I'm new to this website and I was posting in another section (EN's) when someone suggested I post to Cerri in the JFO section. To make a long story kind of short for now, my husband and I are separated (Look at "We have an intruder" in the EN section to pick up some of my story). I'm looking for some practical advice on where to start. As I said, we're already separated. We separated mainly to give us each time to cool off so that we could start working together. The problem is, we just don't know where to start. My husband will cooperate with me in trying new techniques, but as far as reading himself or whatever, no way. Any suggestions? By the way, in case you didn't get to read about our intruder, no my husband isn't having an affair. He has a best friend that seems to really interfere in our relationship. My reason for asking my husband to leave was that he has seriously neglected me and our daughter off and on for the last few years. If I had to pinpoint one reason, it would be neglect. Hope you can help!

Jen

<small>[ July 21, 2003, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: jenateare ]</small>

jen,

Edit your title to include cerri's name....otherwise she is too busy and won't see it. You can do that by going to the original post and clicking the icon that looks like a pen and paper. Good Luck.

Here's a link to your original thread:

Intuder

Thanks Starfish! Big help! How'd you do that link thing?

Jen

It's a secret <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> LOL You use the box that says url at the bottom.....takes a bit of practice.

Oh yeah! There's all kinds of neat little things down there, huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Hey!! Guess which one of us absentee posters did some real work today??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> LOL

Alrighty, just so you know I saw this and I'll read and catch up and then I'll be back, but I gotta check some other things first.

Keep bumping if I seem to get lost.

C

Hi Cerri, thanks for taking time to notice me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Take your time getting back to me if you need to, I've got to get dinner on and spend some time with my kids anyway. Probably be late tonight or early tomorrow before I can log back on. Thanks again!

Jen

Cerri,

Here's an update I posted over in EN.

Really blew it! Please help! Thanks again,

jenateare

<small>[ July 22, 2003, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: jenateare ]</small>

Jena,

Read your other threads at EN very quickly. I agree with other posters that you need to check out very carefully things such as drug and alcohol use with this friend. I had the same immediate concern about a gay experimentation or attachment.

The other thing I was wondering about, since this is my field of intense interest, is whether he and this friend are cruising the strip clubs and singles bars.

One of the things you said that hit me very hard was that your work schedules prevent you from seeing each other during the week. Big danger flag. Every expert in the marriage saving industry agrees that greatest cause of marital failure is that couples don't spend enough time together (and believe me.... we don't agree on anything else!! ) So even if you do everything else right you cannot and will not restore your marriage unless you make an adjustment that allows you to spend more time together. Harley insists on a minimum of 15 hours a week giving each other your undivided attention and meeting the needs of conversation, affection, recreational companionship and sexual fulfillment. From everything I see he's right on the mark.

And frankly, your H is getting some of those needs met by and with his friend.

Now what can you do? The process is quite simple in theory and quite difficult in practice. You need to:

Be honest. Your husband needs to know how you feel about his actions and choices. This needs to be done in a way that is respectful, calm and courteous. It needs to be about YOU and your feelings. "When you are gone, I feel ____."

Yes, I read that he said you don't have a "right" to feel that way. Bummer for him.... tell him anyway but do not engage in an argument. If he starts to yell or be abusive say that you won't be spoken to that way (calmly) and either hang up the phone or walk away. If there is an escalation of abuse we need to talk about safety.

Ask for what you want and need. This is a little harder for me to get a handle on, since I'm not sure I know what that is. We'll talk more about that, ok/

Eliminate your own love busters. Demands, disrespect, anger, annoying habits, independent behavior and dishonesty. Gotta go. No excuse for any of them regardless of what he is or is not doing.

Meet needs as best you can. Kinda hard when you don't see each other. Do you know what his needs are?

If those things don't effect change then you need to consider separating in a Plan B scenario. When to do that depends on you and how you are feeling about him. If you can't control your LBers anymore (after having worked to eliminate them) or if you are beginning to dislike him, it's getting close to time.

What can I help you with?

C

Cerri,

First of all, thanks sooo much for taking time for me. I know you're very busy and I greatly appreciate it.

I guess what I'm really trying to figure out is exactly how to deal with this whole second shift issue. The friend is undoubtedly a problem, but if my H were not on second shift, that would make it impossible for them to spend much time together anyway. So I guess the first issue to deal with is the second shift issue. Here's the problem: my husband feels that second shift is part of who he is and that working first shift is not an option for him. True, when he was on dayshift he was always tired and rarely did anything after work except sit in the recliner and watch tv. We did have some problems because I felt that he was sitting on his rump, doing nothing while I worked hard to fix supper, chase the kids, tidy the house, and get everyone bathed and dressed for bed and tucked in. He really didn't seem to have any energy. He would go to bed at a reasonable time, but he wouldn't sleep much or well and he would be "useless" the next day because of it. This was every day, not just occasionally. Because of that, he doesn't feel first shift is an option. I realized that most of our serious marital problems stem from the fact that we literally never see each other, but he doesn't see that. When I try to discuss this issue with him, he tells me that second shift is part of who he is and that asking him to change shifts is asking him to change himself. He goes on to say that if I want to divorce over something as stupid as him working second shift, then there's just nothing he can do about that and that makes him wonder if I have some hidden agenda (which I don't) to explain why something so stupid would cause such problems for us. After all, he says, lots of couples do this everyday. We don't need to spend every minute together, according to him. Based on his attitude towards being on second shift, I just don't know how to approach the issue.

I feel (and have expressed to him) that this is not a stupid issue. After all, I'm the one who's getting the hard part. I stay home alone with kids all the time. I have given up recreation almost completely. I have almost all the responsibility for this family and home. And I do without basic, adult companionship most days. He claims to understand how stressful and frustrating this situation can be for me, but I know that he doesn't truly understand because he's never done it before.

So, let me get to the point (finally). We could likely negotiate a plan that would allow us 15 hours a week together even with him on second shift. Granted, we'd have to be creative, but I think we could do that. According to the MB concepts, would it be a good idea to start there? What I'm hoping is that if we are able to fall back in love as a result of following the MB plan, maybe he would be motivated on his own to go back on first shift (or even 3rd would be fine because we'd still have evenings and weekends together). Or, maybe he'd be more likely to at least consider it. Or, do you think I should skip right to plan B, right now, if he won't consider first shift?

Thanks again,

jen

Hi Jena,

I guess what I'm really trying to figure out is exactly how to deal with this whole second shift issue. The friend is undoubtedly a problem, but if my H were not on second shift, that would make it impossible for them to spend much time together anyway.

Well, the real problem is how you make decisions in your marriage, and the level of honesty that is expressed.

In marriage, if it's to be successful, the decisions each of you makes need to take the others' feelings into account. And the choices you make as a couple, things like where to live, where to work, what hours to work, what to drive, etc.... need to be made in a way that the outcome is good for both of you at the same time AND they need to take the overall health and wellbeing of the marriage into account.

Sooo....you might both be ok with the idea of working separate shifts because it seems to make sense in terms of finances or childcare or whatever. But because we know that the number one requirement for couples to stay connected and in love is time together meeting each other's important needs we know that such a choice about work hours would not be in the best interest of the marriage.

Right now, he at least is making decisions that are good for him and bad for you... and therefore the marriage. The second shift issue and the friend problem are symptoms of this problem.

So I guess the first issue to deal with is the second shift issue. Here's the problem: my husband feels that second shift is part of who he is and that working first shift is not an option for him.

You know, there are days when I think if I have to hear "it's who I am..." one more time I'm going to run screaming from the room.... pulling out my hair as I go. Ok.... sorry... little rant there.

No, it's not who he is. It's what he is accustomed to doing. If all the workplaces in the world eliminated 2nd shift work he would not cease to exist... he would adjust and move on just fine... and he would still be the same person he was all along. The issue is it's what he's used to, it works for him, and he is willing to make himself happy at your expense.

True, when he was on dayshift he was always tired and rarely did anything after work except sit in the recliner and watch tv. We did have some problems because I felt that he was sitting on his rump, doing nothing while I worked hard to fix supper, chase the kids, tidy the house, and get everyone bathed and dressed for bed and tucked in.

Yes, a change like that requires adjustment. And it takes time. But once again, all of these things are symptomatic of a deeper issue which is how you decide to spend your time.... do you make decisions in a way that are good for both of you?

He really didn't seem to have any energy. He would go to bed at a reasonable time, but he wouldn't sleep much or well and he would be "useless" the next day because of it.

There would need to be some trial and error here. I would suspect that if he did more than sit in a recliner during his off time he would sleep better and then have more energy. He didn't go to school 2nd shift did he? How about date? Childhood?

This was every day, not just occasionally. Because of that, he doesn't feel first shift is an option.

See my sig line for the POJA quote. That's what he's telling you.... that what he wants to do is more important than how you feel.

I realized that most of our serious marital problems stem from the fact that we literally never see each other, but he doesn't see that. When I try to discuss this issue with him, he tells me that second shift is part of who he is and that asking him to change shifts is asking him to change himself.

And asking him to change would be bad because why??? We all change. Every day. Due to our jobs, our kids, our health, our parents, our friends, you name it.... the opposite of change is not staying the same... that's impossible. The opposite of change is death. So, I can't think of a better reason to change than the overall health of one's marriage.

He goes on to say that if I want to divorce over something as stupid as him working second shift, then there's just nothing he can do about that and that makes him wonder if I have some hidden agenda (which I don't) to explain why something so stupid would cause such problems for us.

Ok, and are you telling him how you FEEL?

After all, he says, lots of couples do this everyday.

Yes, and 65-80% of the couples in the US are hit with infidelity... that doesn't mean I would consider it acceptable!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Ok, you can't say that. You need to tell him how you feel. Emotions. Feeling words. Need the list?


I feel (and have expressed to him) that this is not a stupid issue.

That's not a feeling, it's a thought. The feeling statement is that you are very frustrated with the situation as it is.

After all, I'm the one who's getting the hard part. I stay home alone with kids all the time. I have given up recreation almost completely.

You are bored and lonely. Sad perhaps?

I have almost all the responsibility for this family and home. And I do without basic, adult companionship most days.

You're tired and overwhelmed? And I'm hearing lots of lonely here.

He claims to understand how stressful and frustrating this situation can be for me, but I know that he doesn't truly understand because he's never done it before.

Understanding is a crock. Unless there is action to make changes so that the marriage is happy and fulfilling for both of you understanding is just a pat on the head. Makes me see red. It's a way to make himself feel better, he understands, he cares.... so there's no guilt. Please.

So, let me get to the point (finally). We could likely negotiate a plan that would allow us 15 hours a week together even with him on second shift. Granted, we'd have to be creative, but I think we could do that. According to the MB concepts, would it be a good idea to start there?

Yeah, if you are enthusiastic about doing so under those conditions. But I have concerns about other needs being met. The 15 hours needs to be spent alone with each other meeting the needs of Aff. Conv. RC and SF. You still need 15 hours a week of FC time and time to resolve issues and meet other needs. Can you do that?

What I'm hoping is that if we are able to fall back in love as a result of following the MB plan, maybe he would be motivated on his own to go back on first shift (or even 3rd would be fine because we'd still have evenings and weekends together).

Possibly it's a first step. But until you address the issue of how you make decisions you're going to have an ongoing problem. I think he's probably in love with you now, that's not the issue? The issue is your level of frustration and loneliness?

Or, maybe he'd be more likely to at least consider it. Or, do you think I should skip right to plan B, right now, if he won't consider first shift?

No, I think you should give it a try. See what you can negotiate. Read up on the POJA in the articles and Q/A... as well as posts that I have and then let's talk more about that.

C

Cerri,

Man, you are good! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> So much wonderful insight. You definitely changed the way I have been thinking about a lot of this. As I read your post, I realized that I have been willing to accept all the excuses and patronizing which has enabled him to continue on with independant behavior that is poisonous to our relationship. We do have to change the way we make decisions in our relationship. The good news is, he's working with me to learn the MB concepts. We spent several hours over the weekend reading together and discussing how certain things apply to our relationship. He seemed truly interested. Obviously, I can't hit him with every change I want to see at once. But we're working on LB's and EN's and interestingly, one of the LB's I added to the questionnaire at the end was independant behavior and I stated that the way he displays it is by making choices that affect me without consulting me. We haven't gotten to discussing the questionnaires yet, so we'll see whether he accepts my feelings or tries to invalidate them. Of course, the hard part is taking the prinicples that MB teaches and actually putting them into practice to the point that they become habits. But I am hopeful.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You know, there are days when I think if I have to hear "it's who I am..." one more time I'm going to run screaming from the room.... pulling out my hair as I go. Ok.... sorry... little rant there. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't apologize! I think I might have actually done that a time or two! LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No, it's not who he is. It's what he is accustomed to doing. If all the workplaces in the world eliminated 2nd shift work he would not cease to exist... he would adjust and move on just fine... and he would still be the same person he was all along. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Never thought of it that way before. But I suppose I can't say that to him either, huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would suspect that if he did more than sit in a recliner during his off time he would sleep better and then have more energy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is definitely right on! We discussed this very thing several times when he was on first shift. Still, somehow he could never seem to find the motivation. But on those rare occasions when he would, it worked!

And, you are absolutely right about the lonely, overwhelmed, and frustrated feelings I have. And I like what you had to say about understanding being a pat on the head, a way to avoid guilt. I have shared these feelings with him, but usually in LB ways. I'm working on that!

Thanks so much for your time. You have great wisdom. I'm sure you'll be hearing more from me! LOL

jen

Hi Jena... LOL

[Man, you are good! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> So much wonderful insight.

Ahhhhhh yesssss..... flattery will get you everywhere chickie.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You might want to sign up for my newsletter which resumes in the fall, and check out the archived ones I have at my site.... link in my sig line.

As I read your post, I realized that I have been willing to accept all the excuses and patronizing which has enabled him to continue on with independant behavior that is poisonous to our relationship.

Yeah, much of the problem is that our society and our culture not only accept independent behaviour but we applaud and reward it. Tell someone that you aren't going to do something because your spouse would object and they think you're in need of mental health services. Indpendent behavior has become a virtue in our society and taking one's spouse's feelings into account is seen as "codependent" (another word guaranteed to make me run screaming from the room! LOL ) and "weak."

Now, anyone who knows me for more than a few minutes would have a difficult time applying either of those terms to me personally and yet I'm a rather obsessive proponent of POJA. Although I do have to confess to an occassional independent slip I'm far more likely to insist on the do nothing if I sense either of us isn't enthusiastic.

We do have to change the way we make decisions in our relationship. The good news is, he's working with me to learn the MB concepts.

Very cool. You can expect that he will probably "get it" right away in terms of things you are doing that either violate POJA, are lbers, or do not meet his needs. That's fine, it's the normal pattern.... to see how MB could make your life so much better without taking a good hard look at your own mistakes. The real key is the "do nothing" part and learning to stay in the present and to negotiate.

We spent several hours over the weekend reading together and discussing how certain things apply to our relationship. He seemed truly interested.

Very cool. Which book are you reading?

Obviously, I can't hit him with every change I want to see at once.

No you can't. If you can sell him on the concept of not making decisions until you are both enthusiastic about the entire solution and on spending 15 hours a week together meeting the needs of Aff. Conv. SF and RC then you are well on your way. The rest will follow soooo nicely.

So the way you approach it is to say to talk about the idea that everything you do in marriage affects how you feel about each other and that YOU'VE decided that you are not going to make decisions or take action unless you are both (and that means you too) are happy with the outcome. And then put that into practice.... don't so much as buy milk without asking how he would feel about it. Do nothing and negotiate if you sense even the slightest reluctance, and SPEAK UP if you aren't happy about something.

We haven't gotten to discussing the questionnaires yet, so we'll see whether he accepts my feelings or tries to invalidate them.

Do you have HN/HN? I really would suggest you start with needs. Starting with LBers is really difficult. I would say take the book, read a chapter at a time and then discuss the questions at the end of each one. If you do one a week and schedule some time away from home to do the questions you're spending time together, having good conversation, and learning what it takes to meet needs. I would do that before I did anything with the questionaires.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> No, it's not who he is. It's what he is accustomed to doing. If all the workplaces in the world eliminated 2nd shift work he would not cease to exist... he would adjust and move on just fine... and he would still be the same person he was all along. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Never thought of it that way before. But I suppose I can't say that to him either, huh?

<sigh> you are testing my confrontational tendencies here!! LOL..... Hmmmm.... Can you say that? You can say that you disagree with him, that you don't believe the hours one works defines who one is. That you understand how comfortable and familiar this schedule is but that it's painful for you.

This is definitely right on! We discussed this very thing several times when he was on first shift. Still, somehow he could never seem to find the motivation. But on those rare occasions when he would, it worked!

That's why you need a plan and a way to get it on track. It's really not any different than losing weight, changing eating patterns, or any other lifestyle change. One of the things that really helps is to change the conditions.... if you need to move the recliner out of the living room then do it. If you need to plan daily activites then do that.... the key is to break down how the old patterns happen and then change those conditions proactively so that it's easier to implement new habits, and harder to revert to the old ones.

And, you are absolutely right about the lonely, overwhelmed, and frustrated feelings I have. And I like what you had to say about understanding being a pat on the head, a way to avoid guilt. I have shared these feelings with him, but usually in LB ways. I'm working on that!

"I feel_____ when______." Very easy sentence, very hard to say. Practice. Make a point of sharing something in that manner at least three times a day. Two good comments and one difficult. Then add to it as things occur. Try to live and act in the present as much as possible. Saves on the resentment. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

Hi Cerri,

If you have a minute, please see my most recent post over in EN. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Here's a link:

Did I Say the Right Thing?

Thanks Cerri,
jen

Hi Jen…. Went to EN, came back here…. Here’s what I think.

Ok, somehow I missed that he is out of the house. That changes things. I haven’t decided for sure how… (it’s been a really looooooong day) but it does. So let’s go with what we have here while that new info rattles around amidst the blonde roots a while.

He seemed genuinely interested in the MB program and definitely gave me his undivided attention for it.

Ummmmm so did you hit on the topics of honesty and how you make decisions? Those have to come first. Followed very closely by the 15 hours undivided attention meeting the needs of …. Oh you know it…. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

The other things are great…. But they are the icing on the cake. The honesty and the way in which you make decisions has to be the foundation. Without those you’re on quicksand.

When he told me this, my first reaction (I thought this, didn't say it!) was that his short paycheck was due to his own choices - choices in which I was not given a say, nor was I even aware of what he was doing. Why should my daughter and I suffer for choices he is making?

Ok, now this is a perfect example of your Taker showing up and standing up for you and what you deserve and need. It’s not wrong, it’s not selfish… it’s self preservation and justice. (The Taker is NOT a bad guy. The strategies it encourages you to use are less than etiquettely sound, but the Taker is essential to you health and well being.)

But then I thought, "You know what? It's not worth. Absolutely nothing I say is going to cause him to give me the full amount. And more than likely, anything I say will just cause a nasty fight which produces no resolution to this problem." So, here's the conversation:

Now it might not look like it, but this too is the Taker at work. Taker’s first strategy is generally DD&A (demands, disrespect and anger) BUT when that has been shown not to work and to cause you pain (remember the T watches out for you and your feelings only) then it will encourage you to withdraw. It’s rationalization is exactly what you are saying… that conflict (DD&A) will not get you what you want and that your spouse isn’t worth the trouble so you might as well do nothing.

H: "I'm sorry, but I'm not going to be able to give you the full amount this time because..."
jen: "Okay, but if this happens again, could you please give me fair warning? If I had known this when I got paid, I might have handled my money differently." (No nasty or unpleasant tone at all.)
H: "Oh, yeah okay, but this is going to happen next time and once I get all my stuff [bills] taken care of, I'll probably be able to give you more."
jen: "Okay, that would be nice, because really I need it."

Calm, pleasant, courteous…. AND dishonest.

Where is the statement (which can be calm and courteous) about how you feel?

Your Giver tells you to “understand” (hate that word!!) that he’s a little short and your Taker tells you it’s not worth the pain you’ll go through. Neither of those instincts (that’s what they are) are helpful when it comes to navigating marriage.

Then last night when I talked to him, he asked to take me to lunch today (I know, if he can afford to take me to lunch, why can't he afford to pay the full amount?).

Here’s where the resentment will eventually surface. You’re not angry yet, because your G&T are working together on this one… with differing motives…. But the same strategy… but it will bite you in the butt sooner or later.

I'm really not angry about the money. Don't ask why, cause I don't know. This happened a couple of times early on in our separation and I went ballistic over it, which never changed matters any. Besides, he has been very consistent about paying the full amount for a few months now, so I didn't want to attack him and have him give me the "I've been paying this in full and time for months, then one time I mess up and ...." I guess I just didn't want to seem ungrateful for the fact that he does usually pay the full amount without having to be asked or whatever.

Ditto here. “Understanding” combined with feeling it’s not worth the effort.

I was trying hard not LB in this situation. And I feel good about how I handled it because what would usually turn out to be a nasty fight, was completely nonconfrontational - to the extent that he asked me to lunch for today.

Oh dear, I hate to be the bad guy. But dishonesty is a love buster. And a horribly insidious, subtle, destructive thing it is too…..

The only thing is I have that doormat paranoia. I don't want him to get the idea that he can do this on a regular basis and I won't get upset. Should I have said something different? Did I handle this in the spirit of MB?

Did I answer that? So tell me what could you have said that would have been honest and respectful? And remember you can't control his reaction only your behavior.

C

Wow Cerri, you just blew me away. I had no idea I was LBing. Didn't even realize I was being dishonest. I didn't think of it as being dishonest, although I was hiding some feelings from H. The trouble is, I don't know how to put it into a feeling statement. I'm not sure what I feel about it, I guess. I don't think I'm angry. It's not a mad feeling. I don't really know how to describe it as a feeling. I think it's selfishness on his part to put his own desires/needs before mine and our daughter's. I think it's irresponsible to give up shifts you won't be paid for when you know you have CS to pay. But that's not how I feel, that's a reflection of my values. So your question is a real stumper for me. How do I express that in terms of feelings?

jen

PS - Sorry to answer your question with a question! I really appreciate that you didn't just give me the answer. I'm just truly stumped on this one!

No jen, that's not what you feel. That's what you think of him. You think he's irresponsible and selfish, and both of those are disrespectful judgments. How does it make you feel when he does these things? Let me see if I can get close.

I feel afraid when I know there won't be enough money.

I feel angry when you choose not to work and I know I can't meet the bills.

I feel sad when you put your recreational needs before the needs of our family.

Fear, anger, sadness....these are feelings that belong to you. You're still describing him....describe you.

Thanks Star, you got me thinkin' the MB way. How 'bout...

I feel hurt when you choose your recreational needs over our family's needs.

I feel angry when you choose not to work and then can't keep the child support agreement we made.

So, what do I do with this? Do I go back and tell him that I wasn't honest with him the first time around and that I need to be honest with him now? And then what? This is where I've always had trouble before. What can I really do about this? The whole idea is that I can't change him, I can only change me - and I totally buy into that. So, once he knows how this really affects me, are we supposed to negotiate? What's to negotiate? As far as I'm concerned, there's no room for negotiation - I mean if I'm gonna be honest, let's just be honest for cryin' out loud (gee, I guess I am angry). CS is something that really shouldn't be negotiable. But the only way for me to enforce it is to take it up with the child support bureau. I don't think it would be a good idea to threaten him with those consequences should this happen again. Won't that just alienate him? So what exactly do I do once I've told him how I really feel about this?

jen

PS - Cerri, what is a Save Your Marriage Separation? And is it too late for us to have one since we've already been separated for 4 months?

yes jena,

You can go back and say.....H, I know that if we aren't honest with eachother, that we will only slow down our recovery. I complain, but I don't tell you how I really feel....and I want to. I think it's important for you to understand what my honest feelings are, or how can you help me. Then you tell him. And ask him if there is a way you two can discuss the issues that are destroying your marriage....especially time together. See if you can POJA the time issue. That takes ole Don right outta the loop ya know????