For the record, I’m reading your postings and following the progress, I’m just not sure what to say (write) or how to help, and unless I have something, I keep quiet.

Regarding this last conversation, it looks really good ... at least it does from where I stand! Just remember that she might have another “lashing out” session soon thereafter. I know this because it happens to me quite often.
For instance, I’m angry and irritated at my SO, then he does something or says something that makes me soft and comfortable, and then I feel angry at myself for “almost forgetting” what he’s done and decide to “remind him” of it and lash out again.

I’m just about finished with “Surviving an Affair” … it’s a small book but I’ve just been taking my time. I decided to pause-and-practice after I reached the point where I was supposed to stop the angry outbursts and other love-busters … and after a few days of success, I’m continuing on with the book.

As far as which EN(s) you might have met, here’s my take on it:
You met:
1) Conversation
Now I don’t know how high up on her list this one is, but it’s probably 6 or 7 on mine.
2) Family Commitment (very minimal though)
Family commitment should be high up, but under the circumstances, you won’t get “full credit” for that … not for a long time that is.

What she might have expected you to meet (during that phone conversation) which based on your own description you failed to do, is Admiration -- as she made it quite clear by making several references to it.

Hope you’ll enjoy your 4th of July.

<small>[ July 03, 2003, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Yzzil ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel that throughout this call I felt like a doormat . She was taking and I was giving. But, I did sense a shift in her, ever so slight.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You did very well in that conversation. Yes you felt like a doormat. That’s understandable. But there were two things going on.

One is that it was definitely a “Plan A” type of conversation. Meaning that you met her needs and did not particularly look to have yours filled. The idea of Plan A if for you to be the best husband you can be.. so that she starts to see you in a new light, starts missing you (more), and you start to look better than the OM.

The other thing that is going on is that you are learning a new way of communicating with your wife. You are learning to not have to interject your input and opinion into everything. You are learning to listen to her. Your wife may not always be right by your estimation. But in hers she is. And that’s ok.. you see you think that you’re right most of the time too. So you have to let her be right sometimes. You did that today. Or at least you did not shoot down everything she said or have to prove that you are smarter/wiser/etc.

And did you see the net result?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But, I did sense a shift in her, ever so slight.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’m sure that she went off scratching her head as to why that was so easy. Good she is thinking of you now.

Also, you said that she was taking and you were giving. I also saw something in there that she was giving you. When she had a problem, whom did she come to? YOU. That is a complement. She still sees you as the one person who will help her.

TTSMM,

Here is the first part of the response to your post of a couple of days back. This is just the first chance I've had to get it posted. I'll add the rest later.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do I meet her needs on the phone?…….. Should I start listing what I think her needs are (the opposite of mine, no doubt)?….. Should I ask her her needs? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At this point do not ask her about her needs. There are some that you can already guess at… honesty, admiration, affection, conversation and recreation are ones that I get from what you have said so far. Domestic support, Financial Support, SF, appearance, etc fall in there after those right now. I’m just guessing but do have some ideas.

Honesty … when you talk to her on the phone be honest. If you can offer her something she can use to check up on you. This puts everything out in the open. It’s harder in your case, but for example my H gave me the passwords to all of his computers, email accounts, chat accounts, etc. Tell her that it’s ok for her to talk to the OW or check out anything she wants to. My H deleted all of his buddy lists and email address books with me looking on. He did not know the topic was going to come up… we were in his office talking about how to build trust. I told him if he got ride of all the lists and address books. He turned to his computer and did it. Sure he could have made a copy but if he did I’m sure I would have found it. And he had no warning. After that unknown to him I checked his computer (home and work) and removed any residual files (like email archives. I now how to crack into them and extract the data.. he does not.) I checked all of his back CDs, etc. What I found is that he was really honest about the deletions.

Admiration … Every time you talk to her tell her something that you admire about her. Tell her she is a good mother. That she looks great. Thank her if she does anything for you . etc.

Affection… You do not want to be romantic right now. So acknowledge things like birthdays etc with a nice card. Write a note telling her how you think she is special (more admiration). Get her little things than you just saw and got for her. She is into working out.. so maybe something small for that .. even a funky sweat band. Give it to her with no fan fare. Just…. “This made me think about you so I got it for you.”

Recreational activities/ conversation: Phone calls maybe the only way you can do this right now… If she is down then listen to her talk about her day. DO NOT give any advice.. only say that you understand that it is making her feel badly but that you know she will overcome it. Something like that. She is a big girl, she can solve her own problems…. Just wants to talk about them. If she ever needs help with something then offer to help. Email her meaningful jokes or story items about things she is interested in. Write her letters and emails that bare your inner soul to her (just don’t get too heavy). You could also ask you wife if she wants to go out.. something small .. a walk, coffee, what ever. She may do it. Just what ever you do, do not ask her for a ‘date’. (LOL)

Domestic Support: Help with the kids as much as you can. What I have seen when a couple splits up is that usually one spouse, often the woman, tries to ‘own’ the children. But this is an enormous weight.. single parenting stinks to put it mildly. So over time, as they feel safer and more in control of their life they start letting the other parent have more time. I’ve seen it go so far that eventually the kids just move in almost entirely with the other parent. So just offer to take care of them every time you can. Offer to take them to the doc. Etc. I have to give you a caveat here… I do not agree with the way she is controlling the kids and your seeing them. I don’t know why so many women think that they own the children and can tell the father how much time he can have with the kids. But it’s a hard thing to fight unless you want to go to court. That may come later but we are all hoping not.

There are some ideas, maybe you can expand on them…

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How do I know for sure that she is having an A? … Do I contact the OM? I have been told by some friends from a legal standpoint that he could get a TRO against me and that that would not fair well for me later on. She even said for me to call him and ask him. That it was only an EA. Of course he would lie, my OW lied to my W about us.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do not contact the OM right now.. not until you know the score. And even then only in the way MB suggests. Right how he will probably lie.

To find out right now may be hard because your hands are tied in so many ways. You cannot follow her or him. That would look like stalking. But what about using a PI? Do you know the OM’s phone number, place of work, home address, etc?

Do you have a key to the house? Do you know if you wife will be away for a day or more?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is she telling the truth and I am just going to damage the M even more but hunting deeper? …. Do I confront (can't find a better word) ask her to stop the A, pretending I know all about it?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would not confront her yet. You need some solid proof. As you know a WS will deny everything even in the face of concrete evidence. So you need to be VERY sure of this before you do anything.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right now it appears as though she has it all. If she is indeed haveing an A, she also the kids, the house and I am giving her money every two weeks (for food for the kids and for gas for her Jeep) - she doesn't work.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure it looks like she has it all… but it also seems like she is not very happy… is very conflicted from all you tell. And don’t kid yourself, taking care of the kids is work. Stay home moms do not just play all day despite what most of the rest of the world thinks. She has to with those kids 24/7 when they are with her.

Some people might look at you and say that you have it made… you are free now with now wife and not kids. All you have to do is to throw them some money and you are done. Then when you do have the kids you get to be the ‘vacation dad’. They will learn to love you and think you are the cat’s meow because when they are with you it’s all fun. When they are with their mom it’s just boring, normal life. At this point in my child rearing career I’d be glad to trade places with my step-kids ‘vacation mom’. She has it made.. she’s the mother from hell (drug use, alcohol use, gross child negligent and endangerment, and abuse). But now my stepdaughter only sees her for vacation. They have a blast. My H and I are the boring, mean parents to make her clean her room, do the dishes and do her homework.

You see it’s all in the eyes of the beholder.

Thanks Zorweb and Yizzl,
My reply is very long, and I wanted to make sure I understood your valuable insights.

Yizzl said...
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For instance, I’m angry and irritated at my SO, then he does something or says something that makes me soft and comfortable, and then I feel angry at myself for “almost forgetting” what he’s done and decide to “remind him” of it and lash out again.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's great to hear a woman admit that. Until recently, I thought women were crazy because of how they constantly change their minds. The H of the couple I'm staying with told me that his W once said to him, I need to back away from you, I'm getting to close and allowing you to be too close and I'm still angry.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Admiration -- as she made it quite clear by making several references to it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am truly blind to that one. Where was I missing that?

Zorweb said...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The idea of Plan A if for you to be the best husband you can be.. so that she starts to see you in a new light, starts missing you (more), and you start to look better than the OM. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is the purpose of MDI, the Men's team I am with: "To inspire every man to be the man he always wanted to be so that his love of humanity will drive him to leave a legacy that assures the success of future generations." As we say, "To be the best husband, father and man that we can be."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are learning to not have to interject your input and opinion into everything. You are learning to listen to her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm becoming a good listener by not trying to fix her. This is something my Men's team has told me in the past. It gets difficult for me when she directs her anger my way with her words. I must remain neutral and let her have her say. As John Gray puts, "Master the art of ducking and dodging."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also saw something in there that she was giving you. When she had a problem, whom did she come to? YOU. That is a complement. She still sees you as the one person who will help her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So that is part of Plan A? Being there for her for whatever she needs, if she asks? Don't offer until asked though, right?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> At this point do not ask her about her needs. There are some that you can already guess at… honesty, admiration, affection, conversation and recreation </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So I should listen for her needs and respond accordingly? How will I know the difference between her testing me to see if I'll interfere or offer unsolicited advice, and whether or not she really needs me for something? Many women do have the tendancy to not ask for what they want and want their SO to guess.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Honesty … when you talk to her on the phone be honest. If you can offer her something she can use to check up on you. This puts everything out in the open. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Today, I let her know that I was going to lunch with a collegue of mine (male) that she knows. And that if needed to reach me to call me on my cell phone and not in my office. She never did call me though. I don't have any problems with her checking up on me. She said in the past that she doesn't want to have to play detective, and that unless she had a camera on me 24 hours a day, she wouldn't really know what I was up to. I can understand that. My problem is staying consistent with this. Ex: I would call her and let her know I was leaving work 10 minutes late because I'm in a meeting with my boss. I eventually stopped this because the 10 minutes grew to 20, 30 an hour, and I felt like I was guilty of something everytime I would call her to readjust the time. I know I will have to set proper boundaries on this if I get back with my W.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Tell her that it’s ok for her to talk to the OW or check out anything she wants to. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She spoke to the OW 18 months ago when I first confessed. Would she beleive anything the OW said at this point? I shouldn't think so. I wouldn't beleive anything the OM said to me. On other point with this, I have not been fully honest with my W about the A. Before you blast me on this, I told my wife the truth about the length and why, but never the wheres and whats. I did tell her the length of the A, but the start and end dates are off by a couple of months. Everytime I wanted to confess the whole truth, I wnated to do it in our therapist's office. She said I could tell her anything without the therapist. When I would try, it turned onto a full arguement even before I got the first words out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Admiration … Every time you talk to her tell her something that you admire about her. Tell her she is a good mother. That she looks great. Thank her if she does anything for you . etc.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is probably the most difficult one for me. That doesn't mean I won't try though. Throughout our R, when I would compliment her or comment with favor on something she did, or how she was being, I would receive no response, or a nasty comment that I wasrong, or some other remark which took the wind out of my sails. After this type of reaction occured 3 times, I usually gave up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Affection… You do not want to be romantic right now. So acknowledge things like birthdays etc with a nice card. Write a note telling her how you think she is special (more admiration). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When it comes to writing notes/cards, she's been ripping them up and tossing them in my face for the past five years - ever since she first suspected that I was having an A. She also doesn't like my notes because she feels I should be able to talk with her, not through writing. Before the A, she loved the cards and notes I wrote. She always told me that I picked out the best cards.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Recreational activities/ conversation: Phone calls maybe the only way you can do this right now… If she is down then listen to her talk about her day. DO NOT give any advice.. only say that you understand that it is making her feel badly but that you know she will overcome it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, problem with the notes.
Asking her out; I want to. I just don't want to hear/listen to all the reasons why she won't. Of course I know, this means being a good listener again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If she ever needs help with something then offer to help. Email her meaningful jokes or story items about things she is interested in. Write her letters and emails that bare your inner soul to her (just don’t get too heavy). You could also ask you wife if she wants to go out.. something small .. a walk, coffee, what ever. She may do it. Just what ever you do, do not ask her for a ‘date’. (LOL)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So unless she asks specifically, don't offer solutions or advice. But let her know I'm here if she needs me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Domestic Support: Help with the kids as much as you can. ... So just offer to take care of them every time you can. Offer to take them to the doc. Etc.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These are excellent ideas.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do not contact the OM right now.. not until you know the score. And even then only in the way MB suggests. Right how he will probably lie. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't you think if she talks to the OW right now, she'll think she is lying as well?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you know the OM’s phone number, place of work, home address, etc? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I do. We became friends when my W and I joined the gym. Partly because I knew she was interested in him. He knows the whole deal with my W and I from both of us.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you have a key to the house? Do you know if you wife will be away for a day or more?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, she changed the locks when she filed the TRO against me. Why do you ask about her being away?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sure it looks like she has it all… but it also seems like she is not very happy… is very conflicted from all you tell. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She sounds depressed to me on the phone. She was very sad (don't know if that is the correct description) when she said that she didn't have any plans for the kids for the holiday.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And don’t kid yourself, taking care of the kids is work. Stay home moms do not just play all day despite what most of the rest of the world thinks. She has to with those kids 24/7 when they are with her.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believe me, I know that. For as long as we have been parents, when people would ask me if my W works, I would tell them, "Yes, she is a wife and a mother, and she doesn't get paid enough."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Some people might look at you and say that you have it made… you are free now with now wife and not kids. All you have to do is to throw them some money and you are done. Then when you do have the kids you get to be the ‘vacation dad’. They will learn to love you and think you are the cat’s meow because when they are with you it’s all fun. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In previous post I mentioned that my W wants me stop giving the kids toys, gifts, etc. because it makes her look bad. I can understand this, and it has been difficult to find things to do for them because...
A - I don't have my own place for them to enjoy themselves.
B - It has rained every Sunday that I have had them, except for the last two.
Therefore, I give them little things: going to the movies, museums, play places, toy or two, etc. I do my best to discipline them, and let them know that there are rules as well around Daddy as well.
BTW, when my W was working, she used to buy them clothes and toys with some of her earnings. Meanwhile, I didn't because I was trying to keep a roof over our head and food on our plates.

That's all for now.

Thanks again to both of you for your caring, and the time and effort you've placed in me. It is truly appreciated.

Have a Fantastic Fourth.
TTSMM

WARNING –WARNING
There is some whining in this post!!!!

I have the kids for the entire 4th of July weekend. We have some great things planned: swimming pool, fireworks, my men’s team picnic, etc. We spent Friday at the pool for five and a half hours. I felt jealous and envious of all the couples and families that had a Mom and Dad present. Every time I saw a pretty woman, or any woman for that matter, I thought about my W and how I wished she was by my side right now.
While at the pool my D asked me about my flag shirt. I told her I got it on St. Marten’s with Mommy before she was born. That brought back some good memories.

We had gone on a sail boat race earlier. Afterwards, we found a secluded beach and caressed each other as the waves splashed against us. It was very sensual and romantic. I had a great time being with the woman I love. We floated in the water embracing each other.
With the Forth of July and fireworks, I remembered a few New Years ago, the fireworks show held in town. It was at the local high school. When midnight struck, the fireworks went off. The kids stayed in the car and fell asleep, being way past their bedtime. But, we sat on top of the Jeep and watched the sky light up in beautiful colors.

What went wrong in our M?????

The kids and I went to a fireworks show near my friend’s house, but I missed having my W there as did the kids. Afterwards, we went for a bite to eat. Mommy did not call that evening.

Today, Saturday, my W called at 6:00 PM Saturday. It was 30 hours since she last spoke to the kids. In the past, she complained that I did not really care for the kids because I wouldn’t call every night when I was away. Now, she was doing the same thing. Is this part of a clue to her having an A?

My W call to let me know I have a bunch of mail and that she needs to see an eye doctor. She was asking for my help to get to the website. Also she was saying that she never got the lawn mowed. I volunteered, since I would be dropping the kids off Sunday evening. Maybe, I jumped to be supportive too quick.
When I called her later she told me that I did not have to mow the lawn, she got her girlfriend’s son to do it later this week. She said she was calling to let me know that because in the past I would blow up at the slightest thing, and she didn’t want to get into an argument about this tomorrow. I told her I appreciate her letting me know. “Does that mean that you agree with me that you are an abusive man?” I didn’t even get a chance to answer that one, before she was off and running onto something else.

She brought something about our D and I let her know that she is doing a good job with her. At a pool party I brought the kids to yesterday, our D was upset because she didn’t get any free toys, like other kids were. I told her to go to the table and ask for one. She got all upset saying, “No, I have to earn it.” I was impressed and surprised by this remark. For a seven year old, she is very mature. I knew Mommy had a deep influence on this and that is why I commented in a favorable light – ADMIRATION?

Subject changed again (as it so often quickly does) to her friends. She told me that she used to have a lot of friends when she was growing up. Now she only has one. She used to have people “adoring her”. “People have their own agenda and will use you and have you buying into their ideas. Then she said she hoped that my friend, Steve, whose family I am staying with for now, is different. I didn’t get a chance to answer that one either.
“Women are disappointed when their women friends turn them down. But she’ll keep trying. It’s not about giving things; it’s about being there for each other.

Somewhere in this conversation she mentions that she is forgiving and then changes it to empathetic. Throughout the entire conversation when she tells me how much pain I caused her, I tell her I know, sincerely, and that I am sorry. Never once did I put any blame on her.

Then she talks about wishing she only had one child. She knew that she could only handle one child, because she grew up with siblings all close in age, and I did not. She is tired of the kids constantly fighting and hitting each other. Didn’t get a chance to comment on this either.

She then went on about how great our D is: generous, outgoing, etc. Meanwhile, she felt she was a screw up a year ago because she was constantly forgetting her clothes at school and losing them. With our S, she is at a lose. She doesn’t know how to handle him and she hopes he’ll grow out of it.

Changes gears again.
She tells me she knows where she made mistakes with me. She understands how she drove me up a wall. She said she was trying to make me her girl friend. “Men don’t care about gossip. Women do and emote and can’t understand why men don’t.” She told me about a book she is reading, “How to Select a Man.” (Wrong title). It’s a guide book for how to indulge a man. One thing is not trying to fix them, she said. The mistakes she made were a female thing. She knows she should give men praise.

She saw SAA in my car when I came to pick up the kids. I had left it there intentionally so she could see. Backfired. She thinks I am reading it because I am still thinking about the OW or some other woman. She then continued about the pic she found in my day runner, five years ago, of a young (legal) naked woman. Then brought other past women I knew before her, and that I am probably going to go back to them right now. “You always have someone waiting in the wings”, she said.

That was it. I could not take being a doormat anymore. This doormat wasn’t only being stepped on; he was being pulled apart thread by thread. I blew it and started defending myself. It makes my blood was boil to hear her keep talking and for me to keep my mouth shut. So much for conversation. It now became adversarial, particularly from her end. It’s as though she found a weak spot and kept attacking it.

“If you had have been upfront with me about your parents about how they were, I would not have always been trying to prove you wrong.” Again, she’s always trying to be my teacher. She resents me for me loving my parents as I did. She thought it was false love. “Why did you love them?” she asked. I tried to answer and was interrupted again.

New subject. How she’s screwed up picking the wrong men. “I look but I don’t see. This is indicative of people who have been molested when they were younger”, she said. Then she told me all about the OM, and the bad things about him and how he is screwed up. I found it very hard NOT to believe her. I am still not convinced she is having an A. But I told her how jealous I am about the thought of her being in his arms. She couldn’t understand that. “Why.” “Because I still love you.” She still couldn’t understand that.

Then a good comment.
“You don’t have to lie. People will love you for who you are”, she about me. Then she goes 180 on me, “You hate women because they hurt you.” 180 again – she acknowledged that she hurt me by trying to change me. She brought up my past blowups, but then 180, takes responsibility for pushing my buttons.

I can’t stand that she can bring up all the past crap I did and says, “You should have known better.” But, it is OK that she is learning right now through her book and friends; and I should have known better to start.

Enough was enough. “<wife’s name>, if we do not treat each other with respect when we have conversations, then from now on all communication for kids, money, etc., will be through my friends Steven and Kim”, I said. Is this the beginning of Plan B? I then told her stop telling me how I feel. “No one is going to tell me how I feel or how to feel”, I said. It went back and forth. Again, I asked for future conversations to be respectful.

This went on for a while. I had said that I was taking the kids out and finally said that the call was over, leaving it on neutral note. I let her know that I did want to continue the conversation and that what she had to say was important to me. We’ll see.

After the call, I was full of so much anger; I lost it with the kids. I wanted to find some place I could go and scream at the top of my lungs. I was yelling at the kids because the B lost his shoe in the house and didn’t want to look for it. Of course, it didn’t help that I was screaming at him.

I took the kids out to dinner and throughout the drive and meal I felt depressed. I thought I might need to see my Dr. about some Anti-D’s. During dinner I tried to calm down and had to stop myself from crying in front of the kids. At the restaurant, there was a very pretty hostess and I my mind went, “Screw it, my W doesn’t want to work on this, why do I even bother. There are other women out there.” Then I stop and I look that it is worth it. During dinner, I had a panic attack – shortness of breath, heart racing, pains in my stomach and chest). But at first, I thought I was being over dramatic with myself, but I still have twinges as I write this post. I felt these pains all through the drive home.

I really f’d up this royally. She was moving in the right direction, then attacks me, and pushes the wrong button. I got impatient and first defend myself and then try to control her behavior with me.

I am too tired to write anymore. As I’m sure you’re tired of reading this too.

TTSMM

TTSMM,

Hi, I just wanted to stop by and let you know that I'm not ignoring you. Sometimes posting takes a lot energy and I just do not have it right now. I need some sleep.

It seems you are doing fairly well. Just keep up the Plan A stuff. It sounds like it might be getting through.

Zorweb,
I don't think you are ignoring me. Believe me, I know how much energy goes into posting. I usually write in Word, proof, spell check, re-write, cut & paste back and add the graemlins.

I had a great rest of the weekend, but I did make a mistake, I feel.

When I brought back the kids on Sunday, my W commented because on why our D was wearing her red & white dress, but I had her in pink socks. She got agitated and I promised myself that I would remain calm. Well I got upset and I walked into our house (univited) and told her that I was allowed back in anytime I wanted, and I could get a locksmith and she could call the police right now if she wanted.
I calmed down (note: I wasn't screaming or yelling or using abusive langauge, I just feel my actions were not good for the R). I proceeded to help with things around the house. The PC was not working so I was fixing her Internet access. While I was there I checked to see what type of websites and whether or not she was accessing email, but found nothing. I stayed for a good half hour.
I told I wanted to be back in the house so I could read to the kids at night and tuck them in to bed. I told her that I would stay in the basement and only use the master bath when she wasn't there. I asked her to not answer now, but to give it some thought.
I know this was a harsh move, but when I came in she was not frightened or upset, more stunned, but that's not the right word either.

Anyway, yesterday, Monday, she called me for help with directions to the beach. She was going with her girlfriend and the kids. So I was happy to give her support.

Tonight I am going to the singles, separated, divorced, widowed meeting, but it's going to be my last. Last week these folks were SO depressing. I had told them about the MB website when it was my turn to share about how I was doing. Not one person there worte down the address. When the other people shared, they were bitter and angry (rightfully so). At the end, one woman talked about a site to help you with your divorce. They could not write down the site quick enough.
Just my own stuff here, I know. It is just amazing how these people say they will never marry again, they don't trust anymore, they didn't do anything wrong themselves (ENs), etc.

I am defintely the odd one out here, being the only person there who is the WS. Although, I wonder on the honesty level in this room.

Anyway, thanks for listening (reading).
TTSMM

I hope things are going better for you. I definetly know what your wife is going through. My husband and I have 2 children 4yr & 6 months. The first time he cheated on me I was very hurt, couldn't beleive he did it. It made me remember all the obvious lies he had been telling me. It made me mad at myself for being so blind. Like your wife I had also confronted my husband and the woman. Both lied about it. You definetly need to give your wife time. The scariest thing when your spouse has an affair is the thought of them doing it again, and feeling like you wouldn't be able to go if thet did. The first affair my husband had he blamed on me and I didn't leave him. I tried to forgive him. It will be very hard for your wife to forgive you. And trust me she will never forget it. For me my worst nightmare has come true and I found out my husband has been chaeting on me through our entire marriage. But, if you are honest with your wife. Talk to her when you are having problems. Be careful what you say, so you don't make her think of the affair(because I'm sure it is eating away at her everyday). Mabye she will be able to slowly let you back in. You should try talking to her about your children. It is ridiclous she has not let you see them. The problem is between you and her, not the children. I'm sure they are going through enough with the seperation. Good luck and remember try to be very sensitive to your wife feelings. I will be praying for your marriage to work out.

Hi,

Just wanted to send you a quick "hello" ... I was out of town for a few days ... and then I'm having major stress going on in my own life (work related) and didn't get around to reading any postings or writing any.

I haven't forgotten about you though.
I actually like reading what you have to say and where you go "wrong" and what you think and how you feel because it gives me a backdoor into my SO's mind and where he's coming from as well.

Read you later.

SadEyes,
Thanks for your words and encouragement.

I think I might have misconveyed some info in my posts.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You should try talking to her about your children. It is ridiclous she has not let you see them. The problem is between you and her, not the children. I'm sure they are going through enough with the seperation. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do see the children. It's been one day a week for the first five weeks that we were separated. Now, the last two weeks, I have had them overnight. We have not set anything down legally or otherwise on what the visitation should be. I don't want to push the point beacuse it might sound like divorce proceedings.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You definetly need to give your wife time.

if you are honest with your wife. Talk to her when you are having problems. Be careful what you say, so you don't make her think of the affair(because I'm sure it is eating away at her everyday). Mabye she will be able to slowly let you back in. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am trying my best to be patient, most men are not. I go after a goal and "the ends justify the means". That won't work in this situation. I know she needs time and she is SLOWLY moving. I just miss her and kids terribly <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> and I want to be in the house so we can communicate and I can take care of the kids (tuck them in a night, read to them, play with them, etc).

Since I am the breadwinner, (I'm not being chauvanistic here), I was very dependent on my W for taking care of me (cooking, laundry, etc.). Being out on my own, I have had to take care of things myself. When I dropped off the kids last and I told her I wanted to come back into the house, I also told her I would take care of all my own cooking, laundry, etc. I know, I would also make it point to still take care of myself after the M is resolved.

Yzzil (sorry about misspelling your name throughout my replies),
I'm glad my misery gives you insight <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I actually like reading what you have to say and where you go "wrong" and what you think and how you feel because it gives me a backdoor into my SO's mind and where he's coming from as well. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It feels good to know that my experiences, good and bad, can help others in their trials.

S & Y,
I hope things improve for both of you as well. I'll check your posts later.

Side note:
I feel I have benefitted greatly by being able to post in this forum for the past month. I am one of the webmasters for my men's team, MDI, website, and yesterday I started creating a bulletin board for them so we discuss and support eachother as well. This is great tool.

God Bless and Keep You in His Care Always!
TTSMM

TTSMM,

It sounds like you have been doing well considering. Do keep us posted.

I know I must be patient <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> , it's just SO difficult. My W called me today to see about me and the kids this weekend. My friends are staying home, so there is no overnight for the kids. I will probably go to the pool and cycling in the park with them, as well as church on Sunday.

Our conversation was breif and she did not bring up anything about my request to move into the basement (last Sunday). I don't know if she is mulling it over, or if she decided 'No' and doesn't want to tell me, or whatever. It's driving me nuts.

In SAA, I am on the "Rule of Protection". I thought the concept about Respectful Persuasion, was great.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You begin by respecting the belief your spouse already has and understanding why your spouse believes it. Then you suggest an alternative belief that you think will be in your spouse's best interest and not just your own best interest. Finally, if your spouse is willing, you may need to do a test to prove your point. This may allow your spouse to see how useful the alternative belief can be. But in the final analysis, regardless of your evidence, the choice to change beliefs should be completely up to your spouse.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is amazingly powerful, considerate and loving.

I want to see how I can rephrase my request to move into the basement, using this technique. Then again, as I mentioned above, I should probably give her more time. Any thoughts?

This week I have been avoiding calling her, waiting instead for her to call me. I know I shouldn't talk about the relationship, but talk about other things. I am fearful of (as well as tired of) the conversation (any conversation) resulting into a rehash of the A and what a sc*mb*g I am. I tossed between dealing with her and fulfilling the her? EN for conversation and feeling like a doormat.

I have been in TRO mode even after it was vacated. By that I mean, I don't contact her OR THE KIDS. Well, after this weekend I am changing that. I am going to ASK my wife to let me know when the kids are going to bed. Before they go to bed I will call them and talk to them and ask how they are doing? This will enrich my R with the kids and I will be a better father. If my W sees it that result as well, great, but I cannot control that.

I have to get back to work.

TTSMM

Zorweb/Yzzil/Cerri/SandD/SadEyes/anyoneelse,
I have the kids again for both days this weekend. This time though I don't have room for them; my friends are not going away. So, I pickup and dropoff on Sat., and the same on Sun.

Today, I had fun with the kids: pool, another friend's house, but it was short because I was suppose to see my SIL for dinner. She cancelled so I called my W for a little extra time to be with the kids (1 hour). After the one hour, my D and friend's D decided to watch a movie. I contemplated calling my W because this would be another 30 minutes+. I didn't and literally 1 minute past the hour, my W calls me wanting to know what was going on. I told her and she was fine/OK, I guess.
After dropping the kids off, she calls me on the cell. She was telling me about our S having diaper rash, etc. I told thankyou for calling me and letting me know I undersatnd and appreciate it.
W -Why is it you understand me with these things, and agree with me, but you never agree with me about your sexual addiction? The reason I called before was because I wanted to know where the kids were. With a man with your illness I think you might touch the kids.
Me - I would never do something like that.
W - You had better not. I warned them about you.

This is the sick s**t I have to deal with. I have finally gotten to the point where her "button pushing" doesn't bother me. She talks about my parents (see previous posts); about my sexuality, about my teeth. I have been aboe to let it roll off with little or no reaction from me. Except that I understand why she feels this way and I appreciate her letting me know.
But today, when she spouted that garbage, and ended the call with, "On that note, goodnight." I saw red <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> . How is a man suppose to (or a woman for that matter) put up with such insane comments. Being a doormat is one thing, being verbally abused and her sharing her f'd up concerns with our 7yr old D is too much.
When I got off the phone I decided I am going back into the house, whether she likes it or not. There is no court order against me keeping me out. So, on this Wed I am suppose to take her to the dentist (see previous post). I am calling a lock smith and having the locks changed. I am then moving into the basement. She is not going to poison our kids because of her screwed up paranoia.

Any comments/suggestions/etc. are welcomed/appreciated/requested.

I will continue to post.

TTSMM

TTSMM,

You are doing so well in so many ways. But there is this weird stuff she does… argh….. I do have a solution for you though…..

First, if you are going to move back into the basement of your home, I think it wise to let your attorney know. Be ready for her to call the police too. She will be furious if you come in while she is gone. Not that you do not have the right. But because she has a distorted view of the world. Also be careful of her making it look like you were violent.

A few days ago I asked you about you knowing when she was going to be gone for a while. My thought was that you could have a lock smith meet you at the house and you go through it looking for proof of her having an on going affair. Just make sure that if you do this she is not going to walk in and catch you… am afraid of violence breaking out.

Now about the accusations about molesting your children. I have found that the best way to handle something like this is head-on. She thinks there is a problem with you. You think there is a problem with her. You are concerned about your children being told things that are not true about you. Well then, you have to address this. You need to get some outside help. If I were you, I’d get a counselor to help you with this issue. They need to see you, your children and your wife (if she will participate). Did this with my ex. The counseling went on for 2 years. He said I was a bad mom and was very smug that any counselor would see that. So I left it up to the counselors.. in the end the counselors had a say in our custody evaluation.. they said that he had a very bad relationship with our son. He is emotionally/verbally abusive. They recognized that. He had to go to counseling for 2 more years to earn one more day a week with our son. They gave him less time then I was going to.

Then once you set up the counseling, I’d write you wife an letter or email to let her know you are taking her seriously. I know she does not like letters any more but that’s just too bad. She cannot control everything. You have something to tell her and she has got to listen. A letter is the best way. And of course do thing in the most caring, loving way you can. You are learning to not let her push your buttons. Now learn the skill of diplomacy… it’s not a love buster to address and important issue firmly.

Dear wife,

You asked me why I agree with you one some things but not on the issue of whether or not I have a sexual addiction.

I agree with you on many things because you are often right and where we do not agree, it does not matter in most things. Your way or my way are both right.

As for what you call my sexual addiction. There was a time in my life when I did not understand many things. I did not understand the harm that pornography would do to our marriage. I did not understand that about strip joints, (list it all) either. I was a young man who had always been told that these were a man’s peragotive no matter what his wife says. I know realize that I was sold a bill of goods. That I hurt you with these things.

I also know that I tried to experiment in some ways that you did not like. I apologize for those. I was wrong.

I had an affair. It was the most horrible thing I could have ever done to you. I beat myself up daily for this and everything else I have done wrong.

But the question about whether or not I have a sexual addition. The label is really not important. I have pursued this and found that I can find as many people to hang that label on me as not. What is important is that I stop the offending behaviors. I have done that. I know now that these things are not a man’s prerogative. I know now what I did to our marriage and am horrified to know that was me.

But, and it’s a huge but. I have never indulged in anything to do with child pornography and/or child molestation (TTSMM.. I assume you will only say this if it is true.) I am horrified that you would even suggest that I would harm my own children. But I want to deal with your fears in a healthy manner.

I am very concerned for the mental health of our children. Your warning them about me is wrong. Certainly children have to be taught proper boundaries. But warn them about me??? I am concerned. So I am doing what any concerned parent and spouse would do when their family is in trouble. I am getting counselor to help us deal with this. I have set up appointments with (give name of counselor) on (give date of first session). This way I can work on having a healthy relationship with our children and our children can learn proper boundaries. I hope that you will join us in these sessions as a family approach to this is preferable. You and I have to learn to affectively co-parent our children.

Love,
TTSMM

I am so tired of writing.
Today I had the kids and it wasn't fun. I took them cycling and they complained and I yelled at them. I was standing outside myself shocked and I didn't stop.

I am feeling very depressed. I can't stand the pain I am going through. Why didn't she just divorce me at he time when she found out? All for a f'in house that we are going to lose anyway if we divorce?

I took the kids for ice cream to try and make up for my outbursts. Our S wanted ice cream and only took one bite. Our D ate half, maybe. Again, I got upset but I just was quiet and sad. An elderly woman behind us, commented about how intelligent our D was, reading, etc. Then she asked me if I was OK? I lied and said "Yes".

At the pool, it was OK. But the pool is becoming difficult. I have EN's and it is difficult to see very attractive women in bathing suits. I want to be with my wife at the pool, not looking at everybody else. Btw, the most important EN for me is ADMIRATION. (I'll give you my full list later on).

After the time at the pool on the I asked our D about what Mommy has been telling her. About me ever touching her. She said, "Daddy, I know in my heart that you would never do that." It was all I could do to hold back the tears. My W has me questioning my actions around our D. I came from a very touchy feely family. Nothing was ever done that would be considered inappropriate. My W came from a family that couldn't/wouldn't express love, physically or verbally. In church, our D stands in fornt me, and wraps my arms around her. I find myself keeping my hands straight and not touching her, for fear of what might be thought later. If I didn't mention it in earlier posts, my W was "fingered" by her cousin when she was 7 or 8 years old. In the past she's told me that it did not affect her. I think otherwise. Then she'll say, "After what happened to me, you know you should never have had an A.".

I brought the kids home and didn't say a word to my W and she didn't say anything to me either. She didn't call later on either.

After playing some tennis, to relieve my stress and get out some agretion? I went home. I need to see a doctor for some anti-D's. I was driving double the speed limit on some curves I defintely shouldn't have. I actually asked God to give me a heart attack because I can't take the pain anymore. I haven't slahed my wrists yet, but in the past, just after the A was over, I took about 12 tylenol in a laughable attempt as an overdose. I am going to sleep now, crying from the pain inside.

Zorweb,
I am considering all you wrote and will rewrite your letter (some things I don't agree with). I have to find a new atty, as I am firing my present one (she hasn't returned any phone calls in over three weeks).

I'm sorry, this is coming off as whining. I feel completely lost. I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. I don't think I'll do anything stupid to myself (or anyone else) but my thoughts about my life are very depressing).

I'll post soon.
ttsmm

TTSMM,

I’m sorry you had such a bad weekend. Kids are just like that. And when we are in a state it’s just not easy to deal with. They expect us to be perfect so they can be kids. It’s hard I know.

Are you having trouble sleeping?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am considering all you wrote and will rewrite your letter (some things I don't agree with). I have to find a new atty, as I am firing my present one (she hasn't returned any phone calls in over three weeks).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely rewrite it, that’s the idea. Mine was just to get your thoughts going. It does sound like you need new attorney. Argh!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry, this is coming off as whining. I feel completely lost. I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. I don't think I'll do anything stupid to myself (or anyone else) but my thoughts about my life are very depressing).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The antidepressants will go a long way to help you.

Hang in there. Time will take care of a lot of this.

Zorweb,
Here is the re-write thus far. I have a doctor's appt, new doctor, for next Wed. I think I will OK until then for the anti-D's. I fired my atty, by phone, on her answering machine. She didn't answer the phone again, so I'm fed up with her.

Will post later.

Dear wife,

I am writing you a note because when we try to have a conversation too many boundaries are crossed and we end up arguing.

You asked me why I agree with you on some things but not on the issue of whether or not I have a sexual addiction.

I agree with you on many things because you are often right and where we do not agree, it does not matter in most things. Your way or my way, are both right.

As for what you call my sexual addiction. There was a time in my life when I did not understand many things. I did not understand the harm that pornography would do to our marriage. I did not see any harm in doing these things because I knew nothing was going to sway my love for you. I did not understand at the time that strip joints, Internet chats, the videos, and the magazines would hurt you so deeply either. I wish you had come to me with compassion and conversation and explained to me that you did not want me to do these things because of how they would make you feel about me. You came off as controlling in my eyes. But, the horrible things I did were by my own actions. Having left my mother’s home, I was a young man who was not going to be controlled, or told what to do, no matter what his wife says. I was told that you were trying to control me and that as the man-of-the-house, I had a right to do whatever I wanted to. I now realize that I was sold a bill of goods. That I hurt you, the woman I promised to love, honor and cherish, by doing these things.

I also know that I tried to experiment in some ways that you did not like. I apologize for those and I was wrong.

I had an affair. It was the most horrible thing I could have ever done to you. I beat myself up daily for this and everything else I have done wrong. I take 100% responsibility for the affair. I also take 50% responsibility for the condition of our marriage that drove me closer to the affair.

But the question about whether or not I have a sexual addition. The label is really not important. I have pursued this and found that I can find as many people to hang that label on me as not, both professional and non. What is important is that I stop the offending behaviors. I have done that. I know now that these things are not a man’s privilege. I know now what I did to our marriage and am sickened to know that was me five years ago.

But, and it’s a huge but. I have never indulged in anything to do with child pornography and/or child molestation and I am appalled that you would even suggest that I would harm my own children. But I want to deal with your fears in a healthy manner.

I am very concerned for the mental health of our children, as I know you are. Your warning them about me is wrong. Certainly children have to be taught proper boundaries. But warn them about me??? I am concerned. So I am doing what any concerned parent and spouse would do when their family is in trouble. I am getting a counselor to help us deal with this. I have set up appointments with (give name of counselor) on (give date of first session). This way I can work on having a healthy relationship with our children and our children can learn proper boundaries. I hope that you will join us in these sessions as a family approach to this is preferable. You and I have to learn to affectively co-parent our children.

Love,
TTSMM

<small>[ July 15, 2003, 08:01 AM: Message edited by: tryingTOsaveMYmarriage ]</small>

I called my D at 7:45 tonight like I had promised her. She was happy to hear my voice as was I to hear hers. She told me about her day, it did not include the pool, it rained earlier. She had to get off the phone though because Mommy wanted to speak to me. She sounded terrible. She had her usual bout with a cold that includes achiness and larangytis.
She ran out of diapers and was wondering if I had any money. I told I didn't.
W - Do you have diapers in your car, and could you bring them in the morning?
Me - I'll bring them now. Do you need anything else.
W - No.
Me - Do you need any asprin, juice, etc.?
W - OK, asprin.
This goes on for a bit. I had to ask her what she wanted. I had to ask her her needs.

Got off the phone and drove down; it is a 45-minute drive. On the way down, she called because she needed ointment for S's diaper rash. OK. So I go to the store to pick up the items, had to go to second store to get the right juice. I figure/hope I am gathering points for this, fulfilling her EN's. Which one does this fulfil?
When I get there I also hand her a check for $300 for the two weeks.
W - What am I suppose to do with this?
Me - Deposit it into your account.
W - I don't have an account.
Me - Yes you do.
W - No I don't.
I remind her about the time she told me about her nest egg account. I did not tell her what bank or how much was in it, $1800.
W - Oh that money is gone. I used it to pay the lawyer.
Me - <wife's name>, you used our income tax check to pay the lawyer. That was over $2000. How much was the lawyer? Mine was $1500.
W - I don't know. I need you to give me cash.
And she handed me back the check. I told her to bring it to a check cashing place and she said they only cash business checks. I took the check back. I don't think I should give her cash. She can open an account if she needs to. I feel I need to keep track of how much I give her if a traceable fashion. Any suggestions?

I saw my D for about 2 minutes, she was still awake at 9:00 pm. My W asked me to come in to fix the PC. But I told her I had to get home, it is a long drive. She wanted me to fix the PC now so I wouldn't come into the house on this Wednesday, when I bring her back from the dentist. I know this because she told me earlier that I could just drop her home after the dentist. But, I told her no, that I would fix the PC at that time. Yes, I was controlling the situation, but, I am still contemplating going back into the house, with or without her blessing.
When I left, she said "Thank you for coming down and getting me these things."

A couple of things from this recent encounter.
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I supported her when she was ill.
  I kept asking questions of how I could help and what she needed.
  She "seemed" appreciative.
  If she was/is having an A, the OM could have dropped off these things on her doorstep, if he cared. Unless she was afraid of nosey neighbors. There is always the backdoor/garage.
  She is lying about her account and the lawyer's fees. By doing the math, her lawyer cost her $3800 and he was terrible.
  Why is she lying to me? What is she trying to cover up?</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now some new questions.
</font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do I still pursue moving back into the house?
  How I can I find out if she is lying about the money and about her A?
  How can I let her know about this site, MB, so she can come hear for support? This was a suggestion I saw in Zorweb's post to another WS earlier today.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't feel I can do anything effective by not being in the house. I can't do an affective Plan A. Am I wrong with this assumption? Since I don't even know if she is having an A, is doing a Plan A really worth it?
That's all for now.
TTSMM

Zorweb,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Are you having trouble sleeping? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I am. I am running myself ragged. I am usually online til midnight, checking my posts and others. I set the alarm for 4:50 AM so I can get to the gym and workout before work. The past four workdays I have not done this. I slept right through the alarm and yesterday was 2-1/2 hours late for work. They were/are cool with it though because they know what is going on with me. I stay the extra time to make up the hours (although I don't have to).

Then last night I went straight to my friends place and was going to work on cleaning up my room. I called my D and you know the rest from the previous posting. When I got back to my friends I ate some dinner and went online for a half hour - 45 minutes. I got to bed at midnight again. And slept through my alarm again.

Even on the weekend, with the kids, I am not getting sleep. I want to spend time with them, as much as possible, so I forgoe(?) sleep. And then I worry about the little time I have with them that it seems rushed.

To answer your question, No I am sleeping well at all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

TTSMM

TTSMM,

Thought so. It’s normal. One of the most important things to do right now is to take care of yourself. I’ve had the same problem for a good part of the last two year…. It has to do with both the affairs and the problems with my step kids.

Some kind soul told me about using Benadryl to help. I works wonders for me. So does Nyquil. It’s a lot cheaper then prescription sleeping pills. It also is non-addictive. Using something like this for a few days can help break the cycle.

Set a bedtime, take something to help half hour before if you need it and get some sleep. You will enjoy the time with you kids much more. Also they need a set bedtime. Young children need 9-10 hours of sleep a night. Make bedtime with them a special time. Get them in PJ’s early, then snack then read to them. Taking an a hour to 1.5 hours to do this is a wonderful bedtime ritual. (I cherished that time with my son.) It promotes bonding. And all of you will be much less cranky the next day. Nothing worse then sleep deprived kids. Not to mention sleep deprived parents.

This is easier said than done, I know. That’s why I’m giving you a bit of a shove in the right direction here.

Your letter looks good. Just make sure to fill in this part because as is it looks like you are using a form letter.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(give name of counselor) on (give date of first session).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’ll get back with more after work tonight.