I already posted this to Nicole's thread....but it was important to me on so very many levels that I have decided to re-post it on my own thread....please keep an open mind, and if you, the reader has not read Patient Love's post "What we are up against", please read it now as this will seem bizarre and you will think me a little over the edge perhaps....lol<P>hmmmm.......deep breath.......<P>The Witches' Law, handed down through the generations, is, "Do what ye will an (meaning 'provided that')ye harm none". To this is added the Statement of Principle, "Perfect Love and Perfect Trust".<P>The Law has also been expressed in the words "Love and do harm to none". The use of personal energy does not appear to be pendant upon any particular religious belief. Magic is not peculier to witches. It has been used by pratitioners of all religions, from the most ancient to the most modern. Sometimes the magical formulae are called prayers or hymns. Sometimes they are called spells and charms. They are found in Hinduism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam and all other major religions. In most of these the magic formulae involve the use of the names of gods or spirits. These are regarded as ways of calling up and focusing the required energy. A strong belief in anything is productive of psychic energy. What we believe has reality for us; we are what we believe we are.<P>The witch's craft is not outside nature, not supernatural.<BR>Nevertheless, it remains mysterious. We can no more explain it than we can explain why some people are "gifted" in one direction and<BR>others in another. And the 'magical' faculty, like all other human faculties, can be used for good or bad ends.<P>The difference between a 'true, natural' witch's use of these powers and the use made by some others is simply that the 'true, natural' witch works within the framework of a religion and an ethical discipline that prevents those powers being used irresponsibly or to harm.<P>Acts of magic which run counter to the credo of 'Love, and harm none' are wrong - they are indeed evil. Other acts, stemming from or for Love, are not. This was recognized before AD500 by the Christian Church. Indeed, Constantine's law against witches was simply that witches who did evil things should be punished: others should not be harmed.<P>Unfortunately, many catchpenny books about witchcraft, many books of spells, emphasize the sensational side of witchcraft and spend a great deal of time in explaining how to curse someone. Consequently, many think of witches as power-hungry and self-serving, and SOME of these people, who fancy the thought of possessing magical powers, decide they would like to be witches and even initiate themselves. They should be warned. There is a natural law that whatever magic one does returns upon the doer threefold. <P>Most 'true, natural' witches revere the story of Jesus Christ and his gospel of love and find his wisdom is awe-inspiring.<P>The organizations which have grown up around Christ's teachings and which have so often denied them, or elaborated them in a fashion quite alien to his message, are another matter. It was not Christ but the church that first stated that witches did not exist and<BR>that to believe in them was heresy, and then that witches did exist and that not to believe in them was heresy. It was not Christ but the Church that decided that "Thou shalt not Kill" meant 'thou shall not Kill anyone but heretics, murderers, theives, witches,<BR>Mohammedans, heathens, and anyone else the church decides'. It was not Christ but the Church that invented the inquisition and killed millions of Jews, gypsies and witches in Europe over a period of four centuries. <P>Witches are not opposed to anyone practising whatever religion they find meaningful to them. They do not proselytize or attempt to<BR>convert people. Most believe that people, moving through many lives, must pass through many stages of understanding and must work out their own destinies. Help or advice or teaching along the way will be given when asked for; it will not be imposed upon the<BR>unwilling.<P><BR>I guess, if forced to 'label' myself, I would have to call myself a Christian Wiccan....the Holy Trinity being my spiritual focus instead<BR>of the usual goddess figure.....<P>I, for instance believe in natural magic, and believe that I am a natural witch....for example, the time I posted, asking everyone to stop and focus all their positive, good, loving energy at Bill because Robin was going over....that is the type of 'magic' I, as a wiccan use....and he had a really nice night because so many of us reached out ...in love and support of him...it may not have affected the outcome of his evening...but then again....personal energy focus can be powerful....you never know....<P>So, this person on the plane was a self-confessed witch......a loony with an attitude problem......she could have said she was a druid, an athiest, a mormon, anything at all....and she still would have been a loony...the person said these things...not 'the witch'..... some of us feel closer to God worshiping him this way...I find it immensly personal and satisfying...I wake up and realize what a gift each day is.....but central to my core belief is that everything has a soul....all of nature...everything in God's creation....<P>some of 'us' are not really that scary, and we do not.... I repeat....DO NOT do the work of satan, lucifer, evil, whatever ......<P>I have ranted long enough.....what a stressful time to decide to come out of the closet.............<P>wishing one and all peace on earth and goodwill towards all men......that's what it's all really about...<P>Dylan.<P>p.s., I had to explain this, as I could no longer let Medic continue to freak out.....it's not white magic, Medic, it's responsible magic.....LOL<P>

Hi Soulloss...<P><BR>hmmm... interesting.<P>I have always read any articles on Wicca beliefs, as I find them very interesting. I always did think that they (Wiccans) were out for good, and believed in natural things. I always thought it was the crackpots who 'cast evil spells' and did the bad 'black magic' things.<P>I admire your courage in 'coming out' as you have - I think there would be many out there who would immediately label a Wiccan as a looney. (not those of us here at MB)<P>I think we here at MB have all learnt that most powerful lesson of accepting people for who they are, and what they give to others.<P>For me personally, you have only ever given friendship, words of encouragement and support. I would hope that everyone here feels this way, and I have a feeling that they all will. May not agree with all the beliefs, the ways, the methods etc etc, but believe in YOU. And you wouldn't harm any of us here.<P>As far as the discussion on Satan, and how he is getting at us through our marriages - I have no real thoughts about that at the moment. I need to think about it. I'm not knowledgeable enough, and am questioning my faith too much at the moment, to be able to contribute effectively to any discussion on the topic. I do believe in God, and I do believe in Satan, I know who is good and who is bad, and that's as far as I know at present.<P>I guess I really am a little lost soul at the moment.<P>Good on you for having beliefs, and I especially liked the way you said you were a Christian Wicca. The best of both worlds.<P>Take care of you, and big hugs for you<P>Jo

thanks Jo,<P>a few comments from my peanut gallery on this wonderful, sun-shine filled snowy sunday...<P>I have never met nor heard of a true witch who would EVER do harm......as for the 'looney' label, well, my own family uses it, it's an issue with H's ex-W, I have kept quiet for a long time not wanting it to be a custody issue regarding their 8 yr. old son,...<P>Thank you so much for your statement about receiving friendship, encouragement and support from me...that is my aim in life...not just here on this board...it is a lifetime goal to provide these things daily to every person I meet....that is my personal doctrine.......I have seen a person's mood change for the rest of their day because I have been nice to them in the midst of a bad day...now, that is magic.....and if they spread that good mood to someone else, then its spectacular magic !!<P>the most magical thing I do on this board is to hope, pray, and wish the best, and least painful process through this for one and all on this board...I would not and could not harm anyone, anywhere...I mean, HEY !!! come on, I have the OW out there as the perfect target......and all I can do is hope she gets on with her life and never harms another family as she has done...I can protect my family......I have performed a 'banishing'....and all that means is that I pray, meditate and focus my energy on barring any of hers from entering 'our space'....my good, positive energy as a buffer against her destructive, unbalanced and negative energy.......geeeez, Nicole is right...it is all about a battle....<P>As for your statement about Satan, well, I see far too much evil in the world on a daily basis that not believing is not really an option anymore....so much negative and harmful energy spreading.....<P>I believe in God, Mary and Jesus....I was baptised into the Catholic church as an infant...but I think that god is really tired of us and our repeated stupidities as a race....it has now been left up to us and our free will...and look what we are still doing to this day with our chance.....<P>by the way, in my religion, what goes on between all of us on these boards.....counts in your Karma.....big time.....the way we all share and help, and support.....nothing but good can come....even flaming,because deep down you care....this is a really good place....it feels safe...I hope everyone realizes this.....I think by helping each other, we may all be a little closer to whatever each of our personal 'heavens' is...<P>Dylan......Have a sacred sunday.....

There are some who can't accept anyone not believing just as they believe. I could not believe that someone would really post that God would not hear their prayers if they didn't pray in a certain way. This was in a different thread but someone did really say that. I am very strong in my faith. But I also think that God may not come to us all in the same way. I know how he has come to me. We really know if we are doing good or bad. God is really with all of us if we want to listen to him.<P>Del

I don't know how to express exactly whta I think about this <B>DISEASE</B> called infidelity. All I know is it has turned the most loving careing person in the world into an <B>EVIL</B> beyond compare.<P>I have <B>NEVER</B> seen an addiction this powerful.I have seen heroin addicts that kick easier than this.<P>In a way I wish I didn't love my wife so much. I can see how peole kick thier F-d up spouce to the curb with only the clothes on thier backs.<P>However I have to at least try to wait until my<B> EVIL, NARCESISTIC</B> Robin goes away.<BR>And the woman I love returns.<P>God is <B>SCREAMING</B> at her to wake up.<BR>Her <B>EVIL</B> half is controling her. She has actually told me she feels horrible for what she has done to me.<B>THEN JUST ****ING STOP</B>. Her <B>EVIL</B> half just laughs at me, and says TOO BAD ISN"T IT!!!<P>I know God will win in the end. I also know He will take care of me.<P>I now know first hand how Satan hardens someones heart to all that is good around them. He loves to see the <B>DESTRUCTION</B> that is left in the wake of adultry. He thrives on it.<P>Enough of my views on this, it just plain <B>SUCKS!!!</B><P>Remember:God is bigger than the Boogieman...<BR>He's bigger than Godzilla or the monsters on TV...<BR>God is bigger than the Boogieman...<BR>And He's watching out for you and me....<BR>(my D's favorite song from veggie tales)<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR>BB<BR>

OK,<P>So what you guys are saying is that "Tabitha the teen age witch" on Friday nights with the fake kitty is not real?<P>This topic was facinating because I was seriously considering looking into spells, candle magic and the such. Then I found the Plan Medic.<P>This goes back aways when I asked on a thread what extent would you go to get back together with your S.<P>For real this stuff does make my head feel funny and gives me goose bumps. I do believe that it exists. I'm not so sure that I want to go there.<P>Me and my buddy "played" with a Ouija board and the damned thing moved and scared the living poop out of us. <P>I'd rather have Val come back because she loves me as opposed to being under a spell or trance. JMHO.<P>Tim

soulloss,<P>Indeed this is your "coming out" and I, for one, think you are very brave.<P>I am interested in many, many things and have done a bit of research into the supernatural, as well. Personally, I always come back to my Christian roots, because I just can't seem to shake this innate feeling that it is the truth. However, I go into the New Age bookstore and buy books on all sorts of stuff, including dream work, self-help and Buddism, among others, and my house is filled with candles, oils, stars and moons and pyramids, and I even have a fountain in my bedroom (and one in my office too)! So, if this all makes me a loon - let loons rule the world! <P>Thank you soulloss, for reminding us that all kinds of people populate the world, and in a smaller sense, this forum. <P>~Sheryl <P>------------------<BR>Life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans.<P>~John Lennon

well, it's 1:43 a.m. here on Canada's east coast, what better time to respond to the above wonderful posts....<P>Delphi,<BR>Thank you...I believe that God does NOT come to us all in the same way..and that, to me, is fine and dandy....as long as the journey is a path to god, as long as your personal path brings you spiritual peace, a sense of right and wrong, and contentment but most importantly, your path to god should give you hope and FAITH.<P><BR>now, you, YO' MEDIC........<P>you are a nutbar !!!! of course that kitty is real...!!! seriously, is that robotic thing not the MOST demonic thing you have ever seen on t.v.??? does it not scare the pants off of you ???<P>well put them back on.......lol<P>I think, in your case, the plan Medic is the way to go...the powers that be would not know what to do in the case of your intervening in things magical....and anyhoo...no spells, no candles, no 'craft' can make someone love you......they can, of course, be used to help you with your focus..on changing you...on becoming the person you know the other would love....<P>Val has to love Tim...not the magic.....but you know that...look at the strides you have been making..<P>as to your thread about how far you would go for your spouse....well....a loaded .22 was a fantasy...JUST A QUICK, BAD, VERY MORALLY BAD INDULGENT FANTASY !!!!! LOL...then i remembered about karma...and well...that plan went out the window...darn!<P>You know what? this stuff makes my head feel funny and gives me the hugest goosebumps too....thats why I knew i was on to something for me on a personal level...<P>and I would rather Val comes back becasue she loves you too....<P>take care of you..<P>Ahh, new beginning....<P>Brave??? I don't know....<P>one of my emotional needs is openess and honesty..i have to start being honest about all aspects of me...with myself, with my life...with all of you here. If I am to expect honestly from my H, i too, then must 'walk the talk' as they say.<BR>I also have the need for admiration - but for who and what I am...who and what I TRULY am, not for pre-conceived notions or husbandly fantasies of who or what I MAY be....how can my H possibly admire anything about me if I am not being who and what I truly am?<P>As you can see, I keep coming back to christianity as well....I grew up believing in Jesus and all he stood for....but, now, its the ritual aspect, the 'naturalness' of worship within the wiccan framework that whispers to me...<P>i can praise God, I pray...I worship.....<P>i just do it differently....<P>I have an altar...ritual inscense, candles, I chant....<P>oh my gosh...it sounds exactly like a catholic mass !!!!!!!!!!!!<P>that of course, being becasue they 'borrowed' elements for the mass from the pagans...it was the only way to lure them to the churches....the churches priests had to incorporate pagan rituals so the pagans would come and feel comfortable with familiar rituals...even if the names had been changed, the comfort of familiarity kept them coming back...<P>now, girl, where did you get a fountain !? I WANT ONE !!!!!! me too....me too....<P>no need to thank me for anything...anything to be here for someone who would quote John Lennon....lol<P>hope everyone has a good night's sleep....<P>Dylan - she of the long-windedness.<P>--------------<BR>You may say that I'm a dreamer...well, I'm not the only one....I hope someday you'll join us, and the world will live as one...John Lennon<BR>

Dylan<P>Very cool that you told us. Took a deep breath b/f you posted that other post, didn't you? At a time like this, that must have been a little hard. Like Sheryl said, brave and honest, and I like that.<P>Your explanation is "right in there" with things that I've read and learned over the years. And I don't find that any of it conflicts with my beliefs in God one iota.<P>He gave us many different kinds of people, he gave us ALL many powers that most of us don't use. All can and should be used as instruments of His will here on earth. You're just another gift from Him. Like me and all the others on this board.<P>Glad you "came out" here. Hey, we're all friends. Now we know another way in which you are special!<P>Lori

Lori, thank you so very much...what a nice way to say all that !!!<P>as for taking a deep breath b/f the other post......lol.....nope, that's why it came across so very indignantly and angrily...i did not center my self or focus...that was pure emotion....<P>I agree, all of us are special, and all of us have the opportunity to contribute something to this world and to each other....<P>p.s., I still need some pinecone ideas....lol<BR>and I think that you are something special too....I have seen you respond to everyone here even when in the depths of your own pain...you were one of the first to respond to my first posts....thank you so very much...people like you make it easier for some of us to find that inner strength and carry on....<P>Dylan

soulloss,<P>The fountains? My parent bought the one in my bedroom and it is a pedistal fountain that can be used indoor or out. It was bought at a garden shop at the beach... about $150.00. The one in the office was from Target and was about $50.00. It sits on a table top. <P>I love things that make me remember the beauty of nature. Water is so calming and beautiful.<P>I totally agree about your alter, I call my area "the shrine" and I have incense and candles, plants and music - Christian and chanting and Celtic... ahhhhhhh....<P>Did you ALWAYS quote John Lennon? I don't remember that! But yes, great minds think alike...<P>~Sheryl

is target only in the states?<P>I NEED a fountain.......you're so lucky!!!envy, envy, envy,......<P>thank you by the way, your words and your 'shrine' make me smile and feel better....<P>I have ALWAYS quoted John Lennon....but no, not here...usually to bored people who tell me to get over it...he's dead......aaaccckkkk.....they know nothing....he's in Demoine with Elvis, Jim Morrison and Jerry Garcia.....<P>Dylan

...Ricky Nelson, Jim Croce... and it's called a 'Garden Party' soulloss - <P>Yes, I believe Target is only in the States... <P>maybe you could BUILD one??? How can you get your hands on a pump? Maybe a swimming pool supply place? I've seen them built out of barrels, buckets... or one big bowl with rocks surrounding the pump with water just bubbling up through the stones... <P>Did I tell you about my other passion? Wind chimes... <P>Boy, you and I could have looooong talks by the fire...

OH MY GOD SHERYL.......<P>you quote john lennon......sigh...<P>AND YOU KNOW WHO JIM CROCE IS ??!?!?!???!?!?1<P>AND YOUR SHRINE.......<BR>GIRL, MOVE ON IN!!!!!!!<P>Jim makes me weak in the knees.....actually....you should sit down and listen to lover's cross...these dreams....oh, heck...listen to the whole albums !!!!!<P>I have jim cd's......but its not the same as the scratchy vinyl....sigh....<P>as for the fountain...remember I now live with a roomate who is willing to do ANYTHING to make up for the betrayal......hmmmm.....a fountain in my bedroom........I think I know what I want for x-mas...lol.<P>do not get me started on wind chimes.....<P>I have not e-mailed you yet, but I have not forgotten....<P>have a great day!!<P>Dylan

You too, sweetie!<P>Hey, so you don't have to dig through the archives...<P>My email is nbeginning@yahoo.com<P>Hugs, Sheryl<P>p.s. - cliche' but I still love Time in a Bottle... ah, and I miss vinyl too!! Alas, my receiver is trashed, so I can't use my turntable... and I still have Croce on vinyl... I'll save it!!!!!!<P>------------------<BR>Life is what happens to you while you are busy making other plans.<P>~John Lennon

Sheryl, <BR>I had to go find a jim croce website.....<P>whew...now I've had my fix....his wife and son put up a beautiful site<P>thanks for the e-mail addy....<P>dylan<P>------------------<BR>so maybe you wanted a martyr....just a regular gal would'nt do..but baby, I can't hang upon no lover's cross for you...Jim Croce