Not sure if I should post here, but I've known for two years that my H of 26 years is involved in a VERY intense emotional relationship with a woman. Two days ago I accidentally got hold of their email messages to one another, and though the relationship is not physical, it is more emotionally intense then I'd imagined. I also discovered that she encourages his negative feelings toward me, and has gone so far as to discourage him from seeing a marriage counsellor--she tells him he should feel free to go to her instead. She is his dearest friend, there's nothing wrong with their friendship, and she's the one he can talk to about everything in his life.

So I got access to his cell phone bill, and I know that they're continuously in contact--I've seen conversations that lasted170 minutes, 180 minutes, 360 minutes.

I am furious, I feel betrayed, depressed, helpless. I feel like I have an invisible enemy I can't fight. I don't know what to do. Getting access to his email was painful, but also helpful in that it gave me a much better idea of what's happening to us, but the access was really accidental--I don't think that it'll happen again. Knowing how often and how long he talks to her is also something, but it leaves me more confused than anything else.

When I try to talk to him about how much this is hurting me, he tells me I am hurting myself--he hasn't done anything. He is unwilling to accept any responsibility whatsoever for our marriage or for his actions. The very mention of this woman's name in anything but the most glowingly positive context makes him furious. I can't tell him how much I know about his thing with her because he's said that if he finds me snooping he'll leave me. When I ask him about it, he lies. I think the lies are the worst part, coming from a man I'd trusted for so long.

I almost wish that they'd have sex, because he might then find it more difficult to lie to himself about what he's doing with her. Personally, I'd rather have him sleep with her than have this constant, intense, spiritual contact--it's the worst kind of betrayal.

We have kids who don't deserve to be dragged through a custody fight, and I love him. He's really not too willing to go to a marriage counsellor. I've suggested speaking to a minister, but he gets insulted. What should I do????

OK, this is coming from a FWS who was in an EA, but when your husband is more concerned about his "friend's" feelings than those of his wife, then I'd say there is a definite problem.

Have you read up on Plan A/Plan B? If so, have you done Plan A? for how long? If not, then perhaps it's time to start. If you have done a Plan A w/o any LB's, then it's time to consider a Plan B, which is asking him to leave and not come back unless he is willing to 1) give up his "friend" (which means a total stop to all communications with her) 2) go to joint and perhaps individual counseling and 3) use the time he used to spend on his "friend" towards you. The only need for you to communicate w/ your husband while in Plan B is for child issues only.

There are others here who are more capable of dishing out advice than I am, as I mostly lurk and try to absorb the wisdom of others, but this is my gut first instinct of what I think should be done. Good Luck!

edited to add: how much more of this are you willing to put up with? He made vows with you, not w/ her. You should come first!

<small>[ July 10, 2003, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: JobieMom ]</small>

An emotional relationship is still an AFFAIR! All those hours he spent emailing and talking to her on his cell were hours he was not with you and you children. Please read Harley's book, "Surviving an Affair". It helped me so much.
You have a serious problem and it can not be fixed unless he completely gives her up. 100% no contact. That is the only thing that keeps me going 5 weeks after D-Day. H broke it off the next day and believe me I am still checking up on him. my WH had a 7 year "it was only sex" affair with one woman. The fact that he says he was NOT emotionally attached to her really hurts. what kind of man is THAT? How heartless is he? He hurt both of us.
Keep reading the posts. There is very good information here. I am still a "newby".
Good luck. HB26

My problem is that until he realizes that his actions have played a part in our marital problems, I can't implement anything. He's convinced himself that he's utterly right. My misery is entirely my fault, not his at all. I'd guess that not being an idiot he knows that the relationship with his friend is dangerous, which explains his secrecy, his threats, and his fury when faced by it.
Again, I just don't know what to do. How can we go to the counsellor when he refuses to admit to anything at all? How can I get him to sit down and face what I've discovered when he says he'll leave me if I snoop, and when he won't admit that ANYTHING he does in this respect is off?
This is just terrible.

Going to go off MB guidelines, take this for what you will. You asked what to do...I can only tell you what I would do:

I'd break back into his email account print up two copies of every email I could find, forward them to my own mailbox...get copies of all cell phone bills and highlight each and every call (keeping copies for myself)...then give him a copy of everything I have...and have his suitcase out on the bed for him to pack! His threat is WRONG! His emotional affair is WRONG!

As long as you play by his rules...you're going to continue feeling powerless and abused and there is no reason for him to change his behavior.

What will happen is anyone's guess...but the stats are in your favor. Few marriages end because of an affair. Those that do are usually because the BS walks...not the WS.

I am one of the worst ones to give MB advice with an on-going affair...as I don't believe most of us have the courage or the strength to deal with a WS who isn't willing to end the affair. If you have the strength and courage...may God grant you the wisdom to follow your heart.

Good Luck!

Everyone's right. I know that I have to do something drastic to get him to take responsibility, but I just don't have the guts. I have the two kids to care for, but I'm also the housewife with no family of my own to run to; to top it all off, I was diagnosed with breast cancer some years ago. Though it hasn't come back, it has made a coward of me. It also put so much strain on the marriage that a part of me is saying of course he needs to get away from me; hell, I would get away from me if I could.
I suppose my therapist is the person to talk to about all this. It's comforting to be able to write this. H's got me at a point where I'm starting to believe that I'm insane to be bothered by cancer and marital difficulties.
Thanks

He is having an Emotional Affair The MB program for an emotional or physical affair is the same. Click on the link in my signature line for more info. Pay particular attention to the Plan A/Plan B links.

You cannot change him, you can only change you. It is true your marriage cannot recover on your efforts alone, but you can fix your half of things and take away his excuses.

riekena,

This affair, and it IS an affair (you aren't crazy) should be handled like any other affair. And that means you begin with an excellent Plan A. Read about it here and then ask some questions. I'm also going to give you these guidlines from cerri....read this AFTER reading about Plan A, then come back and ask questions and get support.

Plan A is not (repeat NOT) about making the WS happy, or feeling good.

Plan A is NOT, contrary to popular (and very incorrect opinion), about "making yourself a better person," or "working on yourself."

Plan A is ALL ABOUT the straying spouse. In Willard Harely's ever brilliant words, Plan A is a stategy to end the affair and to entice the straying spouse to reconsider the marriage.

So, it has several elements that should be done at the same time.

First is to eliminate LBers and to meet needs as best you can... recognizing that the unfaithful mate may not allow the betrayed partner to meet needs.

Second is to CONFRONT the unfaithful partner with what you know. Doing so (of course) in a way that is respectful and about you... how you feel, how you are affected by the affair.

Third is to expose the affair to the scrutiny of the world. The lover's spouse or s/o, coworkers, family, friends, church family, children, etc.

ALL OF THAT is Plan A. And it should be done as much as possible simultaneously. (If you don't believe me call the radio show Mondays and Thursdays at 1pm Central Time and ask Dr. Harley for yourself.)

Plan A must have a deadline. It's called Plan "A" because there is a second step... aptly named Plan "B." Willard Harley suggests a max of 6 months for men and 3 months for women before going to the next step. If Plan A hasn't worked in that time, it's not going to.

(I challenge you to find anyone who has done Plan A longer than that and been successful. I define successful as the A ending, n/c promised and verified, and the couple working a good recovery plan which includes meeting needs, eliminating LBers, getting in 15 hours a week of UAT, and most importantly following POJA.)

Just reread plan A. Must I confront him with what I know about his EA immediately? Not that I want to defend my WS's EA, but last five years were hard for us--I got diagnosed with the cancer while nursing our second child and hoping for a third, and I didn't deal well with the diagnosis. Meanwhile he worked hard at his job, then got fired. While he was getting fired, I was overwhelmed by my terror and anger about the cancer, and since I was also taking care of our small children, HIS needs were unmet, as were mine. In the middle of all this he met the woman and they started this incredibly intense relationship.

So, can I start with a "limited" plan A??? Meet his needs and prepare our marriage for a true plan A? Also, do I have to let the families, and his friend's family know about all this???She has kids and a husband, and I don't want the misery of that family on my conscience.

Hi, I'm Bellevue and I've lived through what you're experiencing. Yes, you should be posting here. In our case, there were enormous cell phone bills (average of 2 hours a day calls and that ws calculated dividing 30 days into the hours on his bill) - There were also long, hand-written letters with details of our personal conversations and family activities. Written whenever they were apart.)

In our case, there was no sex; "only" an emotional attachment and devotion to the OW that has been hurtful beyond belief. "Only" a loyalty more intense than what he has toward me.

Jobie Mom's comments are worth re-reading. Also HB 26, justawife, john and starfish.

Having cancer scared you. Of course it did. It reminds you how fragile life is. And pragmatically, you realize financial support, health insurance, etc. need to be taken into account when making your life altering decisions.

Having kids scares you from divorcing. It does me too. I experienced the nuclear winter of divorce when growing up. It has long range, far reaching effects.

Follow the links the others have given you, and most important, follow the MB Plans. And make friends here. You will receive support.

And, please, counsel by phone with the Harleys. You really are at the beginning of your fight to save and recover your marriage. Do it right. Pay for the counseling, even if you have to do it alone, even if hubby refuses to participate.

[Honest, I don't get any kickbacks for referrals! I just wish I had done the phone counseling with them instead of going the route I did.]

<small>[ July 11, 2003, 10:15 AM: Message edited by: Bellevue ]</small>

reikena,

Of course you can work up to this slowly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You don't have to jump into anything. Stopping LBs and filling ENs will help bring some intimacy back into your relationship while you are preparing emotionally to tackle the harder jobs....but remember that when you do this, your H is getting the best of all worlds and can eassily become a "cake eater"....so don't go on too long. Do take your time and learn all you can. None of us here are professionals, and I think some good counseling/coaching would be a great idea and give you some much needed support.

About the exposure.....I know you feel as though you are protecting the family of this woman...but really you are not. How can this husband rebuild his marriage without the knowledge that you have? This relationship is on the brink of tearing BOTH families apart if it escalates and turns into a PA. It is a true threat to the lives of all of the innocent children involved, yours and hers. Do not believe that you are saving anyone pain by facilitating this situation....because you aren't. But until you are ready or you feel the need to do this....it will always be your choice....I'm just giving you another perspective.

About confrontation.....your H is threatening to leaving if you snoop, because he needs "secrecy" to accomplish his affair. It is an unfair threat, and it is also untrue. It is his way of manipulating you. Don't buy it. Affairs thrive on secrecy.....so if you want it to end....and when you are ready to rebuild your marriage....it will be essential to expose and confront. Otherwise, your husband will be able to hide behind the "just friends" screen forever....why should he stop?

Take your time, and think about these things. Your plate is very very full and you have health issues that need attending to. You are in my thoughts and prayers.

There is a book out right now called "Not Just Friends"....author Glasser. It might be a good read for you.

(((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))

Good advice, Starfish. Everything you said is correct.

Take your time. Take a week to absorb MB, to understand Plan A and Plan B, and then make your own plan. Set a timetable, set goals, make a list, whatever works best for you.

Then make copies of all the phone bills, and everything you have, keeping one set in a safe deposit box, and present hubby with the other (I like the yellow hi-liting touch, justawifey!)

Make sure the kids are elsewhere and that you aren't interrupted. Keep calm, be matter of fact, and have an attorney on retainer. (Okay, maybe the attorney is premature. But my H didn't take me seriously until I got an attorney.)

Sorry for your pain riekena. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

I can't disagree with what any of the others have posted. Their notes are very helpful.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Then make copies of all the phone bills, and everything you have, keeping one set in a safe deposit box, and present hubby with the other (I like the yellow hi-liting touch, justawifey!)
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Make that two copies, and send one to her husband, along with the emotional infidelity link in my previous post, and an explanatory note mentioning the MB web site and the book "Surviving an Affair".

The others have given you excellent advice.
I just have some questions. You are married 26 years. Children and ages? Do You work? Have family or very good friends that will be able to give you emotional or financial support? How long ago was your cancer?
My feeling is that where you are in life plays a big part in your reaction to an affair.
My sons are grown, I have a very good job and wonderful family and friends who support me. I know this probably sounds strange but for me knowing that I can leave my marriage and survive makes it easier for me to stay in it. BTW all of our family and my friends know about his A. Of course he doesn't want his friends to know. It is his shame not mine. It makes him realize how many people he has hurt and the consquences of his actions (past, present and future).
HB26

To answer your question, I am at a nasty place right now. My family is wealthy and has a good deal of influence, but they live abroad and I don't have much contact with them. My mother, who knows nothing about all this because it would kill her, does have the financial resources to take care of us, but we've never gotten along. I have few friends to go to. I don't work; I am educated but always had odd jobs, never a real career, and after the cancer I wanted to stay at home and take care of the children; I wanted them to remember me if I died when they were still young. I was diagnosed with cancer four years ago, and they said that they caught it early and the odds of my making it were 80% or so.

My husband holds all the cards, which makes it easy for him to deny responsibility for this marriage. I also don't want to lose my children, and he has said that if leaves he's taking them, and I know that his family will do all it can to keep the kids with him. He's always been very close to the kids, an excellent dad, and they love him. They don't deserve to be caught up in a custody fight.

In short, I feel helpless and hopeless. I don't want to lose everything I love, but I'm afraid that is just what will happen. I don't know if the plans will work for us. I don't know if anything will work for us. I'm Catholic, I know that despair is an awful sin, but that's where I am right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by just a wifey 2002:
<strong>Going to go off MB guidelines, take this for what you will. You asked what to do...I can only tell you what I would do:

I'd break back into his email account print up two copies of every email I could find, forward them to my own mailbox...get copies of all cell phone bills and highlight each and every call (keeping copies for myself)...then give him a copy of everything I have...and have his suitcase out on the bed for him to pack! His threat is WRONG! His emotional affair is WRONG!

As long as you play by his rules...you're going to continue feeling powerless and abused and there is no reason for him to change his behavior.

What will happen is anyone's guess...but the stats are in your favor. Few marriages end because of an affair. Those that do are usually because the BS walks...not the WS.

I am one of the worst ones to give MB advice with an on-going affair...as I don't believe most of us have the courage or the strength to deal with a WS who isn't willing to end the affair. If you have the strength and courage...may God grant you the wisdom to follow your heart.

Good Luck!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Hi, I'm Alisse. This is the first time I'm dropping
in. I'm in a very bad shape and I need help.

It's been 4 years since I discovered my H's 6-month A. Although he showed great remorse and reaffirmed his commitment to me and our marriage and to the concerns of our children, I find my recovery so excruciatingly slow. I guess what really "freaks me out" are: 1) images of what H and OW did in bed (which they captured in film, would you believe?) that haunt me every single minute til this day and 2) the occasional contacts between them (which H says are unavoidable since his office has deals with her office), which he has not been honest with me about. (This has become one of the main causes of our roller-coaster rides.)

H said that their "porno shoot" was a terribly crazy thing that one who was terribly drunk could ever do. So when he sobered up, he was just beside himself with this sickening feeling inside of him. And for several days, he planned how he was going to yank the film out of OW's camera. He, eventually, succeeded without her knowledge. And took great pains in hiding said film from me.

Can't imagine why he got careless. Found the innocent-looking film in his satchel (at home) a year ago. (I've been doing a lot of snooping, too.) Had the film developed commercially. To this day, I cannot yet describe the horror I felt when the salesperson handed me a pack of negatives (only) and as I peered into the negatives.

H tries justifying his dishonesty about his occasional contacts with OW as attempts to cushion the impact of pain. We would usually end up with a loud discussion on "We made a deal!".

Despite these hurting and hurtful episodes, we do have tender and loving moments that give both of us aome hope for a renewed marriage. But these moments don't last long enough for me to really want to stay in this marriage.

I AM EMOTIONALLY EXHAUSTED! I suppose, so is H.

Help me, please.