Coffeeman,

You comment struck a chord with me. I have ALWAYS been interested in relationships which is sort of funny given my field of expertise: physical sciences.

But, the reason was survival. My father was in the military and I attended roughly 14 different schools before I graduated from HS. I and my sisters were always the NEW kids and often more than once a year. So the options were two: either figure out how to make friends or be very very lonely. Figuring out how to make friends entailed studying what the local kids did and liked, and how they reacted to things.

Hence my interest to this day.

But, I must say that when I stumbled upon this site over 4 years ago, I really began to learn. It was an eye opener for sure. I knew what people were capable of mentally and physically, but not emotionally. I have a much deeper appreciation of people, male and female, from reading here and seeing how amazing they truely are.

I was going to offer you a post by Billibob, his latest, as to how women often don't "get" communications or even relationships, I don't think so. You can go read it there. He posts here on JFO. But, it does illustrate that many women are no better at relationships than men are.

Anyone ever notice that women have "emotions" and men have "egos"? Always thought that was interesting. While it does suggest that men and women come from a different perspective, it also says they both have "feelings". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Must go.

JL

Thanks JL, and I do agree with your statements BUT the truth is that unless men and women truly make an effort to learn about what makes a relationship happy and healthy, they are just as equally ignorant. In other words WE(men AND women) SUCK!

JL,

I agree with you that both women and men can either be enlightened or daft about emotional and interpersonal relationships. But I also agree that the key to getting marriages on track, seems to be getting the husband's on board. I don't pretend to know why it works, but it just does.

It reminds of a study that was done on children's reading skills. The study was conclusive in finding that the children with the best scores had fathers who read to them and were interested in reading. The mothers participation did not have nearly as profound of an effect.

In this same way, I really believe, that gender may have nothing to do with which spouse is better at relationships or more clueless...but the the role of a husband as perhaps a "leader" figure in the marriage may be pivotal. I simply don't know. I just know that recovery seems faster when the H is on board and committed to the process.

<small>[ July 11, 2003, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But I also agree that the key to getting marriages on track, seems to be getting the husband's on board.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What if the wives are not on board? That would make for very lonely husbands riding the marriage train, wouldn't it?. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ July 11, 2003, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Heck, Star,

Recovery is even better if Both parties are on board.

I think my heretical idea was not so much that men need to get on board, but that women need to understand why men stay away from relationship issues.

I am not saying that men don't LB. But, I am saying that women LB men in ways they don't understand. Just by the way they conduct their relationships makes most men want to stay away. Frankly, if it weren't for sex most men wouldn't want to be caught up in all of the drama, tears, etc. One cannot get anything done. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

So I agree that men seem to be unaware of the relationship, I would argue they are not. Just by training and socialization they know it is a bad place to be day in and day out.

Want an interesting example? Women when polled often express that they would rather work for men, than women. Why? Men are less emotional and more cut and dried about how they approach things.

This does not make men better. I guess I am reacting to the fact that people feel men apparently have control of the relationship and determine its success or failure.

I just don't buy it. What I do buy, is the an approach like MB, where both male and female learn how to handle a relationship that meets both of their needs. Not by manipulation, withholding needs, abuse, but simply recognizing that we each have needs and we are happier if they are met in a certain way. Then life is simple, you have to decide if you care. Plus, the POJA or something like it offers a template for negotiating what each wants and feels needs to be changed.

Men do buy into that easily. Just look at this site. Are men the leaders in the family? I was raised that way, but actually my father always felt my mother was. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Once when he was older, he expressed that she just allowed him to "look" like the leader. You must understand he was a highly decorated, high ranking military man that did LEAD thousands of men.

The reality was that they were a team,always had been. Met during WWII married after a VERY VERY short courtship and were happily married until his death. But, they agreed within a few day of meeting who would do what, what each expected and the set about meeting their promises.

If you look at MB it is sort of that way.

I do find it interesting that you cite the fathers reading to their children affect. I had not seen that, but it sort of counters what was passed around for a decade or two that divorce wasn't a big deal and the lack of a father in the family was at worst an inconvenience.

As I said before, I am a strong believer in team work, hence my objection to the current theory about men defining the success of the marriage. If you read here you sure see more than a few women messing them up, and blaming the H for these decisions seems counterproductive.

One thing I find also interesting as long as I am wasting time not working and wasting your time if you are reading. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Is that men often list sex as their #1 need. What isn't paid attention to is what they list next. What is important to them IF the sex need is being met? It seems admiration, affection, loyality all of these sit up there somewhere.

Look at a woman's needs, they aren't dissimilar, suggesting that neither really understands as much as everyone thinks. Hence it cannot just be the man's failure to understand that determines the marriage success.

I just think that while women are more sensitive to relationships they need to be taught as much as men about how to conduct a relationship. If they don't learn, then it fails as well, no matter how much she complains to her girl friends over lunch.

Must go. This is interesting. I cannot wait for Cerri to show up and blast me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for the thoughts Star.

JL

JL.... tsk tsk tsk.... the only thing I can blast you for is thinking that I would....uhh..... blast you!!! LOL

Ok, my ^%$#@&*())_*&((&*^^% internet was a mess all afternoon... (thank you teenage son <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) So I'm so far behind I can see yesterday.

And oh!!! I want to play!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <boohooing> Doncha hate a whiner??

Later.... C

Cerri,

We'll wait for you to come out and play. Don't worry about that.

JL

CoffeeDude...

First I need to clarify that what sparked my 'Q for 2Long' thread

No! Really! It's ok..... I don't need to know!! <hands over ears lalalalalala> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

He is an atheist, like 2Long, and during our conversation he repeated the old saying 'If God didn't exist, we would have invented him/her'.

Drat, and now you sucked me in.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Now there's an interesting thought, and totally off the topic at hand. I wonder how the Pagan religions fit into that concept.... our entire cosmic view of Deity is very different from the Big Three. Fascinating thought....

[n]But I later felt guilty in that I was using up valuable (and expensive) bandwith with a topic that is not related to the forums, so I did not continue posting to it.[/b]

There's a sentiment that could be shared at oh..... say ...... EN... LOL

Now back to the subject of this thread. You are absolutely, positively(need more adverbs? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) correct when you say that we men are TERRIBLE listeners, not only to our women but to ourselves as well.

I don't know that I would say men are terrible listeners. (Did I say that?? I'm amending if I did.)I would say that men listen and respond differently than women do because their need for a certain type of response is different. AND that neither is better or worse, right or wrong... just different. And that if we are to make a long term heterosexual romantic relationship successful then we need to find a way to bridge the differences.

My point was to differentiate between the stereotypical WH who had a short term fling (ONS) from the WH who had an A and left his BW to go live with the OW. BOTH are bad but different 'animals' so to speak.

You know..... I don't know if I "get" the ONS thing. I get how it happens, but I'm not sure I get the why, outside of addiction which I have some experience with. Yes, they are different animals one being almost entirely about sex and the other being about needs.

You really think that the double standards are changing? That it's now considered "ok" for women because their needs are not being met? I hadn't thought of that. I guess I don't look at it that way so I hadn't considered it. Interesting thought..... I'll keep that in mind.

Pep.... I think the difference between nagging... which I would consider a demand and disrespect and being honest is all in how it's presented. So I could say, "Honey I'm really unhappy that the _____ is undone and I'm wondering what the plan is to address it," which is both honest and asking for negotiation.... or I could say... "I hate it when you sit around and watch tv and I have to take care of everything around here."

But the interesting studies that are coming out, and that I'm trying to get my hands on, show that men handle women's disrespect far easier than women handle men's AND that women who are forced to be respectful tend to just clam up and stuff their feelings rather than bring up issues that are bothering them. The upshot of the findings are that the most successful couples at addressing and resolving conflicts tend to me in relationships where the man is able to listen to, validate and soothe his wife.... even if she's out of line in the DD&A areas.... and then if they are able to work out a solution together.

I know it sounds and feels unfair.... it does to me and I'm on the female side of it.... but it's what some of new studies are showing. And it's what I see in the couples where I get to work with both partners.

But more than that, the problem is in getting wives to speak up and husbands to respond in a way that works for her.

JL...

No, I'm not saying men are the weak link... I'm saying that they are the key to marriage being successful. One might just as well argue that women are the weak link because they take far more time and energy to be happy in the M.

while women are very interested in relationships, they just lousy at them

LOL... lived with a teenage girl, have ya? But see, this goes back to the difference between men and women and how we perceive things. A woman might say that men are terrible at relationships because they don't go beyond the superficial sports and recreation connections. That there's no real depth. It's just not about being better or worse at something, it's about being different in what we need and how we react to our environments.

Women think that men are superficial and immature, and men think that women are catty and overly emotional. Now, all those things might very well be true... and even if it is that's not the point... the point is, if you want to live harmoniously with the opposite gender then you need to get what it is the other needs and then learn how to do it. Even if it seems totally unimportant to you.

I don't beleive the above described attributes suggests people skilled at relationships, just people that are sensitive to them.

I could come up with a list that describes men, but since you know that I could do that... I won't. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I will offer my theory. I think men do in fact want and need a good relationship with a female. They are very aware or as aware of relationship issues as women. The problem is they don't know how to really address them, and frankly the female model "stinks". All of the hoopla, drama, "guess what I am thinking", "you should know what is on my mind", etc just doesn't do it for men. So they simply stay away from relationship discussions, and the subject as a whole.

Agree completely. I think the female model stinks too. (But then I tend to be rather confrontational rather than the "guess what I'm thinking," type.. LOL)

But it's not just that. Even when there is honest sharing that goes on and even real hearing and a real desire to make things better.... the actions that will accomplish that are foreign to us. Men don't do naturally the things that women need.

I have yet to hear a man say.... hey if she had sex with me three (four or seven, name your number) I'd be thrilled to talk with her all she needs. Never, doesn't happen. BUT the converse is true. Women tell me every day of the week, and they show it by how they fall into affairs, they are very happy to have sex with a man who meets their need for conversation (or affection or admiration... but usually it begins with conversation)

I just don't think that they were unaware of the need for a good relationship, I just think they had not seen a good model in actions before. Clearly, women haven't either.

AMEN to that!!

So my point is that I suspect that men are indeed far more aware and sensitive than women think

Oh no... I never meant to imply that they're not! I have to laugh. Every man I've ever worked with eventually says to me, "I'm such a sensitive guy," as if it's something to be embarassed about. Any woman who has ever raised a man child sees that wonderful sensitive being in the men around her, if she's willing to look closely enough.

My statement wasn't that men were less sensitive. But rather that their sensitivity doesn't tell them what women need, because their own needs are different. So they reach out and attempt to meet needs in a way that works for them but not for her and then become frustrated when it doesn't work.

C

<small>[ July 11, 2003, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong>Maybe if we started a grass root movement to have Cerri or Dr Harley run for president next year. I definitely would cast my vote for either of them rather than for any of the two party candidates.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How about I run for pres and Harley can be my running mate? LOL LOL LOL.... My feminist roots just had to say that... But hey, I think we'd have quite the spread in religious leanings covered... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C

Cerri,

I will be back but I dont' have much time. However, one thing you said really facinated me. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But the interesting studies that are coming out, and that I'm trying to get my hands on, show that men handle women's disrespect far easier than women handle men's AND that women who are forced to be respectful tend to just clam up and stuff their feelings rather than bring up issues that are bothering them. The upshot of the findings are that the most successful couples at addressing and resolving conflicts tend to me in relationships where the man is able to listen to, validate and soothe his wife.... even if she's out of line in the DD&A areas.... and then if they are able to work out a solution together.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I have both boys and a girl. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> How did you guess???

The statement I put in bold really intriques me. Given that women are the more verbal (thats the legend anyway), and more supposedly more in tune with relationships why is this?

I know why men accept disrespect from women better than men. We are raised to. Heck, look at TV, women ARE NOT made fun of, men are all of the time by the women. It is a cultural thing really. Women can be "high maintinance" but men really are not expected to be.

But the other statement seems inconsistent with what is popularly stated. So what do you think?

JL

Huh... look at that, a whole hour and the darn computer is still hanging in there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

JL,

Recovery is even better if Both parties are on board.

I would have to say that recovery is only possible if both parties are on board.

I think my heretical idea was not so much that men need to get on board, but that women need to understand why men stay away from relationship issues.

No disagreement there.

Frankly, if it weren't for sex most men wouldn't want to be caught up in all of the drama, tears, etc. One cannot get anything done. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

But what we see here and the current studies don't bear that out. Many men (and women) stay in sexless or low sex marriages because they love their spouses. And, if it were just about sex, one could simply purchase it.

Want an interesting example? Women when polled often express that they would rather work for men, than women. Why? Men are less emotional and more cut and dried about how they approach things.

Is the why part of the poll? I don't know that I would rather work for a man or a woman. I think it would depend on the person.

I guess I am reacting to the fact that people feel men apparently have control of the relationship and determine its success or failure.

I just don't buy it. What I do buy, is the an approach like MB, where both male and female learn how to handle a relationship that meets both of their needs.

But even the great and wonderful Oz...er, uh... I mean Harley... buys it. He doesn't write it, but he talks about it all the time. As do others in the marriage research/saving industry. If you are going to be successful as a professional who works with couples you need to be able to motivate the husband. That's why the MB approach is written and presented the way it is. To be male friendly, right down to the colors and graphics used at this site.

I do find it interesting that you cite the fathers reading to their children affect. I had not seen that, but it sort of counters what was passed around for a decade or two that divorce wasn't a big deal and the lack of a father in the family was at worst an inconvenience.

There's another older study that demonstrates the male and female children's level of cooperation and participation in household chores is directly related to how much the father does in that regard.

Yeah, the old myths about divorce not affecting kids very deeply are pretty much being debunked as wishful fantasy.

As I said before, I am a strong believer in team work, hence my objection to the current theory about men defining the success of the marriage.

Yes, but not to confuse team work with fairness (which marriage isn't) or the amount of effort or work either partner needs to do. There are times when each will need to put out more effort than the other, but when all is said and done, the key to whether they succeed or fail will rest with the husband. Because the wife will only be willing to meet his needs when she feels safe and cared for.

If you read here you sure see more than a few women messing them up, and blaming the H for these decisions seems counterproductive.

Absolutely. There's no excuse for not doing the right thing yourself. It's not ok to place blame. If it's really not working and one's husband is way out of line, then the woman needs to get with the program and follow the steps. Honesty (not drama), attempt to negotiate, and seperation if it comes to that. As I said way earlier today, it's not 50/50 it's 110/110.

What isn't paid attention to is what they list next. What is important to them IF the sex need is being met? It seems admiration, affection, loyality all of these sit up there somewhere.

Generally it's a recreational partner, admiration, and attractive spouse.

I just think that while women are more sensitive to relationships they need to be taught as much as men about how to conduct a relationship.

DEFINITELY!!! Women need to act more, talk less, and learn to be honest in a way that isn't throwing the dishes around with the insults.

If they don't learn, then it fails as well, no matter how much she complains to her girl friends over lunch.

I hate whining. It accomplishes nothing.

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
Cerri,

I will be back but I dont' have much time. However, one thing you said really facinated me. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But the interesting studies that are coming out, and that I'm trying to get my hands on, show that men handle women's disrespect far easier than women handle men's AND that women who are forced to be respectful tend to just clam up and stuff their feelings rather than bring up issues that are bothering them. The upshot of the findings are that the most successful couples at addressing and resolving conflicts tend to me in relationships where the man is able to listen to, validate and soothe his wife.... even if she's out of line in the DD&A areas.... and then if they are able to work out a solution together.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I have both boys and a girl. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> How did you guess???

The statement I put in bold really intriques me. Given that women are the more verbal (thats the legend anyway), and more supposedly more in tune with relationships why is this?

I know why men accept disrespect from women better than men. We are raised to. Heck, look at TV, women ARE NOT made fun of, men are all of the time by the women. It is a cultural thing really. Women can be "high maintinance" but men really are not expected to be.

But the other statement seems inconsistent with what is popularly stated. So what do you think?

JL</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is really interesting isn't it? And I do think it's fairly new research. Harley emailed a brief thought to me about it as new research very recently, that's why I'm trying to get the study myself. There are also some new studies out that show couples who go through some of the very popular premarital communication courses have a higher rate of divorce than those who don't, but that's a topic for a different day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Sooooo.... why do I think that statement is true?

First I think because there is literally no good role model for honest communication in our culture. None of us are taught to say, "I feel____ about_____." Instead we make sarcastic comments, we whine, we demand, we are simply rude. So part of it is conditioning and lack of knowing any other way.

Because women are more emotionally volatile, shall we say, when they finally decide to address an issue I think (and this is from my own experience and observation only) that they tend to have the emotional impact of whatever is bugging them more in the forefront. So where a man can discuss a difficult issue cooly a woman would be far more likely to cry.

So the strength of the emotion on the surface could tend to obliterate her ability to be as cool and as respectful as the standard would call for. When she talks about the issue it will be an emotional event for her. If you then insist that the only way she can bring up things that are problematic is to do so in a way that is devoid of emotion she really struggle with it. And that struggle will result in choosing to say nothing at all.

Now, don't for a minute think that I'm suggesting women should be permitted to be screaming LBing maniacs. I'm not. I think that both sexes need to work their tushes off to learn to be honest and respectful at the same time. BUT what I am saying is that if she's trying to share something and the H calls her on every little nuance of demand or disrespect rather than hearing and responding to her problem, then she will simply refuse to discuss things that are important to her in the future.

The other interesting thing that I think is in this study is that if her H can do that.... listen and respond in a way that helps her solve whatever it is... then as she feels cared for and validated the disrespect will diminish on its own.

C

Why the big surprise that sexism exists in marriage counseling? Sexism is the direct result of well...sex! Like it or not, men being physically dominant does translate some way into the roles we play in life and in marriage. There are some differences....and it isn't in sensitivity or enlightment, that matter in how we respond to marriage and relationships. One of them is testosterone. You have it. We don't (or at least not as much). Men are usually physically larger and socialized completely differently. It isn't hard to understand why women respond so poorly to disrespect since most of the battering in this society is done by men, and unfortunate truth...but true none the less. Women are physically and often emotionally intimidated by men. Aside from that, socialization in this country rewards aggressiveness in men and passivity in women. So when women are disrespected, they tend to close down.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> DEFINITELY!!! Women need to act more, talk less, and learn to be honest in a way that isn't throwing the dishes around with the insults.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I thought this was a ploy to get new dishes.

Seriously, I have been troubled by some of the negative replys to some WS that have come here looking for help in rebuilding their M's.

I did not have a constructive way to respond to the negatives.

Before I post, I try to decide, is my post being helpful or hurtful? Am I projecting my pain, anger, bitterness towards the originator of the thread. If so, that vent belongs on my thread, because it is my vent. It takes alot for a WS to come here. That WS did not cause my pain, so they do not deserve my anger.

I don't like it when others say that a WS is a sick, amoral person. Even though I never cheated, in my own misery at one time, I thought about it. I thought about looking for someone to give me a little happiness. Because I thought it, does that make me sick? Does that mean I lack morals? NO, it does not. It means I thougth through the whole thing, and realized how bad my decision would be.

Nagging/ whining / disrespectful judgements .... in Pepperland 7/11/03

I decided it is appropriate to give a personal example and mea culpa here.

This AM I needed to use the toilet brush. It was missing from where I last placed it. I usually tuck the plastic cradle it rests in behind the toilet in the corner.

.... need brush .... can't find brush

I remember, Mr. P sometimes places the cradle-holder thingy under the sink cabinet. Not there.

I could leave the toilet a mess, but I hate to do that for the rest of the family. I dig under the sink, perhaps it's "fallen down and can't get up" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ........ nope.

I exit bathroom, say to H, "Where is the toilet bowl brush?"

H : "I'll get it for you."

Me: "OK, but where is it?"

H: "In the utility closet." (halfway through the house)

Me: "Why?"

H: "I put it there."

Me: "Why not leave it next to the toilet where it can be used without looking for it?"

H: "I'll get it for you."

Me: "I am not asking you to get it for me, I want to know why you don't leave it in the bathroom." (By now, I'm sure I have a nagging tone to my voice)

H: "I don't like the way it looks."

Me: "But, I need it in the bathroom, and if you weren't home, I'd have no way to know where it was." (still whiney and annoyed) "This isn't the first time you have moved the brush. Didn't you realize that I want it in the bathroom when you notice I keep it there? Why do I need the brush in the closet if the toilet is in the bathroom?"

.... this conversation about the stupid toilet bowl brush went on for about 10 minutes!

(Then I made many disrespectful judgements about my H .... all inside my head)

One of my pet peeves with my H's communication is this: I ask a specific question usually because I am seeking factual information so I can do something better, or make some necessary adjustments .... I need info.

H very often answers a slightly different question than the one I asked. I need to re-word the question several times before I finally get the information I requested. This makes me peevish.

There is no right or wrong going on here. Mostly differences in style.

I called H on my way to work, and made nice-nice with him verbally.

The bowl got cleaned, but I never know where he puts things or why he moves things around.

He's sort of an artist-type .... and you have to make allowances (OH GOLLY! a DJ right then and there)

P <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ep

<small>[ July 11, 2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
How about I run for pres and Harley can be my running mate? LOL LOL LOL.... My feminist roots just had to say that... But hey, I think we'd have quite the spread in religious leanings covered... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No problem with me with who is pres and who's the running mate. We need good people like you and Harley in the White House to help clean up the land of love busters and you two would fit that bill perfectly [Donald Fagen's 1982 song 'IGY' is playing in the background]. I'd have no problem gathering the caffeinated vote for ya. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Good Grief, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I see sooooo many things I want to respond to and no time. THis is getting interesting.

Cerri are you sort of telling me in a round about way that WHEN men decide to communicate that they are better communicators? And THAT is why we have to go second on getting our needs met, because women cannot deal with things as we can.

I find myself in the most uncomfortable position. As an unapologetic male chauvinist, a believer that women are more verbally skilled, and someone who is rather fond of women and their capabilities, I am being told that a RELATIONSHIP hinges on the male skills at communication, better ability at taking disrespect, and catering to the female.

Darn where is my club? I long for the days of the caveman. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I really was trying to become a new age man, I mean I have a 20 year old D, a W of 27 years, and I was WRONG. My parents of the 20's, 30's, 40's, and 50's were right???? The man is the head of the house and responsible not only for financial stability but relationship stability as well?

Cerri, what are you telling me???

I cannot look back to who posted this, but I believe it was Star. You will find something very interesting. It was a study done on violence with in marriage. I used to have the website for it.

When questioned it was found that women resorted to physical violence against their H's more than their H's did to them. This was reported from a study of women. Even more interesting when lesbian relationships were also addressed it was found that the level of physical violence in a lesbian relationship was the same as in the hetrosexualual relationships.

I wish I could find the reference, but I just guess that is another bubble popped, along with a few others today. This stuff is very interesting.

I still maintain that the woman has a lot to say about the success of the marriage. I wonder if Harley is addressing it from the point of view of saving a marriage. Then I would suspect given men's antipathy to counseling and being told what to do, that you MUST get the men to buy in if recovery is going to be a reasonable expectation.

Got to go, keep posting you all. This is fancinating.

God Bless,

JL

JL,

Just so you know....I think women are every bit as violent as men. But they don't send men to the hospital because of it anywhere near as often. That doesn't make them better than men at controlling their violence....only more inept at inflicting real harm. The fact is that men are physically bigger and stronger....and so it can be and often is intimidating to women both physically and emotionally. Loss of control....literally does something to your psyche.

Does this change the way women and men relate to eachother? You bet it does. And that isn't to say that SOME women are violent in a very scary way....but the scales are just incredibly tipped because of biology differences. My first husband once tried to force me into a car when he was angry. I slapped and clawed at him with all my might. He reacted by hitting me back. He ended up without a mark, I ended up with a fractured collar bone. He had far more power. Power counts JL....you guys have an edge. I remember the line from Spiderman that says "along with great power comes great responsibility". hehehhehehehehehe.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Got to go</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah! yeah! c'mon JL admit that you are addicted to the intellectual kung fu with Cerri. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I remember the line from Spiderman that says "along with great power comes great responsibility".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Star, remember that Spidey immediately followed that line up with "This is my gift, my curse."

<small>[ July 11, 2003, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"This is my gift, my curse."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL....and it applies too doesn't it...hehehehe.