She logs on without me to read all the negative stuff about herself. I f she wanted to post she could just sday kb96spouse or something.We do take timeouts. Not planned just really me not instigating conversation. I'll be holding her on the couch - Yes we still hold each other and still sleep in the same bed- I should say she sleeps anyway something will start me crying a movie a song a something that sparks memories of happier times b4 D-Day and she'll ask me what got me started and usually the conversation will start from there or something like it. We had a wonderful day Monday. I felt pretty good you know not obsessing We took a bath together that sort of thing. point is Tuesday I found this site and it overwhelmed me how many people are going through this and I be they all felt as I did that they had a strong marriage and no one person could come between them. I thought my wife loved and respected me way too much to risk all that we have... risk our kids futures ... risk our friendship.. our trust for "meaningless sex" regardless of the problems that I mentioned before we were happy. Well more tears more conversation more battles. She asked me what was the difference between Mon and Tues. and I can't answer her. Wed she instigates the conv. so she can tell me all about how much I've hurt her over the past weeks. She ends conv. with you wanted to be honest so here I am being honest. She never wants to be honest about the things I nedd from her the most right now so I can have some closure about the OM. All I've wanted to know is how the first sexual encounter unfolded. Ineeded to know if it was by chance If she had planned it or if he had. Quote from The Crow "call it my need to know" We had already promised each other we would be totally honest so we could get past this. She gives me story. O.K. didn't wash with me. I called OM next day he told me diff. story. That moment hurts me more that any other since D-Day. She wants to know why I believe him instead of her. His story made since. Hers didn't. She lied to me again. When will the lies stop. I guess when she's ready for them to.I have not since questioned her about any encounters or OM really.

I have always thought there was one thing in this life I was good at, and that was pleasing women. I was taught from a very young age to treat women as Goddesess. Loads of heart felt compliments. romance, sex in unusual places massages, hot bath's together lot's of I love yous, cooking dinner, helping with chores flowers on my b-day opening doors, tenderness, helping with kids, lot's of affection, cuddling, adventure all that good stuff I have done. yes I have had the previously mentioned problems but I felt I was meeting her needs. I gave it everything I had My family was my whole life and i feel now that it was just not good enough. if all that was not good what in the hell is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by doofus:
<strong>I emailed Penny last night because I was so pissed-off at Jimmy Mac's posting. (Can you tell from my reply?) And you know what ..... she agrees with him!

I'd like to post some of what she said directly, rather than try to paraphrase, but my stupid email is down, (www.mail.com is a crappy service!). Basically she says that she sees this pattern over and over again, that men think their marriage is going great while the wives slowly seethe inside until they do something stupid and dramatic, like have an affair. She says if men would PAY MORE ATTENTION TO THEIR WIVE'S NEEDS this type stuff wouldn't happen.

I still think this is a load of crap, but I know better than to argue with The Wise One, so Jimmy, please accept my (grudging) appology.

KB96, I think you deserve better than this, but what does an old fool like me know? Talk to the Harleys or Penny, and good luck. (Remember, the purpose of this is to make YOU a better person, so that even if your current relationship collapses, you'll be a better partner in your next one.)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmmmm..... since it's my email we're paraphrasing here, how about I just post it. (Get Yahoo... doofus, it rarely crashes <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Oh, and as long as you're pouring on the flattery, next time could you include talented and beautiful along with Wise??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

First email:
Actually I agree with JimmyMac, it's what I see all the time with wives who have affairs. The husband thinks everything is fine, that they have a wonderful marriage and she is dying inside. It may be painful to hear, but I think it's a valuable message that needs to be said.

OTOH calling his wife names and bashing her is helpful to no one. Least of all to the person who needs to find a way to recover the marriage.

P

Follow up reply:

No it's not blaming the victim. No matter what he did or didn't do, it doesn't make having an affair ok. Nothing does. But when there is infidelity one of the first things that needs to be looked at is what happened in the marriage that made the straying partner vulnerable to someone else?

This is particularly true when the cheating spouse is the wife. Unlike men who have a stronger chemical need for sex and who can more easily seperate it from the emotional connection in a relationship (you don't see a huge influx of male nudie pics directed at women and I don't know of any strip joints featuring men... unless they are aimed at the gay population) women who stray usually do so only after they make an emotional connection to the affair partner.

AND most women only make that connection when it is missing at home. See, you have to really understand the fundamental difference between what it takes for men and women to be happy and fulfilled in marriage. Women need much much more than do men. Men need a wife that looks good, whose willing to have sex (fun, frequent, good sex), and who will play with him recreationally. Men who have those things and who come home to a house that is fairly calm and peaceful will claim that they have the perfect marriage. They are happy and fulfilled... they're needs are being met. (Assuming of course she isn't a b*tch to live with)

Human nature being what it is we all assume that if we are in love with our spouse then the reverse must be true. Since the marriage is happy for us... then it seems logical that it must be happy for the other person. But that assumption is patently false. Because women need very different things in order to be fulfilled. Things that men don't understand and don't value as critical needs because they don't need those things.... and therefore can't see the importance of doing them.

Culturally and genetically women are caretakers. We do things for other people even when our needs are not met in return. We wouldn't survive as a species if that were not the case... taking care of an infant is a time consuming demanding task with little immediate thanks. That tendency carries over into other relationships.... particularly marriage. Women do the things men need because first that's how we're wired.... to be nurturing and giving.... and second because societally we place so much emphasis on those very needs. Attractiveness, sex, recreation and care of the home.

So it often happens that you have a husband who is thrilled with his wife and his marriage. Thinks it's wonderful "perfect," as this guy said and who doesn't have a clue that his wife is lonely, miserable, empty and very vulnerable to someone else stepping in.

She needs things like intimate participative conversation. She needs affection is a way that says she is cherished, cared for and special. She needs a good strong father figure who cooperates in rearing the children in a way that promotes the values the.y believe in as a couple. She needs (in some cases) financial support to maintain a way of life for herself and the children. If she's working, she needs daily responsible help with maintaining the home (not just once a month tossing in a load of laundry when she's in tears from exhaustion) and she needs him to be honest with her. Daily. Every day. Consistently.

Women are way more work than men. More and more studies are showing what I've known to be true for a long time. That if marriages are to succeed then the key is to motivate the husband to create the atmosphere his wife needs to be in love with him. Do that and all she needs in a little push in the right direction. The key is almost always with the husband. And if I could figure out how to do that on a regular basis, I would be a billionaire!

So, it's not blaming him for her A. It is saying that although he may have thought the marriage was perfect.... evidence suggests that she wasn't of the same opinion. And if they are going to recover, then he needs to recognize that and be willing to make changes. (She does too.... recovery is about both people doing what it takes... not just one.... on either side of the bed!)

P

Through this whole ordeal I have never called my wife names or bashed her. bash maybe a little. Yes I have deliberately tried to make her feel guilty. At the time I thought she deserved it and it was my right. I was wrong and have since appologised. As you can see from my previous post before you posted your e-mail I truly felt I was meeting her needs. Call me a stupid man but I've always believed in treating her like royalty. As for missing signs I had a gut feeling that something was amiss but had basicaly talked myself out of the notion because it was so absurd. Or so I thought. Stupid men

Your W might be afraid to post here. Sometimes the WS get flamed, and sometimes they don't. It all depends upon how they come across when they post. If she really wants to work on the M, and has remorse, she will be well received.

Have you ever asked her, what was missing that she had to look elsewhere? Does she even know the answer to that?

Now, what I am about to say, I don't know if I will make sense, because it is almost a never ending circle, so I will give it my best shot.

Your W answered you questions, you did not totally believe her. It is possible that she saw how much this hurt you, and thought she was protecting you by not telling all. (In actuality, we know this really is not protction, it delays healing). As painful as the truth is, it is what is needed to move forward. It is also possible that to her she told the truth. It could be her perception of things, so to her it was the truth.

You called the OM, to get his version of what happned. How do you really know that it was the total truth?

Your W and friend betrayed you. And you are putting more trust in your friend than your W. Why? He lied too? Maybe he is telling you what you want to hear?

Years ago, my H had a friend, I didn't know him well. I thought he was just vulgar and obnoxious. I did not realize that he meant his vulgar comments towards me. His comments always suggested that we get together. I always blew him off as being a jerk. I don't think he took my rejection of him well.

My H and I split once, when our children were little. So called well meaning friends, were not so well meaning. His so called best friend started hitting on me, it was ridiculus. A mutual male friend, tried to insinuate to H that he and I had something started up. None of it was true. Now remember, these were my H's friends. So, how good of friends were they? Not very. I do not like it that H remains friends with one of them. The most vulgar of them all.

Honestly, I would not have any contact at all with this OM. He is not your friend, and he is detrimental to any chance of recovery you and your W have.

I think both you and your wife should write a No Contact (NC) letter to him, terminating all contact. If your W tells you something and you do not believe her, tell her so, and tell her why. Be honest.

I hear that you did many things to make your W feel special. Did you listen to her? I mean really listen? Or was everything aciton orientated.? I really believe that men and women think differently.

----

<small>[ July 10, 2003, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

bump

"She loves to go out with friends to bars and such."

This statement tells me a lot about your wife. Bars are basically pickup joints. The fact that she insisted on going even though she knew you were bothered by it says a lot about her lack of respect for you and her marriage. I don't believe that the double betrayal against you and the OM's wife is the whole story. It probably started with the flirting and dancing with other men. Where it led only your wife can verify. You would be right to be suspicious about what she did with the men she met in bars especially when you look at the fact that she could go ahead and have sex with her best friend's husband in the bedroom she shared with you. Her lack of remorse and indifference to what she did would lead me to wonder whether she might have sociopathic traits or whether she had committed adultery so many times that it no longer bothered her.

I am with BryanP on this issue...she is sick.

...and I hope your wife does read here...I have survived two affairs from my wife...like you, I am attractive, get lots of female attention, have been very, very loving, bent over backwards...you name it...I have done it...DO NOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU READ HERE!!

It IS entirely possible your wife has deep character issues....her lack of remorse is disgusting and wrong... GROSS...that she could do this to you and your children.

I hate to break this to you...but with her attitude, she will likely do it again....I have been burned twice now....you think it is hard one time...

There is NO EXCUSE for her gross conduct! Knowing what I do now, I would NEVER have taken her back....there MUST BE REPENTANCE....or it will happen again...

I bleed for you my friend...

She loves to go out with friends to bars and such." This statement was unintentianly construde.She does not honky tonk every Friday night. She has had very few girls night out as well. I'm sorry for the confusion.

This is KB's other half:
I am very proud of my husband for my defense in this topic matter. I knew that when others read that statement that this is the bashing that I would get, side effect of a underinformed and misinformed crowd jumping to their own conclusions of our relationship. All the advise given here on this web-site should only been given after a full communication of a specific area of topic has been reached;(i.e. people post their delemia, you ask questions to get a full understanding of the situation, they respond to the question, then I feel a true conclusion can be made and then you can give all the advise/bashing you feel is needed.) In my own defense to this matter, I have only gone out without my husband on a girls night out 3 times in the last 2 1/2 years, two of which was at sports bars and the other was go out to eat with my co-workers, thus I invited him to join along needless to say he didn't go, can't say I really blame him on that, but I did invite. So there now that you have a true report on this subject, feel free to comment as you like. He my H, is a wonderful man, not many WW would have their own H standing up for them at a time like this, I consider myself the luckest woman in the world for having him, I love him and this M is going to work!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KB96:
<strong>Through this whole ordeal I have never called my wife names or bashed her. bash maybe a little. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to others who are trying to help you deal with a very painful situation. I'm sure they have your best interests at heart and feel very strongly for you. But the whole concept of MB is based on respect and unless respect is extended to everyone it's really not respect at all.

Your wife did a terrible, thoughtless and cruel thing. I don't think anyone (at least not here) is going to argue with that. But calling her names, putting her down, and making derogatory remarks about her character is not going to help YOU make the difficult choices necessary to save your marriage.

In affairs everyone gets hurt. Everyone. If there is going to be reconciliation, recovery and healing then there needs to be compassion for the pain each person is suffering. It's a very human instinct and desire to want to lash out and and punish the person who had the affair. But that mentality is exactly what led to the affair in the first place.

So a person can be angry, vengeful and punishing OR they can save their marriage. But they can't have both.

WS's get a lot of bashing, particularly here on the infidelity boards. It's a natural reaction. And as Harley says, demands, disrespect and anger are natural instincts. Doesn't make them ok, but they are natural instincts.

An angry outburst is an angry outburst regardless of where it occurs.... including directed at the spouse of another poster.

C

KB's other half:

Welcome! I admire you and your H a great deal for your courage in coming here for help.

The simple fact that you have posted yourself, after some of the things that we argued back and forth about on this thread, says a lot about your strength of character.

You 2 truly do have the best chance at rebuilding your relationship by that simple fact alone.

My best 2 you and your H,
-2long

KB O-1/2, as a BS I will NOT bash you because:

1. I don't know you at all.

2. What useful purpose would it serve to do so?

3. If I engaged in a feeding frenzy at your expense, I would doing myself and my W a lot of harm that could spill over into our relationship at a future date. By harming you, I harm myself and the ones I love.

4. You are NOT a monster, you are a human being.

5. We, BS AND WS, need to learn from one another so that we can overcome this ordeal. We can do this individually, but it is better when it's done together.

With that out of the way, I also welcome you to MB and hope that you will be back and know that there are many more folks that share my views as well.

KB'S OTHER HALF

I think it's wonderful that you are joining your H in this forum. It's true; you'll find a variety of responses here that range from almost vulgar hateful insults to positive objective and supportive praise. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I applaud your willingness to actively work with your H in this healing and recovery. As a two-time Betrayed Spouse myself, I ask you to please try to be sensitive and patient with your H as he goes through the roller coaster of emotions and thoughts over the next few months (yes, months).

Even though you may regret what happened and just want it to go away and be done with it, it is not possible for your H to do so. You both need to be sensitive and respectful to each other and allow each other the necessary latitude to express how you are feeling.

He is going to ask questions, as he needs, to help him through his catharsis. I only ask you to be completely honest. Don't sugarcoat or hide anything. As hurtful as you may think information will be to him, it actually helps to purge the bad emotions. My WW tried to just fluff over the course of events that took place but I kept asking until I got the answers that I was looking for. Yes it hurt me and it was embarrassing to her to have to tell me everything, but until I hit the absolute bottom of the pain in my inner-self, I could not rebound back up again. Please work with him. Believe it or not, each time I talked with my W about the actual physical acts with the 2 OM, we would have sex. And not just ordinary sex, Olympic Sporting Event sex! It was unreal. Of course, I may not be the same as all other men, but I do understand that increased sexual activity is actually quite common during the revealing and healing process. Consider it a "reconnecting" if you will. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Your H absolutely loves you. It is very obvious. You must love him too. Hopefully together you can discover and uncover the reasons that led you to the affair. They may be almost purely within you and have almost nothing to do with your husband, or they can have everything to do with him and the marriage. It doesn't matter really. What matters is that the two of you work together in figuring out why it happened and what can be done to prevent it from happening again.

Oh, by the way, you may not agree with this or like it, but the OM's wife DESERVES and NEEDS to know what happened. I know that it will be hard for all concerned and many drastic changes will take place, but it is an absolute must. As long as one person holds the secret, the affair will continue to have power and undermine the efforts of everyone to go beyond it and truly recover. IMHO. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Welcome to the MB Forum. God Bless and Good Luck to you both! Your marriage has a real chance of survival. IMHO.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ July 11, 2003, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: Blind Sided ]</small>

Blinf sided you hit the nail on the head. We have been discussing (semi arguing) about both these topics last night and today. She doesn't understand how either will help us in the long run. She's resentful that I am still snooping. If she doesn't give me the answers I need for closure I'm going to try to find them myself. Am I wrong for contuing to try and find the truth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She's resentful that I am still snooping. If she doesn't give me the answers I need for closure I'm going to try to find them myself. Am I wrong for contuing to try and find the truth. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What has she said to you to indicate to you that she is resentful? I ask because you MAY be interpreting them differently that what she originally meant.

What questions have you asked her?

Because she told me so. I have been "preaching total honesty" and now I'm going behind her back and being deceitful. I feel she owes me the truth and she doesn't feel that way obviously.

I can only assume here, but she may be angry that you are not willing to just take what she has offered to you so far and be happy with that. All I know is that your curiosity will not go away and you need answers to all of your questions. I do believe that Harley's believe that the BS has the right to ask any and all questions that they deem important to them and to be told the truth in response to them. Angry emotional responses to your questioning only feeds the fire in your mind that there is something more to find out, something else that is still hidden, and it will drive you crazy until you know. I found out that what I created in my mind was actually worse than the reality of it, but when left with no facts to work with or being shutdown when you are making more queries about the A leaves you only to your own imagination and that can get real ugly in your mind. The truth does hurt, but it is a necessary bitter medicine for both of you.

KB's Other Half,

Just a comment about honesty. Given the way your H found out about the A, and what he saw, exactly what else could you possibly tell him that would hurt more? Please think about this. If you want to recover, HONESTY is going to be key. If he is someone that needs to know the details, some are and some aren't, the he needs to know. After all, he already has the mental images of the most graphic proof.

Please consider these comments, as you two work through this.

God Bless,

JL