</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The problem is not reaching the women, it's either reaching the men OR getting women to take action before it's too late.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But isn't the latter also 'reaching' the women?

Star unfortunately it seems that if we accept the premise that it us guys that are the problem in a marriage

I don't look at men as being the "problem" in the marriage....only reaching them as the "key" perhaps to solving the problems

and we are not prone to reciprocate by having all of our EN's met, then unfortunately it falls on the W to either accept the status quo and the risks it brings OR to leave and Plan B.

yes. But Plan B is a risky business....while filling needs is not. Still, you are right, if she cannot get a response by filling ENs she has very few alternatives.

Sure it's unfair and we men should reciprocate but if we can't or won't then if the W wants to have the marriage she dreams of, then she's going to have to be the one who gets the ball rolling via Plan B.

true again. But even then, as cerri says, the key to Plan B working is the H's willingness to be open to idea of changing his response and beginning to reciprocate.

You know the ominous thing about all this seems to be that a man whose wife is having or had an affair is better off letting her go because he is facing a Sisyphus task.

Sometimes I really think this is so. I have noticed, as I'm sure you have....that once a woman has an affair....it seems far more difficult to bring her back into the marriage. When you look at "why" women have affairs, how they view sex, and how much more emotional attachment is required, it's easy to see why the task is so much more difficult. Most men who have affairs, really don't want to leave their marriages.....most women who do....have usually been thinking about leaving for some time.

<small>[ July 16, 2003, 11:06 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Star*fish:

"But even then, as cerri says, the key to Plan B working is the H's willingness to be open to idea of changing his response and beginning to reciprocate."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This can only be verified once Plan B has been implemented. Plan B can be considered the acid test in finding out if the W has a H that is 'open to the idea of changing his response' or a H that simply doesn't care about her at all. Maybe the reason why Cerri has difficulty in getting women to take action via Plan B, is that they are afraid of finding out that the truth happens to be the latter.

coffeman,

I think that is exactly why. I think most women realize that if the answer is "so what" or "accept me as I am and just deal with it" will undoubtedly mean (in irrefutable terms) that they will either have to suck it up and live unhappily, or leave their husbands and destroy their families.....neither of which are very attactive choices.

<small>[ July 16, 2003, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Evil and cruel you two..... evil and cruel!!! LOL

No, the reason I have trouble with women taking action is because women are "feeling" oriented and not action oriented. As such, we rely on our emotions and our instincts, which tell us to hang in there, meet needs, play "nice." And that eventually things will change. When they don't we leave.... after the feelings are gone, and therefor the motivation.... Because at that point we are driven once again by feelings... but this time the desire to escape the loneliness.

I would WAY rather have a man whose wife is having and A than vice versa. In part because women just want to whine about how terrible it is and men will actually take action. The same phenomena as above..... instinct and intuition keeps her in there letting him walk all over her thinking that if she's "good" enough he'll see the light and come back.

I have very few women clients, unless their husbands contacted me first and then she joined him. I did a lot of initial consults with women who just wanted to complain and have me say it was indeed terrible..... which is partly why I changed my fee structure.

The other thing I find is that if a BSH can do what it takes to end the A he can entice her back if he shows he's willing to make changes. Not fair? Of course not. But there really is no place for fair in marriage.

Oh, and I don't see men as the "problem" either, but as Star said, the key.

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong>coffeman,

I think that is exactly why. I think most women realize that if the answer is "so what" or "except me as I am and just deal with it" will undoubtedly mean (in irrefutable terms) that they will either have to suck it up and live unhappily, or leave their husbands and destroy their families.....neither of which are very attactive choices.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have yet to encounter a husband who says those things. In fact quite the opposite. What they usually say is that they didn't know and would have done things differently if they did. All you have to do is read around the boards here to get that message loud and clear.... P, Hoffs, ALS, MTD to name just a very few. Hey, my X says it all the time.... said it to me the last time I saw him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .... and as I said waaay earlier, I was very explicit about how I felt and what I needed, for years.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
Evil and cruel you two..... evil and cruel!!! LOL</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We sure are, aren't we? It could be argued that we are as cruel as the man waving a twinkie in front of a fat man who is stuck in a window and trying sooo desperately to unstuck himself in order to get to the twinkie that is so close yet out of his grasp. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, the reason I have trouble with women taking action is because women are "feeling" oriented and not action oriented. As such, we rely on our emotions and our instincts, which tell us to hang in there, meet needs, play "nice." And that eventually things will change. When they don't we leave.... after the feelings are gone, and therefor the motivation.... Because at that point we are driven once again by feelings... but this time the desire to escape the loneliness.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Boy I'm glad that you are a woman because if a man had said that, he'd soon find a lynching mob of angry females waiting for him just outside his door. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

But seriously (yeah right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ), doesn't this imply that the MB model for women that want to improve their marriages actually doesn't really work for them? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would WAY rather have a man whose wife is having and A than vice versa. In part because women just want to whine about how terrible it is and men will actually take action. The same phenomena as above..... instinct and intuition keeps her in there letting him walk all over her thinking that if she's "good" enough he'll see the light and come back.

I have very few women clients, unless their husbands contacted me first and then she joined him. I did a lot of initial consults with women who just wanted to complain and have me say it was indeed terrible..... which is partly why I changed my fee structure.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You would think that this would not be the case from the gender that is legendary for putting a lot of importance on relationship issues.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The other thing I find is that if a BSH can do what it takes to end the A he can entice her back if he shows he's willing to make changes. Not fair? Of course not. But there really is no place for fair in marriage.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can see this being possible if you have FWW's like Jen Brown, lost in tx, autumnday, recommitted, forever sorry, etc. that are remorseful and WANT to save their marriages BUT not if you have an unremorseful WW's like those of ALS, hurting12, rookie, rOuter, etc. The latter ones make the efforts of the BH to save the marriage a truly Sisyphus task.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, and I don't see men as the "problem" either, but as Star said, the key.

C</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A rusty key that needs polishing and maybe a little WD-40 sprayed on to improve the chances of unlocking the door. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

So Cerri, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

What you are saying is that us guys with our superior ability to detach and discuss things with less emotion are the lynchpin to this whole thing. Right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

You last comment about you telling your H what you needed struck a thought in me. I thought I would run it by you.

It seems to me that I have heard many women on this site say: "I told him I wasn't happy. I told him what I wanted. I constantly told him what he needed to do."

You know what I mean? Well, it seems to me being a guy, what they didn't "tell him" was WHY .

For a guy, just being "told" may not be it. Neither does "I'm not happy" My response OK so deal with it, because I know being happy is primarily an individual thing. But what I would need to HEAR was WHY.

I think a subtle thing that is in Harley's books and even in the articles here, is that he does provide a WHY. THen men do respond.

A lot of the earlier statements sound like "demands" or simply "disrespectful judgements".

I found that interesting the statement that if women meet men's needs they simply want MORE, but somehow if men meet women's needs they respond and meet the men's needs.

This doesn't seem to square with what I read on this board. I guess I am old fashioned but men go to work every day to meet the families needs and their spouses needs and most of these guys have "jobs" not "positions" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . Yet, somehow that doesn't count?? That is what men ask. The answer is NO, but the question remains: WHY?.

I really do think we are getting far from the original question, but I still don't believe that on average the normal marriage depends solely on the male. I will buy that recovery of a damaged marriage does often depend on the male, because of the less interest in relationships, no matter our superior skills in communications. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

The real thing in my mind is that this is often put into the "which came first the chicken or the egg" when in fact the answer is the rooster. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

In another words it is NOT an either or situation, but has many more dimensions to it, and attempts to pin it on the female or the male may work in specific cases, but not in general.

But, Cerri I will admit that most of us guys would rather do anything than hear "we have to talk."

Well, I must go, but I thought Cerri needed a break from real work. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

[It could be argued that we are as cruel as the man waving a twinkie in front of a fat man

Are you calling me a fat man????? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> LOL I'll let you know I HAVE FOOD ISSUES!!!!


Boy I'm glad that you are a woman because if a man had said that, he'd soon find a lynching mob of angry females waiting for him just outside his door. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Yeah, I know. Which is why I don't usually say it publically... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> There goes the Sagitarius foot in the mouth again.... <sigh>

But seriously (yeah right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ), doesn't this imply that the MB model for women that want to improve their marriages actually doesn't really work for them? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

MB IS WRITTEN AND DESIGNED IN A WAY THAT IS MOST LIKELY TO REACH MEN.

Having said that, which I know doesn't answer the questions... yes it will work for women, IF they are willing to use the entire program and not just the faux Plan A concept that is bandied about on the boards.

You would think that this would not be the case from the gender that is legendary for putting a lot of importance on relationship issues.

I don't see the disconnect. Sure women might put more emphasis on relationships.... but it's on the feeling as opposed to the action end. Women want to TALK about how it feels and to TALK about what they should do.... not the same as doing something.

I can see this being possible if you have FWW's like Jen Brown, lost in tx, autumnday, recommitted, forever sorry, etc. that are remorseful and WANT to save their marriages BUT not if you have an unremorseful WW's like those of ALS, hurting12, rookie, rOuter, etc. The latter ones make the efforts of the BH to save the marriage a truly Sisyphus task. [b]

Agreed, they do. But I still have better success with BH's the BW's. Once in a while I get a BW who is willing to take action. But not nearly as often. It could be just the fact that I'm a woman and that men feel they relate to my knowledge of women and therefore are willing to trust me.... I can't test that idea without changing gender. And that women see me as another female confidante.... I really don't know. But I see it here too, that women don't want to take action because it doesn't "feel" right.

I think that's why MWD is so popular with women... she writes in feeling words. Harley doesn't.... purposely. MB is geared toward men.

[b]A rusty key that needs polishing and maybe a little WD-40 sprayed on to improve the chances of unlocking the door. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Yeah..... but when all is said and done.... ya'll are pretty cute. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

Coffeeman,
Really good thread. I am putting it on my list of recommend reading for people with these kinds of questions.

Just so you know, I think you are doing a great job on MB. I don't think I could dupilicte what you do. ( OK, Star too, and cerri already knows I think a lot of her.)

Many, many people owe their sanity to TMCman, keep it up.

I have been reading this thread, and every time I think of a comment, I come back and it's already been said. Perhaps I'll just keep reading.

SS

Was wondering when you'd show up, JL.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

What you are saying is that us guys with our superior ability to detach and discuss things with less emotion are the lynchpin to this whole thing. Right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Mmmmm.... sort of. I'm saying that we need you to meet our needs, the ones that are important to us... if we are to be able emotionally to continue to meet yours.

You know what I mean? Well, it seems to me being a guy, what they didn't "tell him" was WHY .

Interesting..... I can't say that I could say for sure one way or the other. I did say that I was lonely, that I wanted the kids to have a deeper R with him, that I missed having a parter... does that count as why?

I think a subtle thing that is in Harley's books and even in the articles here, is that he does provide a WHY. THen men do respond.

I think Harley does a really good job of pointing out that what men and women need to feel fulfilled is different and that we each need to recognize and respond to that.

I found that interesting the statement that if women meet men's needs they simply want MORE, but somehow if men meet women's needs they respond and meet the men's needs.

This doesn't seem to square with what I read on this board. I guess I am old fashioned but men go to work every day to meet the families needs and their spouses needs and most of these guys have "jobs" not "positions" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> . Yet, somehow that doesn't count?? That is what men ask. The answer is NO, but the question remains: WHY?.

Because having a job and a paycheck does not meet the need for conversation or affection or family commitment. It's the same as the woman who says.... but I look good and keep a clean house.... sex shouldn't be that important. Because it's not to her.

I really do think we are getting far from the original question, but I still don't believe that on average the normal marriage depends solely on the male.

Of course not. But women's ability to meet men's needs is dependent on getting theirs met. And it takes more time and effort to meet women's needs than it does men's. That's why men are the key.... they need to put in more energy to meet needs they don't understand in a way that doesn't make sense in how they view the world.

Women KNOW they need to look good. It's not escapable in our culture. Nor is sex and the fact that men need and want a good sexual relationship. Our media is saturated with it. But where is the accompanying pressure to be a fabulous conversationalist?

But, Cerri I will admit that most of us guys would rather do anything than hear "we have to talk."

And why would that be? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

Cerri,

You know I am pulling your leg on some of this. But, knowing your femenist leanings, I do find yours and even Harley's responses interesting.

My point in this is IF men are really the ones that have to sort of lead things, then don't you think what men are hearing from the female activists (that is really all that get the air time)is counter productive?

I am serious. I have two boys, and frankly the messages they hear is NOT what you or I would suggest is a good thing. It makes the oldest feel he has little or at best 50% responsibility for things, when in fact, he has more. It means that he believes that he, as a male, is NOT expected to communicate well, or even be expected to "get it."

It is NOT the message I nor his mother want to send, and it surely wasn't the message I was given why back in the 50's and 60's as I entered teenage years and twenties.

I was raised with "if Momma ain't happy, ain't NOBODY happy." But in this enlightened age where women are every bit as good as men, and better in relationships, the message that the male needs to be the leader is sort of lost.

You also said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Interesting..... I can't say that I could say for sure one way or the other. I did say that I was lonely, that I wanted the kids to have a deeper R with him, that I missed having a parter... does that count as why?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Short answer: NO. It really didn't or wouldn't address the WHY? Questions. Read your statement, it is all "I" wanted. While it should be or maybe self-evident that the kids having a deeper R with him, it is not to him. Most men were not raised with that. I surely wasn't. My father explained to me early on: His job was to support the family. His job was to train me and make sure I would be an effect citizen and have advantages he didn't. His job was to set a good example for me, by doing his best and working hard. His job was NOT to be my friend.

His feeling was that IF we became good friends once I grew up, great, but HIS job was to make me a productive human being and someone HE would enjoy being around. He was successful in his goals AND we did become best of friends when I grew up.

If your H had this model, then you were going to have to do more than just state what you did to change his approach to things. Further, in the closer relationship statement you suggest he didn't love them. That is what I would have heard. I know that isn't what you meant, but do you see what I am talking about.

It seems to me that it takes someone very skilled to convince women to approach things differently and then get their H's to understand the WHY of things. As you say, Harley's approach works for males and females, but he is aware of the males less than keen interest in relationships.

Interestingly, YOU are very skilled at these things. If you can convince women that they need to provide the WHY before the Plan B or affair, or whatever occurs it will save a lot of people pain. After these events the WHY simply "I don't want to lose her." But,that won't rebuild the marriage, it just opens the door for the other WHY's?

My opinion anyway.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I found that interesting the statement that if women meet men's needs they simply want MORE, but somehow if men meet women's needs they respond and meet the men's needs.

This doesn't seem to square with what I read on this board. I guess I am old fashioned but men go to work every day to meet the families needs and their spouses needs and most of these guys have "jobs" not "positions" [Smile] . Yet, somehow that doesn't count?? That is what men ask. The answer is NO, but the question remains: WHY?.

Because having a job and a paycheck does not meet the need for conversation or affection or family commitment. It's the same as the woman who says.... but I look good and keep a clean house.... sex shouldn't be that important. Because it's not to her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are saying that family support isn't important? I don't buy that. Look at all the mothers suggesting to their daughters that it is just as easy to love a rich man as a poor man. Or asking what the "young man's prospects are". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

But you see what you pointed out was the needs, but not the WHY doing what we are taught: bringing home the bread is NOT ENOUGH. WHY isn't enough? That is what the men need to understand. I understand the disconnect, as I do about women and sex, BUT what I am saying is that men probably need to know WHY because "feelings" are not our primary method of addressing problems.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really do think we are getting far from the original question, but I still don't believe that on average the normal marriage depends solely on the male.

Of course not. But women's ability to meet men's needs is dependent on getting theirs met. And it takes more time and effort to meet women's needs than it does men's. That's why men are the key.... they need to put in more energy to meet needs they don't understand in a way that doesn't make sense in how they view the world.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah! you have said it. We don't understand and they don't make sense to us. So is it too much to ask that the female in question take the time, to quit "feeling" sorry for herself and learn to express things to us so that we do intellectually understand these things even if we don't emotionally? That is my point.

That is why I think men often don't "hear" these cries for help from the W. We don't recognize them, although in plain english they seem obvious. So does a males thinking (TO ME) but clearly not to a lot of women.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Women KNOW they need to look good. It's not escapable in our culture.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, other women tell them they do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Nor is sex and the fact that men need and want a good sexual relationship. Our media is saturated with it. But where is the accompanying pressure to be a fabulous conversationalist?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I got your fabulous conversationalist right here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I think women need to learn to talk about sex, cars, and sports, then they would find men to be FABULOUS conversationalists. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Seriously, there is a point I am trying to make. Women, talk. They often don't need feedback. She talks, and he says "yes dear" and the conversation continues.

But, really men learn to shut it off, and then when it is serious, they aren't listening. It could be that women need to learn to talk to men, not just expect them to speak the women's language.

Which brings me back to the issue as to who really holds the controls. It isn't as obvious to me.

Oh! and why is that women's needs are harder to meet? Is this just more of the aculturation of women that they can be "high maintenance"? That they believe they are more complex so they act that way. It is also true that men are trained to act in simple ways, when inside things are more complex than it appears women are aware of. So I guess it cuts both ways. Men won't admit to emotional pain, and women flourish in discussing it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But, Cerri I will admit that most of us guys would rather do anything than hear "we have to talk."

And why would that be? [Wink]
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Conditioned reflex is my answer and I am sticking to it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I guess what I am thinking and trying to articulate is that I do see this as both genders having to go beyond the stereotypes that society puts out, in order for a marriage to be successful. If it truely really depends predominately on men, then the current depiction of gender equality needs to be changed a bit.

Do you see my quantary. I don't buy gender equality. I never have, and I will die never believing it. Because I KNOW that equality is a mathematical concept, and is NOT found in nature. At best balance is acheived if only transiently, but what is often found is symbiosis. If people recognize that, and I believe Harley does with his concept that men and women have different needs, then it is imparitive that both males and females learn and respect the why's and the wherefore's of the opposite gender.

Ok, off of the soapbox. Time to get Cerri out of her box again.

This is indeed interesting Cerri, Coffeeman, Star, and others. I hope I haven't made you too offended with my comments.

JL

<small>[ July 16, 2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Just Learning ]</small>

JL,

Just a quick question <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> If you didn't know why drinking a glass of water cures hiccups, would you refuse to drink it, even if you knew it worked? I don't see that this applies to all the other things in men's lives is what I'm saying. I feel certain that my husband (who is not a car dude) would change the oil in the car, whether he knew "why" it was a good idea or not, because he does know the consequences of not doing it. Isn't the fact that things are worsening in the marital environment when needs are not being met enough of a "why?"

There is something that all of us guys forget and that is that there was no way in heck that our W's would have ever married us if we had not first satisfied their most important EN's while we were dating them. I don't care what era we're talking about, men have always courted women and practically no woman ever gave herself to a man that had not satisfied her most important EN's. Once we H's(and to some extent our W's as well) get married, we tend to stop the role of lover that did all the romantic things for their women that are being talked about over at onlyUcan's simple things to turn your wife on(non sexual) . I beleive that if we guys told each other to take care of our W's for if not we might loose them, few of us would find ourselves with a walk away wife or a WW. If this is what Cerri meant by men being the key to a succesful marriage then I have to agree.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">still seeking:

"Many, many people owe their sanity to TMCman, keep it up."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SS thank you very much for those kind words, although there are many folks here that would say totally the opposite but I don't care since I always send them my army of angry, screaming baboons to keep them up at nights. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

STar,

You asked </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel certain that my husband (who is not a car dude) would change the oil in the car, whether he knew "why" it was a good idea or not, because he does know the consequences of not doing it. Isn't the fact that things are worsening in the marital environment when needs are not being met enough of a "why?"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Short answer NO. Need data, look at all of the women complaining and not getting anywhere. THe data is self-eveident, it is not enough of a WHY.

I was thinking about this as I drove over to pick up my other computer. You see men know machines specifically cars will breakdown if they are not lubricated. We know WHY we put oil in the car.

But, what people are forgetting, is that most people and specifically women are brought up with the romantic notion of marriage. It is ubiquitous in our society. Guess what? Men are too.

Even the concept of vows and unconditional love are common. So why would he expect the worsening marriage environment to cause a breakdown? Didn't she promise "for better or worse", "sickness and health" ?

If my car is running poorly I may not know WHY it is, I just know that it is. So do I gut it out and try to make it home or do I pull into a repair place I don't know and get it fixed (maybe if they are good, not if they are not, and spend money to find out)?

When a woman says "she would like her H to have a deeper relationship with their child", what does that mean? Frankly, I don't have a clue what it would mean. I am already doing the best I can. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

When a woman sees we need to communicate more, what does that mean? More of "then she said... and then I told her..., and did you know that the Jones are having problems..." is that communications? I don't think so. I think it is real life soap opera stuff that women find intertaining, and I don't really.

Or does it mean, we don't see enough of each other and I feel very uncomfortable not knowing what you are thinking. I worry that our marriage is going to end if I don't know what you think and how you view me as a W. Now THAT is communications. Or at least a request coupled with a WHY, I should talk about this topic.

You must remember that the concept of and the articulation of "needs not being met" is unique to this site, and is not taught to men or women when they marry. Further, society suggests that if men can make enough, and buy her a new diamond ring every now and then, "She will love this man." All he has to do is shout that he loves her, and give her a ring, right??

Someone posted about their parents marriage and how her father always took care of her mother and they have been married for 50 years. The telling comment was that she didn't really notice what her father was doing. She took him for granted. If she can take him for granted, don't you think it might miss the notice of men AND women what it takes for a good marriage? I do.

You see it seems to me this site is about addressing ASSUMPTIONS that people make about: romantic love, committed love, what makes people happy, how we do and should communicate, unconditional love, and the WHY we should challenge these assumptions. I don't think people are motivated by scare tactics, anymore than speed limits really slow people down.

People will slow down when they know WHY they have to. They will address and listen to their spouse when they know WHY they need to. Why should I learn another language (in this case female speak)? Why should a W learn another language (male speak)?

So I guess you could lay this all at the doorstep of the male of the species, but my guess if you do, it won't help. If we thought what we were doing was wrong, we would have already changed. So, if females want us to change and become "sensitive new age men" we will need to know why and then see some tangible result or at least have hope that we will.

You see you have made another assumption. If a man marries a women and their sex life is great, then children come and the sex life goes down the tubes, and then she works or has more kids and the sex life goes further down the tubes, why should he believe that he can affect this change for the worse in his life? Why?

We are NOT trained to believe that we can change women only women are trained to beleive that they can change men.

So the question comes back, who is in control here? Most men don't think they are. Heck, we are told we are NOT. There is a book that has been discussed many times on this site. I don't remember the name: The submissive W? The something W, and apparently the theme is that if you let men know that they are in control of the marriage they will do a better job. Apparently,it is NOT high on the feminist agenda. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But, maybe what Harley, Cerri, and even Coffeeman are saying is that women need to tell men they do have control of things, more than they ever thought.

Could be. But, I still think people only change when they know WHY they should, and we often make ASSUMPTIONS about our spouses and how marriages work that are not warrented. If you buy that, then I think it rests with BOTH of partners to make this work. Perhaps the woman explains WHY, and the H then responds appropriately. I don't know.

OH! well must get back to work.

God Bless,

JL

............but I don't care since I always send them my army of angry, screaming baboons to keep them up at nights.

That would explain what happens over at my neighbors house some nights. I always wondered about that.

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just Learning:

"But, I still think people only change when they know WHY they should, and we often make ASSUMPTIONS about our spouses and how marriages work that are not warrented.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sadly history has shown that the vast majority of people only change or attempt to change when a crisis is already upon them. For example somebody can tell us why reading Harley's books and implementing their principles will enrich our marriages and our individual lives, but sadly we won't implement them because we don't feel the immediate need to do so UNTIL we have a crisis on our hands like infidelity. Human beings are not proactive but reactive creatures by nature.

<small>[ July 16, 2003, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Coffeeman,

True human beings are not proactive by nature. Which then leaves us with the issue of men and women and who holds the key to relationships. Some are saying men do, but most of our cultural training is not be focused on them to the extent that women are trained to be focused on them.

I personally think it is both, but if it is believed that men do hold the key and must lead, then women probably do need to explain WHY better than: "because I said so." Our mother's used to say that, and we may love them, but we wanted away from them as well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

See what I mean? I really do believe it is a educational issue, or at least one that needs to occur at the point of marriage, not after the affair.

Of course, this whole thread has been slanted toward keeping women happy and in the marriage, but we know that men have as many affairs. So here it must cut both ways.

Oh Well. I have said my piece.

JL

In an ideal and just world, BOTH men and women would share the load equally with regards to the physical and emotional requirements of their relationships, unfortunately that world doesn't exists. If we become obsessed with fairness, we risk ending up alone and bitter in the end. No relationship is always fair to both parties.

I beleive it has been Cerri who has said that one of the differences between men and women is that men check the temperature of their relationships every month or two while women check the temperature of their relationships every 10 minutes. If this is so, then women do tend to be more needy of emotional support from their H's especially when they are feeling insecure about their relationship with their men. Remember that women do tend to be more insecure than men with regards to their looks and other women. On the surface this may appear chauvinistic and an attempt to infantilize women, but we have to toss erroneous PC beleifs to the side and acknowledge how dangerous it is for H's to dismiss their W's insecurities and how vulnerable they become to the attentions of an OM because of it.