W surprised me greatly this morning. If you read my previous post, I suspected that W's therapist spilled her guts on what I had told her. I may owe her an apology. I finally got W to talk this morning and she said her Th basically told her like it was. For the first time in 8 months, she actually portrayed to W what it was like in my shoes. Had she done this months ago, we might have saved the marriage.<P>She told her that as long as she kept friendship with OM and wanted to move out on a "break" with no restrictions(move out, but put the divorce on hold), that there was no need to try to work on the marriage. She told her that she understood how I couldn't accept this and that she wouldn't be able to do it herself, either.<P>W is going to take her apartment application back to the complex today. She is still really confused and I feel so sorry for her. I know that she isn't absolutely sure this is what she wants, but I also realize there is nothing I can do to persuade her to stay. I just told her that she could count on me for any help she might need and that I would be there as a friend(not husband), if she wanted to talk. <BR>Even though it's not working out, I am so very grateful to her therapist for <B>finally</B> being a <B>real</B> therapist and not just an encourager of W's thoughts. She was too late, but she did come thru in the end. W really isn't angry with me(so she says and acts), but she is hurt and confused. Even though she's going to leave, my heart cries for her pain. I love her so much and do wish her well. I've asked her not to feel guilt over this because I don't blame her for anything.<P>I know someone will say "it's not over 'till it's over", but in my heart, I know it <B>is</B> finished. I will get on with my life after she moves and I pray that she will be happy as she sets off on her new life.<P>Man, I'm depressed right now.....<P>P.S. I am thinking seriously of writing a letter to that therapist expressing my deep gratitude for what she did. I doubt she will want to hear from me, but I truly believe that after a disasterously false start, she finally saw the light.<p>[This message has been edited by Heartpain (edited December 18, 1999).]

I am very surprised. Now why the heck didn't this woman do all this early on????<P>Or maybe it was your "final session" that brought her to her senses.<P>Yeah, you know me, I one of those "it's not over 'til it's over folks", so I won't even bother to say it. But it's not!<P>You do what you need to do. She will do the same. The right thing will happen once it's all said and done. <P>But take good care of yourself, my friend, ok? This is hard. The first weeks are something that I can't even begin to explain. And if you need us, we're here. You know that.<P>I'm pulling for you.<P>Lori

HP,<P>I have to agree with Lori, it was real nice for shrink to wait so long to step on your W's toes.<P>I don't think it's "too" late for your marriage.<P>"I just told her that she could count on me for any help she might need and that I would be there as a friend(not husband), if she wanted to talk." <P>That quote is your building block. It is what I am doing.<P>It hurts.<P>It doesn't seem rewarding.<P>But, I think it's working.<P>Two books I suggest.<P>Divorce Busting<P>Winning Your Wife Back<P>I'll pull up the Books post the web links are on there.<P>Don't focus on winning the game yet. Keep moving the ball down field, make those first downs, they lead to touchdowns, thats what wins the game.<P>Hang in there man.<P><B>IT ISN'T OVER YET</B><P>Bill<P><P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

Lori & bill -- You have my deepest gratitude...That's all I can say about that right now...<P>bill -- For the general case and most specific cases, you are right. The only problem about books and theories is that they address the "general" case. As we commiserate together here on this forum, we all see others whose situations seem to "parallel" our own. However, when you begin to look more deeply, you start to find the things that make each one unique.<P>In my case, I have seen many, many betrayers who have followed the same pattern, exhibited much of the same behavior and so on, as my W. But when I look really deep at this, I see the things that make our situation different enough that some of the standard rules and responses don't apply.<P>For example, nearly everyone says that contact with the OP <B>must</B> be severed completely for a reconciliation to happen. In our case, I've known W for 11 years and I know her very, very well. I truly believe that if it was in her heart to stay married to me and build happiness, that she could stay friends with OM in a way that wouldn't threaten our future. For her, the key is setting her mind to it. When she has determined a course of action, she has the strength of will to pull it off. She exhibits such dichotomies, in that she can be as weak as a kitten, or as strong as a lion. It just depends on her mindset.<P>By the same token, once she decides to leave and end the marriage, it <B>will</B> be done, because she won't go either way until she has set her course and harnessed her determination to follow through. With the obvious exception of what has happend to us in the last months, she is a marvelous, exceptional and unique individual. This is what made me fall in love with her and it will be what causes the end of our marriage.<P>OK, I'll bite and use your football analogy. Each time I get a first down, I am informed that the rules have changed and I need 5 more yards. Not only that, the length of the field keeps increasing with no end in sight. Really, bill, at some point you have to punt the ball away.<P>I appreciate your support and will try to draw strength from it, if not optimism. I'm glad you are able to make a difference with your W. I'm pulling for you....<P>

It feels like it is over it acts like it is over, but is it really? No, As I said in your other thread. Sometimes I think that they have to take this step in order to get over the other person. I realize we are taking a big chance to let them go, but I think with some of our spouses that they can't let go until they see what it is really like. The fantasy is just too strong, it pulls them in. They are also the ones who will be so hurt when they realize that it was just that a fantasy and reality with us was better. I think that is why there is a plan B. Use it it will give you time to feel better about yourself and to give you strength to be able to deal with things when she does come back. {{{HUGS}}}<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

di -- You are another of the wise ones. I just wish I had an ounce of your optimism. I just know my W too well. There is some faint chance that she could surprise me, but with all that I know and all that I feel, I need to take the pessimistic route right now for self-protection.<P>Thanks for the hugs, they come in handy right now...

I know some days I feel the same way. I am not sure that H will come back. But i know that I couldn't continue to live the way we were. The pessimistic route is for our sanity. I know I have been there too, and still am. If you have read my last two threadw you know that I will be meeting H for the first time in 4 months. I go from one extreme to the other on this. I get my hope up to high one minute and the next I am down in the deep. I think I would rather view this as a pessimist, because it is easier and less painful. That is how we protect ourselves. But don't give up competely. Keep that little glimmer of hope alive but do what you need to do for our self protection. That glimmer of hope is doing the plan B letter. My favorite saying these days is what have you got to lose? You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Do it!!!!! {{{Hugs}}}<P>I just reread one of your post again and wanted to add something. The way your wife is now is not necessarily the same person she was before. The way she acted before doesn't determine the way she will acts now. This not a normal relationship. It is an addiction. Nothing they do now is logical or even true to the type of person they were. THey have changed drasticly. No matter what you think she could have done in the past she can not do now. This addiction is a lot like a drug or alcohol addiction. It is one way or none. THey seem to have to hit bottom with this addiction before they become normal again. Does this make sense to you?<BR>------------------<BR>di<P><p>[This message has been edited by SDS (edited December 18, 1999).]

This remeinds me of my son's therapist...<P>When we first went to see him (his name is Bob)... okay, when my son and I first went to see Bob, he told me that he would not touch on the "big" stuff for awhile. He wanted to build a rapport with my S so that he could feel safe, trusted, and trusting.<P>I think that's what happened here. The Therapist couldn't jump in with the outright truth of the thing without the worry that your W would bolt and never return.<P>As far as your marriage (and mine for that matter) we haven't signed the papers yet, so it ain't over till it's over).<P>~Sheryl<P>------------------<BR>Life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans.<P>~John Lennon

di -- I do feel in some ways that you are right. I will think about what you and NSR(Jim) have told me about the Plan B letter. I <B>might</B> do it. Nothing she can do will change the fact that I love her today more than ever. Only time combined with separation can do that. I feel like I've aged 15 years in the last 8 months. I've got to move on now. With or without her. Plan B is for working on yourself, <B>not</B> moving on. If she leaves, I will want to do <B>both</B>. I feel I <B>do</B> have something to lose, more of my life.<P>Sheryl -- My therapist and I have talked about the very same scenario that you mentioned(i.e., comfort and trust). The problem is that assuming this is true, she let things progress too far the other way before she put her foot down. She actually <B>encouraged</B> W to think about her independence and what a <B>nice</B> guy OM was(PUKE!!!!). She told my therapist and me that he was a wonderful "altruistic" friend. She was either unaware or deliberately ignoring the truth. Either way, she did encourage(deliberately or no) W to continue on the path she was walking. You cannot do that. You have to some how slow things down or halt them while you spend 8 months building trust and comfort. She actually did the opposite.<P>You guys are all right, things <B>could</B> possibly work out in the end, but only if she <B>doesn't</B> leave.<P>P.S. BTW, Sheryl, we are close on the big "D". My attorney said we could have this done before the end of the year if either of us pushes it....So if she does, she does....If she moves out, I will, but I will delay it until after Jan 1 to save tax money by being able to file jointly...<P>--DeWayne--<p>[This message has been edited by Heartpain (edited December 18, 1999).]

Hello to Our Wonderful Storyteller!!!<P>You are a pessimist - I am an optimist!!<P>That established - let's explore this!!<P>Basically, what I read here is that YOU have decided that if she leaves - that's it - done, over, finito!!!! Is that correct?<P>One problem right off the bat that I see is contradictions to that decision....<P>You LOVE her<BR>You WILL BE there for her<BR>You DON'T want to end the marriage<BR>You SAY IT IS HER DECISION.....<P>Now, this is where you have to help me understand.....<P>If you love her, want to be there, don't want a divorce and have left the decision up to her......why have you CHOSEN to call it over when she moves?<P>OK, I understand about the hurt, pain, limbo, etc.....we all have it in many ways, extremes and tolerances!!<P>But, how are you making this decision on any basis of reality? HER mind is clouded and in full confusion mixed with the fantasy of what "might" be.....<BR>HOW can you feel that she is choosing the end of the marriage without a clear mind?<P>You say that once she sets a course - she follows it........I'm sure that is true!!! Call it stubborness, direction, or whatever - but the fact is she set a course of being married to YOU.....where did that disappear to? Hmmmmm?<P>Look, This whole infidelity nightmare is a glimpse into hell!!!!! Definitely!!!<BR>All of us want it done and gone from our lives!! For some - the process is quick! For others - it is slow and gut-wrenching!! And then there are those that never make it through!!!!<P>I guess the most important thing us betrayed have to establish is how much we really love our partner, can we handle the hell we are in with a perspective of "for better or worse" and an eye on the rebuilding of our marriages. That is ALL we can have control over!!!! <P>I have no doubts whatsoever that infidelity IS a PROCESS!!!! Until the process is complete within the mind of the betrayer......hell continues - no matter what the betrayed says, does, threatens, etc. <P>Your Wife is in the Fantasy realm of "all the wonderful possibilities of the What-ifs"!!! She needs to be certain of her choice.....she is not without going out there to learn for herself!! Words of wisdom from you, the therapist (finally!!), family, friends.....are not going to penetrate the fog!!! <P>I didn't really get why you told her not to feel guilty and that you don't blame her for anything....why did you say that? Of course, she should feel guilt and she should realize the blame in this...... You don't have to tell her to feel this things....but I would think that this would be a big part of what will eventually lift her fog!!! Instead of giving her an out with those feelings, don't address them.....address the ultimate rebuilding and how you have learned that it is possible to regain the "in love" feelings, etc!!!!!<P>Look, you're tired of all this crap!!! You simply want a normal, tension free life!!!! Of course you do.....we all do - even your Wife does!!! The problem is that the betrayers don't realize that what they already have can be worked on and made as wonderful as they are fantasizing!!! They don't know that relationships (with anyone - including the OP) eventually go from carefree fantasy and ease...to reality and work!!<P>So, right now you've been doing all the work...it's hard, it's exhausting and half the time it's like beating your head against a wall!!! All that and nobody give you the pat on the back or the hugs and affection or even acknowledges your pain and effort!!!<P>But you have something that noone sees - you have been building strength, you have been learning what a "true" relationship consists of!!! You have knowledge!!! And knowledge is power!!<P>Use that knowledge....put it into practice!!! If (God forbid) this marriage does end....how about the next one? Will the trend continue if this education is not implemented? Will you have to experience this hell again?<P>Being pessimistic for self-protection is one thing....but having a defeatist attitude is another.....<P>I think that being smart, cautious and conservative in our expectations is really what is needed!!!! That way there is no negative energy being projected into an already volatile situation!!! It also allows you to feel happier too!!<P>If you feel your love slipping away - then go to Plan B.....<P>If you are just having righteous indignation or foolish pride.....then reexamine your perspectives!!!<P>If you just want to "get on with your life...." - explain what that is exactly.....I don't understand that!! What is it that you are rushing to? The pain, feelings, etc. are not going to go away because you decide to "get on with life' - you are getting on with life!! It's just that life is not to your liking at this time......<P>I hope that I have made some sense here - you know that I care about you and want to see you happy!! I would hate to see you go in any direction without taking a REALLY long look at the whole picture!!!!<P>You know that we are all here to help you - always!!!!<P>Besides, I am still waiting for the date that I am scheduled to be ontop...uh, I mean on Hercules!! (Why do I keep saying it wrong!!) LOL!!!!<P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba<P><BR>

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.... what she said!<P>Even tho' I posted to your other thread before reading this one.<P>It ain't over, bud. Just another step along this weary road.<P>The gals are right. If you CALL it over, it sure will make it harder for your W to come back. Even if she decides at some point to explore that.<P>Oh yah, you're right. She might not decide. But, then again.... she might. You obviously care for her very much. So, leave the light on for her, willya? She just may decide your comfort is what she wants for the rest of her life.<P>Food for thought.

Again, dMac, thanks...I wish we were a repeat of yours and Suse's story...I guess all the tales can't turn out happy...