I believe it's quite normal for a WS to act like that. My WH implemented the same kind of insensitive behaviour after I discovered the A. They are in the fog and don't see how hurtful their actions are.

Why not start Plan A now? It's not a must to have a negotiation talk with her first. Read up on the Plan A stuff here - it's a great help to understand how to avoid some of the pitfalls and do it the right way without being a doormat.

Don't give up! Be patient - It takes time to change things for the better. Plan A for some months and see what happens.

Blessings! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

quote by TMCM:
2.He started to loose his fear of his WW leaving him (she gave him deadlines of her moving out which she kept changing many times) and started to concentrate on not only improving himself but to live his life like his WW was no longer a part of his.

Her OM had dumped her and even though she still claimed that she wanted to leave him, TM94's attitude was 'If that's what you want, then so be it'. It wasn't long before she started making small, baby steps towards him by being more attentive towards him. Then one weekend he went to a motorcycle event and spent one day with a woman from the event talking and just hanging out with her. When returned home, his WW was very affectionate and jealous (seems some women have a sharp intuition that their men may be ready to leave them for another woman) telling him about that she wanted to be his W once more. Emotionally the tables had turned with TM94 now questioning whether he wanted his W back after all of this, but he came to the conclusion that it was normal to feel this way because the emotional wall he built to protect his heart was now an obstacle that he had to take down, in order for his feelings of hope and love, to return once more.
_________________________________________________

Excellent TMCM,
It often happens just that way. Many women do not know how much their men mean to them until they think he is interested in someone else. Also when the man has the attitude of "if that is what you want so be it", suddenly they are not so sure what they want. I have seen these things happen over and over and over. Women are attracted to strong, confident, and happy men who are not catering to them when they pull away. This pulls them back in. Sure wish more men on here would get more confident and realize that those things work very well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"It often happens just that way. Many women do not know how much their men mean to them until they think he is interested in someone else. Also when the man has the attitude of "if that is what you want so be it", suddenly they are not so sure what they want. I have seen these things happen over and over and over. Women are attracted to strong, confident, and happy men who are not catering to them when they pull away. This pulls them back in. Sure wish more men on here would get more confident and realize that those things work very well."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you KM4wrd and it works just as well with many BW's and their WH's.

Keepmovin and Coffeeman,

Thanks for the suggestions. It's darn hard to think straight right now, and I had not seen these issues addressed in this way before. After I read your posts last night, I decided to give it a shot....lol...yes right away. I have been trying to make love bank deposits without coming off as needy or clingy. But I kind of changed my attitude a bit, and I think it has already started to have some effect as of last night and this morning.

The A is definately still there. He is trying to reassure her that it is ok to leave and that everything will be ok. That he wants to be with her and our son forever, etc. To trust him etc. Which would have made me TOTALLY freak out yesterday, but now I am not as scared....i think...still get sad, but not as sad and angry as the past couple of days. She obviously has serious doubts about that whole deal, as she should, because I love her and want to be with her forever as we previously committed in our marriage. What kills me, is if he is trying to tell her that her son will be so happy and so forth, but I dont know if she is thinking about the past....the scars that were left from with him from the first divorce. I want to be with her and our son forever, always have.

Back to my previous thought, I dont know if I should be reassured that this guy knows she is scared or if it means that she coming closer to the crossroads of making a final decision. It's just scary. Thanks again for everything.

-Floored32

Floored, consider implementing Michelle Weiner Davis's 180 degree list:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes her feelings stronger).
24. Be patient.
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than anywords you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes.

All-

It looks like she is going to leave. I think this hurts enough, and her inconsiderate actions have hurt me enough to give up on this deal. I think am going to just let her go.

Should i start telling our friends and family about the A? Even the people who she has told about it? I want to break this other man...even though it takes 2 to tango.

I am friends with two of her friends who know about this deal. Should i contact them and talk to them about it, if I don't tell them I know that they already know?

Floored32

<small>[ June 20, 2003, 07:53 AM: Message edited by: floored32 ]</small>

Hi Floored

I'm sad to hear you're giving up.

I'll remind you of some of your own words just a few days ago:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I want to be with her and our son forever, always have.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know there is little progress at the moment but don't give up.

As TMCM said...
"You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse."
listen to TMCM's advice on other issues as well - he's a clever guy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You don't HAVE to give up. Keep on living your life and be nice to her when you talk to her.

It takes time and patience is your best friend. There IS light at the end of the tunnel!

<small>[ June 21, 2003, 06:02 AM: Message edited by: Danish ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by floored32:
All-

It looks like she is going to leave. I think this hurts enough, and her inconsiderate actions have hurt me enough to give up on this deal. I think am going to just let her go.

Should i start telling our friends and family about the A? Even the people who she has told about it? I want to break this other man...even though it takes 2 to tango.

I am friends with two of her friends who know about this deal. Should i contact them and talk to them about it, if I don't tell them I know that they already know?

Floored32</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't give up, consider going to Plan B instead. But make sure that you give her a Plan B letter like the one Jon gave to Sue in Harley's 'Surviving An Affair', otherwise your Plan B will be nothing more than a simple separation with undefined goals for the future of your M.

And as far as telling people of her A, yes do tell everybody that knows the two of you about her A. Dr Harley specifically recommends this because it puts a terrible strain on the A that very often ,this action of itself, becomes its death blow.

It's been a few days since i posted, but alot has happened over the past few days. We finally talked about everything, put it all out on the table. And it was painful for her, painful for me, and at the same time it has made me feel alot better. When we finally laid it all on the table, it seemed that for the first time since the A came to light, that she thought about everything she was throwing away. It was like the reality of the situation hit her smack dab in the middle of the face.....and it crushed her. She was unconsolable (sic) for most of that night and the next day. I continued to plan A, while considering plan B.
We had a great night together last night. And I THINK the A is currently not going on, as of saturday. That is the key remaining issue that we have to sort out, i feel.
Today we talked on the computer, and for now it seems she is doing a 180. She wants to stay..she told me she does..and i think she means it. It is just hard to believe anything right now...I want to believe her, i just need reassurance. And while my very first reaction is to be overjoyed, I know that it would be a hard road ahead. And we have yet to make a commitment to ending the A and rebuilding our marriage....if I am in fact reading her correctly.
Things seem a WHOLE lot brighter today. I hope that we can do this right. Thanks again for your support.

-Floored32 (may be standing back up?)

Well....hmmmm..... things have been calm again, and I thought the A was on hold or cold or not happening, but now I think it may still be going on. I just don't know about anything. If i am being lied to constantly or if she is just going through withdrawal. I adopted a policy of not bringing up the A yesterday, but I have still not addressed the fact that it hurts me when she sees him or talks to him. That said, I still feel decent right now, but get those anxiety feelings occasionally when she unexplainedly gone from wherever.

wondering....

-floored32

Floored,

Why don't you just ask her? If she is in withdrawal she probably isn't seeing him. If she is seeing him, then it is time for plan B. It seems you have done a good plan a, you got her to open up. But as Harley states, Plan B is for when the spouse is still sitting on the fence.

If she is in withdrawal, have her talk to you about how she feels. It will be the hardest thing you ever did, but it will draw you closer to her.

Just some thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks Just Learning, I suppose i will have to that. Things were pretty good last night and this morning too. Hope the A is over, so we can start fixing everything.

-floored32

A new development! And a good one at that! She wants to STAY!!!!!!!! We are going to recovery, after much discussion, and it feels damn good!

Thank you all! I will keep you posted through withdrawal. THANK YOU!

<small>[ June 30, 2003, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: floored32 ]</small>

UPDATE:

After a few days of good stuff, or as good as it can be anyway. She says she is still confused, or rather that her head is still filled with crazyness. She has pulled away from the OM, but has not officially told him that it is over...he is still pursuing her. There have been no meetings for 9 days now, but they have still talked on the phone or on the computer via instant messenger. I don't know the content of those conversations, suffice it to say that it hurts me...but at least she is not denying the fact when i ask her about it.
I am unsure of what is going on. She told me a 8 days ago that she wanted to work it out, and several times since then, but she says that letting go of OM is 'not very easy'. I don't know whether she is truly having a hard time of finding a way to end it, or if she is still undecided about our fate. She told me she needed time to think, so she is staying with a friend tonite and tomorrow. This was discussed, and we mutually agreed to the 2 day seperation. I made it clear that i would have a hard time with it, and that most of the reason it would be difficult for me is that I wanted to be sure that she would not see this man during this time. She has agreed to this, however she said that she does not want to permanently end the A via email or a phone call and that she must eventually see him to do so. How should I feel about this?
We had a great 4th and got a hotel room last night and have had several very good evenings together since. We have had intimate moments as well. It is just difficult being without her right now.

Your thoughts?

Thank you,

-Floored32

She is obviously trying to decide between you and the OM, and according to Dr Harley "When your spouse is trying to decide between you and the lover, it's time for Plan B." So I would suggest that you start planning to go into Plan B if she doesn't commit to end all contact with the OM in the next few days.

<small>[ July 06, 2003, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So I would suggest that you start planning to go into Plan B if she doesn't commit to end all contact with the OM in the next few days.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you TOOmuchCoffeeMan. Looks like I will reluctantly start planning a plan B. I have a question about it though. What about our son, who knows nothing about this whole deal? How do we implement plan B with him? Do we level with him completely and explain that his mom or I are going to leave the house for awhile? This seems to be a very difficult portion of the plan. He is away this week, thus facilitating my WS staying with a friend for a couple of days. The pain is starting to come back again, I am so confused. Thank you.

-floored32

I would suggest that you tell him the truth:

'Your mom and I are separating because she has fallen in love with a former boyfriend of hers, and she is undecided about whether she wants to continue being married to me or to persue her relationship with him on a permanent basis. I still want to save the marriage, but it's not my decision alone. This separation in no way affects my relationship with you and I will be in contact with you on an almost daily basis, so count on me no matter what, OK?'.

As long as you don't deliver the truth in an angry or bitter fashion, but instead deliver it with compassion and kindness, he's most likely to handle it as well as can be expected under the circumstances.

I would also suggest that you consider telling him the truth AFTER you give your WW your Plan B letter and without your her being present otherwise she is probably going to blow a gasket right in front of him and further compound his pain.

Your WW is most likely going to blame you and contact you to curse you for having revealed the truth to him about her A. If she does, walk away from her immediately and go somewhere else. She NEEDS to face the music for her actions with those she is suppose to love and care for the most.

<small>[ July 06, 2003, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Thanks coffeman. Where is that sentence you quoted from?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by floored32:

Where is that sentence you quoted from?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You mean the paragraph telling your son the truth? I made it up.

excellent, thanks