</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL....and it applies too doesn't it...hehehehe.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You've got it. Being a man OR a woman is both a gift AND a curse, rolled up in one.

JL.... not conceding, just too busy today!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C

Hi C -

Beter now! Still unsure, but better now... I may call Harley's today if you are listening...

Been gone for a week- so catching up on this thought provocative thread!!! Just thoughts I have as reading through.... For those of you who don't know me, I'm the bs, H had 2 A in other states while traveling on business, and I'm sure longer term A locally(he still in denial).. 2 boys, ages 2 & 4..
********

Cerri - Anyway... time together out the window. With that goes meeting her need for conversation and shortly thereafter affection. As she withdraws (because we know women are not good at being honest and men are not good at hearing it when she is...) sex becomes less frequent and admiration gets the axe too. And we all know how it plays out from there. Which one has the A is often dependant on opportunity and each person's ability to recognize the need to guard their LBnk.

Wow- this is exactly what happened in our marriage. Eeerie reading it. Ugh-- not proud moments...

More and more studies are showing what I've known to be true for a long time. That if marriages are to succeed then the key is to motivate the husband to create the atmosphere his wife needs to be in love with him. Do that and all she needs in a little push in the right direction. The key is almost always with the husband.

And this is exactly what I was looking for. But in looking- I did every stupid thing in the book. My parents aka Beaver Cleaver -made it look so easy. My dad was definitly the head of the house- but he always respected my mom; her thoughts were always part of the equation, and if mom felt really strong on something- he would step aside and follow her lead. He always protected her and made her feel safe. From the car she was driving, to the crowd of people they were in, or when they ran a grocery store together- he would just show up if someone my mom felt intimidated by walked in. He just knew, and would be there beside her. I never saw them argue. They would say- "too much to life, there's no time to argue! They still do everything together, every day, and have been married 50 years. They are side by side. I 100% believe in that 15 hours a week.
Obviously, I wanted the moon in my marriage, and I hadn't even done the work to get to the front door. I've learned so much here at MB....

I also think it's easier to keep a marriage on track- then try and put it back together after resentment, Affairs, dishonesty, and other baggage to deal with. If only I knew then......

Cerri and JL- You know..... I don't know if I "get" the ONS thing. I get how it happens, but I'm not sure I get the why, outside of addiction which I have some experience with. Yes, they are different animals one being almost entirely about sex and the other being about needs.

My thoughts on this - if it's not a sex addiction- which I don't think it was with my H, I think it is a quick need fix(I'm wonderful, I'm great, I can still get "picked up") and for the actual sex of it. I also think it's a way to "see if I can have an affair". Can I go through with it. Will the W find out- and if yes- it's just a quickie with no real emotional ties, etc.. I think it's sticking the toe in the water to see what comes next. And we know what happened next- a longer more committed A.

By Jl--- Want an interesting example? Women when polled often express that they would rather work for men, than women.

I have to agree with this. I worked in a company of about 15K employees. In my office was 150 very close knit workers. In my State about 10K employees. I worked with everyone in my state from the CEO to the entry level mill workers. And it was spoken outloud that women did not want to work for women. Now before you baste me- there is always the few swinging votes of course. I'm talking about majority. The reason- the women who climbed the coroporate ladder tried to be - well, like a man. They would try to be cut and dry, to the point, and all "work".. but with a twist.. Behind the scenes, they were whiney, back stabbing, and very insecure. They would tromp any woman they felt threatened by within 2 miles. Especially since my business was a "mans" business (timber company), they never felt comfortable in the role and were defensive and extremly unrespectful to other women. As the saying goes- when someone is being a jerk- stand back and look- 99% of the time they are overcompensating for an insecurity thus, being the jerk" I wish it wasn't so- but I saw it on a daily basis....

Why? Men are less emotional and more cut and dried about how they approach things.

I don't think this is the total reason- I think it's more security and respect. Men seem to have more respect for their workers then alot of women do. Women spent more time trying to "protect" their position, when men seemed to spend more time protecting their employees as they were secure in the job they were doing. The men who were disrespectful to their employees were the same men not doing a good job and knowing management was looking at them.. so blame the worker.

Back to marriage-- So- if a man is being a "good husband" then he has more time to protect his wife and children then the man who is spending his time "trying to look good" and find blame for his downfall?? Hmmmm............ Maybe this is for everyone. When you feel comfortable(confident?) in your role, you are better in your role and a better overall person? Just random thoughts....

Cerri and JL-- that women who are forced to be respectful tend to just clam up and stuff their feelings rather than bring up issues that are bothering them.

I'm a little confused on the "forced" part of this. But, if you say something to a man 12 times nicely and he blows you off, then you yell at him and he finally listens, it makes you feel "used".. He brought you down to low level- made you lose control. It reminds me of my 4.5 year old right now that is fighting me on everything and would be more than happy to see mom blow up even if it meant a spanking. In his eyes- he still "won". He "made" mom blow up. Well, with the 4 year old- I ignore him.. which works beautifully. He's not getting his way and I'm not buying into the tantrum. But guess what- this doesn't work with a man. Ignoring isn't the answer.. Yes, I'm learning! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

2bm

A quote from the good Dr. himself:

"In general, women complain much more than men about the quality of their marriage. That's because women seem to have a better grasp of what a good marriage should look like. They let their husbands know how to create that marriage by improving affection, conversation, companionship, and sexual fulfillment. If their husbands cooperate, their marriage turns out to be great for both of them. But if the husband resists, it leaves them both unhappy."

ROTFLMAO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

C

cerri et al,

One thing I wanted to add was something SH told me during phone counseling, which relates to this subject. The discussion was generally about Plan A, but specifically about how men and women respond to having needs met. He told me that it was his experience during his many years of counseling, that when a woman's needs are met she responds by feeling prettier, sexier (more willing to engage in sex), and wanting to reciprocate by filling her H's needs. Men respond, he said, by wanting MORE and that it doesn't particularly encourage them to fill needs in response. He ended by saying exactly what we've been talking about here....that it's almost essential for success to have a husband who is open and willing to embrace these concepts....maybe this is why???? dunno.

---

<small>[ July 16, 2003, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>A quote from the good Dr. himself:

"In general, women complain much more than men about the quality of their marriage. That's because women seem to have a better grasp of what a good marriage should look like. They let their husbands know how to create that marriage by improving affection, conversation, companionship, and sexual fulfillment. If their husbands cooperate, their marriage turns out to be great for both of them. But if the husband resists, it leaves them both unhappy."

ROTFLMAO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

C</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The problem I have with general statements like the above is that it MAY lead many married women to beleive in 'Hey I'm perfect, I don't have to change anything. He is the one that has to change' and while it may be true that the man may be the one that does have to change significantly, her complacency and refusal in not improving herself, MAY in the end, discourage her H and say to himself 'The he** with this, she is not worth it'.

I found out a long time ago that leading by example is a very powerful motivational tool in convincing others to do something I want.

I agree that motivating by example is best. But as Star said, men tend to want MORE and women respond by meeting needs....

So for a woman to lead by example i.e. meeting needs tends to not get her what she wants in the long run.

Sorry jumbled and rushed.... actually working today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

C

Complaining via love busters seldom achieves the desired effect.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by T00MuchCoffeeMan:
<strong>Complaining via love busters seldom achieves the desired effect.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, what I have found and what I imagine others who work with couples find is well is that very little of what women do achieves the desired result.

They meet needs in the beginning, hoping to *lead by example* (which is unconditional love in disguise)

When that doesn't work they move to complaints, which generally doesn't produce good results.

And from there they withdraw and don't meet needs. It's at that point the husband usually notices something is wrong and he begins to say all the things she was saying at the outset.... that they need to spend time together, he misses her, misses her conversation....etc.

Unfortunately, very often she is more irritated with him than anything at this, because it's the same message she was trying to get across for years. And by the time he feels what she felt long ago she's made a seperate life for herself. Career, friends, activities, hobbies and sadly, sometimes an affair.

The real problem for someone like me is to get women to take action sooner. While they still care, before they have lost the feelings of love and before they have an affair.

Complain... without LBers if possible. Attempt to negotiate.... a very, very foreign concept in romantic relationships.... and then LEAVE!!! Do Plan B while she still wants the marriage to work.

Nevertheless, studies are still showing that women who are forced to be respectful will simply stop bringing up issues. So the husband needs to decide if he's going to call her on every LBer or if he's going to hear the message behind it and make adjustments. If he does so, the LBers taper off dramatically.

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The real problem for someone like me is to get women to take action sooner. While they still care, before they have lost the feelings of love and before they have an affair.

Complain... without LBers if possible. Attempt to negotiate.... a very, very foreign concept in romantic relationships.... and then LEAVE!!! Do Plan B while she still wants the marriage to work.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok then by your statement it seems that if women want to have the marriage they dream of, and their H's don't respond by having all their EN's needs met or 'leading by example' then what you are saying is that really falls on women to take action via Plan B.

Coffeeman,

Plan B is WAY better than waiting until the love bank is empty. You remember that article "why women leave men"....it seems that they can endure most anything besides feeling neglected and ignore. Under those circumstances, I firmly believe, that once a women leaves for neglect....she ain't coming back. If Plan B is the only way to prevent that, then I think it is far preferable to giving up entirely. Still, there are some steps that can be taken if it's early enough in the process. Radical Honesty for one can sometimes wake up a spouse. "Honey, I am so lonely I find myself attracted to the neighbor." I think Michelle Weiner's 180 list helps some in the event that filling needs doesn't get through and is far better than withdrawal. Women don't just withdraw....they begin to disappear. In response they either react strongly or sink deeper....their taker either comes out and says leave or has an affair! or their giver goes into a deep dark depression and the husband will likely have an affair. Either way....they both lose.

Starfish I'm not arguing your points or Cerri's, all I'm saying is that the initial premise of this thread revolved around Cerri's statement:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"More and more studies are showing what I've known to be true for a long time. That if marriages are to succeed then the key is to motivate the husband to create the atmosphere his wife needs to be in love with him. Do that and all she needs in a little push in the right direction. The key is almost always with the husband."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But according to the last posts by you, Cerri, Steve Harley and Dr Harley (as well as numerous studies), meeting the H's EN's needs doesn't help the W in having her H respond in kind. Then in reality the key does not lie with the H but with the W because of what Cerri said in her last post:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"The real problem for someone like me is to get women to take action sooner. While they still care, before they have lost the feelings of love and before they have an affair.

Complain... without LBers if possible. Attempt to negotiate.... a very, very foreign concept in romantic relationships.... and then LEAVE!!! Do Plan B while she still wants the marriage to work."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

True coffeeman....OR in the ability of the husband to fill his wife's needs before she feels compelled to move on. A woman's recourse if need-filling doesn't work has a far greater risk of ending the marriage. What is the husband risking by filling needs which DOES seem to work to bring the wives around (assuming she hasn't already reached the withdrawal/love bank empty stage?

CoffeeMan and Star...

Yes and yes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm a strong advocate of Plan B. Sooner rather than later in infidelity and proactively in neglect cases. Abuse.... asap.... especially physical. I have zero tolerance for physical abuse.

BUT, if she goes to Plan B... the key to saving the marriage is still with the husband's ability or willingness to recognize that he needs to make adjustments in order to meet her needs in a way that is fulfilling for her.

It may take a radical move on her part, such as PB, but the ultimate key to a successful marriage will still rest with him.

Now stop that!!! I need to work and not get sucked into the Hotel MB!!! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

LOL.....see coffeman....she can't resist!!! If we keep talking without her we can suck her in all day hehehehheheh.

"resistance is futile!"

Coffeedude quoting C: "The real problem for someone like me is to get women to take action sooner. While they still care, before they have lost the feelings of love and before they have an affair.

Complain... without LBers if possible. Attempt to negotiate.... a very, very foreign concept in romantic relationships.... and then LEAVE!!! Do Plan B while she still wants the marriage to work."

Yes, that's true, but it's done in reaction to the husband NOT doing what it takes to make the marriage good for both of them. He is still the pivotal point. And my statement above is how to save the marriage when all I have is a wife who is at the end of her rope.... how do I deal with that situation?

More women seek and are willing to go to counseling than are men. More women buy and read books on relationships than men do. The problem is not reaching the women, it's either reaching the men OR getting women to take action before it's too late.

Checking out now..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

C

Star unfortunately it seems that if we accept the premise that it us guys that are the problem in a marriage and we are not prone to reciprocate by having all of our EN's met, then unfortunately it falls on the W to either accept the status quo and the risks it brings OR to leave and Plan B. Sure it's unfair and we men should reciprocate but if we can't or won't then if the W wants to have the marriage she dreams of, then she's going to have to be the one who gets the ball rolling via Plan B.

You know another ominous thing about all this is that it SEEMS to be that a man whose wife is having or had an affair, and is unremorseful or unwilling to go follow a marital recovery plan, is better off letting her go because he is facing a Sisyphus task.

<small>[ July 16, 2003, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>