I caught my wife in early june. Tape recorder under the front seat of the car. When confronted, wife left the house with our children. She came back and told me that the conversation was with an old boyfriend who recently moved back into town and was only phone sex.(the conversation was graphic, vulgar, and sexual) At first I wanted to believe her so I did. (I had suspected something was going on for a year, but could not prove it) Sunday night a strange thing happened. I woke up out of a dead sleep and realized that my wife was lying to me. She and the OM talked about where the OM was and what he was there for. She and the OM talked about people at their work, in a way that only people who work together would talk(refernces by last name etc.) My wife told this person that he was her soul mate and she could never imagine not being able to make love to him. She told him that they should "end up" together and that the only thing that she would change about him was that she was not the only person in his life. She talked about how he had made love to her and how she felt when they made love. She discussed me and his children( he is on wife # 2 and has 3 kids from marriage 1 and 1 from marriage 2). On monday I called OM wife(disguised of course) to find out where he was over the weekend. Sure enough he was where the tape indicated he was. I told my wife that she needed to come clean about the affair if we were to move forward. I also told her that she needed to call this person and tell them that what they did was wrong and that they would never speak again. She said she would do that. When I called her to ask her if she called, she said she could not find the old biyfriends number. She told me who he worked for, and I called the company and guess what, no one by the name she had given me worked at that company. I began to collect eveidence that she was still talking to OM. Man are people stupid when they are in an affair. She left a trail a mile long. 2 weeks later, she told me that the person was not her old boyfriend, but a co-worker who had since moved to Europe. She is still maintaining that it was a phone relationship and not sexual, and that the references she made to sex on the tape were made up. My assertion is that my wife does not care about our marriage enough to be honest with me. She is protecting him because she knows if this gets out they will both lose their jobs. She has offered to move or quit her job, but only when originally confronted. I have a stack of evidence that points to infidelity and to the OM, but have not shared it as I dont want to give my knowledge away. My wife has a documented history of lying, and I cannot trust her. If she would come clean, I could see trying to save our marriage, but I cannot move forward with someone who cannot tell the truth

Comments Please

You are right about not trusting her because of her behavior BUT I would caution you to think well before you take any life changing action based on what your feelings are this moment. Even if you decided to divorce her and the divorce was finalized this same week, it will not help you heal your wounds overnight, and you will still have to deal with her because of the children.

I know that it's been told ad nauseum but it is very true: 'your W is solely responsible for her A, BUT both of you share equal responsibility for the bad shape of your M'. Before you move on, do some serious soul searching and try to find out what your contributions to the bad state of your M were. The purpose is to leave this emotional baggage behind if and when you decide to move on with your life, so that it won't become an issue in a future relationship. Reading books like the Dr Harley's is one part and another is counseling.

Keep your children in mind before you take any actions that might impact them severely.

Outstanding advice that I will follow. I love my children to no end and I dont want to perpetuate this in them. I know I bear responsibilty for the state of my marriage. I made numerous attempts over the last 1.5 years to re-connect with my wife. I read many books and followed the "How one can make a difference for the two of you" rules to a T. I set up marriage counseling for myself and W, and she never showed up. I ended up going to a counselor 5 times by myself, which was very helpful. I just feel that I have been extending love and been being slapped in the face. W seemed to pull away as I made attempts to reconnect. Now I think I understand why. She was having an affair, and I was trying to make things better. I told my W many times over the past year that if she is not happy with me and is happy with someone else, lets sit down, talk it through and make an intelligent decison to do next. W went on medication in Jan for depression, and cited work. family and kids as reason. W has a documented history of lying. W is still in contact with OM, as they work together. W will not tell me the truth. I know OM is calling her and she denies it. Life is short, is it worth spending it with someone who sees no problem in deception?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Life is short, is it worth spending it with someone who sees no problem in deception? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The obvious answer would be no, but (there always seems to be one, isn't there?) the end of the marriage will not stop her lying and deceiving (divorce does not cure liars). So what can you do? well since you can't force her to change you might want to stop depending on her to make you happy, and instead find happiness in the things you do for your children, for yourself and for others. You can have your own in house separation to start your emotional fitness program so that IF and when she expresses a desire to rebuild the marriage, you can confidently set down the conditions and not worry whether she follows them or not. You have to become emotionally strong before you decide to make any life altering decisions in your life as well as your children's.

Tanks for the reply, I have started an "in house seperation." I also agree that I need to heal before I can make any life altering changes. The question is, when?

She offered to quit her job...tell/ask her to put her two weeks notice in and to put her money where her mouth is. As long as there is continued contact...even if she stops the lying and the affair...you're not going to be able to truly heal...much less work on trying to rebuild a marriage...if that is what you choose to do. She needs a new job NOW!

Lying after d-day is almost a given. They ALL do it. Some in a misguided attempt to "protect" their spouse from further harm, some in an attempt to cover their own @$$, and some because they don't know how to do anything else as they've been lying so long, it's what they immediately fall back on. (ie...it's worked before...it should work again. And as in so many negative things we attempt to change, it usually gets worse before it gets better.)

They almost always attempt to downplay their affair to the least they think they can get away with or else only to the amount you can prove. It usually takes several months to get to the real truth of the matter. So...while this is not acceptable...it is normal.

IF...you want to keep the option open of attempting to rebuild your marriage, then you do need to do some reflecting on your own. You need to make sure that you can creat a safe envirnoment to hear the truth from your W. This is not always easy. Truth can be a very painful thing to hear and between the sorrow and the anger, it can become very "unsafe" for the WS. You MUST be able to hear the truth without hitting the ceiling. You MUST stand firm and not allow a lie to be left on the table as a "truth" when you know it for a lie. BUT...you must do so calmly and firmly...lying is NOT acceptable...you want the truth! You may NOT get it in the beginning...in fact...it's almost a given...but if you continue to stand firm...you have a good shot at getting to the truth. (btw...when confronting a lie, do NOT give your reasons for knowing it is a lie...because the liar will only use that information against you. Just state that it is a lie (calmly).)

A marriage cannot be saved unless both spouses are committed to rebuilding the marriage. My advice is to hire a P.I. to obtain the evidence of your wife's infidelity. The chances are the coworker is married and works in your wife's place of employment. Info gives you power to expose this affair to the OM's wife and employer and make these cheaters feel ashamed of their behaviour. It will also give you more leverage if it comes to filing for divorce..

fff,

The best way to end affairs is Plan A. It has the best chance for saving your marriage and you should use it. Stop hoarding evidence and get this joker out of your life. Confront your wife with the evidence and how it is affecting you and your kids and your marriage. Then expose both of them at work....and to his wife. You can't rebuild until you do this. Here are some guidelines cerri has written up:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plan A as Harley meant it to be...

Plan A is not (repeat NOT) about making the WS happy, or feeling good.

Plan A is NOT, contrary to popular (and very incorrect opinion), about "making yourself a better person," or "working on yourself."

Plan A is ALL ABOUT the straying spouse. In Willard Harely's ever brilliant words, Plan A is a stategy to end the affair and to entice the straying spouse to reconsider the marriage.

So, it has several elements that should be done at the same time.

First is to eliminate LBers and to meet needs as best you can... recognizing that the unfaithful mate may not allow the betrayed partner to meet needs.

Second is to CONFRONT the unfaithful partner with what you know. Doing so (of course) in a way that is respectful and about you... how you feel, how you are affected by the affair.

Third is to expose the affair to the scrutiny of the world. The lover's spouse or s/o, coworkers, family, friends, church family, children, etc.

ALL OF THAT is Plan A. And it should be done as much as possible simultaneously. (If you don't believe me call the radio show Mondays and Thursdays at 1pm Central Time and ask Dr. Harley for yourself.)

Plan A must have a deadline. It's called Plan "A" because there is a second step... aptly named Plan "B." Willard Harley suggests a max of 6 months for men and 3 months for women before going to the next step. If Plan A hasn't worked in that time, it's not going to.

(I challenge you to find anyone who has done Plan A longer than that and been successful. I define successful as the A ending, n/c promised and verified, and the couple working a good recovery plan which includes meeting needs, eliminating LBers, getting in 15 hours a week of UAT, and most importantly following POJA.)
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Plan A is not about being a nice guy. Plan A is about ending the affair.... being a nice guy is part of that, but only part. That's why confronting and exposing are crucial elements of Plan A... and if you're not doing those things then you can't really say that you're doing Plan A.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I am not sure I want to move forward in life with someone who lies to me. W has character flaws, and Im not sure that I have the constitution to go through years of trying to support her while she finds herself. I am not a glutton for punishment, and it appears that some of Dr. Harleys advice is to be a sacraficial lamb. My W needs to make major character changes and I am not ready to support her. She has to want to change, I cannot force that. This is a journey 2 people must make. I am not willing to make myself her doormat!

fff,

If you think Plan A will make you a doormat....you don't understand it. It is in fact to end being a doormat....but it is often misused, which is why I gave you cerri's (Willard Harley's) quidelines because they are SO not about that. There is nothing wimpy about confrontation and exposure.

Should I expose the affair. It could cost the two of them their jobs. If I decide to expose it, who should I expose it to? His Wife, HR, her boss? His Boss?

Please comment

Yes, you should expose it....to all of the people you mentioned. It is part of the consequences for having affairs and the beginning of real accountability. You aren't responsible for the risks they took with their jobs, families etc. It takes secrecy and immorality to continue to deceive all involved....don't put up with it. You have every right as a husband to do what you need to stop an affair. Why protect them?...it only enables them to continue to harm so many people....and you are one of them. They knew that it could mean losing their jobs...you didn't make this choice for them. Just do all that you do with the right motives....and revenge should not be part of it. Preservation of your marriage however....is the right reason.

Thanks, that adds clarity. The reality of it is, I want out of the marriage. I dont have the patience or constitution to be with someone who has such little respect form myself or my children. Leopards dont change their spots! My wife has a ton of issues that I am not responsible for and I dont feel it is my responsibility to see her through her issues. I realize that I have 50% responsibility for the state of my marriage, BUT, my wife has an intimate relationship with another man. Why am I suddenly responsible for bringing her back to the marriage? Sounds like asking to be involved in more and more pain. I have read the struggles of many of the people who have been through what I have been through and at a certain point, it is self defeating. I read as people struggle to get their spouses involved in their marriages. You know what, you have to have strength to leave, not strength to stay. Staying and trying to understand just enables the WS to continue bad behaviors. At a certain point, wether said or not, the behavior becomes acceptable beacuse the faithful spouse stays. I refuse to hurt and e confused for years to come. I have seen enough! I dont know how people can subject themselves to "trying to win their spouse back", because a spouse who will turn to someone else when times are tough is a spouse that is not worth having!

fff,

I understand your sentiments exactly!!!! And I would venture to say that almost everyone on this board has gone through these feelings at some point. So why do we stay? Well I can only speak for myself. I stayed because I still loved my husband and I believed that he could be a better man and husband. He's proven that he can be and I am very happy. If you want out of this marriage.....why are you here? Because you don't need a marriage building site to end a marriage? I think you are hurt beyond belief. I think you are suffering and angry. And I don't blame you. But I don't think you are as sure about ending this as you say you are. There's no shame in wanting to save a marriage and a family. And if you think it takes more strength to leave.....I'm not sure you realize how hard getting past this is going to be. Both options SUCK if you ask me. The way I figured it. I have everyday for the rest of my life to end my marriage. Nothing can stop me if I wish to. I don't have much time to save my marriage....so I decided to try that first. You have the same option. And if you do want to leave.....I completely understand. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I understand and agree, but I just dont think people change that much. The stats on repeat affairs are staggering. I also have been put at a health risk by my wifes actions. How much pain and hurt do you have to endure?

fff,

Both options.....either divorce or rebuilding will require more pain and hurt. And it's damned UNFAIR!!! Yes it is. I wish there was an escape from it....but do you think leaving will end your pain? Not if you love your wife it won't. And I think you do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I don't beleive that anybody here is trying to sell you the idea of trying to rebuild your marriage if you don't want to, but as I said before, even if you do decide to divorce your W, you are still going to have to deal with her because of your kids. So divorce or not, you are still going to have to have a relationship with her and if you read and implement Dr Harley's principles in his book 'Love Busters', you will have some good tools for resolving conflicts with not only her, but with your children, your family and friends as well. Don't make the mistake that many do that divorce will solve all your problems with your stbx (beleive me, as a divorced and married man again, I KNOW).

So healing yourself is only part of what you are going to need to move on, the other part is learning to constructively deal with her (married or divorced) for your sake and your kids as well.

fff is here, even though it is a marriage "building" site, because if you tap "Infidelity" in your browser this comes up as the largest site. The site has the largest amount of information and discussions on the painful subject of betrayal. If he sounds angry it is because we all are. Normal reaction when we find out this has happened. And we all want to see it end. Nice to see that some people move on to have stronger marriages. It is also good to see what factors made it happen.

Those that have rebuilt give us the tools we need. And we see if we do not have those tools, our efforts can fail. One major factor is love, and if it is gone and the other spouse is unlovable, well then, won't work.

It is very hard to work on a marriage where one of the partners is being a lying jerk...as fff is having to face every minute of his life. Why fight for something that is spoiled beyond hope. If the information he finds here helps him see that it is worth rebuilding then it is vital information. If the affair opened his eyes to see that he is married to someone that is always going to cause him pain, then that too is a vital discovery.

fff, there is a stage that you go through where all the past mistakes your wife has made come into sharp focus...and all the good things you have shared get pushed aside. Takes awhile to get them in balance again. The Plan of waiting to get a true meaning of what is happening is hard, but only then can you make a good "next move." Doubly hard is when she is still lying to you during this waiting time.

I would have moved out in a New York Minute if I could. Months later, I still hurt like hell. I don't want to live like this forever, and neither do you. I can't give you any advice because I am no farther along than that. I just wanted let you know that you can have the feelings you have and you can be angry...the Marriage Builders site should be just that, a place where everyone at every stage can get some type of help. Even if it is just to see that your feelings are normal.

fff...If her affair and her continued lying is a dealbreaker for you...that's perfectly acceptable. This is YOUR life and you are the ONLY one who knows exactly what you are feeling and what you are dealing with...and more importantly...what you want.

If you're at the point where it's over...then start getting your ducks in a row. Consult a lawyer and find out your rights and obligations within your state's laws (as most have some small differences). Figure out what you want to have happen concerning custody, CS (set by state anyway), visitations, spliting assests, etc.

While we will do our very best to support whatever decision you make, you may find extra support over on the divorce forum board. (Just a thought)

HOWEVER...move carefully...normally it is advised that you not make any life-changing decisions within the first six months, as our emotional overload can lead to ones we may regret in the future. But, sometimes we just know where we have to go, even in a crisis...so do what you feel is best for you and your children.

Good Luck!

fff,

When I read your posts, I feel the same pain and anger.

My wife is actually making an effort to rebuild our marriage (stopped all contact, going to counseling), and I still feel like divorcing her.

My counselor tells me I'm putting too much pressure on myself to make a decision to stay or leave. It's only been 2 weeks since I found out. He says around the 2 month mark, I will have more control of my emotions and will better know if I want to stay married to her or divorce her. In the meantime, it's all on her to prove to me she wants to make this work.

My fear is that if I stay with her, she'll think she can make any mistake and I'll still forgive her. I fear that the effort she is showing is all a lie. I fear that once a cheater, always a cheater. We were only married 1.5 years when she cheated. Our marriage was pretty good. What's going to happen when things get really tough (kids, midlife crisis, etc.)? Is it possible for a cheater to go the next 50+ years without cheating?

I don't know. If I ever find the answers, I'll let you know.