Well everybody.....

My wife called me last night & basically rubbed my money problems in my face. She had some wort of seminar with work about money & ect... Not really sure totally, but she called my a said that she has been doing everything right & how I have done everything wrong & that she is still very angry at me for it. I realize what I did is wrong, I am working on my recovery. This was the only reason that she called, it wasn't how as your day, did you make it safe, ect.... If it wouldn't have been for that seminar she would have never called. It made me feel like crap.

Then she went on to talk about she isn't sure where we are at etc... & so I asked where do you want to be? She is said that she told both me & our m/c that we are done. I know she said something like that before our session, but then she came out of that ok so I thought things would be better. Guess not. I guess she would rather take the road more traveled than the one less traveled, but her true self is coming out & nomatter what she tells me she is about the money. I am just ranting right now.

I feel like all of my efforts are falling on Deaf Ears. Is it time for Plan B, I havn't even done plan A yet for 2 months. But if that is her attitude what do I do. Our m/c told her to read the book "Facing Shame" before making any decesions....Has she read it yet....Nope. I haven't been hounding her about it or anthing she brought it up the other day & said that she having a hard time & I asked her how much she has read(very calmly) & she said not much & all I said was ok. I tried to no LB'ers there.

She told me that she would call me on Saturday morning during one of my breaks. We will see.

I think I had a couple of LB during our phone conversation though because I was trying make plans with her for over the weekend & she got madd at me saying that I wanted to much of her time. I opps there I guess. Well I am going to go back to bed for about 20 minutes I have a long day ahead. Take care everybody & thanks for all of the advice. I wish I had better news to give you all. I will hang in there & fight until I get the papers...But it is hard & I think I see the writting on the wall.

LP

LP,

Your wife is exhibiting typical FOG talk. During Plan A you really can't have any expectations of caring from your wife. I personally don't think it's time for Plan B yet....without the groundwork of an EXCELLENT Plan A....Plan B has almost no hope of helping. It is important to think of the things she say as "babble" because her head is not clear while she is in the midst of an affair. Think of it like you are talking to a drunk...that's about how much sense or feeling you are going to get from her words. Ignore them and keep to your plan. Right now, this is all about her...showing her that your marriage is an attractive alternative to the A. Expect nothing, but your time will come. I know that sick feeling, but as you learn some detachment and begin to find your focus...it will subside a bit. Continue to let her know how the A makes you feel. ELIMINATE all LBs....probably the most important part of this plan....and give this a bit more time. If you get desperate, can't go on....cross that bridge when you come to it....for now....stay on course. This stuff doesn't work over night....especially with women, it seems to take a long time. Continue to address the money issue and let her know what you are doing toward that aim. Don't give up yet and don't move to Plan B yet. Sorry, I know you're hurting. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Don't forget to expose her A to everybody that knows the two of you. This is not my opinion but that of Dr Harley himself.

Coffeeman I agree....but his MC told him not to.

I tend to agree with star*fish.

What you are really practicing here is unconditional love. Loving someone without expecting anything in return. At some point, you W will realize what you are doing. That is when things will start to change. Until then, in her eyes, you have not changed.

You have been with her for 11 years. 2 months does not sound like much compared to 132 months.

I know it is hard, but to get your W out of the fog she is in takes time. I think mine took about a year to truly understand the impact of what she had done.

What you are dealing with is hard and painful. If you are like me, you want everything fixed now so you can move on with life. However, sometimes things take longer to fix. I would bet that the problems you and your W have did not develop in 2 months, they may have taken 2 or 3 years, don't think 2 months will solve everything.

Take your time, be patient, show your W a love from you she may have never seen.

Take care.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong>Coffeeman I agree....but his MC told him not to.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Star I wonder if his MC is a marriage saving oriented professional like the Harley's and Cerri. Too many of them are not and only end up hurting more than helping. Besides, if he is trying to implement the Harley principles by picking and chosing which ones are palatable, then he is not taking advantage of their full potential benefits. Just my NSHO.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mesoftball:

What you are really practicing here is unconditional love. Loving someone without expecting anything in return. At some point, you W will realize what you are doing. That is when things will start to change. Until then, in her eyes, you have not changed.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The Harleys would beg to differ with you because they have stated that, when it comes to marriages, there is no such thing as 'unconditional love' and I agree with them because if you let your Giver have free reign of your actions, your Taker will start to become stronger and one day will take over and then the M will be indeed over. His WW is probably a perfect example of this. And also consider that those MBers that do beleive and practice the concept of 'unconditional love' (like 2Long and Spacecase) have not been very succesful with it as far as rebuilding their M's.

Coffeman,

I think as you suspect, that his MC is just the run of the mill type that is really more suited for individual counseling than marriage counseling....that's my sense from what he's said before. I really like Harley/cerri's approach because it so proactive and logical. The idea is to make the marriage seem attractive AND the affair to feel uncomfortable. Confrontation and Exposure...make the affair uncomfortable for anyone's conscience and make staying in the fog much more difficult. Filling Ens and stopping LBs, makes the marriage more attractive. And you're right, you don't get the full impact of Plan A if you pick and choose the things you like. I see so many people here trying to dilute this Plan and it just dilutes it's effectiveness....especiall if you are thinking about moving to Plan B.

I searched on "unconditional love" from the main site page and this is all I found.

unconditional love

I know there used to be something else but perhaps I'm remembering it from one of the books.

Here's some links to articles I've written on the subject as well. SYMC unconditional love article

SYMC unconditional love or negotiation in marriage

C

Ok, first let me apologize if I ask something that you've already told me. It's been a long week and I was up before sunrise so my brain isn't on full power. (Not that it ever is, but we won't go there!! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

[My wife called me last night & basically rubbed my money problems in my face.

As unpleasant as this is .... and I agree it's pretty yukky.... it still demonstrates that she is in the state of conflict which is far more hopeful than the state of withdrawal. Regardless of what she is saying, she hasn't completely given up, nor does she think that communicating with you is an entire waste of time. That's a good thing.


I realize what I did is wrong, I am working on my recovery.

So when she does things like calls and rants at you, how do you react?

If it wouldn't have been for that seminar she would have never called.

Mmmmmm.... it's a dangerous place to go to believe that you know what's going on inside someone else's head. You don't KNOW those things. All you know is what you experienced, but there is a whole lot more going on under the surface than what you see.

It made me feel like crap.

Of course it did!!! It was a horrid thing to do.

Then she went on to talk about she isn't sure where we are at etc... & so I asked where do you want to be?

You know..... I know you want to know what she's thinking and what she's feeling and you want to have some idea of where the heck your life might be headed..... but still, I wouldn't ask that question. When people come to me, I don't ask if they want to stay in the marriage, why give them the chance to verbalize that they don't?

A better question is to ask, what would it take for this to be a good place for you? You'll get all kinds of icky things thrown at you too, but you will very likely get some really good info as well. I can help you pick through the yuk to find that.

She is said that she told both me & our m/c that we are done. I know she said something like that before our session, but then she came out of that ok so I thought things would be better. Guess not.

Well the thing you have to keep in mind is that how someone feels, particularly someone who is having an affair, is subject to change with each passing second. So she might be fine with continuing in counseling and thinking about staying witnh you right now.... and then 5 minutes later might feel as if she needs to get away and not come back. You can't base what you do on the things she says.... if you do, you'll make yourself crazy and you'll be completely ineffective.

but her true self is coming out

No it's not. Her true self is completely obsured by the fact that she is in the grip of an addiction. One that is every bit as powerful as drugs, alcohol or any other addiciton. That's what affairs are.

I feel like all of my efforts are falling on Deaf Ears. Is it time for Plan B, I havn't even done plan A yet for 2 months.

Ok, I'd really like to see you do an excellent Plan A for 3-6 months. And that would include confronting, exposing, addressing your love busters and meeting any needs she'll allow you to meet.

What exactly have you done so far in each of those areas? We could build from there.

I wish I had better news to give you all. I will hang in there & fight until I get the papers...But it is hard & I think I see the writting on the wall.

Hanging in there and fighting is good. Hanging in there and fighting intelligently is even better. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Just because papers are filed doesn't mean much to me.... Did you know that 25% of divorce filings are never completed? Don't get hung up on what she says and does. Craft a good solid Plan and then stick to it... being flexible as things change, but not flapping in the wind at her every word.

C

LP[/QB][/QUOTE]

Thank you everybody for all of the respones. They have kept my hope alive. Right now it is at an all time low...I just got back from a trip tonight & it always sucks to come home to an empty house when I was so used to coming home to a lovly wife. Oh Well..... Not much to report her so far nothing new. I will keep you all posted.

LP,

I'm glad you find some comfort here. You are lucky to have gotten a reply from cerri. She really is a wonderful MB coach and you should read her post very carefully. Follow it to the letter, and don't give up yet. It's early, and it takes time for the fog to wear off....sometimes months. Sending you sunshine <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

cerri,

Thank you for your reply. I guess to answer the big question what have I been doing for my plan A.... Here it is
....I try to talk to her whenever she lets me. Mostly on the phone, but also in person.
....I try to limit LB as much as I can, I find myself bitting my lip alot, but I try very hard. Matter of fact when ever I do say something stupid she will respond by saying I notice you are changing...But when you say this... These are few and far between(or at least the ones I know about)I usually realize what I said right away & usually apoligize. It never seems to help though.
..... I try to end every conversation on an up note & try note to get all mushy, angry, etc... I try to show her my good side & the person that she married.

....I think one of the bad things that I do is to ask her about the OM. It is usually when I feel that she is lying about something. For example the other night she just brushed me off we talked for about 1 min. I found out the next day that she was fighting with the OM about our trip to a concert on Monday. I tried to tell her how her A was killing me but I do not know if it made a difference.

.....The only thing I haven't done is to tell her family about the affair. I tried to lead her mom to water the other night when I talked to her but who knows if she will drink. Our m/c says that she should tell her family, I do not think she will.

Is there anything else you would like to know? I have read the book Surviving an Affair & the case about Jon & Sue is identical to what mywife & I are going through.

I would like to try & get in with my wife with Penny from save your marriage.com or Dr Harley.
I think it might be an different apporach for both of us.

Thank you for your help. Any 0ther advice would be appreciated.

I am struggling a lot right now. I feel like throwing in the towel. I mean people that I talk to (friends) are telling that my wife is high MX, & that I can do better than her, & why do I want to maybe waste several more years of my life trying to fix something that may or maynot be there. I feel as though that something can come out of all this.

Thank You
LostPolit

LP,

Just wanted to let you know *giggle* that cerri IS Penny from Save you marriage central.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am struggling a lot right now. I feel like throwing in the towel. I mean people that I talk to (friends) are telling that my wife is high MX, & that I can do better than her, & why do I want to maybe waste several more years of my life trying to fix something that may or maynot be there. I feel as though that something can come out of all this.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LP even if you followed Plan A/Plan B flawlessly there is NO guarantee that your M will be saved. So why bother doing it? Because IF your M ends in divorce, you will have the peace of mind that you did the best a human being could do to save his M AND you will have learned so much about what makes relationships healthy and what makes them sick so that IF you do remarry then the old, destructive habits of this M will not follow you to your next relationship and doom it as well. And for those reasons it is worth your effort to follow the MB methodology to save your M.

Thanks Star*Fish....I kinnda thought that but was not absoulty sure... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> & to Toomuch Coffee man. I think that what you said is absoulty true, & until I found this Website I had no idea how to act intelligantly (sp) I am doing everything possibly so that when this all ends be it good or bad (I am hoping for the good) I can look myself in the mirror & be proud of what I did to try & save this marriage. & you are right about one thing I have learned a lot for any future relationships just by reading Surviving an Affair.

My only problem now is that I do not like being alone, I am not used to it yet. Even when I lived away from my wife(then girlfriend) for about 1 year I was never really alone. We would talk for hours on the phone & then I would hang out with friends. Now all my friends & I have opposite schedules it seems like. Anyways...How do I overcome that icky feeling of being alone & not being able to sleep. I mean I have been up since 5am (EST) which is 4am my time, but I was in Ronoake, VA yesterday morning (I guess)

Anyways Thanks for all of your help I am trying to keep my head up high, but my wife is certainly trying hard to bring it down.

LP

Cerri,

I was reading your response again, since I can't sleep, & a couple of things that I missed.

1) you asked how I react when she rants about my money stuff. I think I get a little defenseive, but I try hard not to show it. I just remind her that I know I have a problem & that I am working on it. I am going to my meetings, etc... I do not try & give her any ammo, but I think there are times that I do. For example in refrence to the phone call when she was describing a basket of stuff that she one the last item she said that she got was a sissors to cut up the CC. I reminded her (I think in a defensive tone) that I have not used a CC since March & that I gave them all to my sister. She responded my I know(in kinnda a sharp tone). I think I slipped a little there. But like I said I was mad.

2...The second thing is that I have no idea what needs she needs me to meet. According to her the om meets all of her needs (This is also in the book. So how do I know if I am meeting anyneeds, or how do I know what needs to fill. To be honest I never new which was were important to her.

3... The last thing is that the m/c or general pyhcologist (sp) I guess I wish I had that list of questions before we started, but he came recomened from a co-worker of my wife, we went with it. anyways I kinnda degresed a little he wants us to bring a list of expectations of when we got married & now, then I guess we are going to compare them & see where we are at. What really makes me nervous & I was telling a friend this is that a lot of stuff that I say in sessions is used by my wife against me outside of the sessions. It is like she doesn't let it go, but it feeds into her feeling that she is right in what she is doing. I do not think that this is a good feeling to have.

ok....ok...enough rambling
Thank you

LP

Another couple of thoughts for you all to consider. I thought of these while I was at work, but I forgot to include them...

1) My wife & I are supposed to be going out of town on Monday morning & coming back on Tuesday morning(going to a concert) Anyways she told me that she told the OM about it & they got into a fight I guess <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Quesstion is should we sleep in the same bed at the hotel, or seperate. I did call & change the room to 2 full size instead of the normal King size. Was this the right thing to do? I told my wife what I did & she said that she doesn't mind sleeping in the same bed as me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Sorry about that...darn computer...Anyways question number

2) We also have a session with our m/c on Tuesday I am thinking about saying that this is the last one until she deceides on what she wants to do. Any thoughts on this...My thought process is this beside burning a hole in my pocket, there is nothing that can be done towards recovery as long as the O/M is around. But I nor or M/C can tell her to do it (even though our M/C has tried to recomened to her that she should end it)She has to want to do it, but she has told me that she doesn't want to & that she feel that she can beat the 1:4 odds of survival....All together now.......FOG. The other thought that I just had was this though, is that our M/C can maybe help with the plan A thing without really knowing that I am planAing. At least by going to M/C we get to see each other w/a moderator & I can show her how I am changing without LB'ing hopefully. Even though I really can't fill EN at counsoling I sure can try.

Any thoughts on these two things.....

LP