On another thread of mine, where I question the concept of TOTAL HONESTY by comparing it to Step Nine of the Twelve Steps, I received a post from Just Learning which had the following sentence in it:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>You are making assessments about the impact of your honesty without knowing the final results of your affair or the honesty.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It got me to thinking. <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...final results<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>...FINAL results<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR><B>FINAL</B> is a word that we <I>cannot</I> use because all we see here is the finite. Even the success stories on the board are what?... two years... longer?... as long as my marriage???... any <B>20 year</B> success stories out there?<P>Nope, didn't think so. <P>You know, Infidelity has been going on since Bible times. Couples make it through, or don't. It's always been that way. There are so many marriages that DO make it (my grandparents, for example) because one or both in the couple basically willed it to be so. You don't often hear of people marrying the OP and having it work out - <B>everyone</B> knows that! I've met a few who have left their spouse for the OP and in <B>every</B> case it didn't work - divorce. But I've met <B>tons</B> of couples(okay, too many to count) who have weathered it through affairs and have been closer - all without having found Harley or this site.<P>I think that what's gonna work for some isn't going to work for others. Let's take a church for example. There are so many different types of Christan churches. We choose one depending on our "slant" even if they <B>teach</B> the same principles and truths (Jesus died on the Cross and was buried, rose again and now we have new life). It's the same here... the principle (working out your marriage to a successful conclusion) is the same but Harley's way to it isn't the only way to get there. <P>I am still so angry about Lacee's thread, where the <B>abuse</B> is completely ignored in favor of TOTAL HONESTY that could <B>get her killed</B>. Even my own H replied there and overlooked that fact... all he knows, and others too, is that they need to know... never mind the consequences. In this case, the consequence may be a <B>fatal beating</B>.<P>I just <B>hope</B> that everyone who is doing the work to repair and heal your marriage is using the old brain stem to <B>think think think </B> about what you're doing and how it will <I>really</I> affect your life and your marriage in the long run.<P>Am I angry this morning? Not like you think, not about my life. Frustrated? A little. H is out today gathering furniture for his apartment, and yes, that hurts, because again last night he says he doesn't want to go. It's that blasted talking that gets you every time!! Why would he tell me that? I told him he didn't have to go. OH WELL!<P>But here we are - ALL of us - hanging on by threads in some cases, calling ourselves success stories in others (and perhaps you are, and I pray it is true in <I>the long run</I>), but mostly this group seems to be one big ball of hopeful pain. And I wonder - where will we be in 20 years?<P>~Sheryl <P>P.S. This is one time when my "signiture" statement, a quote from John Lennon, seems to really <B>fit</B>!<P>------------------<BR>Life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans.<P>~John Lennon

Oh Sheryl,<BR>My heart goes out to you this morning. I am so sorry that you are hurting. I read your post from yesterday about Step 9 of the 12 steps. I feel that I know my H very well, and many would tell me not to judge what he is going to think and that I couldn't possibly know how he is going to react like they told you. That might be partly true, but I do know that he will NOT handle it well. I think about that step 9 of the 12 steps. "...except when to do so would injure them or others" As far as the "Final Results" in my case, I think that it would bring harm to so many if I do tell him. One thing I didn't mention before was my concern that he would do something to himself. Actually, I am scared to death that he would do something to harm himself! What will I have done then? To him? To his Children? To his family and friends? I have to protect the ones who could be harmed and that includes HIM. I do love him as much as some would like to believe I don't because of my being the betrayer. He will not be thinking rationally when he learns the OM. If I knew for sure, that it would only effect me, then it would be a much easier decision to make, for I would accept my "Punnishment" so to speak. But my children and everyone else that is so innocent.. my H, our parents, friends? How many people is this going to effect? It's the ripple effect and I can throw the stone into the water and pray for a possitive reaction, but what are the odds on that? I doubt they are even measurable! Maybe I am meant to pay for my mistake by having to carry it as a secret with me forever as long as it means that I can protect the others. I think sometimes, that maybe betrayers who have suffered by having told all and betrayed that have been told and are suffering because of it, believe that they have had to do it, and everyone else should have to. I am sorry if this upsets some, but I am beginning to believe more and more that my telling him could bring catastrophic consequences to far too many people. So if keeping it a secret destroys me, then maybe that is what I deserve. But at this moment I am having a hard time believing that I could take the chance in destroying everyone else. Sheryl, I thank you for your consern about me, it is very heart warming. I want you to know that my thoughts and prayers are with you this morning... <P>

NB:<P>20-year success stories?? Plenty of them. They're just not here. The internet wasn't really "in" 20 years ago... <P>Harley has been marriage counseling for longer than 20 years. He started out using "standard" marriage counseling techniques---like keeping the secret of the affair because it would hurt the other spouse. And no matter how well-meaning his efforts were, they were generally failures. So he refined his techniques until he began achieving success---at a much higher rate than most marriage counselors. His "refined" efforts include pretty simple rules, including the Rule of Complete Honesty.<P>These rules are critical for successful recovery. If you deviate too much, you're asking for trouble. Do other's make it without the methods??? Sure. In some cases they use "most" of the techniques (remember---these are pretty common sense), and have decent marriages. In lots of cases, one partner is emotionally capable of "giving" a tremendous amount to keep the marriage together---in essence, a martyrdom.<P>But if you were starting off from scratch, how would you want a marriage to work??? Probably following those "Four Rules for a Successful Marriage".<P>And you can have that in your marriage, even though you need to navigate all the harm you two have done to the marriage by your thoughtless behaviors. Honesty hasn't cost you anything---it hasn't "killed" your husband, and it hasn't "killed" you. In fact, while you've done plenty to hurt each other, you both profess your "love" for each other. And you both are incredibly disrespectful by saying that the other now "hates" you or has had their love "killed".<P>The only thing the two of you really need is a qualified counselor skilled at putting all the BS the two of you are letting get in the way of recovery. And from where I sit---this is pretty sad. Your problems have little to do with "no love" in the marriage (which is tougher); it's got to do with lack of marriage skills and training on how to practice them.<P>So, letting up a bit, I'd encourage you to talk to Dr. Harley (or Steve) and start some real marriage counseling. You could pull this off, if you'd both agree to shut up and follow directions, instead of thinking that you know better.<P>And for what I saw, I don't think anyone really didn't validate Lacee's concern of abuse. But there is a contingent who believes that a marriage would fully recover without the truth. I'm in that contingent too. However, if she's married to a psychopath who will kill her when something goes against his grain, she ought to be divorcing him, or at least separating from him while he's getting treatment. <P>

I apologize to you Sheryl for putting you in this position. I think it might be best if I were to just back away from this forum and let this subject die down or go away or whatever. My husband is a very sweet loving man. However, when he is threatened with the fact (Or even imagined the thought, as we have seen) that there has been a OM with his wife.. he is going to be upset naturally. I cannot honestly say that he will hurt me physically again. Remember, he had never even raised a hand to me before and he hasn't since the only episode. Maybe he learned his lesson from what he did. But I do know that I don't want to see him in that type of pain again. And therefore, I will pay the consequences with what ever happens by my keeping it a secret, at least for now. If things change in the future, it could be possible that I will tell him. As for now.. I cannot. Things happen for a reason.. I truly believe that. I also believe that there is an exception to this rule, of honesty. But only when absolutely necessary! I think this is one of those times...<p>[This message has been edited by Lacee (edited December 18, 1999).]

Good morning Lacee and K,<P>Lacee: I have that same concern re: my H. He has threatened suicide and has actually harmed himself. He doesn't, however, feel that he needs therapy. I would feel that it was <B>my fault</B> if he hurt himself because of <B>my</B> mistake. I so totally understand where you are coming from, and I am so very sorry for your pain and confusion. <P>K: Gee, what do I say? You are so intelligent, and so passionate about what you believe. I love to read what you write (you're an excellent writer!), and I respect your opinion very much. <P>Will you concede that there is a chance, <B>a chance</B> mind you, that Harley isn't the only game in town? And further, will you concede that sometimes Harley's "rules" cause more harm than healing? That is probably right where we will part ways, right? <P>Maybe I'm turning into a big cynic, and should stay away from here so that I don't drag anyone away from Harley's teachings? I'm honestly beginning to wonder. I believe that everything happens for a reason, and felt that I was led to this site by God. I'm not so sure any more.<P>K, you talk about disrespect toward my H?? I read what he wrote. I don't hate him, it is <B>his perception</B>, not mine! And as far as a qualified counselor, <B>of course</B> we need one, but now my H says he only needs Jesus to take care of things. And you can't actually see my H... he looks terrible, everyone says so. He looks like death. That's no joke, and I'm not trying to be disrespectful. If I didn't "kill" him with my words, then he is most surely <B>killing himself</B> by not eating, sleeping, loving or living (for that matter) every day for the last eight months. <P>And finally, about the counseling. I agree!! You act like you're giving me some news flash I never considered. Do you know that my mother is a therapist? I have very high regard for therapy. I've seen therapists, and see one now. My H poo-poo's the idea, not me. And as far as "shut up and follow directions"... K, do you think I haven't done that? I did everything that was told to me - <B>to a point where it was no longer safe to do so</B>. My H is on the edge right now. I could deposit love units from now until the cows come home, keep a clean house, be there sexually... and I could do it all on his timetable, he wouldn't have to do anything different at all... <B>oh ya</B>, that <B>is</B> what I was doing... at what point, K, do I protect myself? <P>You are a man who turned bitterness and anger around and have become a better person for it. Not everyone is you, dear K. Not everyone is that strong...<BR>

By the way Lacee, you were posting when I was... you <B>do not leave</B> this forum because of this!<P>You are a hurting woman who is trying to decide what is right to do <B>in your situation</B>. Nobody, <B>nobody</B> knows your life, your H, like you do!<P>All I want for you is healing and safety!<P>Hugs, Sheryl<BR><P>------------------<BR>Life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans.<P>~John Lennon

Thanks Sheryl,<P>I will think seriously about hanging around. I just don't want to cause any problems. You are a very sweet lady and I appreciate your concern and support. <P>I want the same for you... and I want you to be happy and I want everything to work out for you. I wish that your H wasn't deteriorating as he is. It breaks my heart to think of what you are feeling inside. I can only imagine it and maybe it sounds selfish, but I am grateful that I am not going through what you are. I only regret that you have to...<P>Oh what a tattered web we weave....<P>Take care!

Sheryl, Thank you so much for expressing my thoughts when I read Lacee's sting. I had to turn off my pc and walk away for awhile just to let off steam at some of the advice. Not that I disagree w/ wholeheartedly trying to make a marriage work. It's just that no one saw all the Red Flags. <BR>I do understand however that those on this board seem to be focused on saving the marriage and that's what they spoke too. <P>Lacee, Please do not take this wrong. There are a few things you said that are very troubling to me. First and foremost was the prior abuse. Abuse in any situation is unhealthy, and there is nothing that would justify it ever happening. If he abused you for only going out, what will he feel justified in doing when you have actually proved his worst fear.<BR>Second, you said that the night you went out was the first time you had been out w/o your H. That is a red flag. It sounds like a trust or control issue. Both unhealthy.<BR>Third, You felt guilty for not being able to do the Easter Eggs for your kids. I do understand that, but why wasn't your husband involved w/ the Easter stuff. My feeling is that you felt/feel guilty for him hitting you too. You can not take this on yourself. <P>I am only making these points to say one thing. There is a major reason you found another man and it's not because he was so great. I believe that your marriage is very unhealthy in many ways. This is not a flame, please do not take this wrong. I am very concerned for you. You need to get some kind of counciling. You are not crazy. You need to address so many other things than just the EMR. <P>Please, please please understand I do not mean to hurt you by this post. If you only knew the protective "vibes" I am sending your way. <P>I may be banned for this post, seeing that it doesn't fit the Harley way. I apologize for any anger this may cause anyone, I honestly don't feel that Lacee's issues are with trying to keep her marriage, it's trying to make herself safe and healthy and in doing so she can then make her marriage healthy.<P>Thank you for allowing me to speak my peace.

OK, I'm going to disagree with some of you here and you are welcome to trash me for it. If Lacee can forgive the <B>one</B> physical incident and there have been no others or situations that looked like they could turn physical, I say let her alone about it.<P>We, as a society, have turned overreacting into an art form. In days gone by we used to "forgive and forget". Now, in certain cases, we choose as a society and, in some cases, as individuals to condemn forever. <P>One incident of physical abuse is certainly cause for big-time alarm. But we <B>must</B> look beyond a single incident to see what the person is really like. We have become too attached to "labeling" and desire to attach labels to people as fast as we can.<P>I am very sensitive to this as my W's counselor labeled me a psychological and emotional abuser after two or three sessions of seeing only my W, who, as you know was in the fantasy of the affair. Some of the things W told her were exaggerations, others were outright falsehoods, but some were true. It appears to me that if I related some of what W said about me, that there are those of you who would immediately agree with her therapist. The problem is you don't know me well enough to make those judgements.<P>We don't know Lacee and her H well enough to jump on a bandwagon and condemn her H as "Satan" because of one "physical" incident. Most of us have been on the verge of being out-of-control before, especially those of us who have or have had, children. There is a very fine line from extreme frustration and physical retribution. Crossing that line once does not a monster make. It does mean that one should be on one's guard for a repetition.<P>Don't get me wrong. Physical abuse of <B>anyone</B> is one of the worst things you can do to a fellow human being. People need to leave relationships that have become abusive before anything really bad happens. But only <B>one</B> incident can be forgiven and even forgotten if the behavior before and after justifies it.<P>Sorry, once I get on one of these soapboxes, it's hard to get off.<P>Lacee, <B>please stay here.</B>

Heartpain,<P>And if that <B>one</B> physical incident had resulted in <B>DEATH</B>??<P>Love you... hate what you said.<P>Overreacting to him dragging her around the house, ripping her clothes, smashing her face in the shower, "checking her to see if she's had sex" (what the hell does that entail?),scaring the children...<P>No, I don't think so. <P><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited December 18, 1999).]

Aghra, OH YEAH! I blamed myself alright. I take 100% of the blame for the physical abuse even to this day. NOTHING anyone can say will ever make me change my mind about that. You need to understand that before the incident, for about 5 months, I had been acting irrational and withdrawn. I drank constantly and was nearly passed out by the time he got home from work. This was due to the fact that I had had a brief affair and had just wanted to die because of the guilt I had. I would wake up at 7 am and take a drink just to numb myself. This would continue all day. I went through a fifth of tequila a day! I am a person, who previously only drank occasionally. Before this happened I had a bottle of tequila in the cupboard for 13 years that was still half full! That is how badly I felt. The affair had ended, but obviously he sensed something was wrong! NO KIDDING?? I would of had it been him. However, the point is this. I drove him to feel like he did. I caused his pain and confusion. It's no wonder that he did what he did. Even though I hadn't been with a man that night, and the affair had ended 3 months prior he was exhausted from wondering. I have forgiven him for what happened. Afterall, I brought it on. But... yes you are all saying.. that doesn't excuse it. I have heard it a million times. But like I said before, I take 100% of the blame and that will never change. My H had always had me there. I loved being there. It was just the timing of the circumstances when he was taking me for granted and blaming me for everything that went wrong... the kids all in school full day... me with time on my hands.. and I'm certain the not to long before death of my parents added a lot to the problem. I felt alone and lonley. Sure things weren't perfect in our marriage. But we were the perfect couple to everyone else.<P>Heartpain, yes yes yes.. I have forgiven him... I understand why it happened. I don't think him an abuser. He has a horrible temper, yes, but he is not an abuser. <P>Sheryl, <BR>Yes, he could have killed me. I really thought I was going to die. I wanted to die. I was humiliated, embarassed and badly hurt. I lost an 18 year government job because I was so embarassed to go back to work bruised as I was. But I was gone... the real me was gone.. off in la la land somewhere trying and praying for anything to help me get back to where I belonged. Yes I am scared to death of what will happen when he really knows the truth. Before, he only suspected. This will either kill him or me (mentally).. Or cause us to deteriorate and withdraw from life again. How I hate reliving it... it hurts so much... Did you ever feel like this? <p>[This message has been edited by Lacee (edited December 19, 1999).]

Lacee,<P>Yes, I do feel like that... so I don't relive it any more. I just try to go on with my life and forget it. It isn't easy though!<P>By the way, forgiving him is good, but he is an abuser, and the fact that you are afraid that one or both of you could <B>die</B> says it all.<P>Take care...<P>------------------<BR>Life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans.<P>~John Lennon