Coffeeman,

I don't believe in equality when it comes to life forms, carbon based or otherwise. Men will value what they understand. I believe if it is the female of the species that is so insecure, then it is in their best interest to explain to the male of the species what they needs and WHY. Hence, their role is pivotal. The male can only REACT, if indeed he is as you state.

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:

Men will value what they understand.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not always, and many times a lot of us will value and understand what we had until we loose it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe if it is the female of the species that is so insecure, then it is in their best interest to explain to the male of the species what they needs and WHY. Hence, their role is pivotal. The male can only REACT, if indeed he is as you state.

JL</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Many women have explained to their men why they are insecure and their men have simply chosen to dismiss them because they do not take their insecurities as a serious threat to their relationships. Just remember all those male BS's that have come here and started their stories with 'I thought that we had a happy marriage.....' and after further digging we discover that there were danger signs that they chose to ignore. Could the women have done a better job of communicating their insecurities to their men?, of course they could have but even then there is no guarantee that their H's would have paid attention to them anyway, especially if they had a history of dismissing them in the first place.

One of the things we don't discuss (much) are the hundreds of thousands of people that don't come here, that don't have A's and that live out their lives married. Happily married? I can't answer that but I can look around and describe what I see.

I see people I know that appear to practice unconditional love. My neighboor three doors down, his wife terminally ill. She died a year ago Christmas time, but he cared for her for years. I don't think many of his needs were met, but he was very loyal, and I know him well enough to say that.

What do the others do that stay together but that don't study marriage, or learn what we learn here? Do they do it all by them selves - learn to meet needs by trial and error?

Do they grin and bear it?

Are there some people that have small takers, and large givers and they can get by?

I agree that it is easier to be in love when needs are met, but what do all those other folks do that don't know about meeting needs?

Does this even fit on this thread?

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Need data, look at all of the women complaining and not getting anywhere. THe data is self-eveident, it is not enough of a WHY.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL,

I think there is a great many women who do more than complain. I certainly did. I had many many calm, intelligent discussions with my husband about how his job, recreational independence, and our lack of time together, were affecting our marriage. We have spent literally years apart for his career and hobbies, and it took a massive toll. He listened, he understood, he promised things would change (he always seemed sincere). But they never did. He would promise me the moon. But all the while, our marriage was becoming more and more vulnerable, and his job continued to keep him away from home. Eventually, he went on a business trip and hired a prostitute while I was pregnant. It wasn't because he didn't get sex. It was because it was easy.

I don't believe that men aren't told why. The fact that they don't hear it, doesn't mean that it was left unsaid. I think that men don't BELIEVE that women will actually leave at some point. When I told my husband I was leaving him, he was shocked. It's still a mystery to me how, but he was shocked. I'm just not a naggy and whiney complainer....I know I explained what was happening to my feelings for him clearly and calmly...many many times. All he did was get mad usually. He told me that that's "just the way things are" and he wanted me to like it. But when I finally started making serious plans to leave, he was shocked because he was pretty happy with the status quo. He had his career, he had beautiful well cared for children, I was still meeting needs when he was home, he went where he wanted and when he wanted. I hear this scenario repeated many times on this board.

Believe me, I didn't say anything like "we need to communicate more." I said "Please come and talk to me, I want to ask you something. The children are unhappy about spending so little time with you. Do you think it might be possible to plan something with the boys this weekend? He would say "sure" and sometimes, he'd even do it. But he wouldn't initiate it again until 6 months down the road when I asked him if he could again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So I guess you could lay this all at the doorstep of the male of the species, but my guess if you do, it won't help. If we thought what we were doing was wrong, we would have already changed. So, if females want us to change and become "sensitive new age men" we will need to know why and then see some tangible result or at least have hope that we will.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We all know successful marriages require the effort of both partners, but I seriously doubt that it's lack of information that is affecting the efforts of men. Men seem to understand the relationship between hard work and results in every other aspect of their lives....but when it comes to marriage....somehow they don't see it. They work very hard at their jobs and they can see results. They get paid. They can support their families. They get admiration. And I think if they viewed marriage as another part of their job (as a working partner in the relationship), they might see the connection between working on marriage and the rewards for doing so....and the results would probably be just as immediate and rewarding.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> True human beings are not proactive by nature. Which then leaves us with the issue of men and women and who holds the key to relationships. Some are saying men do, but most of our cultural training is not be focused on them to the extent that women are trained to be focused on them.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with this completely. Women ARE trained to be more focused on relationships, which is precisely why men hold the key....not to problems, but to success. Since men are NOT trained, if they can be coaxed to join the process proactively...the women will do what they're already trained to do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Of course, this whole thread has been slanted toward keeping women happy and in the marriage, but we know that men have as many affairs. So here it must cut both ways.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Gosh I hope you don't really think this. This thread was about how counselors are discovering that they get the best results when the male is active in the rebuilding process. I'm not a male basher, but I think that this kind of relational process is NOT as you say a natural one for men, and so it seems key to have his interest and co-operation.

Men do have many affairs.....probably more of them, but that doesn't change the dynamics of counseling, since most marriages can survive affairs if both partners will join the recovery process. Getting the man to join that process (before it's too late) is what seems more difficult. What marriages can't survive is neglect, and I think men are more likely to put marriage on the back burner when they are juggling so many responsibilities. Unfortunately by the time that men notice the neglect, as Coffeman said, the marriage is already in crisis and the wife almost out of the door.

I agree this is unfair, and puts undue stress on the fellas. I wish it wasn't so. I wish women, could rebuild marriages without relying on the pivotal role of the men. But the research seems to tell a different story.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I believe if it is the female of the species that is so insecure, then it is in their best interest to explain to the male of the species what they needs and WHY. Hence, their role is pivotal. The male can only REACT, if indeed he is as you state.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It isn't the insecurity of women that accounts for the major differences in men and women. And it isn't insecurity that makes women more likely to walk out and file for divorce. It is certainly in their best interest ot explain their needs. It is also in the best interest of men to listen and believe that these things are important enough to undo the foundation of marriages BEFORE they reach the point of no return. I won't always like the role that I have been given, nor will you probably always relish yours...there are times when either of them is unfair....but we are as we are.

Let's say for the sake of argument, that what the research is showing about men being the key to success in MCing is true. How might you explain that?

SS, can we be absolutely certain that a great many of them have not been touched by one affair or more? and can we be absolutely certain that those folks are really illiterate with regards to marriage building? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ July 17, 2003, 05:12 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Star*fish:

"What marriages can't survive is neglect, and I think men are more likely to put marriage on the back burner when they are juggling so many responsibilities."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But this can also be true of women once children arrive on the scene. We often find that many women become so consumed with the children and other activities that they put their H's on the bottom of their lists. It's bad enough and unfair that women get saddled with a lot of the household responsabilities but when many of them add other activities on top of these which further consume more of their time and energy, you have to ask yourself, are they doing this to avoid being with their H's?

<small>[ July 17, 2003, 05:10 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

The reason we should attend counseling is that we are feeling shafted in marriage for whatever your reasons. But more often than not it is the crisis point that brings us here. But in any case, if you attend counseling, then you're beginning to do something.

There is a time for all things. Usually if you feel sick, you ought to do something for the illness. And the sooner the better, so it does not become too deep seated.

Children are definatly a turning point in marriage. There ought to be more preparation with this as well. But usually we just blindly get through. And it is good work but it is time-consuming.

How do folks who have children, and two jobs, spend 15hours of undivided attention together. But they will find a way to find someone to have an A with...maybe an hour of undivided attention.

Values that you share with your spouse are extremely important. A great clue can be how the spouses family behaves. Although that is not an acid test. It can be a clue.

In any case to learn more effective patterns where you have weaknesses is solid help for the marriage.

The demise is when we just keep going and ignore the signs and symptoms. Care all along the way is the preventative therapy.

Sheesh!! Can't a girl even go to a simple wedding shower without being overwhelmed by playtime when she gets back??? What is with you people??? Don't you have kids and laundry and jobs and stuff to do??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> LOL

Alright a few totally off the topic thoughts (and I do mean totally)

I have to tell you guys about this shower. It was for a circlemate. The wedding is Saturday at a park in the city. It will be a Wiccan handfasting complete with circle casting, main altar, and if I'm not mistaken... jumping the broomstick for fertility. The rehearsal followed the shower which was held in the same park.

This is one of the bigger more popular parks in the city and before our circle started using our farm as a place to celebrate we often met there for moons and sabbats over the years. Now, you have to know that as a rule Wiccans garb for ritual. If you saw us at a sabbat gathering you would see Renaissance wear, capes, headgear (a friend of mine has a cat-in-the-hat hat), swords, boots, a lot of black, even an occassional loincloth..... get the picture? We are always gawked at, looking odder than even the odd looking folk who wander through in dog collars and chaps.

So, last night we're at the park and we're all dressed like normal everyday folks.... shorts and sandals. And we're having a little party with cake, candy and gifts. Sitting around chatting and laughing and having a good time.

When....... there begins to arrive a group of people who at first look like bikers, but then we see are dressed a little more.... uhmmmm.... offbeat.... than the usual biker. AND they are ALL carrying (are you ready for this?)..... bullwhips!! LOL LOL LOL

We're all watching out of the corners of our eyes, trying not to stare. One guy gets out some rope and starts hanging t-shirts on clothes-hangers in the trees. It seems they are a whip cracking club and they are meeting to practice and play. More people arrive....

A woman wearing a short black leather skirt and leather halter shows up. That's cool.... but then our attention is caught by the boots.... they are knee high, black, and have been modified so that they have no apparent heel (although they are pitched like stillettos) AND the toe part looks like a horse's hoof. I'm telling you.... there was some serious shoe lust going on in our little group! But, that's not all..... Attached to her skirt at the waist is a long, to the ground, tail of hair... like a horse... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

And then it hit us..... for the first time in longer than any of us can remember..... WE are the NORMAL ones gawking at some other group!! LOL LOL LOL LOL

What a hoot!

C

(You are now being returned to your regularly scheduled topic of conversation <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"What is with you people??? Don't you have kids and laundry and jobs and stuff to do??? "</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, we had them surgically removed and donated to science. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

This very recently from a woman I've mentored... with her permission:

But if I felt safe, loved, adored- I would of "rose to the occassion" to be the best I could be. I did not feel any of those things when I withdrew and I hadn't for a long time.
It took me 5 years before I withdrew. Then the rollercoaster ride
began.

And ....

he's still doing all this crap. So really- nothings changed but...he's being nicer. He doesn't see that we could have an awesome marriage. He doesn't see beyond this point. I now understand. I want more.. I want a great marriage. I want radical honesty. I want him to be my best friend and to spend my free time with him. But since he won't read anything, look at
anything, talk to anyone and if I say anything right now it's like "yeah, right, whatever".. How do I get this horse to the trough!!! And then
how do I get him to drink?????

How indeed......

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But this can also be true of women once children arrive on the scene. We often find that many women become so consumed with the children and other activities that they put their H's on the bottom of their lists. It's bad enough and unfair that women get saddled with a lot of the household responsabilities but when many of them add other activities on top of these which further consume more of their time and energy, you have to ask yourself, are they doing this to avoid being with their H's?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I completely agree coffeeman. Women have just as much opportunity to neglect their H's as men do to neglect their wives. The only difference that I see, is that many of the activities you mentioned like caring for children, household etc. are still activities that require caring for others....which perhaps translates into more training for the give and take of relationships....I don't know for sure. Because women learn to be "tuned into" the needs of others (as part of what we learn to be mothers) it may make it a little easier for us to understand how providing care for others benefits us. I can't say this with any certainty, and I definitely don't think this makes women superior to men in general....but I do think that as JL suggests, that men don't get early training in how to emotionally care for others, whereas we socialize women to do so. Does that translate into women being more aware or prepared for emotional challenges....possibly. I'm really thinking out loud and discussing possibilitites in an effort to understand "how" getting active participation in MCing from men might affect the success of couseling.....since it appears that it does.

Men and women complement each other. We need each others input. One is not superior. I like to view it as a complementary relationship, where one does certain things very well and the other does other things very well. We fit together like two peices of a puzzle.

If only one gets counseling, then the other suffers the interpretations of the one who got the therapy. Both spouses will miss out due to only one person's input. The complete picture requires the two peices of the puzzle present to ask questions, to listen and to learn together. On the same page.

But some men or women are shy about attending counseling due to the unknown of what they will talk, ask and find out. That is probably why so many of us need to be crisis bound before we will talk.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But this can also be true of women once children arrive on the scene. We often find that many women become so consumed with the children and other activities that they put their H's on the bottom of their lists. It's bad enough and unfair that women get saddled with a lot of the household responsabilities but when many of them add other activities on top of these which further consume more of their time and energy, you have to ask yourself, are they doing this to avoid being with their H's? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with Starfish but also have more random thoughts.

Yes- they are doing this to avoid being with the husband's in a round about way. Children bring instant needs filled that were missing.

What I'm hearing from women is several points. In the beginning of the marriage, even if the woman is working, the man is working up whatever corporate ladder he's working on. Yes, this is for the upcoming family and the wife, but most wives just notice more and more time spent at the office. They feel ignored. When the husband comes home after a long day- even if you say very respecfully, "We need to spend more time together... I miss you". He's likely to think "I'm doing everything I can for this family". I'm already working 60 hours a week to make sure I can support us when the kids arrive. But the wife sees it as lonely, unloved, picking the "office" over "me".. And yes- the wife is very insecure at this point.

Remember- most men make more money then the wife. Money isn't everything- but it has alot to do with security. And if the husband isn't making the woman feel secure by filling needs at home, and is climbing the corporate ladder, it makes the women very "needy", very scared (how many wives put the doctor through school to have him run away with the nurse), and the wife turns very dramatic, trying to get her husbands thoughts back on her. Which he sees as nagging, too needy, and he doesn't understand as he thinks he's pouring his heart out for the family by being successful.

Then come the kids. It's a different love but the woman tries to fill in her needs through the kids and totally axes the husband out of the picture. She gets what she perceives as negative from the husband(I need to go to the office, I'm had a hard day at work and don't want to talk). She gets immediate positive feed back from the children. She gets a new strength from the children.. "See I am loved, I am needed, I am a Great mom".

As the wife throws herself into the children, the more bewildered the husband is as to "what went wrong".. And the long slippery slide begins. As the children grow, the wife throws herself into their activities to fill in the time she would of spent at home by herself feeling pity before the kids.

So yes- she keeps her self busy, and surrounded by the children for instant need filling, and when busy- you aren't thinking about how bad the marriage really is.

I still agree with Cerri- it pivots around the man to make the woman feel secure. In the above scenario, there were many things the woman should of done early in the marriage to protect her marriage. Women do have 100% responsibility too. But, men need to protect their wives and fill their needs with the same great care they plan and protect their careers and portfolios.

2bm

Have ya'll seen the new TV show...

A QUEER EYE FOR THE STRAIGHT GUY

It may just be about the most interesting thing on TV right now!

Straight men learning how to become more civilized by following orders from very civilized gay men!

Hillarious!
Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>Have ya'll seen the new TV show...

A QUEER EYE FOR THE STRAIGHT GUY

It may just be about the most interesting thing on TV right now!

Straight men learning how to become more civilized by following orders from very civilized gay men!

Hillarious!
Pep</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OH!!!! What a fabulous idea!! LOL I suppose on a station I don't get.... <sigh>

C

Ya Know!....

There is so much to say. But, I guess if you all truely beleive it is the males that has the primary role in making the marriage work making sure the W is happy, and that her needs are met, and the success of the marriage depends on him focussing on this BEFORE his needs are met and that he needs to make sure she is secure, and that we do control everything, then why don't the females admit it?

I have no problem with the concept that if you are trying to rebuild a relationship as a counselor that it is key for both parties to buy into the idea of counseling. I also firmly agree that men resist far more than women being told what to do, or going into a situation where they feel their life is being controled by someone else.

It is in fact what makes males different from females. I happen to live in a community where there are a lot of professional women. Sadly, they seem to have adopted the "typical" male attitudes toward relationships: the kids are raised by au pairs, babysitters, and often see Dad far more than Mom. It comes with making money as a primary goal, and the responsibility of running large organizations. Something has to go, and it does. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

If it is really felt that men are the key to happiness in a marriage, then why don't mother's raise their sons and their daughters as to the PROPER role of things? Why are males constantly bombarded with the "you are not really needed" propaganda that is sooo common. Why did my 7th grade son come home one time and explain to us that his teacher had said the men are bad and the cause of all of the problems in the world?

The problem you ladies and gentlemen have with me, is that I make a living asking WHY. I think WHY is the most crucial thing. I beleive that most people don't understand WHY. I do believe most people function in ignorance, but that they shouldn't.

I also firmly believe that life is a team sport and the W should value the H,but it rarely seems to be the case societally.

2bm said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still agree with Cerri- it pivots around the man to make the woman feel secure. In the above scenario, there were many things the woman should of done early in the marriage to protect her marriage. Women do have 100% responsibility too. But, men need to protect their wives and fill their needs with the same great care they plan and protect their careers and portfolios. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hard to argue with this. But, let's consider the issue of secure. Does an H make a women feel secure if he cannot pay the bills? Does an H make a women secure if her children have little or no medical care (read insurance)? Does an H make a woman secure if the unemployment check may not cover food for the month? Or if she will lose her new mercedes SUV? Or her luncheons out with the girls?

How does a woman make a man secure? By telling him it doesn't matter how much or little he makes? By telling she will love him IF he meets her needs?

You see I keep seeing these couplings of things. I can see men taking on the females role, but then women will have to take on the male role. It seems to me they are both important.

I came here by accident as many others did, because as Coffeeman pointed I was at the bottom of the "to do list". I was thinking about divorce, because it wouldn't hurt my sex life, or the amount of time and attention I was getting from my W. Infidelity was and is NOT an issue. I came here and learned that I was seeing things the wrong way and also that I have to deal with what I have or don't have.

But the one thing I have learned is I cannot change her. I have to accept her as she is, and I do. I can change but I cannot change her focus on the kids who are mostly in their 20's. So I watch this discussion and I wonder.

I guess if the experts say it is the men's fault. Fine. If the experts say that men need to change the way they view life, fine. But, I think something is missing from this, because no one wants an unsuccessful marriage. No one wants a marriage with no connections or one where one is ignored. Yet, there seem to be many. So the question is are they really ignored or is it the facts of life and what it takes to make a life work in our society. If it is that latter what has to change is the expectations. What also has to change is perspective. On the part of BOTH parties.

So if you guys and gals think it is the males job to determine if the marriage succeeds, then the males ought to be notified AND given credit for the marriages that do succeed. I guess we need to get rid of the "behind every successful man is a woman", and make it "behind every successful man is an angry and disappointed woman."

I really don't know why this bothers me so. It shouldn't, because I fully agree that for marriage recovery to work, both parties have to be on board. I also admit that men like counselors less than women, men are less likely to seek other opinions for any problem.

But, somehow the disconnect that I preceive between society, the professed feminist agenda, and the role that is being discussed here, bothers me.

Guess I am just not seeing things clearly.

God Bless,

JL

JL.... no fair!!! LOL I started a reply to you on the post from yesterday and it got eaten..... and now ..... more ......

You have so many good points and interesting views. I must have chased off Coffeeman with my quote challenge, though.

Ok... back to play when I can....

C

Ok- I'll stick my neck out on a limb.

by JL
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But, somehow the disconnect that I preceive between society, the professed feminist agenda, and the role that is being discussed here, bothers me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I in no way meant to say that marriage problems are all the man's faults. I'm first in line to say I made some huge mistakes. I hope it didn't come across that way. I do think(and please correct me if I'm wrong- as I'm not a guy!) that most men seem to judge if they are successful by the job they hold, money they make and how they are supporting their family with worldly things including food, insurance, cars, trips, etc...

Yes, there are women who will marry just for money and put up with anything to keep the check a flowing in, but women seem to judge success on a happy marriage and children. And by happy, they want a real connection with their husband. They want to feel "queen".. Sound corny? Maybe so. But when a wife feels like her husband is King, and this "king" thinks the world of her, she will do whatever it takes to not let him down.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If it is really felt that men are the key to happiness in a marriage, then why don't mother's raise their sons and their daughters as to the PROPER role of things? Why are males constantly bombarded with the "you are not really needed" propaganda that is sooo common. Why did my 7th grade son come home one time and explain to us that his teacher had said the men are bad and the cause of all of the problems in the world? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I 100% agree. My mother tells me several times a year- "raise your boys to be the men you would want to marry." But I still am not sure exactly how to do this. How to put "concepts" to real life.
And I also see the men bashing around. You are correct that women can say things about men that no way a man could say about women. But I must say- in a couple "stress claims" at work- we prevailed on the man's side proving that the woman talked like a trucker, acted like a trucker, and flaunted herself like a floozie, and therefore should not "faint" when the men treated her like a trucker(no offense to truckers- my dad was one for many years! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> . The laws are changing slowly but surely.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So if you guys and gals think it is the males job to determine if the marriage succeeds, then the males ought to be notified AND given credit for the marriages that do succeed. I guess we need to get rid of the "behind every successful man is a woman", and make it "behind every successful man is an angry and disappointed woman." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Women do give credit all the time, but probably to other women and not enough to the other men. When a man is successful and a giving, supporting husband and father, women tell other women. "Wow- can you believe what a wonderful man Jane married".. But I agree- the men do not hear it enough. And I'm thinking, if you saw a "good marriage, successful man, etc..." You would not go up to him and say "Hey, Joe, how do you do it.. How do you fulfill your wifes needs, make her feel emotionally secure while running an empire".

But, we as women would. It's in magazines what we should do(and some very wrong!). Relationships are talked about in our get togethers of what works, what don't. I totally agree that men are at a disadvantage.

As far as counseling.. Maybe women are more willing to go to counseling etc... because in a sense, this is what we do from teenagers up. We counsel with each other. So the step from a friend counseling me to professional is not as big of a leap. How many women do you know go through a divorce without anyone knowing it. I know none. Women talk- some good, some bad, but they talk out their feelings. I know several men in my office who no one knew was going through a divorce - not even their personal secretaries - until someone noticed the ring gone. So it would seem to be a larger leap from telling no one- to the professional couch for a man.

I saw on Bravo that "A Queer Eye on the Straight Guy" got Bravo's it's highest ratings ever!! I missed the show.... Maybe next week! Cerri- you get Bravo?

2bm

<small>[ July 17, 2003, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: 2boysmom ]</small>

JL,
The things you (and others) have been discussing are general in nature. Blanket statements that work over a broad range of people and situations.

I came to MB only a year and a half ago, and it has worked for my wife and I - worked very well. No A at our house either, but things needed to be better. I found that she did respond to my lead. So well that I can say we have never been happier at anytime in our relationship, including our engagement and honeymoon. Her focus has shifted from the children to our relationship. She tells people she can hardly wait until we retire so she can spend more time with me.

This is all background.

Would you comment on what you have done, and how it has worked for you? I gather that things are still not perfect. I believe there are some people that will never respond, no matter how much work their spouse does. I would hate to think your W fits that description. To what extent has she responded?

It looks like you have strong feelings beause you have invested a great deal into your own marriage and you are speaking from personal experiance.

I would also guess that being a trained observer, you have watched others relationships. Lets leave the world of theory for a while. Would you be willing to tell us what you are seeing?

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ya Know!....

There is so much to say. But, I guess if you all truely beleive it is the males that has the primary role in making the marriage work making sure the W is happy, and that her needs are met, and the success of the marriage depends on him focussing on this BEFORE his needs are met and that he needs to make sure she is secure, and that we do control everything, then why don't the females admit it?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL......ah cuz I don't agree with that statement? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Men don't have the primary role, their participation just seems to be key. Who said anything about focussing on W's happiness BEFORE H's needs are met????