Star,

Cerri has basically said this a variety of ways. I don't have much time so I will offer only one quote </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course not. But women's ability to meet men's needs is dependent on getting theirs met. And it takes more time and effort to meet women's needs than it does men's. That's why men are the key.... they need to put in more energy to meet needs they don't understand in a way that doesn't make sense in how they view the world. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The part I put in bold pretty well says it.

2bm, does it bother you about the male bashing since you have boys? It bothers me alot, because I can see the affect on my boys. And actually on my daughter. Her attitude about her brothers (yeah I know they are brothers and sisters, what else needs to be said <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) and other boys is shaped by this preception that they don't know what they are doing. It is true and it isn't true.

You also made the comment that women tell other women if their H's are doing things well. But, it doesn't seem to translate into telling their H, who is the person that should know.

It is interesting that men are expected to compliment women for cooking meals, being a good mother, etc. But, you rarely hear the converse. That isn't in the woman's magazines.

My comment about salary is one point in case. It isn't that women marry men for wealth all of the time, but it is expected that the man take care of HER children finacially. I realize this is changing with more women in the work force, but if a family goes belly up financially, it is the H's fault not the W's. Yet, this contribution is very frequently dismissed on this site and others. Sort of like we know you are right handed so anything you do right handed doesn't really count. Now what can you do LEFT handed? That is what I want to see to PROVE that you love me.

I find it wierd sometimes, more so in this day and age. Hence my confusion about roles. I do believe in roles by the way, it is more efficient than two people trying to be all things to all of the family. I suspect that idea is antiquated as well.

Must go.

JL

JL,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 2bm, does it bother you about the male bashing </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This bothers me terribly!!! And I mean that sincerely. I am confused and dismayed by the male stereotypes in the media (female too), and I think it is a travesty and confusing for everyone! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is interesting that men are expected to compliment women for cooking meals, being a good mother, etc. But, you rarely hear the converse. That isn't in the woman's magazines.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Respectfully, this is simply untrue. It is ALL OVER women's magazines. I did a preliminary search and there are just too many to cut and paste. If you really believe this....please do try it. Women ARE encourage to compliment and support their lovers and husbands in magazines. Now they are also encouraged to do alot of really awful things too.....so magazines consequently are not my first source for good relationship counseling.

Star,

I cannot argue with you. I don't read most if any woman's mags. W gets GH, that is my exposure. But, I must say that the general impression I get is that men are supposed to work, so there really is no need for thanking them. In fact working hard is often cited as the reason for marriages failing.

This is one of the reasons I am interested in this thread. I want to teach my sons what I was taught. Work hard, focus on doing well, give things your best shot. Unfortunately, that translates into long hours at work, especially if you run a company. So what do I teach them???

I had an interesting discussion with D last night. The discussion what to watch on TV. I announced I was going to bed to read (it was about 9 pm). She was giving me a hard time for being an "old" man. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I pointed out to her that I don't find stupidity amusing and most of the shows on TV in prime time have a basic primis that one of the main characters is an idiot. Mostly it is the male. Or you get one of those delightful shows about meeting your "soulmate" on a show, and then get to choose between 1 million bucks or this person.

Give me a break, you would be an idiot to turn down the money for a guy or girl you met in a gimmick show that you don't know and is keeping secrets from you.

She says: "Dad they all aren't like that." Yeah, CSI, Law and Order, and Dr. PHil (on in prime time here), other than that...

Or you can watch the news with such enlighting segments as men hiring women to be nude moving targets in a paint ball game somewhere near Las Vegas. Now I admit I might have found that story more interesting IF they hadn't fuzzed out the women <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> AND my kids weren't watching the show. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

But, the main message on most TV shows is that people are really stupid and it is mostly males. I don't by either concept actually.

So the point (after a 45 minute phone call) is I do think at best the message men/boys get is mixed and worst pretty discouraging at least as a father. I grew up in a different era.

So the issue is What is the message. Cerri has made some interesting comments about her coaching experience with regard to action and who is willing to take action. I am very interesting in her input, and that of all of you.

I am not trying to tell you all how it is, I am trying to learn how to offer my own kids the best advice.

Must go before the phone rings and get back to writing my report.

God Bless,

JL

Out in training all day tomorrow. Wedding Saturday and delivering kid to camp Grandma's Sunday..... see ya next week unless I get a little chance to pop in over the weekend.

Don't hold your breath though... my special order grout is in and there is a floor calling my name! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

I think that it is dangerous for either gender to get complacent by saying 'I'm not the one with the problem, it is s/he that's got the problem'. BOTH genders must do everything in their power to not take each other for granted. In the situation where the woman has clearly communicated her needs to her man, and he hasn't taken her seriously and attempted to satisfy those needs, then the woman should take action and if necessary, Plan B until her H expresses a willingness to do his part to heal the marriage. If she's a mother, she may not want to disolve the marriage for fear of harming the children BUT she does her children no favors by becoming a sad and lonely person living in a loveless marriage. It has been said in the past that the greatest gift a wife and a husband can give to their children is a happy marriage. If this is true then the W and/ or the H must be willing to make the difficult choices that have a good chance of making the marriage a much better one than the present one. Otherwise, nothing will change and both of them will be extremely unhappy spouses and parents.

[P.S.Pepper, my W and I saw the two episodes of Bravo's 'Queer Eye For The Straight Guy' and we couldn't stop laughing our rear ends off, even after we went to bed (talk about mental images). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ]

Okayyyyyyy, time for a fresh perspective.

I'm a woman. My partner is a woman.

What I've read so far in this thread is both dung and gold. The hard part is separating the two, and it's a messy job all around.

As I've read the comments, I've nodded my head several times saying, "Yep, I act like a woman." And then later, "Yep, I act like a man." And then I think, "Yep, my WS acts like a woman." And then I read some more and my reaction is "Yep, my WS acts like a man."

What's the point here? I think it's just that all people have all of the tendencies, good AND bad. Saying that men are like this and women are like that? Sure, it's probably more or less true on average.

But Cerri's got female clients who -can- do what needs to be done, so it's not impossible. I'm one of 'em, and in a "unique" situation in which I cannot implement Plan A or Plan B. It sucks. Maybe I'll implement the 180 list like CarolK did...

Anyway, my point here is that there is little advantage to arguing over who's key to all this working. Both people MAY be key. If the marriage is to succeed, both people ARE key.

And anyone can play any role, even when the common role for their sex isn't the one they take.

J,

I am inclined to believe exactly what you do. It is afterall the most logical way of looking at this situation. The problem is that it doesn't explain what counselors are discovering in "practice". Apparently, there seems to be a correlation of some kind between male involvement and successful recovery in relationships. So I think what we're trying to explore, is why that it so? We can say it isn't so, and hang on to what "should" be so, but it doesn't explain the contradictory evidence.

Believe me, I'm just as confounded as you are LOL!

<small>[ July 19, 2003, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Cerri commented in a few posts back that one of the thing she's noticed in her practice is that most of her women clients, unlike her men clients, are more inclined to talk than to take action to recover their marriage. If her experience is universal, then I can understand why the studies say that men are the key to marital recovery IF those men take action to fulfill their wive's EN. But how many marriages can last if the H is the only spouse following the Harley principles?

You have no idea how much this thread and the thoughts and opinions here has been consuming my little brain!! LOL In fact, it's been inspiration for new insights for articles I have started.

Ok, still way behind. Still haven't read the newest posts. But this was in my email today and I thought it would fit well here. JL, I think you'll like much of what it says. From the (FREE) Smart Marriages Newsletter www.smartmarriages.com

C
~~~~~~~

PAT LOVE'S LOVE RECIPE

The Love Recipe
DR. PAT LOVE reveals 10 amazing ways to
keep your relationship cooking.

What does Dr. Pat Love know about making love last? As the author of
Truth
About Love: The Highs, Lows and How You Can Make It Last Forever (Simon
&
Schuster, 2001), Hot Monogamy: Essential Steps to More Passionate
Intimate
Lovemaking (Penguin, 1994) and the upcoming How to Ruin a Perfectly
Good
Relationship, it¹s her business to know how to succeed at maintaining a
strong relationship. That¹s why we asked her to unlock the key ways to
preserve your love affair after you¹re named husband and wife. Here are
Dr.
Love¹s 10 strategies to keeping your union vibrant and steamy‹long
after the
honeymoon is over.

1 PLAY UP THE POSITIVE Always look for the best in your partner. It
takes a
genuine effort to keep criticism, withdrawal, defensiveness and
contempt out
of your relationship, but it makes a big difference. The newest
research on
extramarital affairs points out that the cause is not sex or
excitement. It
usually stems from someone outside the marriage taking the time to make
them
feel wonderful, giving them genuine compliments or displaying a good
attitude toward gestures they have made. Positive attention is an
incredibly
alluring aphrodisiac. If you have a negative attitude, studies show
that
you¹ll have a slim chance of holding on to that relationship.

2 IT¹S THE RELATIONSHIP STUPID Smart couples make this statement a
daily
mantra. It¹s really about making room for "the relationship" as the
third
component to what you might have thought only consisted of two parts,
you
and him. Let¹s say you have a big decision to make and you¹re really
torn up
about it. You should stop, take a deep breath and consider how it will
affect your relationship. It can be hard because your first impulse is
to
think about how it will change your life right now. But the real
question to
ask yourself is: what is best for our union? When you and your partner
are
in conflict, step back and shift the way you both approach the issue.
You
want to resolve it based on how it will influence that entity‹the
relationship‹first, even if it means you¹ll be personally disappointed
at
that particular moment.

3 VIVE LA DIFFERENCE Women are especially guilty of expecting men to be
exactly like them. But couples need to accept that it¹s actually your
differences that will maintain the passion in your marriage. In the
beginning, you¹re often attracted to your similarities, but as the
relationship grows, it will be the contrasts that keep it interesting.
Sure,
it will challenge a couple, and ultimately force them to respond to
each
other in new ways, but it¹s good to remember that humans are always in
a
state of flux, with things changing all the time. The more prepared you
both
are for adjustments, the smoother the ride will be.

4 GOOOAAAAALLL! People have no problem setting goals for themselves in
their
work life, with weight loss and fitness, and their financial status.
Use
rituals like anniversaries or New Year¹s Eve to sit down and talk about
relationship goals for the year. Dr. Love even has friends who renew
their
marriage contract every year after they¹ve discussed their hopes for
the
coming year. Target simple things like being kinder to one another; a
more
attentive lover; or turning off the TV once a week to spend time
talking to
each other about the things you never have enough time to share. Then,
as
with any other goal you¹ve reached: Make sure to celebrate your
achievements.

5 FAIR PLAY: THE ULTIMATE FOREPLAY Tit-for-tat is no way to keep a
marriage
strong. Emphasize equity, not equality, in your relationship, because
it
promotes all-around fairness and prevents scorekeeping. If you¹re
constantly
nit-picking and keeping track of who gets what, you¹re probably not
looking
at the big picture, which is about evenhandedness, not hardheadedness.

6 PUT A KABASH ON THE COFFEEE KLATCH Women are often guilty of turning
to
their female friends for support, leaving their husbands missing out on
their important feelings. When the shared intimacy that this dialogue
can
produce is directed outside the marriage, it¹s almost a sort of
infidelity.
Sharing those deepest thoughts, dreams and ambition should belong
solely
inside the marriage. Keep some things just between you and your
partner.
There is a great amount of pride in a relationship when two partners
resolve
an issue in privacy, on their own.

7 FRIENDS DON¹T LET FRIENDS DISAPPROVE OF THEIR MARRIAGE Hang around
with
other couples who support your marriage. This means finding couples
that you
know are happy in their relationship and happy themselves. These
couples are
good role models, and set a good example of how you two should treat
each
other. Couples who are having difficulty will undercut your
relationship,
and marriage in general, often without realizing it. And it¹s really
easy to
start behaving badly when other people around you are behaving badly.
Rather, you want to surround yourself with friends who support the
institution of marriage and truly believe in you as a couple.

8 THE TOUCHY-FEELY FACTOR There¹s no better proof of your love than
displaying it in tangible ways. Happy, stable couples show their love
on a
regular basis with many acts of kindness each day. It¹s the little
gestures
that go a long way. You should both ask yourself: Do I smile at him? Do
I
offer him coffee when I pour myself a cup? Do I cook her dinner when I
know
she¹s had a really long day? Do I take the dog for a long walk so she
can
have some time to herself? This will nourish the love between you,
showing
your partner how much you care.

9 LONG LIVE PASSION! (and we don¹t mean sex) Whether it¹s about
fly-fishing,
golf, music or sex, it¹s vital to accept what your partner is
passionate
about in life. It¹s also crucial to encourage him to keep up those
favorite
pastimes‹and for you to try and share in that interest. Research shows
that
couples who make sacrifices for each other¹s kicks in life have the
stronger
relationships. So make sure you¹re open about your own irresistible
urges in
life because, psst, passion is contagious. When one partner gets revved
up
about something, it often gets passed along.

10 BENEVOLENCE IS BEAUTIFUL Do you really know what he or she wants in
life?
To know the answer is a key to a successful union. It¹s easy to project
your
own ideas of what you like onto your mate, but that¹s missing the
point. If
you really want to make your partner happy, take the time to discover
the
little thing that will make them happy and then give it. It makes a
person
feel loved and appreciated, letting them know you truly understand what
they
desire. Think like a detective in your relationship and learn what
makes
your partner tick. Figuratively or literally, wrap it up in a pretty
bow and
give it as a gift.

Summer 2003 Elegant Bride‹as told by Dr. Pat Love to Kimberly Stevens

Hey Cerri, here's something from 'The Relationship Cure' by John M Gottman Ph.D. Specifically the section titled 'The difference between men and women' page 56:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Many factors influence the way people bid(an expression that says 'I want to feel connected to you') and respond to bids, and gender is certainly one of those factors. A few key points of difference, which emerged from our studies of husbands and wives, merit special attention.

First, we learned that husbands in happy marriages turned toward their spouses with much greater frequency than husbands in unhappy marriages did. But wives turned toward their partners with the same frequency whether their marriages were happy or not.

We can conclude from this that men may hold a significant key to determining whether or not their marriages will succeed. While wive's attention to their husband's needs is always important, it's the additional benefit of the husband's mindfulness that puts the relationship over the top, giving the couple a much better chance of a long, happy marriage.

That's not to say that the wife's contribution is inconsequential. Our studies show that the wife's sense of humor, interest, and affection can have a big impact on the husband's ability to remain calm during conflict - a factor that ultimately predicts stability in a marriage. In this regard, it's the wife's positive expression that makes a bigger difference than the husband's. But what allows a wife access to these attributes when she's engaged in a conflict? Our research reveals that it's the practice she gets constantly turning toward her husband in everyday interaction. "</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So it seems that Dr John M Gottman studies of couples also supports your statement.

And also from the same book from Dr Gottman, here's another interesting quote from page 4:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"At the University of Washington, my research colleagues and I recently discovered how profoundly this bidding process (the process of emotionally communicating 'I want to feel connected to you') affects relationships. We learned, for example, that husbands headed for divorce disregard their wives bids for connection 82 percent of the time, while husbands in stable relationships disregard their wive's bids just 19 percent of the time. Wives headed for divorce act preoccupied with other activities when their husbands bid for their attention 50 percent of the time, while happily married wives act preoccupied in response to their husband's bids just 14 percent of the time"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">