

Four years ago, my husband confessed to an emotional affair. We sought counseling and began to build again on what I had thought was a darn good marriage.

I became very busy and let my normal health care slip by...only after a much put off Pap test did I discover that I might have an STD (HPV). When I told my husband this it was plain that he had not told me the entire truth...or really any truth.

HPV is the leading cause of cervical cancer and not knowing I had been exposed could have been life threatening. I did rant that he had spent more money protecting the computer from virus...than a buck for a condom.

Crushed I went into a black hole, mentally...I spent a few weeks not being able to move. He wanted counseling and knew that I was over the edge.

Four years ago we had Christian counseling...he had just returned from Promise Keepers. I felt betrayed by that so I selected a counselor that had a more secular background.

Now months later, I am still stunned and unable to comprehend this. He has asked me to consider the last 4 years and all he has done to prove he loves me. But the lies haunt me.

The STD test came back negative...but what if they had not?

He still has lied about some aspects...length of time, involvement, etc. Saying it was not to hurt me?

I do not know what to do next. I feel the last 6 years have been a lie, I don't respect him...but I am so used to loving him...we have known each other for so long. But is History enough?

The path to recovery is narrow, and his continued lies, rather than protecting you, as he said, have kept you off the path. The two best books on recovery from affairs, whether emotional or physical, that I know of are both written by Christians. One, Surviving an Affair, by Harley, is written without any references to God or the Bible, yet in my view is consistent with a Biblically-based approach, but you would never know that unless you familiar wiht the Bible. His advice is practical and effective. Dr. Harley always writes his books with men as the intended audience, and I have found his other books to be better than anything else I have read on marriage - and I have read of number of secular and Chritian books on the subject. One of the tenets of his approach to recovery is The Policy of Radical Honesty, which, if followed by your H, would have prevented you from ever having to experience the feelings of betrayal you now have over his dishonesty.

The other great book on the subject is "Torn Asunder", by Carder. It is explicitly Christian, and also places a heavy emphasis on the importance of honesty to affair recovery. I do dis-agree with the authors contention that the WS must feel the full depth of the BS's pain for recovery to work. While some degree of empathy is required, no one else ever REALLY knows EXACTLY how we feel, and efforts to make your H feel your pain are likely to be seen by him as a punishment. He may even think he deserves such punishment (and perhaps he does!), but you punishing him is not going to serve to help either of you through recovery.

My wife and I read BOTH of those books together, about 1 chapter at a sitting, and then we would discuss what we read, and fill out the questionnaires at the end of each chapter and in the appendix, and discuss them. There is a GREAT article at DearPeggy.com that you might want to print and share with your H: "Joseph's Letter".

The link in my signature line outlines the "narrow path to recovery" I referred to, and suggests tools to use along the way that we found helpful. Click and read, and if there were a few elements you have left out of your own path, you might want to consider adding them.

Good luck.

Oh yeah, you might want to point out to your husband that for many spouses, the pain of the affair is secondary to the pain of the dishonesty that accompanied it. Therefore, any continuing dishonesty is a continuation of a worse betrayal, or perhaps a continuation of the worst part of the betrayal. there is a saying that "Affairs do not cause divorce. Failing to deal with the conditions that led to the affair cause divorce." Your husbands's dishonesty is one of the conditions that led to his affair. If you want to recover completely, you must deal with his dishonesty by eliminating it. Ironically it is not until he is willing to tell you things that hurt you that you will begin to feel safe.

Very good advice...Thank you for compiling the information.

Yes, I am very aware of some of the sources you quoted. You see I worked in the CBA (Christian Bookseller's Assoc.) market...and most of those titles, I have read/marketed. These materials were the bread and butter of our marriage. Having done marriage retreats, Gary Smalley seminars, and as I mentioned earlier, my husband was a Promise Keeper. (*WAS???*)

All the concepts were there...that is why it is so difficult for me to see how he could pitch them out of his head. They were not in his heart...a vital connection? His work with the counselor now is on those questions.

The counselor seems to think that at this time the pain is too great for him to be honest with himself or with me. He has spent the last years trying to forget. However it is too fresh for me...when you have been in a happy relationship, it is so difficult to imagine this horrid thing.

When I hear that it is sterotypical for a man to be hyper-stressed in a career and find someone that gives nothing but "bale out talk"...that it often leads to a blinding selfish escape. But we were not typical...he knew the signs, he knew what sin was. He knew what made for a good relationship with me.

I am discouraged by all this chatter about "affair proofing" your marriage...there is no proof in my house that the wisdom given can prevent one.

Amazingly, I never knew. I saw him becoming more self centered. I saw a cold side to him. At times I felt he baited me to make me discouraged so he would have reason to forget about me to continue with this. I became cold also because the basic affirmations that I needed were not being given. But I never stopped trying...

The complex feelings I am having about living with someone who is capable of destroying me, our family, and faith and then thinking that we can just go on and "forgive"....do "happy things"...is a struggle.

And, then maybe all those things; me, our marrriage, and even our faith, were weak in the first place? It is a long road ahead.

Hi dustkitty,
I had to be checked for hpv also since the ow had cervical cancer a few years before the A with my husband. Very humilitating, thankfully negative. My faith was rocked by my husband's infidelity too and I have been shocked to find how weak it was! One of the many benefits God has brought. But,I remember immediately following d-day I felt lost, jaded, hard toward God and love. Slowly, I began to come back to a relationship with God and am actually thankful for this opportunity to have a more realistic perspective of my faith under fire. I am being tested and want to pass the test. James 1:12. Toughest thing I have EVER been through, but I know God is working to make it for my good. Trust in God, not your husband, not marriage, not love--only God is the faithful friend, and even when you can't feel Him, He is ever-present in your fiery trial, and understands everything you are thinking and going through. He knows firsthand the killing sting of betrayal. Keep the faith baby.

DK: I see our situations were somewhat different. I was unknowingly clueless about what made a good marriage, and thought that real Christians did not have affairs, and therefore my wife was not vulnerable to one. It is true that ANY Christian who is having an affair does not have a healthy fear of God - the Bible is quite clear that adulterer's will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. But, I have no doubt that it was only her relationsip with God that eventually brought her to the point where she confessed to and ended the affair (I did not discover it).

I have read a fair amount of Smalley material since DDay, and I think it is quite good. I think the Biblical concept of "Honor" underlies all his work, and that is also the fundamental principal which underlies Harley's approach.

However, if I had Read Smalley before I read Harley, I might have classed Smalley with all the other relatively worthless marriage books I have read, including those by Hartley, Morley, Dobson, and Grey. The problem with those books from my perspective is that: 1) all those authors confuse gender and role (I'm a SAHD), 2) their books all have about 15 things you are supposed to do to have a good marriage, but there is little discussion about which of them are really important (it seems I was doing the 12 least important things quite well), 3) They all talk about communication, but not what you need to communicate about, and 4) most of the problems they discuss are largely absent in a marriage between two conflict avoiders like my wife and I.

Harley, by contrast, prioritizes those 15 things by totally ignoring the 12 relatively unimportant ones, and only talking about the three most important things - Care, Protection, and Conflict Resolution. He does not discuss communication at all as goal, but only as a tool to be used in service of providing effective Care, Protection, and Conflict Resolution. He treats honesty and time together the same way - they are relevant only in that they are necessary to provide Care, Protection, and to comply with the POJA. He gets around the gender/role confusion issue by providing questionnaires that give you specific information on what your spouse need and want, instead of saying things like "women want" and "men want". Because this last issue was a huge one for us, if we had read Harley's books without taking the questionnaires, I might have classed his books with all the others, too.

Now, from your perspective, I can see how Harley's approach to affairs might be problematic, because he takes the position, or at least seems to take the position, that it is problems in a marriage, particularly unmet emotional needs, that lead to affairs. Unmet EN's do not cause affairs, they cause lousy marriages. If you read Harley thoroughly and carefully, he does not say unmet EN's cause affairs, either, though it is so common a misconception among his readers that I would say he should do some re-writing of his material. Affairs are entirely the responsibility of those involved, and the reasons vary. I liked Torn Asunder because it got at those other reasons much better than Harley's SAA.

Our MC worked w/ Bill Harley for 8 years, and he had a very different perspective than Bill on this issue, because, according to him, in about 40% of men's affairs unmet EN's had very little to do with it. Yes, there were usually unmet EN's in their marriages, because no marriage is perfect. But, having the wife find out about and meet his most important EN's did not stop the affairs from re-kindling or stop the husband from having another. Harley is aware of this, which is why his plan for recovery is a lot more complicated than: 1.) Take the EN questionaire. 2.) Meet your husbands EN's. Our MC said that in his opinion, for that 40%, if the wife had been meeting the husband's top 5 EN's PERFECTLY, the husband still would have had the affair. If you want to learn more, read "The State of Affairs", by Todd Mulliken particularly the chapter on "The Double Life Man".

How does this match your view?

<small>[ June 10, 2003, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

You both are great...perspective from someone who has faced something like this has more depth than all the "advice" from "experts" that have just studied case history/theory. (In fact, in Harley's opening statements on this website, his comment about his wife killing him if he ever had an affair so turned me off...don't become an expert on Spain if you have never visited Madrid?)

There seems to be vast schools of thought on marriage made perfect...and what are the components. Smalley's work made us aware of our different personality traits and the value of gender differences. Taught tolerance and appreciation. However, never really addresses how to walk in the other's shoes...which is needed to be able to have true compassion.

The titles that tell the genders that they are "wired" different...can give weak spouses the go ahead to feel that they can't help but fall victim to the negative sides of how they "just are".

But all of that is mote if the brain and the heart are not functioning correctly. Is it insanity that makes someone block out everything? That was my biggest question…how can all of that, the total saturated goals of one person in their entire dealings with life…faith, family and character be pitched?

I have told my husband….he could have lost his job, and I would have understood. He could have cheated on his taxes and I would have understood. He could have a fistfight and I would have understood. All these actions my be dishonest, violent or the result of poor decisions, but something that makes rubble of our entire lives and souls is incomprehensible?

I told my therapist yesterday that I could not imagine him; the therapist, going outside and upon seeing a kitten, kick it. Just as I could never imagine that, my husband would do something so outside his perceived Character. I thought that if he had found me not meeting his needs we would at least be separated before he began looking elsewhere.

Which leads me to believe your MC comment that 40% of men would still have an affair even if they were in decent marriages. It is the nature of the beast; no amount of awareness of the danger will overcome the allure of a heightened level of existence, reckless behaviors, etc. Massaged egos and massaged sex, act as opiates on the brain.

Having been very very good at massaging his ego and a very good sex partner…I do believe I made him addicted to having a hyper-serving of that in his life. When he expected me to continue to dish this out in abnormal portions and gave me nothing that I really needed in return, my disappointment showed. He went looking for another diner to dish it out for him. Ironically, any one that would have an affair with a married man would have to be so needy and depleted themselves that propping up the man’s ego would be soon impossible! (Have the spouses that have had affairs ever listened to how the OP sounds when they talk about their no-good spouse? Don’t they hear that venom? Don’t they see they are dealing with a person so capable of hate? Do they think that another combination of people is all it takes to overcome their failings?)

So at this stage, I am stepping back and looking at all the aspects. At first, I thought it could destroy me. It has destroyed the pedestal I put my husband on. I see him as “just a man”…I am looking to see if I can live with that. True reconciliation would mean him accepting that he is just that and me loving him just as he is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Having been very very good at massaging his ego and a very good sex partner…I do believe I made him addicted to having a hyper-serving of that in his life. When he expected me to continue to dish this out in abnormal portions and gave me nothing that I really needed in return, my disappointment showed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This comment highlights a difference between what Smalley says and what Harley says. I have heard Smalley say somehting to the effect that we should have sacrificial love for our spouses, or that we should sacrifice for our spouses. Harley says we should not, unless we are enthusiastic about the "sacrifice" (at which point it isn't really a sacrifice, is it?). Anyway, I read Harleys approach to conflict resolution as an absolutely crucial part of his whole view of what makes a great marriage work - "Never do anything without the enthusiastic agreement of your spouse." - also known here as the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA). I see it as a radical interpretation of "Love your neighbor as yourself", and "submit yourselves to one another in love", and I have found it true that giving too much in my marriage actually harmed our relationship instead of made it stronger. I also find that it is impossible to do without developing good enough communication skills to REALLY know your spouse, and for them to REALLY know you - no pedestals allowed.

A little on "blocking out", though you have not given much detail so I am not sure exaactly what you mean. I am assuming you mean the ability to compartmentalize your life, so that you can be one person in one context (the affair) and another person in another context (home), and another in another context (work), etc. I won't go into details as to why, but men tend to be quite good at this. (If you are interested in finding out more, read about the "Poser" in "Wild at Heart" (which may be worth reading in its entirety, if you have not - it is a book about the stereotypical male, but I found it MUCH more true than any other I have read - and I am a SAHD who has "Conversation" as one of my top three EN's, so I do not appear to be at all stereotypical - I think it will help you understand your H - it does have a positive view of Promise Keepers, in fact the author has spoken at some of their events, but what can I say, I was very impressed - but I digress)). That talent for compartmentalization is a primary factor in "The Double Life Man" type of affair, but my wife developed quite a talent for compartmentalization, too, and that was the type of affair she had. That ability to change masks as required is a coping mechanism, and I haven't really decided if it is a healthy one or not, but if taken to extremes, you don't know who you really are any more, and you can sort of lose yourself. In fact all the masks ARE a part of the real you. But to truly know someone (and I am talking about true sexual intimacy here), you must know the integrated person. I am not sure if that is the person including all the masks or the person underneath the masks. Whichever it is, you will not get there unless you are radically honest with each other. It is only recently that I have come to begin to understand how much knowledge of our true self is related to emotional intimacy, and how that is related to sexual intimacy. It seems the Biblical writers were not using the phrase "to know" euphemistically, but trying to make a point. One that I am finally beginning to understand on an experiential level. My masks were just as much at fault for our lack of intimacy as hers were. I just wish I had taken a less painful path to get where we are now.

You might ask how I could risk taking off my own masks after my wife had shown she was capable of causing me so much pain - how could I trust her? I don't kow how to answer that except to say that she went first, by confessing her A, and that there was no other way.

<small>[ June 11, 2003, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

“Wild at Heart” was a wildly popular title with men. In fact, men would recommend it to other men and they would buy it for themselves. Most books on gender differences were purchased by women to be thrust under their husband’s nose. I have never read it in its entirety, but now I suspect it may hold some value. At this stage, I am still repulsed by anything that affirms that men are these dogs that have the choice of civilizing themselves to get over God-given animalistic needs. Their civilizing seems to stick in their minds until faced with prey that they want to catch.

Another title that explained the compartmentalizing of men’s minds…and a cheesy book not worth the pulp it is printed on aside from a good analogy: “Men are Like Waffles and Women are like Spaghetti”. It uses the word pictures of men’s minds as waffle squares with each subject in their lives in separate compartments. Women face issues in their lives as if they are stands of spaghetti, each entwined on the plate, touching one another…all relating.

It would be easy to not notice someone is wearing a mask if you had a casual relationship with him or her. However, when you have known someone for 15 years, and have never known them to have the depth to hide any feelings…I find it hard to think that masks could be changed in the course of one day. I saw the gradual change of his attitude toward some things … and often I heard him use Phraseology that seemed unnatural. I once asked him after a particularly self-centered statement from him: “Have you been watching Oprah?” In retrospect maybe he was being crafted a new mask by this OP? Sowing seeds of discontentment and then offering to fix the problem is very devious.

Speaking of disguises, the one he was wearing then has vanished. The powerful corporate man with a good income and confidence has ceased to be. He has a much less prestigious job with a third the income. His children see him not as the great and powerful OZ, but a struggling tired old man. Now he has me knowing that he had the capability to lie and destroy the life we had. I wonder if he had carried out any plans he had to crush our family, if anyone would have wanted to share a life with him when all those masks came off.

I told him this agony I was sharing with him was because if I found I could recover, then I would be able to offer him an amazing love. The kind that would be focused on him and not what he could provide/acquire/conquer. At this time, I am just pondering if I see him as he really is…more good than bad, or more bad than good.

The mask of being his wife…is it light and the easiest to wear…or will it suffocate me?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> At this stage, I am still repulsed by anything that affirms that men are these dogs that have the choice of civilizing themselves to get over God-given animalistic needs. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not read "Wild at Heart" to say anything like this. To a certain extent, we only hear what we want ot hear or are ready to hear, so maybe it is there and I am not seeng it, but so far (I'm not done with it) I would say it is saying: "Men have been created by God to have some wonderful attributes, many of which modern American society tries to eliminate from a man by adulthood. Most efforts, Christian or not, at "civilizing" men fail because they similarly try to hide, destroy, twist, or supress our fundamental God-given natures. Most of our self-destructive "uncivilized" behavior actually stems from us acting out against these strictures. Therefore, attempts at civilizing us that do not recognize and value our fundamental natures actually make the problems we face in society and the problems we have with ourselves worse, not better. We need to be allowed to, and we need to know how to, express our fundamental natures within society and within the church, or the church and society will continue to experience the problems they are now experiencing with men, particularly criminal violence and excessive passivity. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I told him this agony I was sharing with him was because if I found I could recover, then I would be able to offer him an amazing love. The kind that would be focused on him and not what he could provide/acquire/conquer. At this time, I am just pondering if I see him as he really is…more good than bad, or more bad than good. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure he would value this type of love as much as you seem to think. An awful lot of men WANT to be appreciated for what they do. According to Dalby in "Healing the Masculine Soul" two of the four important male roles are "Warrior" and "Provider". Your description of love says those are not important. In Harley terms, Admiration is typically a male need. Most of understand that as admiration for what we do. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And, then maybe all those things; me, our marrriage, and even our faith, were weak in the first place? It is a long road ahead. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My answer to those questions was yes, they were weak. My experience is that finding out just how they and I were weak has been a long, incredibly painful road, but also incredibly rewarding .

Wow, I do sound bitter? It is good to have this forum to be bitter and angry…throwing those feelings out of my heart may help me see them clearer?

Yes, I do know that men have the needs for admiration of what they can provide. They see that as tangible proofs of their worth. However, if the sole focus of a woman’s love for them is based on those things, they will feel pressured. My H said he felt that he was expected to live up to very high standards in those areas. Ironically, what I wanted from him was depth of compassion….very intangible! He thought he was giving me what he could, but it was out of proportion.

I can see clearly how we began to see-saw! He thought the more he provided the happier I would be. I saw the more he provided the more I diminished. I was supporting the man, and he thought I was supporting the Lifestyle. To clarify my “amazing love” comment…I want to not focus on what he can provide, but how he can humanize himself. By giving love, compassion and seeing the world not a mountain to climb…but a backdrop for the people that inhabit it.

It is doubly hard when I have the last years of our getting balance in the give and take of marriage. To see that it is easy and rewarding. To have the fun times of companionship and the joint rewards of seeing our children do well. He has experienced being unemployed and seeing me go off to work. We learned so much from that….(he can make a damn good piecrust.) We felt that we had found our way.

Then, I found out. Now the conduit of communication has a big blockage.

Not wanting to reveal too much to protect my anonymity. Our faith showed great fruits. My faith has grown and sustained me through great trials. It opened ministries. And always I came though a more mature Christian.

Now I guess I just wait and ponder.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Then, I found out. Now the conduit of communication has a big blockage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmm... my experience was just the opposite.

The conduit of communications is not totally blocked...but the lack of H not telling the truth. Not knowing what the truth is, and not being able to talk to me about it with complete honesty makes for this conduit to only allow a small stream of real honesty to pass thru. I will re-read your guidlines again. And Again.

I just started a new topic, as there has been a breakthrough..."Finally real remorse". It is getting better. Thank you all for your concern here.