Zorweb,
Thanks for the slap in the face. Seriously.

1. I will call the moderator of this chruch group and find out if it is a support group or a singles group.
2. I will stop the porn.
3. I will not so much as discuss another woman with her, let alone "play" with any another woman (sexual or non-sexual for that matter).
4. I will ask, "Do you want to go out?"
5. I will check into the addiction. Maybe I am in denial. I have spoken to many people, preist, therapists, friends, family, some of whom are addicts. I receive about a 50-50 split on whether or not I am.
6. I will be a good listener.
*Just now my W called while I was reading your post and was upset over sneakers I bought for our son yesterday (his were falling apart). She thought the ones I bought were girlish and made him look like a twit.
I said OK and aknowledged the fact when she said she would now buy his clothes. OK. My issue with this is I feel I am never right, and my opinion never matters - even before my A. That's my stuff.
7. Right now, I'll skip the dating or going out. Since it is our 10th (tin/aluminum) - I am going to find 10 coffee and/or cookie tins in an antique store - she collects them.
8. While I am waiting for "Surviving an Affair" I am reading His Needs, Her Needs.

Thanks for your support.

Zorweb,
I have been responding to you because you are the only member answering my posts. Thank you.

My W called me to vent about what I did to her and how I treated her. I listened and said I understood. She said that I should be someone else who is a sex addict, and I would be happier. She continued saying how could she never trust me again and that she would have to play detective and that that is not a marriage. I told her I understood. She told me that she likes men and doesn't have any problems with them.
Then she shared some things that she recently found out from her younger brother about her parents and her life as a child. Things I didin't even know. Things I suspected, because they are in every family. NOTHING OF AN ABUSIVE NATURE. About her family argued and almost split up. Again, I listened.
She told me that the other day, she called the office and I was out, so to was the OW. She still suspects, and I understood. I let her know I was probably at court. I also, let her know I told the OW to never talk to me and to stay away from me. I let my W I am looking for a job and have spoken to a colleague and my boss to find one. She paused (I think) and then continued about her distrust for me.
After 10 minuites, I told her I wanted to continue hearing what she had say and that I had to get to work. She said she knows she rambles when she calls me at work and that is unfair to me, and I told her I really wanted to listen. This is difficult. I want to be there for her, and I can't afford to put my job in more jeopardy by spending alot of time on the phone. I will call her tonight, after work, and LISTEN.

Btw, I called the moderator of the church group and he told me it is a support group. I will check it out tonight and see for myself.

Thanks.

I have no idea why people are not responding to you. I do know that this is a slow forum. So that could be it. I made my first post here in 2001 and got only one reply. It took me several days posting on other forums to get many replies. Sometimes people just have to see you around for a while to know that you are not a drive by posters. Keep posting, they will come.

The issue about having a sexual addition is one you do need to pursue. There are some people who would say it was. There are some people who say it’s simply that you choose bad behavior. I haven’t a clue as to what it really is. The tag one puts on it means nothing to me. What I look at is the behavior. Is it hurting you and your relationship? The answer is yes.

Addiction or no addiction the books by Patrick Carnes, Ph. D. give wonderful insight into the type of behavior you describe and how to put an end to it. “Out of the Shadows” is one of his books. After I discovered my H’s affairs, we looked into the idea that he may have a sexual addiction. Even though his sexual acting out period was only 2.5 years out of his 45, it was something we took seriously. After all the reading, I would not label my H as having a sexual addiction. But we learned a lot. The books helped us deal with the issue of him having multiple affairs at one time. He had 10 of them going all at the same time for about 2.5 years with women he met in chat rooms. For get about pursuing if the label fits. It’s all psychobabble anyway. It’s the label you are denying, not the behavior. Learn how to curtail it and deal with it. For your own sake.

You have arrived at some good resolutions. Good luck in following them. If you backslide just get right back on plan.

“I said OK and aknowledged the fact when she said she would now buy his clothes. OK. My issue with this is I feel I am never right, and my opinion never matters - even before my A. That's my stuff.”

Good. I sounds like she is being unreasonable with this. Geez, you took care of something your son needed. You are a guy and have no problem with the shoes. If she did not like them she could just get him another pair without saying a word. But right now that she was being somewhat unreasonable is not the point. The point is that you need to pick your fights very carefully. This is not a fight you have to worry about right now. If she wants to be the fashion consultant for your kids. Ok, let her. You, did very well with this.

At some point in the future when she complains that your are not taking the kids shopping, then tell her you will. Again it’s not worth a fight. After you fry the big fish, like getting her to agree to work on your marriage, you can start to slowly address these issues.

Before you drop the ‘going out’ for your anniversary, have you considered calling her. Apologizing for your original choice for it and asking her if she wants to go out and what she would like to do if she does? If she agreed to go out, that would give you a chance to spend more time with her.

On to your next post….

Sounds like you are listening and responding very well. Great. I’ll bet that she is taken back by this. Another feather in your cap.

There are things that you can do to gain her trust. Right now I have to get to work while I still have a job. So I cannot go into it until tonight. Hope you have a very good day.

Went to the support group yesterday. It was OK, got some things out of it. Felt strange because I was the only WS there; most were BS or widowed. I am going to attend next week's mtg, but after that they switch to Tuesdays. That is my Men's mtg day. They also have "things" they do outside of the mtg. I told them I was not intereseted because I am trying to save my marriage, not look for someone new.
Was supose to call my W last night, but by the time I got to my friends, it was almost 11 pm. I will call her later today to apologize for being so forward in my previous plans for our anniversary. Also, ask her if she wants to go to the movies and/dinner this weekend.
TTSMM

Zorweb,
Something I forgot from my W's call. When she was talking about the OM, she mentioend that he offered to take her to Hawaii. My W was concerned because the OM has a GF and told my W she would understand.
What's interesting about this is when we first met I wanted for us to go to Hawaii for our honeymoon or a vacation in the future. She always thought I was crazy because it was, to her, a bunch toursity nothingness. Then right after we joined the gym, she's interested in Hawaii. Also, I was born in NYC and raised in the South Bronx. She gets on me about taking the man out the ghetto and but taking the ghetto out of the man. This would be her remark anytime I listened to Rap/Hip-Hop (not that frequent) or watch/listen to black shows/comedians. Since the gym, she has gotten interested in listen to BET on cable for the comedians and her taste in music has broadened as well. I understand why, the EA. It is annoying to me though that before I knew about the EA when I would comment about her change, and why it was OK for her to change but not for me to like those things (Hawaii and black comedians, etc), she retorted with the ghetto/man comment above.
This is my own stuff and hopefully by venting it here I will not worry about in the future.
Thanks.

Called my W today to discuss what needs to fixed with the house. We have a one year list that is now late because I am not there. She is not as detailed oriented as myself and I am affraid she will miss something and it will costs us later on. Anyway, after that conversation she asked if I mind taking the kids on Saturday, because she has plans. My mind went racing on what those plans are. Is she seeing someone? Is she just taking a break with GF's? What?
I told her I would call her back later.
I then told her I was sorry for suggesting the anniversary plans I had made. Without a beat she went right into, "Well you are still sending me flowers, Why?" I told her that it was already paid for (somewhat true), the subscription was started up again after it laggd for two months. I then wanted to apologize for some other things - calling her names during agruements (prude, lazy, snob, etc. - found in HNHN Enemy #2 to conversation) and before I could even start she said she was in a rush to go to the gym.
All I look for is some minor sign and I get nothing. I know I need to be patient, but I did not even get a chance to ask her if she would like to go to a movie or dinner. It hit me hard when she said she going out (on the weekend we would be celebrating our 10th).

Hurt and confused.
TTSMM

TTSMM,

I wanted to reply to your posts from yesterday but have run out of time.

I live in the desert. The Rio Grande runs through the middle of our city with a bosque (forest) that grows along it. Well yesterday some idiot was shooting off fireworks in the bosque. YOu got it.. we have a huge fire going on. It splits our city in half. I could not get home from work until very late last night.

I'll check in when I get home tonight.

Zorweb,
How did it go with the fire last night?

In less than 90 minutes, it will be my 10th wedding anniversary. I feel depressed. I have missed Mother's Day, our son's 3rd birthday, Father's Day and now our anniversary. This stinks.
Today, I went to several different antique shops looking for coffee or biscuit tins, came up with nothing. I spent over three hours in the car searching. I have nothing to give my W even if she would accept it.

Doing the 180.
If I were home, I would have made arrangements for a big dinner, maybe a show or dancing. A 180 means doing nothing. No call, no card, no gift. How is that suppose to make her notice anything good about me. She still thinks I'm sleeping with the OW; won't this just add to her suspicions?

In some of your previous posts, you really let me have it, and deservedly so. I also want you to know that even before I started reading HNHN, I felt my W's actions/inactions opened up the opportunity for me to look elsewhere. Don't jump on this one statement yet, I can't find the proper words.
I read about Conversation, the enemies and the friends? of it in HNHN today. Defintely our communication needs a total overhaul; more so from her end, but we both need fixing. In past coversations, my W made numerous withdrawals from the Love Bank, because she would ask me about something and I would honestly answer. Then I would be brow beaten with her judgements, comments, etc. After a while, I would edit my responses to lessen her's. But she continued. Then it became easier to just withhold the truth. Yes it was my choice, she only made it that much easier to choose.
She would always be talking about therapy and how it was needed by various members of her family. When I suggested sex counselling for us, she said no. I persisted, but after the third time being told that the material things of life were more important than the sex, relationship, or any other like intangible, the Love Bank dwindled. I think the sex therapist would have noticed a communication problem and perhaps redirected us. Who knows?
Again, I know it was my choice. No one put a gun to my head to have an A. We were not meeting eachother's ENs and so when the OW came along and could meet some of them immediately, there was an attraction which lead to a PA.

Now I'm paying the price, and my children are paying an even heavier price.

I'm not giving up. I just feel alone, that's all.

Hi,

I followed your link after your reply to my post ... it took me a while to get through reading all your postings and the replies from Zorweb and others.

I'm not sure exactly why nobody else is writing to you, but I think it's partly because they get pissed off (I was almost there myself). There was really nothing wrong with what you said, but there was an underlying tone that bothered me.

(I bet you most readers don't make it to the second page)
On the second page, I really enjoyed reading Zorweb's long letter and comments about you being argumentative with her and trying to educate and even worse, correct her!

She is reacting to you so strongly that my conclusion is that she still cares about you a lot – and may hate herself for doing so. Love and hate are so close they’re sometimes hard to tell apart. If I were you, I’d start worrying more if she stops getting angry with you!

She IS trying to punish you and the only way she’ll stop is if she feels that she has succeeded. Until then, the game will go on.
You just have too much ego left in you. She was crushed by what you did and wants to do something really hurtful in return, like crushing your ego and I’m guessing until she feels she’s accomplished that, she won’t stop.
My BF has one of those large male egos. But he’s let it all go and has made himself completely vulnerable and that made me “curious”. I was willing to give him the time of day and hear what he had to say.
One time I was saying all sort of hurtful things to him on the phone and he started apologizing while crying from the bottom of his heart and lungs. At that moment, for the first time, I actually believed he was regretful and hurting over what he had put me through (and still is).

My BF cheated on me for almost a year. We’re not married, true, but that doesn’t matter. A committed relationship is a committed relationship no matter how you label it. He says he’s sorry and he sounds sincere, but that’s NOT why I’m considering giving him another chance. I think he’s winning me over again not only by being a better man, but also by NOT making all the classical mistakes that you are making. He’s opening up to me (something he never did before). He’s acting vulnerable and doesn’t try to hide it. He doesn’t overact or make a huge deal of it either.

I’m full of mixed emotions. I go through hours of hating and hours of loving, hours of wanting to give him a chance and hours of being completely disgusted by him. He was my best friend!! I talked to him about everything and anything. You know what’s really odd? When I’m hurt by what he did and have all these images flash through my head, at that same moment I wish HE was there to HOLD ME and make the fear go away. That’s how contradictory my emotions and thoughts are.

He listens to me lash out. He listens to me cry. When I’m crying or lashing out, he doesn’t try to hold me (shouldn't), he doesn’t try to talk to me or explain himself or make excuses (again, he shouldn't), his head drops, he stares at the floor and is practically speechless. Later, when I’m feeling slightly better, he tells me that he doesn’t say anything because he did me so wrong he feels that he has NO RIGHT to even try to defend himself or explain him actions. Even when my information is “wrong” or flawed, he doesn’t try to correct it or inform me of how it really happened (he tried it a couple of times and boy does that piss me off or what!!). He just listens.
NO, it doesn’t make my anger go away and it doesn’t make me feel sorry for him. It doesn’t put him in a better or higher status either, but one important purpose it serves is that it allows me to talk freely, without interruption, without being corrected, and most importantly, it makes me want to talk to him about my hurt AGAIN. His reactions are correct (or at least with regards to me they are).

You need to let some of that male ego drop. I think your W is getting “tired of you”. She’s sickened by what you did, but she’s getting tired of you as well. She’s at the end of her rope and all you do, is make her drop even farther than she is already.

As we all know, this is not a quick fix, but from all your postings it seems to me that you’re doing all the “wrong” things, this is exactly why 180 ought to work better!!

It bothers me that you are trying so hard. It just doesn’t seem natural and you BET she’s sensing it, too!! She’s not an idiot you know! She calls and complains about the shoes you bought your son. You claim you reacted appropriately, but deep inside you were hurt or insulted that “nothing you ever do is good enough”, and you actually think that she’s not seeing through your act and not feeling your dismay? Come on, of course she does! People are generally more transparent than they think (especially if someone has good reason to look hard and sharp).

My suggestion for now is to stop doing the things that ticks her off. It just doesn't seem like you even know what they are. You're either leaning all the way to the right or all the way to the left and don't seem to understand the "in between" stage.

If you call and offer to help around the house (with that one year list for example) and she reacts negatively, just REMEMBER it for next time and do NOT OFFER that type of help anymore. Wait for her to ask for it (like she did with mowing the lawn for instance).

I understand that you don't want to give up on her or your marriage, and that's very admirable.
You know what I was thinking? I was thinking that even if you go through with the divorce, if you do it as "friends" not enemies, and if it's on good terms, you could still get back together and have a fresh start. (maybe you could even ask her out on a "date"!!)
I'm not saying you should give up, but please know when to quit! Don't let it get sour and out of hand.

<small>[ June 26, 2003, 01:17 AM: Message edited by: Yzzil ]</small>

The fire went alright. It was set by kids with firworks in a forest in the middle of a several year drought. Now smart at all. They evacuated 100’s of people. As far as I know only one house burned down.. it was under construction. Thank goodness they go it contained so quickly. We have few enough trees here. It would be a huge tragedy if we lost our 40 mile long bosque.

Yzzil, Wow, I really like your post. You got to the quick of what I was thinking and could not put into words. My husband acted in the same way you describe your boyfriend behaving. And it was from the bottom of his heart, not an act. It does make all the difference in the world.

TTSMM, after reading Yzzil’s post what comes to mind is that you have not hit bottom yet. You are still struggling to maintain that ego thing. You have to let it go. Yzzil is so right about the way your wife is reacting to you. Let go of the ego, don’t let everything she says hurt you. It’s not about you… buying shoes is not about you. It’s just about the shoes.

The bit about Hawaii, ghetto music and so forth is normal. People change when they make new friends. I understand that frustration with it. Lived through some of that with my ex. But again just let it go.

Do you have any sort of schedule for who has the children when? It might be best to set that right now so that you do not start second guessing why she wants you to take the kids. Just be happy that you get to spend some time with them.

I then wanted to apologize for some other things - calling her names during agruements (prude, lazy, snob, etc. - found in HNHN Enemy #2 to conversation) and before I could even start she said she was in a rush to go to the gym.

If you have things to say to her like this, maybe you should write her a Plan A letter… it apologizes and admits what you have done to hurt her, it expresses you love and it tells what you hope can come of this. That way she can ‘hear’ you better when she reads it.

All I look for is some minor sign and I get nothing.

The reason for doing the right thing is not for the pay-back we get. Stop looking for those signs. It makes you second-guess everything she does and says. It lets every things she says cut into you. You are looking for the big payoff. Instead do the right thing because doing it is it’s own reward. She owns her reaction to it. So don’t focus on her reaction . Instead focus on you being the best TTSMM you can be.

It hit me hard when she said she going out (on the weekend we would be celebrating our 10th).

My bet is that she is doing this to show the same respect for your marriage vows as you did. She is stuck in a revenge cycle. Yzzil put it well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I were home, I would have made arrangements for a big dinner, maybe a show or dancing. A 180 means doing nothing. No call, no card, no gift. How is that suppose to make her notice anything good about me. She still thinks I'm sleeping with the OW; won't this just add to her suspicions?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok the 180 has to be tailored for each situation. I think that you should give her something. You say that you usually would do a dinner/show/dancing. Then make it smaller and more heartfelt. Maybe flowers and the Plan A letter. She is not even planning on being around this weekend. So flowers and a dinner at a place with a piano bar… no show or dancing. Or a picnic or a hike. But don’t tell her. Ask her out. (But not on a DATE, lol)

In some of your previous posts, you really let me have it, and deservedly so. I also want you to know that even before I started reading HNHN, I felt my W's actions/inactions opened up the opportunity for me to look elsewhere. Don't jump on this one statement yet, I can't find the proper words.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I read about Conversation, the enemies and the friends? of it in HNHN today. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you that both of you need an overhaul in the way you communicate. One of the issues I see is that you keep bringing up what she has to fix. You can only change yourself. So put all of your thoughts and energy there.. on yourself.

For example you say that she would brow beat you when you were honest. I have learned a very good lesson from MB and our recovery. It is that if I want someone to be open with me, then I have to make it safe for them to open up. I told my H that I wanted radical honesty from on about his affairs and all else. I promised him that I would never use what he told me to hurt him. Then I had to live by that promise. There were many times when I was hard not to love bust. There were a few ( very few) times when I did. On those times I apologized and we moved on.

You can only change yourself. The 180 here would be to become radically honest with her. Remember that radical honesty is not harsh honesty. Then if she starts to brow beat you, then at that time you tell her (again this is radical honesty) in a very calm voice that you would like to share with her but her anger, judgments, etc. make it hard to talk to her.

Her refusal to got to sex counseling is very interesting…. Because withhold sex is a control issue. It tells me that she felt she had no control in the marriage. It was the only thing she could control so she did. She could not control you use of pornography, chats, affairs and so forth. But she can control her own body. It’s also a statement that she was upset with your obsession with sex. The message is that sex is not so important that it should control YOU. She did not want to go to sex counseling because she did not want to give up the little bit of control she had.

I know that you are feeling very alone. This is a terrible time for you, your wife and your children. Have you considered getting an appointment with Dr. Harley? I get the gut feeling that there is something here that I am missing. Some pieces that someone as skilled as he could help you sort through.. like finding the lost pieces to a puzzle.

She is impossible. I sat listening on the phone for 30 minutes, again her brow beating me. Then when I asked for the kids to stay over at my friends house this weekend, they will be away, she said she didn't trust me. She thinks I would molest my own kids. She was molested at 7-8 years old. So naturally and rightfully so she wants to protect our children. She figures that beacuse, back during the A, I had asked about S&M because I was completely out of control and didn't care. Now that means that is what I am always.
I tried to explain that I would never do that

She's still calling me back and arguing so I can not even get my thoughts staright o what I am writing here.

Having a converstation on thephone is impossible, I need eye contact. I can't just sit and listen to her BS and her take absolutely NO responsibility for anything in the M.
I read her the 12 conversation steps from HNHN and she thought they were OK, but she didn't need them. She knows how to have a normal conversation, I'm just not a normal person, BS. I asked if she would like me to get her the book and she went nuts, saying I was trying to contorl her and manipulate her, etc. Perhaps, because of how she has controlled and manipulated me during the past years, even before the A.
Now I'm just ranting. YES I KNOW I DID WRONG. ANd, she thinks I am the only one who did anything worng here. She then changes things from the past to fit her senario who point of view. Like I wanted to go to sex clubs in NYC when we first started dating. BS, she suggested one night that perhaps a club would be interesting to watch.
Yes, I have a greater sex drive than her, but I only suggested the S&M when I felt really confused about myself and I felt the Love Bankk dwindling: her sarcasm, insults, constant corrections, treaing me like a child, not respecting my feelings or point of views. Now this BS that I would hurt our children. She told our D that if I ever touched her, she would make sure I live to regret it. She thinks in her mind that I would do that. During the start of our problems five years ago, she had our D checked to see if I (or someoneelse) might have molested her. There were no warning sugns or anything. My W has severe problems, I feel. How do you lie on the witness stand under oath, because she wants to keep me out of the house. How do you tell our D that "I think that you and I will be happier with another man and another Daddy in our lives." She didn't even include our S in that sentence.
We need MC together, not apart where she can go ahead and say that the therapist sides with her, her friends side with her, her family sides with her. Funny because before the BS TRO she filed, her family and friends told her to give me a chance; he's working on it, etc. Now after the TRO she threatened her family not to talk to me so they behave her. Who's be controlling here.

Yes I have a lot of anger right now. When we were in couselling, the therapist would ask her to staste her feelings around things and she would just go down her list of what I did; she would interrupt. Right now when I told her to tell m ehow she is interrupting me and that she did that in counselling, she immediately jumps to the counsellor is on her side and knows I am screwed up.

I probably have siad more thatn I should have right. I should look at calling Dr. Harley. What good will it do if she refuses to go into counselling again. What can do for me if the other party refuses to even see their own faults in the marriage.

As I mentioned I was radicaly honest with her in the beginning and she just shot me down. Now I feel even more depressed than before.

She told thta the reason she locked me out of the house is because the last time we had sex, she thought I was too rough with the last thrusts. She complained aftwerwards and started crying. After listening for a while, she was crying befcause the OM from her then EA was leaving the gym. Now when she brought up the incident to me she just mentions the last thrust and not that she was thinking aobut the OM while we were making love. Not that because she was fantiszing maybe that is why she felt I was thriusting differnetly.

I'm crying right now over how <blanked> this has all become. I really don't know what to do. Our conversations have to be respectful of eachother no matter what we did in the past. Or am I suppose to just listen to whatever she wants to throw at me, correct or incorrect, and throw the 12 conversation steps out the window.

HELP.................. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I want to go into MC with my W. I know we need to learn how to communicate respectfully with eachother. If she wants to know the whole story around the A, I want it in that forum. She doesn't feel we need to go into counselling together beacsue she is right about everything and I am a creep and lonely man. She'd rather have these conversations w/o therapist so she can control the whole thing: interrupt when she wants, name calling, etc. I want to how she feels, not hear the same list of problems over and over again. I think if she let me know how deeply I hurt her and how much pain she is in , I could open up and let her know how sorry I am for doing those things. Being beat over the head with a list of what's wrong doesn't work for me. I need to understand her feelings and express mine without her saying that that is not how I feel.
I am truly sorry for the pain I caused her and now our children because of my past actions. I want another chance to love her again. I could never do this again because the pain is too great for her, our children and for myself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Zorweb/Yizzl,
On the way back to my friends, my W calls me on the cell to the house, I think. Anyway, she says she hears an echo on the cell phone and wants to know why? I told her she was on the speaker. She says she's been on the speaker and never had that happen before. I told her it was a new hands-free set I am using (truth). She said OK in an abrupt manner and then hung up.

If she wants the marriage to be over and doesn't want to be with me, why does she care about my phone? Why is she suspicious if she wants a divorce? Btw, 10th anniversay and I did not hear anything from her about filing.

I picked up SAA and "Out of the Shadows" tonight. Now I don't know which one to read first. I am already on the 3rd EN for women in HNHN. Should I stop to start one of the others? Should I just read all three at the same time? I am also reading a chapter, or two, of the Bible each day before bed.

TTSMM

<small>[ June 27, 2003, 01:02 AM: Message edited by: tryingTOsaveMYmarriage ]</small>

Read "Surviving an Affair" first.

TTSMM,
What I see in your posts, especially the newer ones is that you are still caught up in a game of who is more right, more wrong, more this or that then the other. You are also still trying to teach her… the bet about HNHN and conversations is one very big example. Stop it! And then you follow through with disrespectful judgments. She is impossible, she is trying to control you and on and on. She drove you to being adulterous.
Do not teach her. Instead learn what is right and then YOU live it. She may or may not follow. But that is her decision.
Do not pressure her to get into marriage counseling right now. It’s not that helpful most of the time anyway. You have already experienced that. Get into counseling by your self, seek to make yourself a better person.
You are a full-grown man. There is no way that anyone can make you do anything. We already know that… you had your affair and other extramarital sexual activities against her will. She can yell, holler, scream, etc. all she wants. But you are the one who decides how you are going to act.
What I see is that you want her to admit to her faults. Give it up. Admit to yours and take the consequences like a man. As long as you try to tell her what she does wrong, as long as you say things like she drove you to have an affair she is not going to be interested in rebuilding your marriage. Perhaps some day she will come to the realization on her own.
Reread your posts, then look at how you can do a 180 on the way you respond to her. When you talk to her ask her how she is doing and listen. If it starts to get emotional change the subject.. to the weather if you have to . Avoid relationship talks at all costs right now.
Reread Yizzl’s post……
You said that you will tell your wife about the affair, etc, if she goes to counseling. I assume this is because you do not feel safe talking to her.. you feel that she will just blow up on you. But she see’s that as you trying to manipulate her into counseling. Why don’t you write up the things you want to and need to tell her about it. Let her read it. That way she will not be able to interrupt you, badger you etc. She will have to ‘hear you out’. If you want we could help you with the letter so that it can break through the ice. I’d bet that you being so radically honest with her would blow her way. And if you did it without any judgement and critisim of her …..

I am just not good at getting this across to you. You really do need a professional. Someone to coach you… do call Steve.

<small>[ June 27, 2003, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: Zorweb ]</small>

I am getting so annoyed at my PC. I have been writing a post for the last 10 minutes and it vanished before I could save it.
I'll try again.

Zorweb,
Thanks for putting up with my posts. I understand what you are saying and I appreciate you taking your time to help me.

According to HNHN and SAA, they mention that when EN's are not fulfilled, it opens the possibility of an A occurring. Again, I take responsibility for my actions, AND, my W was not fulfilling my EN's. No I did not want her to be my Porn Queen. I was checking out the sex vids not to have fun by myself, but to find ways we could have fun together (not bizarre ways either). I was picking up new positions that we could try etc. Anyway, when she did not fulfil my EN's - particuraly? APPRECIATION, she started making major withdrawals from the Love Bank. When the OW appreciated me, laughed at my jokes, didn't put me down for being me, her Love Bank balance increased. Once we got involved and we started kissing, the account skyrocketed. *Don't know if I mentioned in previous posts, but my W would not kiss for a few years prior to my A because my teeth are crooked.
Now to her EA. I know after confessing to my PA, my Love Bank with her was at a deficit. She wanted to get away from me, understandably. She meets a personal trainer at the gym, they have similar interests in music (in the past I tried to share her interests and since I wasn't on her level, she didn't want to share with me), and other things and so there starts her EA. I understand and forgive her completely. When I have told her this, she thinks I was in conspiracy with him to have her cheat on me to even the score. Not true.

If my W was meeting most of my EN's and I hers, and I had an A. I wouldn't be so defensive around this and would accept the fact thast she wanted a divorce. But, since we did not handle this M in the proper manner, I want that chance to make this a great M.

I will arrange for something with Harley tomorrow.

Thanks and G'nite,
TTSMM

Zorweb, and anyone else who reads this post,
I did not get much sleep, last night, about three and a half hours. I am so lost and confused. I know what you and Yizzl told me is true. It's just so hard not seeing results come as quickly as I would like. I miss sleeping in our house; I miss sitting down to dinner and eating with my W and children. I feel lost in limbo.

I am going to call Harley today and arrange for some counselling next week. The price is steeper than what we pay our current therapist, BUT, I'm going to do it.
I have afew questions for you MB MC veterans out there:
1 - Are Dr. Harley's sessions covered under medical insurance; i.e. United Health Care.
2 - Are the sessions covered under a medical flex spending account?
3 - Does MC work if it is only the WS in the counselling?
4 - How many sessions did it take for you to see results?
5 - How is it to talk to a therapist over the phone? I have done so twice with our's, but this is only after several face-to-face visits. My W does so much of the time because of the kids, especially now wit me not being home.

Zorweb,
I wanted to let you know how I was doing on the points I brought up in a previous post:
1. I will call the moderator of this chruch group and find out if it is a support group or a singles group.
As I Mentioned, the group was OK. They do do things outside as social events. I told them I will not participate in those. I will go when my schedule allows and judge it accordingly.

2. I will stop the porn.
No inclination to veiw/do anything. I did pick up "Out of the Shadows" and will read, after SAA and HNHN.

3. I will not so much as discuss another woman with her, let alone "play" with any another woman (sexual or non-sexual for that matter).
Haven't had many opportunities to talk with my W. Feel no desire to talk to any women, except and "hello" and then go about my business. When Harley talks about recreational partner, I don't fully buy into only doing things with my S; however, any recreational activity I do w/o my S will only be with men.

4. I will ask, "Do you want to go out?"
Have not a had a chance to do so. Missed getting a card for our 10th anniversary. Still looking for old biscuit or coffe tin as a gift (10th anniversary is tin or alumminum).

5. I will check into the addiction. Maybe I am in denial. I have spoken to many people, preist, therapists, friends, family, some of whom are addicts. I receive about a 50-50 split on whether or not I am.
See point #2 above.

6. I will be a good listener.
This is perhaps, no defintely is, the single most difficult one to do. When all the feedback I get is argumentative, accusatory, etc. it's hard for me to remain calm and focus on listening. A man on my men's team told me once, "What you think of me is none of my business." I should staple that to the inside of my eyelids. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

7. Right now, I'll skip the dating or going out. Since it is our 10th (tin/aluminum) - I am going to find 10 coffee and/or cookie tins in an antique store - she collects them.
See point #4 above.

8. While I am waiting for "Surviving an Affair" I am reading His Needs, Her Needs.
Just picked up SAA last night and started reading. Have stopped HNHN.

I really need your help with the 180 stuff, I don't want my W and C to be another divorce statistic.

On a positive note, I do have some of those <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , I have applied to an executive search firm to find a new job so I can NC with the OW.

My thought has been lost, again, my W just got off the phone with me. I was very calm when she told me how much money she needs (more on that later), and I did not question anything. She was inquisitve about where I was taking the kids this weekend; they are staying with at my friends house, because him and his F are going away. She gets bent out of shape on why they are letting me stay with them. I told her I would call her later to discuss what things the kids need for the weekend; she got angry figuring I am problably going to take them camping (if I have not mentioned in a previous post, she flat out refuses to let our D go camping, it's not lady like - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . Anyway, I am letting you know this for two reasons; 1 - so you know what I have to deal with and can support me on a 180; and 2 - so you can see I'm not a complete idiot and I am trying to interact respectfully <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> .

To wit the money issue. Based on advice of friends and legal counsel (during the TRO hearing) I closed all of our joint accounts. I am taking care of all the bills and give her money for her and the C every two weeks.
Honestly, do you consider this a form of control? The F is not starving and they are being provided for accordingly. I'm not living there and she needs to realize that this is part of what happens when you want to get a D. I want to know your opinion.

While I'm posting another call from her. Again over camping; "D will be a girlish-girl and S will be a boyish boy. I don't want my D becoming white trash." I agreed to that, and my feelings about camping are different, and I kept them to myself. She told me she called my friends W and she told my W that I could do what I wanted with the kids; they're his kids too. My W was not happy and feels I am scheming and will take our D campoing later in life. If later in life our D wants to go camping, I'll take her. I won't force the issue. My C's are going to rebel and do what they want when they hit adolecense anyway. My W doesn't see it that way. BUT I did not agrue or bring that point up.
Then she brought up I am raising them Catholic without her full approval, therefore she is putting her foot down with the D and camping. Then she said it's OK for them to be raised religious, as long as it is not to the extreme I was, I agreed. She said that I only agree now because "they are dead and gone. You should have been able to get away from your manipulative mother and controlling father when you were 18. On that note, I'll say goodbye."

For the WS's out here,
How do you keep your coll with constant insults, etc.? Is this a sign that she wants things to eventually work and she needs to vent? (She's done this many times over the past 3 years - always having to teach me a lesson).

For the BS's out there,
At what point do I insist on proper communication between her and I, ala HNHN? Do I just let her vent for ever and walk on eggshells with my reponses forever? Do I never move back into our house and she never files for D?

Zorweb, if you don't post back, have a good weekend.

TTSMM

TTSMM,

I know that this is hard for you… it’s a terrible time.

1. Harley’s sessions are not covered by med insurance. They are marriage coaching, not counseling that can put disguised as help for depression. I know he is very expensive, but even just 1 or 2 sessions with him might be very beneficial.

2. 2 - Are the sessions covered under a medical flex spending account? – Don’t know. I’d be inclined to just pay it out of there. If the IRS does not like it they will let you know. And your doing it is not an attempt at tax fraud. Just an honest attempt to use the account as intended

3 - Does MC work if it is only the WS in the counseling? – Yes it works if only one person doe it. After you have read the MB books, you may want to read Divorce Busting The book explains how just one person can save a marriage.

4 - How many sessions did it take for you to see results? – I never counseled with Harley. My H and I did it all using the MB books. BUT we both agreed to do it and worked together. I’ve seen the results of Harley’s counseling.. it really helps. One other thing that you might want to do first is talk to Cerri. She posts here.. She trained with Harley. Go to her thread and ask her to read your thread and give you advice.

5 - How is it to talk to a therapist over the phone? I have done so twice with our's, but this is only after several face-to-face visits. My W does so much of the time because of the kids, especially now wit me not being home. --

It works great. We do phone counseling with my step son (15) who is institutionalized. It works quite well.

I’m glad that the support group sounds like it will be helpful.

Your wife is out of line with her trying to control the kids and your relationship. I’ll get into it later. I agree with you on the camping… and I’m a lady not while trash.

I’m late for work so I have to end here. Will post after work and will be around this weekend.

Zorweb,
Thanks.

I learned some very bad news today. As mentioned before about money with us, I was checking into some funds (IRS refund and a refund from our former mortgage lender) totalling over $4000. Looking into this they were both cashed. These checks were made out to both our names, and I did not endorse them. I have a call to my legal counsel and now I feel sick. How do I confront this? My attourney told me a few weeks ago that she had heard my W tell her attorney that she was coming into some money.
I know you said don't focus on who's right or wrong right now. BUT!!!! now we're looking at her doing some possible criminal (I imagine) activity:
- Purjured herself during the TRO hearing.
- Forged my signature on a mortgage refund.
- Forged my signature on an IRS refund.

I have nothing else to say right now.
TTSMM

Zorweb,
I kept my composure on the phone. I have the kids this weekend. I gave my W the list of clothes, etc. that needed. She tells me to help our S with potty training. I tell her no problem. She then tells me, "Always show him standing up. The way a boy is suppose to. You go to the bathroom stranger than any man I know, sitting down. Your father was around long enough to show you. Instead you learn from sick mother. Goodbye." And then she hangs up. As I said I kept my cool <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> and this is what I got throughout the M, even before the A.

Post more later, I'm grabbing some food to eat.