My question over on GQII....

Man I hope that worked! LOL!

All other comments welcome and appreciated as well!!

All of you folks here are truly a blessing to me! Thank You!

Helen

<small>[ July 23, 2003, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: HelenWheels ]</small>

LOL Helen.... very cute...

I peeked very quickly at your thread before. Not enough to get the meat of it though.

Did you see the POJA thread I had at EN a couple weeks ago? Now why didn't I bookmark that.... man, in my next life I am NOT going to be blonde... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Ok, let me find that for you.... take a look at it tonight and then meet me back here tomorrow. I'll re-read your GQII post in the morning.

C

Hi Cerri!

Thanks so much for the reply....

Yes, I did see the POJA thread....and it prompted me to ask for more info that I can apply to my specific situation.

I will re-read it, too. I'm so frazzled and frustrated right now....there may be things added or things that I've missed....

Today is one of those days where I have to work hard to remember how blessed I really am....and how much I do have to be grateful for....(sigh)
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Helen

Hi Helen:
I read some of your other thread. Tough thing to deal with. Make me happy and then I will make you happy. Except, you can't ever make me happy so I don't have to make you happy. What a shame.

I suggest reading, and giving your H to read the giver and taker. Right now you are giving, giving, giving. At some point in time you need to take, or you will shut down and not give any more.

All I can say is have faith, and pray a 2X4 hits your H over the head to shake the copwebs lose. This whole thing takes time. More time then we ever want it to.

Here is a link. Praying for you.

Giver & Taker

Helen.... Just read your initial post at GQII.....oh my..... do I know what you're talking about!!!! LOL

Ok.... here's my plan... I'm going to cut and paste and respond to that first post at your thread here in the morning... and then let's see where that takes us.

But for now.... I gotta get some little darlings into bed and get away from the computer.

C

Morning!

In a nutshell, here's my problem....(F?)WH very definite conflict avoider, and I strongly suspect much deeper and serious issues.....

Conflict avoidance is just a nice way of saying dishonest. When one doesn’t share feelings, actions or decisions because of a fear of conflict… it’s still dishonesty. If you live with someone like that one of the things you need to ask them… and yourself…. is, what would it take to make being honest with me safe?

Refuses any kind of MC or IC...although to his credit, he has agreed to EN, LB questionnaires, and reading some thing about infedelity, etc. that I have printed out from this site and a few others....at least on the surface.....

What about reading HN/HN one chapter at a time and then discussing the questions at the ends of the chapters? It’s pretty much what the couples who go to the weekends are given as assignments.

Awhile back, during the meeting each other's needs discussions, he made certain requests of me to take care of what he saw as LB's....ok, fine...I've worked on these specific things and have made good (although not perfect) progress....

At the same time, he's only given lip-service to what I consider LB's, or continually finds excuses as to why he hasn't made efforts, or flat out says that my needs are unnecessary, or stupid, etc.

Ok, I agree this is really annoying… not to mention hypocritical. BUT, the things that we DO which cause pain in marriage – Love Busters – are not negotiable. We need to take responsibility for ourselves and avoid them at all costs, regardless of what our spouse does or does not do. There’s no excuse for DD&A, dishonesty (unless there’s a real threat of abuse and then we need to talk about protection) or annoying and independent habits and choices. So, if he’s id’d LBers of yours, you need to get rid of them, even if he’s not addressing one’s you’ve id’d. And we’ll get to your options on how to handle that in a bit. (Remind me if I get too long winded and forget <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

OK-That ticks me off to be disrespected and belittled in such a manner....but, allowing for withdrawal, resentment, fog-bound or simple avoidance tactics, I've tried very hard to meet his needs and wait for him to "come around" to being willing to do more than just talk about mine...

Ok… now…. Meeting needs is a WHOLE DIFFERENT ball game.

There are two ways we cause pain in marriage. The first is what I talked about above, the things Harley calls Love Busters. Those you need to get rid of no matter what. The second is neglect…. NOT doing the things that our partner needs to be happy and fulfilled in the marriage. SF, Conv, Aff, RC, FS, DS…. You know the list.

Now those we negotiate for. I am not, and Harley is not, a proponent of meeting needs without reciprocation. Then you’re into the realm of unconditional love… which is just setting you up for feelings of resentment and hurt… exactly what you are experiencing now. This is exactly what MB is all about and what POJA addresses. Balance…. Making sure that YOU and your spouse are happy with the lifestyle you have including the way you meet needs.

What is truly driving me crazy at this point...is this...he will express a "need" for me to change a specific behavior or implement certain "considerations"...and as soon as I do these things...he says..."I've decided that a, b, and c are not so important, so now I want x,y, and z...."

Ok, but that’s not a need. That’s a demand to do something the way he would like it done… regardless of how you feel about doing so… or how you feel about the conditions under which you are complying. Let me ask you this? Are YOU enthusiastic about how this process is working? If not, then you are in violationg POJA

Never DO anything (not avoid, it addresses active stuff) without an enthusiastic agreement between you and your spouse

YOU need to be enthusiastic about all the terms and the outcome of the deal as well.

Or....holding my needs "hostage" in the spirit of..."If you do A, then I will do B"...etc...but amazingly enough....B never happens....or A turns in to A+C,D&E....

And are you enthusiastic about making a deal in that manner? Of meeting his needs under those conditions? Doesn’t sound like it to me. If not, then you need to be honest and say so.

Or....when I can get him to negotiate and compromise....and it appears that we have POJA'd any issue....he builds resentments about his "concessions" and how I've forced him to "give in"...his words....

Compromise and POJA are not the same thing. If he’s saying that, then he is telling you that he wasn’t enthusiastic but that he did indeed give in. Not fun to hear, but definitely valuable information about how the process isn’t working. In fact, it’s quite similar to what you are doing when you say that you are meeting his needs and then not getting what you thought you were in return…. Concessions and giving in are the result of demands.

Instead of negotiating to enthusiastic agreement you are both doing things grudgingly… you are “understanding” why the other needs something and doing it for them even if it doesn’t feel all that great for you. Your Giver is out of control. You’re building resentment.

When I insist that he stick to his agreements..all I get are resentment and angry outbursts...or flat-out stonewalling and complete shut down and withdrawal...

Ok, I’ve been here, and I know the frustration you’re going through. Part of the problem is that you’re not working with real honesty and you’re not working cooperatively to find solutions that work for both of you. AND you are each giving in and doing things for each other that you really aren’t thrilled about doing and when you do that you’re left with a feeling of entitlement… now s/he owes me because I did this thing for him/her.
That’s why the “do nothing” part is so important. Unless and until you can both say “YES!! That works for me!” you need to sit tight and do nothing.

See, Takers get the rap for all kinds of bad stuff. But really, your Taker is not a bad guy. A little light on the social skills and finer graces of how to make friends and influence people… but your Taker serves an invaluable purpose. Your Taker looks out for you… its only concern is that you are safe, happy and cared for. When your Taker is out of control it can almost always be traced back to a Giver that was allowed waaay too much freedom. Only Takers can be truly enthusiastic.

Your Giver is a nice guy…. when it comes to others. Your Giver will do anything to make someone else happy, even if it means destroying you in the process. Your Giver “understands” why your spouse needs something you’re not happy about and will encourage you to give and let him/her have whatever it is they want. Givers have no capacity for enthusiasm and are rather dreary martyrish sorts.

When you negotiate, you need to come to the table with your Taker. This is the one that needs to be satisfied on both sides of the negotiation. Only when you can walk away with two happy Takers will have reached a successful solution that preserves your feelings of love and avoids resentment… providing of course you negotiate fairly and pleasantly.

Alright… so that’s a tiny bit of the theory… what about you? I think you need to put a stop to your Giver. It’s getting you into trouble. Yeah…. I know…. Hubby is being a PITA, but remember I told you I’ve been where you are…. And the only person whose behavior you can directly affect is yours… so let’s start there.

When you are asked to do something you need to stop and think, is this something I feel excited and pleased to do given all the conditions present at this time? If there is a no answer in there anywhere you need to be honest. “Honey, I’d love to do that for you, but I’m not happy about this part of it. Can we talk about how to make that work for both of us?” If the answer is yes, great… go for it. If not… then YOU DON’T DO WHATEVER IT IS HE’S ASKING.

Ditto with the needs. Are you enthusiastic about meeting his need for ____ under the current conditions? If not…. The you need to say, “This isn’t working for me.”

The latest long line...."I'm worried about financial issues...I can't concentrate on emotional things as long as I see possible financial difficulties..."

PS-Our financial situation, although not trouble-free, is basically ok...minimal debt, no credit actions or collection issues...the bills get paid, on time, we are not starving, etc...no loss of residence...or imminent threat of any of these things occuring.....

Ok, but I think that’s valid to say this is a problem and I need to feel secure. Do you know what exactly it is he’s concerned about? Ask this, “What would it take in terms of financial security for you to feel safer?” This gives you great info and something to bargain with.

Ok, that’s a whole lot of food for thought…. Hit me with the questions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

C

Wow!
Thanks Cerri!

Scanned over the post, only have a few minutes...be back in about an hour...or less....

Helen

Helen, other thoughts or questions? Let me know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

C

OK-Cerri, here goes....

Exactly what is driving me batty about the financial thing....and the crux of this is that my Giver is tied up tight with duct tape all over her face.....he's not happy with that at all....

#1-This is REALLY important for him, more so than me. Being a single mom for many years taught me to trust God and fly on a wing and a prayer when that was all I had.....OK-Fine-I can deal with that being his #1 issue or EN (financial support). My failure to listen and respond to his sensitivity on this subject was my biggest contribution to the state of the union pre-A. Also for him, the biggest excuse he used to do just that....have an affair.....I didn't care about our finances, etc....

So-therefore, from his point of view, I'm coming to the negotiating table already in arrears. Acknowledged and digested.

Background....Before all of this, when we both worked at the same place (where we met, naturally)...our schedules and pay were in synch so to speak and there were no problems. We did everything together...24/7, work, recreation, etc.

Due to no fault of my own, I lost my job at that place. The factory cut back, and I didn't have enough seniority to save my job. I didn't see it then as I do now, but the change in him was immediate and profound from that day forward....

Also from the day that we met...I have sold on ebay. A hobby that did very well....he seemed impressed and even thought that it was a good skill to have, "just in case"....and the extra $$$ was very nice when it came to wanting this, that or the other.....I spent probably 20 hrs or so a week on my hobby. He didn't always like the time, but the cash made it more palatable, for sure.

At that time, the job market here was already on the decline, to take a lesser job at another place on a different shift with different days off didn't seem wise...seeing as his other top EN's are RC and SF... I knew he was pretty needy....and it was nice to be needed, etc....LOL!! so I suggested that the most logical, and flexible thing to do was what I already knew....ebay....just sell more and do it full time.

We discussed this for a month or so...as soon as I knew that I was definitely gonna lose my job. I hadn't found this place yet, so POJA and other concepts were not in play, either. He was pensive, but agreed that I could give it a whirl...

For about 3 or 4 months, I actually made more on ebay with less effort than my old job ever took...I think he was actually more than a little envious....then Enron and the economy crashed in full force....sales took a nose dive, prices went wayyyy down, and I was toast.

Granted, I didn't plan to fail, I failed to plan...and communication between us was not clear on the possible consequences of such an event...I figured we had savings to fall back on if I needed to find a job, so every penny of profit went to more merchandise....It was openly discussed and agreed upon....neither one of us really expected that to happen, but the possibility was brought up and the savings were "Plan B"...and I would find other work if necessary.

He says that the day that he first touched our savings for regular bills, he figured that I didn't care enough....and it got worse!

My instinct was to sell more, cheaper, spend more time on the computer trying to fix things, make more money....Wrong!! All that led to was his other EN's suffering, no companionship, no sex, etc...was just more evidence that I didn't care....so he fell into a A with a gal at work....an emotionally needy one that needed rescuing....I found MB during this time, last October...

After D-Day, he hemmed and hawed for only a couple of weeks, flaunting his floozy in my face and in my house, while planning "happily ever after" with her....we'll call her "S"....I never got clear answers, but the A lasted for a month to 6 weeks or so....depending on his definition of "affair"....

After he dumped S and said he wanted to work this out with me, I had learned enough to do a decent plan A and negotiate....I agreed that his need in the financial area was where I had screwed up, and I got a job. Still kept ebaying on the side.....

Job was only part time, but to me that was fine, ebay, even though reduced, made up the difference, and allowed me the flexibility to be available to meet his other EN's....the honeymoon lasted a month or so, I was the happiest I had ever been, the intimacy was soooo grand.....he was enthusiastic about the arrangement, or so he said, and acted as if that were so.....and one day, poof, he drew back emotionally, entirely and completely and I was soooo confused....that was around or shortly before Christmas....

It took me til March 22nd to get at what was going on....he had begun having sporadic sex with the neighbor, who just happened to be an ex of his...he said that at one time, before us, she was only a "friend with benefits", "she always wanted more, but wasn't R material" etc. We'll call her "K"....

My instinct says I was the OW to their R...BTW..

Not knowing that he was currently involved with "K", I was asking questions about last summer, when things started going downhill...getting at what was wrong in the R before the work "S" thing....I asked him if he had been with "K" back then, in my heart I knew but I played ostrich then and didnt push. I really didn't want to know back then, so I didn't ask.....

He admitted that yes, he had re-kindled with "K" last summer, and further more, admitted that although it had been "awhile", he had been with "K" SINCE we had gotten back together after his A w/ "S"....I had no clue whatsoever....he was coming home from work, doing and saying all of the right things, from what I could see....the A with "S" devastated me, there is no word for what this info did to me emotionally.

Like I told him...."I never thought that I had to worry every time you walked the dog"....."I thought that I only had to worry while you were at work, not 24/7"

Gaslighted so bad.....I was telling folks that I was so fried, the Colonel would have been proud....all lies, false recovery, the whole crap....

He even continued to lie right up until another neighbor came and told me that I had better ask what he was "up to" with "K"...I found out later that "K" had asked this 3rd neighbor to help her get rid of him, he was keeping after her, when she was telling him to come to me for what he wanted and to leave her alone.....

He said that he felt the weight lifted off him, he told the truth....I thanked him for his honesty and promptly fell apart....a raving BS madwoman for sure....he's damn lucky to be alive, much less intact as a man....

The repurcussions of this 2nd mess were that I felt humiliated (again)in front of our whole neighborhood community, she almost filed harassment and sexual assualt charges, we were threatened with eviction if he didn't cease and desist...OMG, it was/is hell, especially on top of trying to cope with the aftermath of "S"....no counseling, no pills, just a wing and a prayer....and MB....

What all this is leading to is this....I asked him why....his answers started at the proverbial "I don't know" and went from that to, "I was mad at you...you weren't trying hard enough"....all my fault...now he just says "I was bored, and you were either at the laundromat or sleeping"...still all my fault for not being immediately available for SF, or otherwise occupied with anything other than paying attention to him, you see....

Fast forward to now, Yes, I'm still here, but out of patience with this whole deal.

Because of my previously mentioned lack of attention to his distress signals concerning the finances, he insists that the only way that I can make him feel secure is to do what he wants, his way, no other discussion needed, no negotiation.

At the same time, he has done absolutely nothing to offer me any security in this R at all, no protection, nada. Lots of talk, no backum up....

No wonder I think that white man speaketh with forked tongue.... tail and horns too....LOL!!

I have said this....for right now, I'm finding and re-building my self respect, self worth, self esteem and sense of security in selling on ebay.

In lieu of getting any of my needs met from him, I am refusing to give it up....in a very real sense, to me anyways, it's all I have right now!!It's what I'm looking to that can help me realize that I CAN recover from this, and I'll be OK, eventually, with him or without.....

He says that he will not offer the marraige any of these things UNTIL I give up ebay and make him feel secure....financially....but after "S", when I had a job and did whatever he asked, he still cheated, deliberately, with foresight to hurt me.....which leads me to think that no matter what I do, it will never be enough....

And to boot, many other small mostly annoying things that I did to bug him, I have changed....he even commented to "K" the neighbor, during a tryst, how cool this MB place was that silly ol' Helen was visiting, he got whatever he wanted, all he had to do was ask....there is no way that she could have known about me learning MB concepts, except from him.....to even think about that statement still just burns me to the core.....he won't even admit that he said anything like that, much less apologize...GRRRRR!!!!!

Well, this is long enough for now....it's mostly how we got to the stand-off we appear to be at...there are other things, but this is the meat of it, so to speak....

As for questions....I'm not even sure where to begin.....they are there, but not formulated coherently enough for public consumption, yet....but I'm working on it...progress, not perfection!

Helen

<small>[ July 29, 2003, 03:33 AM: Message edited by: HelenWheels ]</small>

Ok, now we're getting somewhere. It's not just about finances and meeting needs, it's about how decisions in general are made and about restoring your marriage after infidelity..... Don't underestimate the role that is playing in all this.

Most marriages don't end because of an affair. But they do end when there is not a real plan for recovery... when the couple just kind of bumbles around never addressing the conditions that led to the affair or that allowed it to flourish. And of course a huge part of that is honesty, accountability and how decisions are made.

Exactly what is driving me batty about the financial thing....and the crux of this is that my Giver is tied up tight with duct tape all over her face.....he's not happy with that at all....

Tying up your Giver, not a bad thing. It would be good to do the same with your Taker and then to listent to each of them but to make decisions based on intellect and not their emotional tugging.

#1-This is REALLY important for him, more so than me. Being a single mom for many years taught me to trust God and fly on a wing and a prayer when that was all I had.....OK-Fine-I can deal with that being his #1 issue or EN (financial support). My failure to listen and respond to his sensitivity on this subject was my biggest contribution to the state of the union pre-A.

Ok, so you're seeing that although you have a great trust that things will work out just fine, he doesn't have the same comfort level and you are willing to accomodate him in this?

Generally the rule is that the one with the greater sensitivity needs to be accomodated.

Also for him, the biggest excuse he used to do just that....have an affair.....I didn't care about our finances, etc....

And of course you know that just doesn't wash. No matter what you did or did not do, it is never ok to have an affair. There are ethical ways to deal with problems in a marriage..... infidelity..... not one of them.

So-therefore, from his point of view, I'm coming to the negotiating table already in arrears. Acknowledged and digested.

Mmmmm...... ok, that may be his POV and we can acknowledge it, but we don't have to buy it. Good heavens... he's coming to the table having been unfaithful.... I would say that puts him in arrears!! So why don't we just say that there are issues and that changes need to be made and that NOBODY gets to demand things. That there is no "you did this and now you need to do ___ for me regardless of how you feel about it." That nothing will be done until you are both happy with the solution.

He didn't always like the time, but the cash made it more palatable, for sure.

Grudging consent?

We discussed this for a month or so...as soon as I knew that I was definitely gonna lose my job. I hadn't found this place yet, so POJA and other concepts were not in play, either. He was pensive, but agreed that I could give it a whirl...

So, looking back.... do you think he was really happy with this solution? Was it a try it and see thing? Or was it more just giving in?

Granted, I didn't plan to fail, I failed to plan...and communication between us was not clear on the possible consequences of such an event

Yes, well that happens to all of us even in the best of circumstances. The issue is not the conflict but how it is handled going forward.

I figured we had savings to fall back on if I needed to find a job, so every penny of profit went to more merchandise....It was openly discussed and agreed upon....neither one of us really expected that to happen, but the possibility was brought up and the savings were "Plan B"...and I would find other work if necessary.

So, once again it was grudgingly agreed to? The Plan B scenario?

He says that the day that he first touched our savings for regular bills, he figured that I didn't care enough....and it got worse!

And here is where it breaks down for real? When actions were taken that one of you was not enthusiastic about.... instead of doing nothing and negotiating.... things just moved forward. He felt insecure about the finances and resentful. And you, having a different level of trust on these things were ok with it?

My instinct was to sell more, cheaper, spend more time on the computer trying to fix things, make more money....Wrong!!

Uh huh.... the do more of the same and do it harder and longer, even though it's not working syndrome. I hear ya!

[n]All that led to was his other EN's suffering, no companionship, no sex, etc...was just more evidence that I didn't care....[/b]

Right, it feels like you didn't care because it was a decision on how to handle a conflict that didn't work for both of you.

so he fell into a A with a gal at work....an emotionally needy one that needed rescuing....I found MB during this time, last October...

Still not ok.... no matter what you did.

After D-Day, he hemmed and hawed for only a couple of weeks, flaunting his floozy in my face and in my house, while planning "happily ever after" with her....we'll call her "S"....I never got clear answers, but the A lasted for a month to 6 weeks or so....depending on his definition of "affair"....

Is he still in contact with her?

After he dumped S and said he wanted to work this out with me, I had learned enough to do a decent plan A and negotiate....I agreed that his need in the financial area was where I had screwed up, and I got a job. Still kept ebaying on the side.....

Plan A is NOT applicable once the affair ends. Plan A is a strategy to end the affair and to entice the straying spouse back into the marriage. Once that is accomplished there needs to be a Plan for Recovery that includes all kinds of conditions to address the issues in the marriage AND to make sure that you are not ever harmed in this way again.

Job was only part time, but to me that was fine, ebay, even though reduced, made up the difference, and allowed me the flexibility to be available to meet his other EN's....the honeymoon lasted a month or so, I was the happiest I had ever been, the intimacy was soooo grand.....he was enthusiastic about the arrangement, or so he said, and acted as if that were so.....and one day, poof, he drew back emotionally, entirely and completely and I was soooo confused....that was around or shortly before Christmas....

See I would guess that he really was happy with much of the arrangement. But because the things that led to the affair weren't addressed up front and since there weren't extraordinary precautions put into place (accountability for time, whereabouts and money being the biggies.... plus very radical honesty) it became very easy to have another A in order to escape from conflict. It felt good the first time.... so why not do it again?

It took me til March 22nd to get at what was going on....he had begun having sporadic sex with the neighbor, who just happened to be an ex of his...he said that at one time, before us, she was only a "friend with benefits", "she always wanted more, but wasn't R material" etc. We'll call her "K"....

Yeah....

My instinct says I was the OW to their R...BTW..

Very interesting.... we need to talk more about that one!

I had no clue whatsoever....he was coming home from work, doing and saying all of the right things, from what I could see....the A with "S" devastated me, there is no word for what this info did to me emotionally.

I've been there. I know. It's horrible. The worst thing you can imagine... and then worse than that.

Like I told him...."I never thought that I had to worry every time you walked the dog"....."I thought that I only had to worry while you were at work, not 24/7"

It is always 24/7.

He said that he felt the weight lifted off him, he told the truth....I thanked him for his honesty and promptly fell apart....a raving BS madwoman for sure....he's damn lucky to be alive, much less intact as a man....

Not the best choice of behavior, but certainly understandable. The thing is to be able to move on and not go back to the raving screaming BS.

What all this is leading to is this....I asked him why....his answers started at the proverbial "I don't know" and went from that to, "I was mad at you...you weren't trying hard enough"....all my fault...now he just says "I was bored, and you were either at the laundromat or sleeping"...

We all ask it, and there is no why. There is no answer to that question. This is something you will need to deal with alone. The things you do need to know are how and when and where and with whom.... so that you can create conditions that make it virtually impossible to do it again.

Fast forward to now, Yes, I'm still here, but out of patience with this whole deal.

Of course you are. You are at that not really recovering and just bumbling around stage. The issue is not finances. The issue is needing to get on the same page that says WE are going to do what it takes to save this marriage.... now how do WE do that.

Because of my previously mentioned lack of attention to his distress signals concerning the finances, he insists that the only way that I can make him feel secure is to do what he wants, his way, no other discussion needed, no negotiation.

And the answer to a demand is always, always.... "Sorry, but, no."

At the same time, he has done absolutely nothing to offer me any security in this R at all, no protection, nada. Lots of talk, no backum up....

Yeah, it's a mess when you are in the same house, reconciled supposedly after an A, and there haven't been agreed upon conditions for the marriage to continue.

When the A ends, if the WS is out of the house, you have an opportunity to insist on what the conditions for returning will be. It's one of the few times you can legitimately make a demand. When he is still at home you need to use other tools. They are honesty, attempts to negotiate, and the separation to protect your LBnk if those things don't work.

Right now you need a heavy dose of honesty and a willingness to hold fast against any and all demands and to do nothing until you are both good with the solution.

I have said this....for right now, I'm finding and re-building my self respect, self worth, self esteem and sense of security in selling on ebay.

And he is enthusiastic about this?

He says that he will not offer the marraige any of these things UNTIL I give up ebay and make him feel secure....financially....

Ok, apparently not!! So then the questions are: What is it about selling on ebay that makes him uncomfortable? What can you do to make it feel more secure for him? What other steps can you take to help increase his feelings of financial security?

Like almost all conflict, it's rarely as big as it seems. There are virtually always pieces of the whole that can be tweaked and addressed to make it work for both partners. The problem is that we get polarized and dig in our heels... and that doesn't help anyone.

but after "S", when I had a job and did whatever he asked, he still cheated, deliberately, with foresight to hurt me.....which leads me to think that no matter what I do, it will never be enough....

Yes, and there needs to be very firm conditions for recovery.... that issue has not been addressed at all.

And to boot, many other small mostly annoying things that I did to bug him, I have changed....he even commented to "K" the neighbor, during a tryst, how cool this MB place was that silly ol' Helen was visiting, he got whatever he wanted, all he had to do was ask....

ACK!!!!! Well, that's the problem with a not real Plan A..... it's not just about meeting needs. It shouldn't be enabling.

As for questions....I'm not even sure where to begin.....they are there, but not formulated coherently enough for public consumption, yet....but I'm working on it...progress, not perfection!

Well, there must be enough controversial statements here now to spur a few into consciousness.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C

Whoo Boy! What a day! Actually, the last several days....So many thoughts, more than a few strange ideas, even an insight or two...

First of all, Cerri- I can't ever thank you enough for taking the time and making the effort to give me some of your great advice and a few ideas more specific to my situation....I'm also praying that my openness and seeking and your wisdom will help another poor soul who finds themselves here at MB, devastated and without hope....

I'll comment on a couple of your comments first, then on to the rest, some of what I learned today may put this mess into a whole 'nuther ballpark...ugh!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Plan A is NOT applicable once the affair ends. Plan A is a strategy to end the affair and to entice the straying spouse back into the marriage. Once that is accomplished there needs to be a Plan for Recovery that includes all kinds of conditions to address the issues in the marriage AND to make sure that you are not ever harmed in this way again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I only used plan A to facilitate the end the A with "S"....Absolutely all of this conflict and the rest of this crap has been about the Plan for Recovery that you speak of.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> After D-Day, he hemmed and hawed for only a couple of weeks, flaunting his floozy in my face and in my house, while planning "happily ever after" with her....we'll call her "S"....I never got clear answers, but the A lasted for a month to 6 weeks or so....depending on his definition of "affair"....

Is he still in contact with her? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They still work at the same place, but she changed shifts, she says to get away from him....

By her own admission,and confirmed by others-- I know that she has had at least 2 flings with other men since they broke up.

This "lady" has enough troubles of her own....during their A, she was/is married to one man, living with another, and having an A with my man....all at the same time!

A nut on the hunt for any malnourished squirrel she can snag, for sure!

Her own issues and demands, and LB's did probably more to wreck the A than my plan A did.....

I really don't think that they talk to each other...she was too hurt and he was too mad, plus the fact of her being with others...no candles burning in those windows...but I can't rule out eye-contact when he's leaving work and she's going in.....and I can't say he is completely over the "what-if's" and "if onlys"...

Last time I talked to her <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> she had found her next "soulmate" and was planning happily ever after. Strange, she didn't mention her H or live-in b'f at all.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Fast forward to now, Yes, I'm still here, but out of patience with this whole deal.

Of course you are. You are at that not really recovering and just bumbling around stage. The issue is not finances. The issue is needing to get on the same page that says WE are going to do what it takes to save this marriage.... now how do WE do that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly...I'm not recovering and he's doing everything he can to avoid facing any of the real issues within himself that allowed him to do what he did....I'm beginning to see this dance as a very real way for him to continue to deny that he needs to work on himself more....my dance card is now full and I'm sure tired of the "BS Foxtrot" and the "Infidelity Waltz" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

All this LB's and EN's stuff is a smokescreen....I've been very adamant for 9 months now that counseling for himself, myself and us together is absolutely vital if anything is ever going to be solved in a healthy manner and with any possibility of healthy results. Period.

His 2nd A with "K", while I was doing everything I could, to the point of co-dependent enabling ....showed me very clearly that his infidelity issues have absolutely nothing to do with me whatsoever. I instantly realized that I was and am off the hook on that one. No guilt. None.

I have considered that his emotional "pull-back" after a month or so of incredible intimacy....may have to do with a fear of intimacy on his part. I've gathered from our talks that he's never had that much intimacy with a woman that lasted for that long, EVER...and he got scared (his words).

My view of this I've boiled down to---he was feeling overwhelmed and emotionally bailed out....this is when he started up with "K"...and the method of relating to a female that he knew best and was most comfortable with....and basically "K" was his outlet when feeling overwhelmed emotionally with me....he apparently cannot deal with intense emotions for extended periods of time....positive emotions as well as negative ones...both caused him enough discomfort that he acted to qwell them....

I also gathered from our talks and putting together puzzle parts...he has cheated on every single woman he has ever been with, wether he was married or not...starting in his first M at age 18...so many of his problems already existed way back then....any time a R got really, really good or really, really bad....he cheated....comments??

These nitpicky detail things like finances is what I work on while he waffle-steps with the IC and MC thing...he says he'll go, but then he changes his mind and says that he won't...he says he'll go but won't participate...he says he'll go, but he won't pay or allow the insurance to cover...blah, blah, blah...

I guess my efforts to deal with the non-counseling stuff is probably a series of attempts to sneak in the back door while he's busy minding his barricade and moat at the front door of the counseling issue. And I do want to show him I'm willing and able to do REAL work on this marraige, that I CAN change....not to mention that if things were in anyway better around here as to EN's and LB's etc, he may feel safe enough to take the barricade down. I'm in "save my marraige seige mode"...LOL!!

When I give up, and have no more hope, I'll be done. I know myself well enough that I can say that with some certainty...hell for me will consist of an eternity of being forced to try to solve hopeless situations...so I'm in a very reflective space trying to assess just how hopeful I can realistically be about this marraige...

Now on to info that I suspected, but was definitely confirmed today....courtesy of the State of Hell-i-nois Department of Child and Family Services....

He has 2 sons from previous marraige...these boys are seriously messed up....angry, violent, completely out-of-control, especially the older one who is 13 and currently incarcerated in a treatment facility due to violence comitted repeatedly against others, especially the mother. Younger boy is 9 and showing definite signs that he is headed the same direction.....

There have been allegations of domestic violence, emotional and physical abuse, and sexual abuse that allegedly happened during the marraige...

All that said, H has not had any visitation or contact in anyway whatsoever with these boys for at least 7-8 years since the divorce, at her request....

Bad, yes, but the silver-lining in this is the fact that if he wasn't there, damage done to those kids since the D is not his fault....he takes full responsibility for things that happened during the M...BTW....

State of Hell-i-nois ordered complete individual and family psychological and social assessments for each family member, H included, to formulate a treatment plan....

Man, this is long!! But it feels good to get it out!!

I told H that I wanted to see what the professionals had to say about him and his boys, before I could completely feel good about staying in my marraige....I've had my suspicions all along, but I'm not a professional anything, and I'm too close to the situation....etc....and my piddly little gripes, even if real to me, pale in comparison to this.....

State of Hell-i-nois says this about my H....no obvious pathologies psychologically...nothing that would prevent him from providing a safe environment for his boys, although parenting help would obviously be indicated. I'm assuming that by "parenting help" they are saying classes and some pretty serious therapy....and yup I agree...this tells me that my H is not a lost cause, and all is not hopeless....I had concerns in this area...

The mother has issues of her own, is refusing to face them, and is refusing to see how this is affecting her sons. She is very close to losing custody of the younger, older already is a ward of the state.....I keep telling Hubby this...if mom is that bad, well, buddy...you are all those boys have got....and you gotta step up to the plate NOW...

I've also said this, "If you won't do this for your children, I hold no illusions that you will do anything for me."

And, "If you won't do this for you, or me, for God's sake...do it for those boys! You helped make them, now do the right thing!"

The little voice inside my head says...dammit, man, face reality, take responsibility, and YOU fix what YOU broke!!

We have no children together, mine are grown and have lives of their own. I know that in this circumstance, everyone would recommend that I run like hell....just divorce and get on with my life...

But the way I see it, those 2 boys have no one to fight for them at all, and they are innocent. I've elected me to fight for them for now. My conscience will not allow me otherwise. If my marraige benefits and we can be happy, fine....I can get a better hubby by him choosing to be a better dad....This concept appears to be the ultimate "sneak in the back door!" LOL!! If not, I'll survive, but I don't know about those kids....

And sadly to say....I see these things because I can say...been there done that...whole truckload of t-shirts...what I put my kids through when in the throes of my methamphetamine addiction, and violent abusive relationships....the details are different, but our stories are much the same...I've been clean for 15+ years, and working on myself and helping my kids...this is a second nature to me now. I've spent 15 years "fixing what I broke".

I'm in no way perfect, I struggle daily, but I think that is part of the reason he chose me....he has done much work on himself already, but the prospect of dealing with this has him terrified. And I chose him because I saw a man that had made many, many mistakes, but was working on himself and would continue to do so...and I didn't know about the boys back then...only that they did exist, but he didn't see them at all...

I pray daily for the wisdom to know the difference between what I can change and what I can't...what I should influence and what I shouldn't....

I think the fear of facing these things with his sons at stake is a very big part of the reason he's dodging....it's just too overwhelming...then again, I may be wrong and he's just your average, run-of-the-mill selfish jerk....

And yes, if ya can't tell, I'm an INTJ personality type on a mission....LOL!!

If I'm remembering correctly...MB concepts are not designed to be of much help where serious issues such as these exist, and I think that this additional info changes things some....or a lot....but I'm willing to innovate, adjust, and tweak till the cows come home....I tell hubby often that if he wanted a stubborn, chronically optimistic woman, he chose wisely....LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ July 30, 2003, 06:37 AM: Message edited by: HelenWheels ]</small>

oh yeah.... what a day is right..... bump this for me tomorrow if I don't answer ok? If I stay at the computer any longer today my fingers are going to be permanently attached. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

C

Boy, Cerri! I know how that can be, too!

Baby steps, baby steps....progress not perfection... I've copied and pasted a post I just got done putting on another board..
kind of an update...the last few days, I've been able to get him to meet me in Intimate Conversation...less defensiveness which I'm attributing to positive report on himself (re:visiting his sons)that I mentioned above...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> **Helen runs into the room, arms wide open, babbling, "My people! I'm home!"**

Hello Roberta! Like others on this thread, I'm also a "crisis information/there's gotta be an explanation/how did I survive pre-internet" kinda gal....

Also I truly believe my H also has sex addiction tendencies...not yet addressed openly....plus I have the "added bonus" of being able to see it from the unique point of view of an addict....15+ yrs clean and recovering...

A couple of thoughts then I'll tell ya how I'm dealing with my H concerning this....

My #1 rule for myself when dealing with a possible unaddressed addiction...NEVER use any form of the word addict, addiction, etc. in a conversation unless the person you are talking to acknowledges their problem and uses those terms. It has served me very well, and here's why...

To be an "addict" still carries so much societal stigma....More folks than not still see it as a moral failing. The person's own view of what an "addict" is plays into this as well....and the stigma attached to sexual addictions is increased geometrically....we all know those words...pervert, sicko, etc...

OK-I am an addict. I have no problem saying that because I know this....An addict is not who I am, it's simply what I do...a descriptive word that communicates the idea of a certain set of behaviors to the listener...much the same as the words butcher, baker, candlestick-maker, etc.

Be sure to let your addict know that you can see it this way, too...an addict has enough guilt and shame to go around for everybody, at least at the beginning...to have people who profess to love them adding to that burden is not cool. Does have some value in a properly set-up and executed intervention setting, maybe....if ya gotta guilt 'em to treatment, ya gotta...

The pain of finding about his A is pretty damn close to the pain I felt when I finally faced myself and my addictive issues....and I've actually tried to figure out which is/was worse. Is that over-analytical or what?

The combined pains of facing addiction and infidelity must be massive....I think great big doses of empathy and compassion need to accompany accountability here....but not sympathy, or pity...

Even though I think my H has these issues....in my mind, I'm keeping that DJ (a judgement I'm pretty sure any addict in denial would see as disrespectful) LB to myself...and rather I'm focusing on encouraging self-discovery with gentle nudging...planting non-judgemental thought seeds....that I'm praying will root, grow and finally blossom in MC and IC, which I haven't gotten him to do yet...

These discussions, when he's feeling safe enough, have been centered around the concept of..."How do you/I/we deal with stress?" or "How do you/we/I deal with uncomfortable/intense emotion?"

He has mentioned a previous gambling problem, red flag there! Admits that if available or feasable, he has used sex for that, too....Rut roh....

But...the word addict, addiction, or any word that could be seen as judgemental (ie:bad or wrong)has not been used....for now our working definition is this...we are looking at things we do to cope with how we feel....nothing more...and determining if these behaviors benefit ourselves or our marraige...

The sex approach to stress relief is not desirable in any comitted R that I'm in....obviously...and I can see times where he has even used sex with me to that end....not always a bad thing, BTW, and definitely more acceptable than OW'en and multiple D-Days, for sure.....

I stumbled upon this softer, gentler approach while frantically searching for ways to get by his oppositional, defiant, defensive and argumentative stance...

In his mind, all he has to do to fix this is to stop doing it! OK-sure, honey, that'll work just fine and that makes me feel sooooo secure....NOT!!

I've been pleasantly surprised at his receptivity to looking at marital and personal issues in this fashion....maybe it would work for someone else here....

Link to entire thread...over on Recovery Board </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thought, comments, 2x4's? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Helen

P.S. I'm also seeing that transferring this softer, gentler approach to other communications could serve me well...maybe I'm on to something here...ok...I can exchange the choke collar for a velvet bit....having him bucking all the way to the water I'd like him to drink from is too frustrating...wow! That's a really bad mixed metaphor! LOL!!

<small>[ July 31, 2003, 06:24 AM: Message edited by: HelenWheels ]</small>