When a freshly wounded BS firsts posts here, can you let them vent a bit, get their feelings out .... let them feel comfortable and safe here before you educate them with this pearl of wisdom .....YOU weren't meeting your spouses' needs therefore your spouse had an affair.

Your message will have a greater impact once the person is not so confused and upset.

I do not disagree with what you are saying ... but your timing needs work.

Isn't there a part of you that just wants to comfort the newly damaged? Ask if he's OK? Make sure he's not dangerously confused, then offer your wisdom from a WS perspective?

We are dealing with extreme emotional trauma victims. Trauma impairs rational thinking.

Just so you know, I'm glad you and other recovering WSs are here to offer your strength and experience for others in need.

But, take your time with the newbies. Sometimes you have to stop the hemorrhaging first, and then re-construct the accident.

Take care.

P <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ep

Something we all need to hear... thanks Pep. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C

You may be right. I do want to help them--but, giving them 'virtual hugs' doesn't seem much help. The people are in screaming agony and need some professional help.

I was hoping that maybe if BS could see that there is more going on than "WS's d*** got hard so he boned a chick", that BS would realize they need professional help. IMHO, there is a window of opportunity right after D-Day for them to get to counseling. If they wait, they may never go.

Neither a WS or a BS are particulary motivated to go to counseling. A WS doesn't want to go to counseling because all the lies will eventually come out, and WS will have to come to terms with a tremendous amount of grief and guilt. A BS doesn't want to go to counseling because the fantasy he/she has been living in will be dismantled.

I think both would prefer to let BS create another fantasy, and then let the whole cycle repeat.

For example:

Fantasy A: BS is perfect. WS is a monster. If WS just becomes as angelic as BS, all will be well.

Fantasy B: BS is perfect. WS is good, but was under the "spell" of evil OP. Evil OP is a monster. If Evil OP was not around, all would be well.

Reality: BS is OK. WS is OK. They each have faults. They each make mistakes, and WS made a terrible one. They have to start almost from scratch and build a new life based on honesty, understanding and respect.

Jimmy... what you say is all true. And as you know, I agreed with what you said to KB. I think the only element you might be overlooking is that if you are going to influence either party to do something..... go to counseling, look at their own actions, make a change of some sort.... then you need to establish some rapport between you and them. Or at least, your comments and suggestions would be more likely taken to heart if you do that first.

You have to build some level of trust and show that you care before your suggestions are going to get all the attention they deserve.

As I was making my tea and cleaning up last night's kid dinner mess I was also thinking that I wanted to add a thought to what Pep posted here. I do agree that we need to be sensitive to timing and the level of pain and confusion. But in my ever so biased opinion <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> comments such as ::: "she's sick, she's a slut, dump him, get out, throw him out, she's disgusting....." are never appropriate or helpful.They are disrespectful and punishing. And are far more harmful than jumping in a little too soon with educational advice.

C

<small>[ July 11, 2003, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

Mac .....

I agree fantasy recovery doesn't work. Your message is a good one, and you express it well.

All I am saying is ..... you may want to think about your timing, and when your message is most likely to be understood.

Thanks for your response to me.

Pep

Cerri!

You are sooooo correct about the disrespectful namecalling.

I try not to post to those folks I think are verbally combative. That's why I decided to address JMac, who, I think is really an MB helper and NOT a verbal ninja.

What can be done about the name callers? I suppose just reporting the post to admin ..... argueing just invites more combat.

JMac ..... do you have other ideas to help the "Just Found Out" people?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>Cerri!

You are sooooo correct about the disrespectful namecalling.

I try not to post to those folks I think are verbally combative. That's why I decided to address JMac, who, I think is really an MB helper and NOT a verbal ninja.

What can be done about the name callers? I suppose just reporting the post to admin ..... argueing just invites more combat.

JMac ..... do you have other ideas to help the "Just Found Out" people?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I report some. Depends on the forum and how proactive or overwhelmed the moderators are. I guess I'm particularly sensitive for a couple of reasons.

I was once the WS and I know none of that would have helped save our marriage it would only have hastened the end. My current H was the WS and got the brunt of some of that here..... it was a while ago and not nearly as horrible as the things I see now, but it definitely made things worse for us. And I have friends who have been on the receiving end of it here and I see first hand the hurt and damage it causes.

But I guess my real issue with it is that this board is available because of the generosity of Bill and Joyce and the rest of the Harley family. It may be a public place, but it's not publicly owned.... and as such I think that posters should remember that and keep their words within the mind set of Marriage Builders. The entire philosophy is based on respect, care, protection and compassion. If we can't behave that way here with each other then I don't think we should be here.

I too think that Jimmy is a helper. <waving... hi Jimmy!!>

Verbal ninja.... good term.... can I use it?

C

"verbal ninja" hey Pep, that is so great/apropos....you realize of course that cerri and I are going to steal it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think when the "newly wounded" show up here and the pain is so raw, to have someone immediately launch into "what did you do to cause this?" is like getting a double whammy/kicked when you're down. Afterall, this guy just walked in on his wife in the most shocking of circumstances, and the hurt is so deep and so new....it only makes sense to offer some time and understanding before expecting real self-examination. Cyberhugs aren't the only way to help someone feel SAFE (and not everyone style) so that the message that marriage must be built by both partners can be heard. But regardless of styles, it is insensitive to ignore timing. And as cerri and pep have both said....it is about timing, not about the validity of the message. But let's not ignore the validity of his pain before expecting him to examine his part in it. There is no doubt at all, that he is entitled to be horrified, angry and in anguish. Validate first....then seek to teach.

Oh, and validation isn't one sentence...."I know you hurt BUT......"

deleted to protect the non-anonymous <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ July 11, 2003, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

thanks Pep. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ July 11, 2003, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

Jimmy,

I'm going to agree with the ladies here (since I almost started this exact same thread a couple days ago).

For the most part, I love your message. And I think you understand much of the MB stuff.

On the other hand---the delivery needs a lot of work. You've got to soften it up, and not hit harder when your "client" doesn't get it. "Hit different", instead... And timing is everything.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm glad this thread was started because I'm seeing a very disturbing trend here. Everytime Jimmy Mac posts, followups jumping all over the WS follow.

As someone who fell for the bait hook-line-and-sinker I hope I'm being an idiot here, (again ... sigh), but I wonder if you, Jimmy Mac, aren't being a ringer of some sort, and truth be told I was going to email Cerri and Onegoing to ask if they could look into you.

When someone just posts that his wife has had an affair, how can you respond, "She has been very, very unhappy in the marriage.", as you did in the "how can I go on? I'm devastated!" thread. You don't know these people, and you certainly don't know whether this woman is basically a good person who made a terrible mistake, a selfish fool like me, or something worse. Please, let the whole story unfold before you pronounce what has happened.

The tone of your posts immediately shifts the blame for the conditions leading to the affair to the betrayed spouse, which even if it is true in some cases, is a bit cruel when some poor soul is posting here in search of comfort. Some people like me see this as further undercutting of the BS, and before we can control our emotions lash back out, dumping our anger/disgust on the WS. This is terrible because we then wind harming these people's healing process, rather than helping it.

Cerri, I'm sorry, but I just can't for the life of me see any good coming from telling someone that has just discovered that they've been cheated upon that they are responsible for putting their marriage in danger. I don't like to disagree with you, but I think this is NOT being done in a loving spirit.

I hope I'm wrong.

You are definitely upset.

Re-read the initial post from the BS. I think you will be surprised by what BS actually said.

In both cases, BS says that he thought WS was a wonderful person and they had a great M. I assume that BS is telling me the truth, and therefore that WS is a basically good person. BS then says, "I want to save my marriage. What should I do?"

The way to save their M is for both WS and BS to understand what and why the A happened and to rebuild their relationship based upon a better understanding of WS and BS.

In the one thread, BS said that WS is working 1.5 jobs and taking care of the kids, and that BS is unemployed. Is WS an amoral monster? Not likely.

If a good person (and again, BS says that WS was a good person), then WS had an affair because his needs aren't met by the MARRIAGE. So, how does a good person end up in an A? Obviously, WS was unhappy in the marriage. WS's needs weren't being met, and it got so bad that WS took action.

Is it NOT BS's fault that WS's needs weren't being met. WS has a responsibility to identify his/her needs and communicate those needs to BS.

Sometimes WS's needs are impossible to meet, in which case WS has to change. Other times, BS can help meet WS's needs. Usually, there is a middle ground.

But, if WS doesn't change and BS doesn't change, then the M is dead.

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: Jimmy Mac ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The way to save their M is for both WS and BS to understand what and why the A happened and to rebuild their relationship based upon a better understanding of WS and BS.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jimmy,

This is so true....and is exactly what you should tell someone who asks this question. But in the beginning....LEAVE IT THERE....until the parties ask "how" to do that. Because until they are ready to hear how (which is not going to be in the newness of raw pain) the mechanics can seem very uncaring and invalidating. Your advice is right on....it's just premature.

Do tell them the above statement, but don't launch into the whole process without asking questions, understanding the situation fully, getting to know the poster a bit....and walking in his shoes if you can. Imagine FIRST what it is like to walk in on YOUR wife in bed with someone you knew and trusted. Then, begin....with care and concern to help him understand how this situation COULD have developed.

JMac .... would you please post your reaction to my "timing is wrong" idea???

You can see we have more in common than not in common.

Do YOU think your timing needs work? Do you imagine some of your message is more appropriate in the "recovery" phase than it is "just found out" phase?

What length of time do you think the "JFO" phase lasts? .... And what impact can you imagine it has (to a man or woman) who actually SEES their spouse "f***ing" their friend in their living room on their couch?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ July 12, 2003, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Hmmm...a short answer quiz!

"Do YOU think your timing needs work?"

Sure.

"Do you imagine some of your message is more appropriate in the "recovery" phase than it is "just found out" phase?"

The whole concept of "trying to do therapy in a bulletin board" seems a little bit strange, but, I came here looking for help and I got it, so if that is where my input might be helpful, I'll go there.

"What length of time do you think the "JFO" phase lasts?"

Are you asking for the mean, median or mode for the "time in JFO phase"? Please clarify.

" .... And what impact can you imagine it has (tha man or woman) who actually SEES their spouse "f***ing" their friend in their living room on their couch?"

It would be one of the most devastating experience of their life. (For the record, we still don't know what happened with KB96. The story keeps changing.)

----

The people who post are in a lot of pain. It seems odd to me that I am being taken to task for telling them the truth. I guess I should join either the "the WS is a low life" bunch or the "I hear you pain" bunch.

If I was a poster, and I got the "WS is a lowlife" post, it might feel nice for a minute, but it wouldn't resonate in my soul, because it isn't true.

And, to be honest, I think the "I hear you pain" stuff is condescending. These people have REAL problems and need REAL help. It seems to me the first thing that should be said is, "This is a support group. Go see a professional."

Jimmy,

Again, I'm not going to disagree with what you're saying. It's how your saying it that is the problem.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If a good person (and again, BS says that WS was a good person), then WS had an affair because his needs aren't met by the MARRIAGE. So, how does a good person end up in an A? Obviously, WS was unhappy in the marriage. WS's needs weren't being met, and it got so bad that WS took action.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The problem is that it may be obvious to you, to me, and to most experienced MB'ers. But it's clearly not obvious to the WS in the beginning. When I discovered my wife's affair, I came to this site (long ago, pre-forum), read the stuff, and had my "ah-ha" moment. These people haven't gotten there yet.

It would be better delivery to ask them about the state of their marriage, suggest (with links) that they look at "lovebusters", "emotional needs", and the "rule of time". I've made hundreds of these posts to people here over the last five years in the same situation, and THEY'VE come to the realization that they were deficient in some marital skills. All without me beating them over the head (although I have brought out some small sticks for the denser in the crowd).

And I'll guarantee you that noone has ever lumped me in the "the WS is a low life" bunch or the "I hear you pain" bunch. I'm neither mindlessly abusive to wayward spouses, nor am I the warm and fuzzy "you poor thing..." kind of guy. Try phrasing your message using Socratic methodologies---to get them to come to your point.

JMac ...

JFO time frame .... speaking from the BS point of view, I'd say the JFO time frame lasts about 2-3 months .... and that recovery (on the BS time line) only begins after all facts and hidden truths have been revealed and there is evidence of WS remorse and absolute NC has been established.

Remember, this is usually a *shocking* revelation to the BS. Sure the BS may say "I thought we had a very happy marriage." .... and JMac could argue that is not possible that the M was happy, but the truth is, for the BS, it WAS happy enough.

During the JFO period, the rules of physics seem not to exist. Gravity feels different. Air is more dense and it takes more effort to suck oxygen into a BS's lungs. There is a certainty that this pain felt in the chest is indeed fatal and one is about to die.

The body is in a fight or flight mode and an "all alert" has been summoned of the nervous system.

I remember being in this JFO state, looking over at my WS driving the car, and wondering why he could function. He had NOT "just found out". He was not startled by this news. He had gradually becomed acustomed to thinking of himself as a lying cheating adulterous husband. He didn't like the image, but it was not news.

JMac, I am certain the WS has their own flavor of agony watching their spouse in the worst possible pain ... knowing they authored the pain. But, it is not JFO.

JFO is not a time for intellectual word play about the responsibility of the pre-affair marriage. Not yet. JFO is all about minute-by-minute pain management, survival. Takking the next breath without crying. Trying to swallow food without nausea.

The body and mind are in shock.

The WS is hurting, saddened, embarrased, angry .... but seldom are they "in shock" because they already knew about the affair.

Crisis management is the first order. A marital accounting is ill-timed.

Take it easy JMac. You have much to offer, and I am sure your message for newly found out WS's is excellent.

With friendship and understanding.... Pep

Pep