<BR>My wife and I have been in counseling for about 3 months with some progress. One of my hangups has always been her "little infatuations" and her dismissing them as innocent or I need help. For many years it has been Barry Manilow-pictures of him everywhere,his music on all the time,videos of "Barry" as she calls him,checking Barry Web Page daily, and even staying in line all night for tickets!!(She's no teenybopper-she's 48)<P>Recently she started back to work full-time after many years. One day she took me to stop by her work-a retail store-to check something. I saw her go up to a man and exchange a quick intimate laugh and she touched his arm--a bolt of lightning went through me. Anyways I let it go and didn't say anything. Then about a week later we were talking and all of a sudden it was "Sam said this","Sam had a similar experience", and "Sam and I are going to work on this employee activity together" etc. etc. Yes, Sam was the man whose arm she touched. I now knew Sam was the latest "little infatuation".<P>Things had been coming together for us until this AM. As she was leaving for work I noticed she took 3 presents for the Silent Santa grab at work. Almost instantly I knew what was going on. I asked her why she had 3 if each employee had only one present to buy. She said someone asked her to pickup their gift for the grab. I asked who and she said Sam. I went nuts!!! She said I was overreacting, he's an old man (59),it's innocent, I need help etc.etc. I told her I thought it was inappropriate, that it gave the impression of some type of relationship, and mostly it hurt me. <P>Here's the ironic part. For many years her "little infatuations"(which she ALWAYS dismisses as innocent and no big deal)really bothered me but I could never pin down exactly why-beyond the obvious. Then one day it hit me like ton of bricks! My wife was married before but got divorced due to her husbands infidelity with co-workers. As a result of that,she has always been very sensitive to any appearance on my part of involvement with other women-even to the point of incorrectly accusing me of affairs.<P>To this day I have been 100% faithful. To be sensitive to her and to demonstrate my faithfulness to her I have gone out of my way for almost 20 years not even to mention other woman to my wife. Interestingly, I work mostly with women every day but have never strayed. I even think I have shut down a part of my personality just so she won't be threatened. <P>So, what hit me was the fact that I was making a huge effort to "protect" her, and she felt no such need to return the favor.<BR>When I mentioned this to her, she said, "If you haven't done anything what's to hide?" I said you don't get it-I have worked hard to avoid even the appearance of impropriety so you wouldn't feel threatened, but you do things ("little infatuations") without considering my feelings. I said I don't understand how you couldn't be sensitive to this based on your past experience.How could she not see this???<P>Fellow posters,am I overreacting to her buying the gift Sam should've bought himself. Am I wrong to feel cheated on (who really knows the extent of their involvement?) There's obviously some type of relationship that I think undermines our marriage. I am beyond hurt,angry,and frustrated-I feel like giving up.<P>Thank you for any comments or guidance <P>

JBARN,<BR> My W LIVES with a 60 year old man now!!! How was/is your W's realtionship with her Father? CLICK on my sunglasses and read my profile. I have to run BUT you and I NEED to talk. I think I can help because our situations are VERY VERY alike. down to the:<P>"I even think I have shut down a part of my personality just so she won't be threatened. " WE'LL TALK FRANK<P>P.S. READ my profile!!<P><BR>

PLEASE HELP,<P>Thanks for the reponse-it really helps. To answer your question about my wife's father, she gets along OK with him. His is retired now but really never mattered much in his marriage or to his family. My wife was brought up in a very strong Matriarchal family (my wife thinks her mother was a "saint") with a very benign Father.<P>P.S. I read your story-very sad, and with many similarities.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by JBarn (edited December 18, 1999).]

JBARN,<BR> My story IS sad. Mostly because I DIDN'T find this site in time!! You, on the other hand may have. You need to READ this site to find out WHAT YOU DID!! Believe it or not, this is the KEY to winning your W back. <P> Me, I was working AND starting a business at the same time. My W has said MANY times since she left that I made her feel that EVERYTHING was more important than her. <P> Search and learn. Learn WHAT these needs you don't/didn't fill are. This will save your marriage.<BR> IT'S NOT TOO LATE!! READ!! GOOD LUCK AND PRAYERS, FRANK

It's both spouses' job to protect the marriage and protect each other from hurt.<P>If her friendly contact, whether or not she deems it inappropriate, upsets you, then she should not do it. I think it's pretty simple.<P>Sounds a lot like she needs something.....Can't put my finger on it. What do you think?<P>You're not wrong here. You guys need to keep talking.<P>Lori

<BR>Dear Lori & Frank,<P>Thank you for your responses-at a time like this it means so much to me to hear from others!<P>After thinking about it off and on over the last 3 months I finally did it-I spent last night away from home. It was a HUGE step for me but after the "incident" yesterday AM I just couldn't bear to see my wife or be in the same house with her. In fact, I think I'm partly to blame because I've always been good old dependable,full of bark without bite, and predictable H. (A friend advised that sometimes when talk doesn't seem to work, action must be taken) <P>In the context of this forum I know my wife sees my objections to her behavior as disrespectful judgements. She even said to me yesterday, "why don't you trust me not to be doing anything wrong?" Fair enough and a valid point, but I'm sorry-some things are just plain wrong despite how either party perceives them. It is NOT appropriate for a spouse to have a "relationship" with a co-worker to the extent that they are doing personal errands for each other.(Is that an example of an "EA" that I read about in the Forum?)<P>Does that mean therefore that I question my wife's judgement-in this case yes. How do you reconcile one spouses perception of having their judgement disrespected with the other spouses perception that the judgement is wrong? <P>As always,any responses are much appreciated.<P>JBarn

JBarn,<P>I do not feel that you are over reacting to your wife's "office friendship" with this older man. She is not following MB's "Policy of Joint Agreement" which states that no one in the marriage should do something without the full enthusiasm of their partner. Obviously, you didn't even know that she had this type of "connection" with Sam and it doesn't sound like you would have approved of it even if you had known about it. Affairs begin with the type of friendship she is having with Sam. She wasn't honest with you from the start of the Silent Santa episode. She violated another of Dr. Harley's MB rules which is; the "Rule of Honesty." Read the MB concept site. You will get a clear understanding on why I feel so adamently about why you are NOT over-reacting to this situation.<P>I think that your wife needs to be honest with herself and to ask why she needs these extra curricular relationships in her life. Is she missing some emotional need at home in her marriage? If so, let correct it before any real infidelity damage is done.<P>You came to the right place. Like I said before, read Dr. Harley's web pages. They are full of valuable info. Please don't beat yourself up for being dependable and always doing the "right thing". Most of us would give our eye teeth for a marriage partner like that,...seeing that we are all here for a common reason.<BR>

Wafflestoo,<P>Interesting user name by the way-are you a Man or a Woman? My quess is Woman.<P>On of my dilemmas is that my Wife is the type who is either uncomfortable or distrustful with written things like Dr. Harley's WebPage/articles etc. She believes in instincts and common sense. She says all that other stuff just "messes you up".<P>I have downloaded almost every article because they really seem to make sense. I plan to read them later. In fact, one article called,"Infidelity: The Lessons Children Learn" has a quote that Wife made when confronted by husband over boyfriend she was having an affair with: "Josh is just a friend. Aren't I allowed to have friends. Why do you have to be so jealous? Don't you trust me?"<P>This quote is almost a VERBATIM transcript of what my wife said to me when I confronted her! My wife added the familiar "you're nuts" and "you need help". <P>By the way, there's that TRUST ME issue. Is this the same as a disrespectful judgement or am I misreading it, and it's really just a deception/denial technique?<P>Any comments? Thank You.<P>JBarn <P><BR>P.S. Is my wife having an "EA"

JBarn,<P>You say that your wife is into "common sense." Ha... my husband's common sense was the first thing that he lost when he became involved with the OW. I think that your W is rationalizing her actions to fit her needs. She's playing with fire. She might not be caught up in an EA yet, but I think that the EA has a way of sneaking up on a person that they find themselves involved before they can clearly think about it.<P>

It's possible. I hate to say it, but it's possible. <P>And if you took a poll of MOST of us here, a lot of our problems started that way. <P>...Just a friendship<BR>...He/She needs someone to talk to<BR>...Just wanted to help out<BR>...No big deal<BR>...He/She's just a kid.<BR>...He/She's so much older<P>I think it even blindsided some of our spouses. They didn't INTEND to cross the line, never saw it coming. But they did. And by then, all common sense went slam out the window.<P>I think you're smart to be cautious. And to address this issue. 'Cause EA's are the worst. They involve an emotional committment that should be shared within the marriage. And they usually go farther.<P>But I tell you what, we don't have too many betrayers here (yep, I remember one or two) who are going through withdrawal and being miserable just because they miss the sex. It's the emotional attachment that's giving them hell. And they're suffering too, as well as the spouses who were betrayed.<P>I'd say stay on this, it's important.<P>Good Luck.<P>Lori<P>

I think my EW affair started the same way. She was always talking about what her coworkers had to say about things in our life. She even started to defend 1 guy who got caught in an area he didn't belong. She feel for that old "they are out to get me" routine. She never did mention om's name to me at all. I don't even remebr how I discovered who it was.<P>But she has another "friend" that she quotes and talks about and even had him review our divorce papers. He even goes shopping with her and he is married(2nd) with 3 kids.<P>I would be very upset also. She must break off the relationship or your marriage will be in deeper trouble.<P>HAng in there and God Bless.<P>------------------<BR>"You can't always get what you want! But if you try real hard,you might just find, you get what you need!"<BR>Mick Jagger<BR>

<BR>My task this morning is to check on my legal status. Since I left the house even though she's having the "relationship/borderline EA, EA" I was told I better be careful about where I stand. What convinced me that this was good advice is the fact that I'm pretty sure my wife is convinced she did nothing wrong and I'm overreacting, and after reading Dr. Harley's articles on Infidelity he mentioned that unfaithful spouses usually get defensive about their actions and even figure "what the heck"-at least initially. <P>The real heartbreaker was talking to my two children (13 & 16) yesterday. I felt I owed them a call to touch base. Naturally they wanted to know where I was?,why I left?, when I'm coming home? etc. etc. I tried to assure them my actions are in no way connected to anything they did and not to worry about anything etc.<P>Should I say anything to the kids about why I left i.e. wife's relationship with other man? What is she probably saying to them-should I assume she's telling them "I'm nuts and need help" etc. etc.?<P>All of your comments have helped me so much-I'm anxiously reading any thoughts or comments you have. Thank you for your concern.<P>JBarn

Help! Help! Help!<P>Have been out of the house since Saturday. Wife called today VERY angry, "You walked out, you left the kids, how could you do this over Christmas etc.etc."<P>Then she started with spirited defense of her actions,she said I was overreacting,OM is just a friend from work etc. etc.<P>Listening to her made me feel like a child, that my buttons were being pushed, and that I was being dragged down. It was not pleasant-particularly after how surprisingly good I've felt since I left.<P>My Lawyer says I should communicate with her for kids sake etc. We're meeting at the house at 7:30AM tomorrow. Any thoughts or advice? What am I going to say; she's the one having "EA" and denies it-I'm nuts! <P>

JBarn:<P>I don't think leaving is the right thing to do here. How can you combat the "affair" if you're not around to deal with it? <P>I heard all the same things from my W during her affair. "He's just a friend," "We talk about work, you don't understand it because you're not in the same field."<P>Brother, I've heard it all. You're doing EXACTLY the things I did during this episode for me. And, let me tell you, it's the WRONG THING!<P>Go home, sit your wife down and with as much emotion and sincerety as you can muster, tell her how you feel about her. Tell her WHY this man bothers you. Tell her that you care too much about your marriage and your family to let this destroy you.<P>Then, ask her, point blank, even if he is just a friend, what's more important to her, the friendship or her marriage? If the marriage is more important to her, she'll give up the friendship. It's that simple.<P>You two should DEFINITELY see a marriage counselor. You have a chance to confront this thing NOW before it gets out of hand. Don't be a conflict avoider. Insist on counseling and if she won't go YOU go.<P>Whatever you do, leaving home is NOT the right thing to do. If she's going to insist on putting this friendship above your marriage, then SHE is the one who should go, NOT you.<P>I highly recommend that y'all call Steve Harley. I didn't use him, but I've read too much from people like K (who did use him) to believe that he's anything less than a Godsend.<P>Whatever you choose to do, GET PROFESSIONAL HELP. You'll be very glad you did.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

JB,<P>I think most of us heard the same type of thing from our spouses.... for me, it was that I didn't understand, he needed to talk, I wasn't listening, and at the very end, the one that stung the most,..."SHE was there..." (ouch). We all hear various excuses as our spouses attempt to justify to us (and to them) that they're involved in something innocent. Perhaps it even started out that way, but based on what I've learned thus far here, that isn't the case,... something was missing which opened his eyes to another.<P>You may have very well caught things in time, and I hope you thank your stars that you found this site as you did, - - for me, despite the outbursts I still get, they are easier, better, and my understanding of MY participation is clearer to me now. That's the toughest part of us as the injured party to accept, that we did something WRONG? Who,.... US???<P>Your wife is missing something emotionally, and only she can answer that. I do NOT think you are over-reacting one little bit! Not a bit!! You are being observant. My H expresses concerns over "these sites" as well, but he's come to realize how vital they are, and how much they do help. It sounds like your W if insecure, not feeling attractive, and your going over-board to protect her has put her in such a "safe" environment that she feels you're the comfortable little fuzzy bedroom slipper she can come home to every night,.... while she goes out dancing in those sequin 6" pumps with her co-workers.<P>Only your wife can supply the truth of what she needs, what's missing and if she's having an EA or not,... for now, go on the premise she isn't, (she's just starved for external attention) and work with her gently (and acknowledge your involvement) and you two can, if you both want it, fix it.<P>

Here's the latest: <P>Today was the "big meet"-first serious discussion since I left on Saturday. It didn't happen due to kid's illness,but spoke on phone a total of over 4 hours! We went A-Z,everything on the table,nothing off limits.<P>My approach was totally MB/Dr. Harley approach of her "EA" was my fault due to unmet emotional needs. Worked VERY well. I told my Wife I wanted an opportunity to meet those needs because that's what W was looking for. I am determined to use the "every room in the house" theory which I believe to be BRILLIANT in in its simplicity. Particularly for H's as we need a simple track to run on when dealing with emotional issues. <P>She was receptive to my interest and accepted my offer to try. She said all she wants is best friend/soulmate and would be happy if it is me. She did continue to defend/justify OM and insists I overreacted to something innocent but I let it go. I took Dr. Harley's advice that if I objected and fought her on it I would come across as unattractive and a turnoff. I did explain briefly why I left and how much it hurt. End of my side.<P>I said our only hope is to go back to square one and rebuild. Even to attempt to go forward from the gains of the last six months would be a waste of time-she agreed. I am determined that this marriage won't go down without a fight!<P>My wife is about to get a tour of "my house" and even help build some more rooms that she won't believe. <P>Thanks and Love to you all,<P>God Bless and Happy Holidays! <P><BR>JBarn<P><BR>P.S. I went looking for the post that was made recently by the User who said,paraphrased,"When are we H's going to learn what our W's really want and need, and how to provide it. It's so simple-just not easy!" It's profoundness and pleading hit me like a thunderbolt.<P>I couldn't find it,any help?<P>Found it @SamH post in "It's officially an affair..." thread. Great comment SamH-I'm taking your advice!<p>[This message has been edited by JBarn (edited December 22, 1999).]