Cerri,

Star*Fish recomened to me that I ask you for some help. I have a series of post listed under Not sure what to do anymore...Several people have responded very well. However a lot of the advice is in direct contrast to what our MC is telling me I should do.

Brief history Wife moved out basically in March, offically the end of April. Suspected she was seeing another man. That was confirmded a week ago Today(Sunday) I thought that would be the start of recovery, but she is still continuing to see him.

We have another session on Tuesday & I am not sure if Wife is going to come or not. She is currently with her family at their lake home. I am hoping that she will think about what she is doing. When I talked to her the last few times I have been trying to get her to stop seeing the OM & to give MC a fair shot. Since everything up to this point was a waste for our M. It has helped me become a better person, but the wife doesn't believe (or lack of faith) that some of the changes I have made are only to get her back. I think these are excusses but that is my opinion.

In the last few conversations that I have had with her it appears to me that she is thinking very materialistcly (sp) she is upset that we are both 30, & married for 5.5 years, know for 11 & no kids (thank god....considering)& that we do not have a house. She keeps comparing herself to other people that have that I speculate that she thinks that she is a failure that we do not have the same things.

On problem in that is that a am a recoverying money Drunk. I started my recovery back in March but started going to meetings in May. It feels good, but I do have a hole to get out of & I am slowly getting out. The OM has & is everything that I am not. He works MF, Good paying job (loan officer) is building a large house I guess, etc.... these are all things that she told me.

I think that is about it.....Thank you

Most marriage counselors are not trained to save your marriage. They are trained to help you "decide" if you or your spouse wants to stay married (which is pointless, because generally by the time you for counseling one of you has already decided to get out), and then they are trained to help you cope with the breakup.

Virtually no counselors understand how to recreate romantic love in marriage, which is the only thing that will guarantee you stay together.

Lots of couples go to counseling and learn to "communicate" better, learn how to resolve their conflicts, and the get along just fine. But because they are nothing more than friends and roommates..... because love is not restored.... they choose to divorce anyway.

A 1995 Consumer Reports study indicates that only 16% of those who go for marriage counseling are happy with the results. That's n 84% rate of customer dissatisfaction!

On my site ( www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com ) I have an article with a list of things you should ask before hiring a counselor or a coach, you might want to to check that out. It's at the bottom of the articles page.

Here is another article you might find interesting regarding marriage counseling, written by Dr. Bill Doherty who teaches marital therapy at the U of MN. It's lengthy but well worth the read.

http://www.smartmarriages.com/hazardous.html

And finally here are some quotes from Divorce Rememdy by Michele Weiner-Davis that discuss therapy, ethics and how to evaluate your counselor.

Quotes from Michele Weiner Davis' book, The Divorce Remedy:

From Chapter One: The Not So Great Escape / Sub Heading Well Meaning Therapists: (p31-33)

"Too many therapists give people the message that divorce is a reasonable solution when hopelessness exists....... The truth is no matter how many degrees a therapist might have, or how smart s/he might be, there is absolutely no way for a therapist to know when a marriage has reached a dead end." (emphasis in original text)

"But this doesn't stop many therapists from acting as if they have a crystal ball. (She goes on to cite common reasons therapists advocate for divorce)......Although these predicaments make marital repair more challenging, none of them is, by any means, a marital death sentence. Telling people that their marriage is doomed is, in my opinion, fortune telling at best and unethical at worst."

On how/why professionals' views may be slanted:

"To begin with, you need to know that first and foremost, therapists are people. No matter how well trained they may be, it's impossible for therapists to check their personal values, morals, and perspectives at the door at the start of a therapy session."

"For instance, therapists are trained to encourage people to pursue the parts of their lives that bring personal happiness and satisfaction, even if these goals are at odds with what's best for the marriage, the children, or even the individual in question in the long run. The therapist wants you to feel good and do whatever it takes to make that happen." (emphasis in original text)

From Chapter Six: Step Number 5 - Experiment and Monitor Results

Seeking a Therapist who is solution-oriented:
"Make sure your therapist has received specific training and is experienced in marital therapy........Marital therapy requires very different skills than doing individual therapy....... Couples therapists..... need to be skilled in helping people overcome the differences that naturally occur when two people live under the same roof."

"Make sure your therapist is biased in the direction of helping you find solutions to your marital problems rather than helping you leave your marriage when things get rocky."

"Don't let your therapist tell you that change is impossible. Human beings are amazing and they are capable of doing great things especially for the people they love."
~~~~~~~

I don't what your counselor is telling you that posters are objecting to, but I would be wary of any conventional m/c..... I have seldom seen an instance where it's been beneficial. And I have concerns about how helpful therapy is for a marriage in crisis....

Let me know if you have other questions about this or about your situation that I can help with.

All the best!
C

Ok, I read the other thread very quickly.... and here are links to two of my newsletters that you might want to read. They are both about infidelity:

http://www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com/images/March%202003%20eNL.pdf

http://www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com/images/April%202003%20eNL.pdf

If the links don't work, they are on the same page as the articles at my site.

You also referenced a little about your job, and that is something we should talk about in more depth. Your first and primary goal needs to be to end the affair, but following that the conditions that either led to the affair or that allowed it to flourish need to be adjusted.

C

cerri,

The specific advice that several of us gave was about not keeping the A in secrecy....exposing the affair to the light of day. His MC told him that if he told others....family, friends etc. about the A that it would hurt his marital recovery....that his wife would resent him and that his family would have trouble accepting her in the future. By my of thinking, if the affair doesn't end...there will be no recovery anyway. But the MC has been pretty specific about keeping this a secret.

Cerri,

Thank you for responding back to my post. I should tell you that my job has a huge role in the forward progress of our recovery. My Wife has not tried to end things with the OM, I feel that I have tried to negotiatie to the best of my ability to get her to stop seeing him. Her head is in such a fog that I feel that she thinks that the OM can do a better job then I. So is is in turmoil (I guess....this is what she says)

My job is an Airline Pilot so I have no choice to leave her alone for up to four days at a time. I mean we can talk on the phone & stuff, but I still am not with her when she would most likely call the OM up.

She also asked me "what is I do not want to work on saving the marriage?" I calmly said that I would accecpt that & that I would go talk to a lawyer but I would be hurt & sad. The way that I look at it is this like my spending problem once it came to my attention that I had an addiction (through our MC) I made the decesion on my own to seek help. I am now getting the help I need. She has to do the same thing with herself. I feel all that I can do is to be nice to her, not get anrgy with her, & not put her down for having the A. I still tell her that I love her & want to be with her. I talk more about recovery than D, & so on. I did tell my parents over the weekend about the A & my mom & sister weren't surprised, my dad was more dissapointed than surprised. They were very supportive, they did not put my wife down or talk about her in a bad way. They told me that all they wanted to be was happy & if that ment recovry than they would support me. That felt really good. I have been at great odds about tell my wife's family......Firnds that I have talked to have strongly suggested that I do not & that is up to my wife to tell them. & our MC said that it would come out at some point in the future.

That is all for now...If you need more I can write you more background as well.

Thank You

LostPilot

LP,

My husband isn't a pilot, but he worked in the oilfield a long time and we spent much of the first ten years of our marriage apart. Now he is in upper management, and still required to travel since his management area is North and South America. Both times that I know of (because I suspect there were probably more) that he was unfaithful occurred during our separations, so his job has impacted our marriage greatly. The husbands in the oilfield are not the only ones who are unfaithful, often wives left alone will turn to someone else as well. And pilots don't have the best reputation either LOL. My husband spent months away from home....once we had to live apart for a year waiting for a transfer because his work location was too dangerous for our family. It is a struggle, but we have survived.

When you reach recovery, it is possible to rebuild trust again....even if your job keeps you away from home in the future. For me, what helped was that my H opened his life up to me. Now, he makes sure that I see his cell phone bills, expense reports, I have the password to his computer and we have worked out a system of calling that makes me feel safer and helps him resiste the temptations that inevitably come with long separations. Hopefully, you and your wife will be able to come up with a plan that will make it bearable for you to work. In reality, she probably has some of the same concerns you have, and feels very neglected about spending so much time alone. Without changing jobs, are there some things you can do to minimize separation time, or is that just too unrealistic?

Star*Fish,

It is kinnda funny some of the things that you mentioned. The one nice thing about my job is that I might be away from home for up to three nights in a row, but when I am off I am off for 2 or more days in a row. My wife knows my schedule 1 month in advance & I always gave her a copy so that she would know where I was at all times. We would talk on the phone a lot as well. THe thing is that she would not do stuff with friends when I was home. Her choice...but now she is blamming me for that. We spent a lot of time toghether, but there were times when I should have spent time with her & I didn't(ie sunday mornings going to church) I am now going again on a regular basis. Thamks in part to this situation & my SA group. I am regaining my spiritatualy (sp) but my faith isn't quite there yet but I am trying. But because of my spending I took a second job usually when she worked, she works at a salon & works only part time, but @ night so we would spend the days together & then drive together to work (we worked very close to each other). So we spent & can spend a lot of time together when I am not flying.

Right now I suspect she is scared of giving up what she preceives as the perfect situation & come back to a marraige that is going to take a lot of work. I have told her that I can forgive her, etc... but it will take some work. She still calls me her best friend & can't imagine her life without me in it, so I am very confused I can only tell her so many times that we can't fix our problems until the OM is out of the picture. On Saturday when we spoke I thought that we kinnda deceide to not talk to each other, but on Sunday she called me 4 times. One of those times was at night to tell me that she was in the Emergency room for a migrain. It was to let me know for when I get the insurance paperwork. Like I said I just do not know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Lost Pilot
Looking for the map to happiness......Where is that damn thing.....

Lost Pilot - Starfish asked me to post this. I posted this under another question regarding contacting the other man/woman. Hope it helps.

posted June 16, 2003 10:18 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did the same thing. Contacted the other man (my wifes affair partner) and his wife.

My wife hated the fact that I did this. I was only hurting myself by doing this was her reasoning. When in reality I was breaking down the walls of deception. I discovered more in a few short conversations with them than my wife was and is still (3months later) willing to discuss with me.

I've recently been told by my wife not to contact her as a result of her affair ending and her impression that my contact with her affair partner and his wife had something to do with my wife being dumped. I guess I did a bad thing so no contact is my punishment.

Funny thing is niether one of them has ever asked me not to contact them.

The reality is I began to know,

1- more things about my wifes affair from her affair partner
2- more things about her affair partners relationship with his wife
3- and from her affair partners wife I also gained information about what my wifes affair partner was realy thinking about my wife and the affair relationship. Few Did you get that.

I went from the outside with no contol of my life or the information I was seeing to more control of what was happening to me and happening within the affair than my wife wanted to let me see or knew herself.

I do advise you to think before you speak to the other person and don't do anything that would hurt your spouse. Talking to the other people involved in this mess isn't about revenge but to gain helpfull infomation for yourself and calmly explain your feelings to those involved. When you've done that keep the contact once a month at most.

Everything you do or say will likely be repeated to your spouse and used against you. You don't want to push them togther or give them the oppertunity to say "your right your spouse is a raving loony no wonder you want out"

Hi LP... sorry to have posted and run... rude I know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> this has been a crazy week so far and it seems to be heading down that road even more.

Did you get a chance to look at all the links and info I posted for you? Where would you like to start and what can I help you with?

I'm away all day tomorrow, my D is having surgery, but I will be in much of the rest of the week so let me know what I can do and I'll do my best. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C

Cerri,

I did get a chance to look at the stuff, it was very interesting. I guess I am not sure where to even begin to be honest. I guess I shoudl start with some possibly good news. I wasn't sure whether or not my wife would return to MC. She surprised me today by showing up. I told her that I was happy to see her, she responded by an interesting no your not & she was in tears. I wasn't sure how to take that, she doesn't think that I change my habbit patterns I guess.

An interesting thing happened in MC today she came into today saying that she didn't feel comfortable with our MC & that she wanted a new one. (I believe that this was due to the fact that she now had to face what she has done) After today she said that she really liked our MC. Still no commitment to N/C but our MC explained several things to her in regaurds to the o/m. She knows that nothing will get accomplished untill the n/c but she is in very deep (her words) I also told our m/c & my wife about telling my parents what was going on. We are seeing the m/c again next week. I am looking at this as very & I emphasize very small baby steps towards recovery. I express my desire to have a "fair" shot of recovery with no gaurntee (sp?)& our M/C thought that that was not unreasonable nor did my wife.

I have told my wife about both this website & the one you sent me links to. I am not sure if it is yours our not. She seemed interested in looking at them.

With that said I still do not know where to start or what to do. I know that a book she & I were asked to read was "Facing Shame" I read it right away & then gave it to her to read. That is one of her assignments to do before she makes any decesion about us. Because like I said in other post I am a recovering addict of money, & no I am not using this as an excuss for her decesions, but she does have to deal with that.

I guess I am not sure what else you need to know or what you want to know, but today was a good day I believe. It won't be a great day untill n/c has been committed to & assured I guess.

Thank you
LP

Lost Pilot,

I you haven't read "Surviving An Affair", I sincerely urge you to. The whole process that cerri or anyone here would most likely recommend is contained in the that book. Then you can come here for clarification and specific problems for brainstorming or if you are having a very bad day. You aren't alone LP. I'm encouraged for you that your wife went to the counselor...I think that's a big deal. Good luck.

Cerri,

I did come up with a question or two. I was re-reading the two articles & shed some light on stuff that I realized too late that I was doing wrong. However I have already found out about the affair, my wife confessed on 6-8-03, We are already seperated (her choice....she told me that when she moved out she thought she knew what she wanted...) I am working on what I know of to make things somewhat more attractive for her to come back. None of this seems to be ending the Affair... our MC highly recommeneded to her that she end the affair & tell her parents for mainly health reasons (she gets migrains....in fact she had to go to the emergency room on Sunday for one) to releive stress, but then he also actknowledged my request for a fair chance at recovery. I guess I am unsure of what to do besides sit back & watch. However the stress & lonliness is killing me. With my job I have to forget about everything going on in my personal life (which for obvious reason is hard). I am going to pick up the book Surviving an Affair today before I leave for a trip. I guess the big question is where do I go from here....I love me wife very much & want to have a full recovery....we both know that this cannot happen untill she ends the A. She just isn't ready to I don't think.
She told me that she has a lot of things to sort out.... So I asked her if it wouold better if we didn't comminicate for a while? She told me that I could call her if I wanted to. Again not sure how to take that?

Well I think I have digressed a little bit from the beginning....sorry. I just going with thoughts & they just keep coming out.

I guess my big question is what else can I do to end the affair that I already havn't done. I have confronted, & exposed to my friends & family,(mc highly recommend for her to tell her parents)& the om is single friend, she has told me that a couple of her friends know but it was during a "light hearted conv." So I guess I don't know how much she said. I believe she said that she told them everthing( I asked her but can't honestly remember that answer). & we are already seperated. I do not feel as though I have anymore leverage.

LostPilot