Three years ago my husband fell in love with a coworker and had an affair. After two separations, two years of counseling and a lot of soul-searching, we have built the most unbelieveable relationship I could ever imagine. Our kids tell us we are like honeymooners.

Or so I thought.

I started getting those "feelings" a few days ago, and this time, I addressed them right away. He confirmed what I suspected. He has an "infatuation" with a woman. And while nothing physical has happened yet (he says) there have been "discussions" about it happening. He can't get her out of his mind.

He is distraught, but not because I know, but rather, that this keeps happening in himself. He wonders if he is addicted to the newness of a relationship--the excitement, wonder, etc. And he wonders if it would be good to go ahead with this relationship and let it run its course so he can realize that the wonderment might finally cease.

I can't go through this again. Even though he claims that he wants to heal himself and that he is certain this time (unlike the first time) that he wants to be with me. He says he couldn't want for a more "perfect" wife. Why, then isn't that enough?

I am sick, sick, sick.

I want to scream at him. On the other hand, when this happened the first time, we said he needed to tell me if we were ever at that point again. He did. I can't blast him for his honesty or he will never tell me again.

He is seeing a counselor tomorrow. This was his idea. Has anyone been through this? Should I cut my losses now and end this maddness? I don't think I could ever trust again.

SusanBT,
Though I am the WS in my situ, I can understand where you coming from with this roller coaster your currently on.

Take care of yourself right now (and your children if you have any). Seek the replies from posters like: john39, Zorweb, Cerri, TooMuchCoffeMan, RandyRail, and others. They are very experienced and can give better advice than I.

God Bless and Good Luck.
TTSMM

Susan,

I'm sure you feel like you were just socked in the stomach. I don't blame you for feeling absolute horror at the idea of going through this again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He has an "infatuation" with a woman. And while nothing physical has happened yet (he says) there have been "discussions" about it happening. He can't get her out of his mind.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He's back in the fog.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He is distraught, but not because I know, but rather, that this keeps happening in himself. He wonders if he is addicted to the newness of a relationship--the excitement, wonder, etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is a real chemistry to infatuation, and it can be very addictive for some people. Here's how one article described it:

When two people are attracted to each other, a virtual explosion of adrenaline-like nuerochemicals gush forth. Fireworks explode and we see stars. PEA or phenylethylamine is a chemical that speeds up the flow of information between nerve cells.

Also, involved in chemistry are dopamine and norepinephrine, chemical cousins of amphetamines. Dopamine makes us feel good and norepinephrine stimulates the production of adrenaline. It makes our heart race!

These three chemicals combine to give us infatuation or "chemistry."

All affairs are addicting, but to be addicted to affairs is probably pretty serious and I'm glad your husband is seeking counseling. Supposedly these chemicals wear off after a while, that's why even a loving relationship doesn't have the "high" of those chemically induced infatuations. It's undoubtedly very scary for you to even consider staying with someone who you are afraid might have a pattern of affair in the future, and I think you should.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And he wonders if it would be good to go ahead with this relationship and let it run its course so he can realize that the wonderment might finally cease.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is fog talk....and dangerous fog talk at that. It's the mantra of all cake eaters who wish to have that little taste of infatuation and still be able to have a marriage. Please do not buy into this or sanction this in any way. It won't make things better, it will make things much much worse. If he insists on this and is determined to have it....Please go straight to Plan B. If your marriage is as good as it sounds, you are already meeting needs and not LBing and a Plan A would just allow him to have the best of all worlds. Don't let anyone talk you into doing one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He says he couldn't want for a more "perfect" wife. Why, then isn't that enough?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H said the same thing. It isn't enough because some men are very selfish and they are used to getting everything they want whenever they want it. It is a sign of immaturity and a very unhealthy lack of boundaries and moral guidelines. He has some personal work to do....and if he insists on seeing this other woman, it should be one of the conditions of recovery....individual counseling possibly for sex addiction. Does he have an issues with porn at all?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am sick, sick, sick.

I want to scream at him. On the other hand, when this happened the first time, we said he needed to tell me if we were ever at that point again. He did. I can't blast him for his honesty or he will never tell me again.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This decision is up to you Susan. If he is willing to get counseling and stop all contact and you want to go on, I agree, not blasting him is a good idea. It's important if you're considering staying married that you make it safe to be honest. But you also need to be honest about your feelings....without blasting of course. Do tell him about how devasted you are. Honesty goes both ways. Don't hold back your feelings to protect him, but express them with no LBs. I feel______about________.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He is seeing a counselor tomorrow. This was his idea. Has anyone been through this? Should I cut my losses now and end this maddness? I don't think I could ever trust again. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can't answer this for you. My husband had two known A's.....but they were about 15 years apart. He had many of the qualities that your husband possesses, but after alot of pain and discovery, we have made it into recovery. The innocence I had before the A's and the blind trust is gone forever...but that isn't as tragic as it sounds. I am beginning to trust him again. He has worked very hard. Why don't you wait and see what the counselor has to say.

hugs

<small>[ July 24, 2003, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

I don't have much to say. He has to find out exactly why he keeps doing this in order to prevent it, and your recovery process obviously did not get him there.

What did your affair recovery process look like the first time? Have you read "Suviving an Affair "by Harley or "Torn Asunder", by Carder?
Was your recovery process similar to the one in SAA?

Dear Susan,

I'm so sorry that you are going through this. I've been through it too, only I didn't get a straight answer when I asked if he were involved again. He didn't tell me and then ended up repeating the behavior over and over until Jan. of this year when he told me that he was leaving me for another. They had only been together for 2 1/2 weeks and they were madly in love...can you imagine....two smart professional people acting like adolescents. That is the key word...adolescents.

There are different stages of development that we go through as children. There are also many wounds that we receive as a result of being raised by imperfect humans. That can cause this type of behavior because it creates someone with a big hole in their heart and they can't seem to fill it. That hole is caused by their arrested development at some point...usually adolescence! They will suck their partner/spouse dry emotionally because that hole cannot be filled by another person, BUT THEY ARE CONVINCED THAT SOMEONE OUT THERE CAN FILL THAT HOLE....so they keep trying to find that someone. One thing that temporarily fills this hole for some is admiration. My H's need for admiration and the deepness of his hole allowed him to "reward" basically any woman who admired him with his attention and sex. He didn't pursue ANY of these women until they expressed admiration to him. He did flirt mildly, but that was the extent of it until he was involved with someone. He also must have sent out vibes that said, "I'm married, but not that married." He needed that hole filled so badly that it felt impossible to survive without trying to fill it. His efforts were always temporary however, so he always felt empty.

Now that he is in therapy and aware of his empty hole, he has found out that his type of hole can only be filled with spiritual pursuits. Mind you, we are Christians, but this isn't a call to Christianity, it's a call to a spiritual pursuit.

Often these type of men have underlying male depression, but it is often missed by doctors because it is not manifested in the same way that women show their depression. An excellent book on this is Terrence Real's book called I Don't Want To Talk About It. This is a VERY good book and my H highly recommends it for all men, let alone the ones with problems similar to his. There is even a men's group based on it that he is going to look into.

Another men's movement that has been helpful for my H is called The Mankind Project. He attended a New Warrior Weekend and it was transformational. You can find more information at www.mkp.org . It is a call to integrity. It gives men the support and tools that they need to become men of integrity.

Transformational....another key word. For these type of people, behavioral therapy is not that effective. They need to do deep shadow work and deal with the deep childhood issues that they have in order to understand and comfort that wounded child. This is one of the things that they deal with in the New Warrior Weekend. We have also found therapists that started with us by having us find our Enneagram types. My H is a Type Four and when we read about his type we were floored. It described the hole and the longing and emptiness that he has always felt even when we were happy as a couple! I had no idea that he was in such turmoil his entire life. We had a very good marriage!! Mine is the Type One, the Perfectionist. Although I abandoned my perfectionist ways for the most part years ago, I still struggle with the inner critic thay my type has. It was a eye-opener for me.

Once we knew our types, then our therapists had what they needed to suggest a healing path for us and it's been nothing short of miraculous! I would highly recommend this type of therapy. It can change your perspective on every part of your life. Basically, your Enneagram type is the strategy you formed to survive your growing up years combined with the basic part of your personality that you were born with. It is "your box" that you have found yourself in as an adult. Now, as a child, these strategies worked pretty well for you, but now they often don't and you need to find new, improved ones. Unfortunately most people rarely have the observational skills to realize that they need to change and instead they take the same set of skills on to a new partner. Funny, but it doesn't work then either...hmmmmm! After a few tries, a person usually figures out that they need to make some changes. This personality assessment, the Enneagram, gives them the tools to do it.

There is a test in my signature line. It's a great starting place to see WHY your H has these tendencies. If he had only one affair and it was a fluke, that is different. That is something a Type One might possibly do. If it happens again, or if he even is deeply tempted again, then there is something else going on. Be thankful that you caught it before it moved on to a full blown affair. Once he is on that path it is going to be very hard for him to break the habit.

I have a belief that my H and I serve a greater purpose than just hanging out here on earth doing all of the stuff that partners do. I believe that we are together to help each other heal our childhood wounds. I believed it from the time I married him at 17 years old. I still believe it now and that's why I'm still with him. Finally, we have the tools to heal!

Take care!

Stillwed

<small>[ July 25, 2003, 02:13 PM: Message edited by: stillwed ]</small>

You all are amazing. I had no idea that so many wonderful, supportive people would be so willing to help me. You've all given me so many things to digest. I've actually been out of town with my h for the past two days so I hadn't checked in. I will spend some time now looking over everything you have all suggested.

I do think that this this was the beginning of an affair and he has been truthful about that. He has been pretty forthright about the things I ask him about. And yes, we do have kids--6 in all, a blended family. Our youngest is 11. We both married at 18 and had our first at 19. The OW has kids too. She's in your basic loveless marriage. (yeah right, whatever.)

He went to the counselor who did tell him to cool it with her. He was quick to ascertain that my husband had some unmet emotional needs from childhood. Nothing none of you don't already know, apparently!

Deciding on a plan has been difficult. I insist on NO CONTACT. The last time we went through this, it was next to impossible. He was in love with the OW and would cry for her. It was extremely painful for me. We separated twice because I just told him to go to her if it was that hard to be without her. But our marriage is VERY different now than it was then (or so I thought. I am stronger too. Last time it took nearly a year for him to actually end it. Part of that was her obsessionalality; the other And the other part was that I didn't tell him to leave if he didn't stop it. I just kept thinking it was the last call....

This time he is asking me for some kind of compromise. That they can remain friends or something, or worse, let him see her to run the course of it (within an open marriage, I presume, we have some friends who do this), or WHATEVER.

NO WAY. I lived through that hell and cannot again. I've said this before.

Herein lies the central issue: What kind of guy would even CONSIDER asking his wife to compromise on this, knowing that it would cause her tremendous pain??? Answer: a narcissist. Right? Are there any other explanations? I am at the end of my rope. I think this may be a character issue that can't be fixed in the context of this marriage. Do any of you disagree? (Please?) Hugs to all of you....
Susan

Susan:

One word answer. Fog.

He is deeply in it. Plan A, right now. Get him to do a no contact letter. Right now. There is no compromise. Zip, nada, zilch, zero, none. Which of those words does he not understand?

Anything that detracts from the marriage and your relationship is a BAD thing. So you do not need to compromise on something that is bad and hurtful.

Have you read Surviving an Affair and His Needs/Her Needs? If not, get them immediately (click on the Bookstore link at the top of this page). If possible, read them together. Follow instructions, save marriage. (The rosy scenario.)

Counseling is a great idea, and it is a wonderful first step. But it is only a first step.

No contact. It is your right, insist on it.

Godspeed to you both,
STL

Susan,

Yes, I wish I didn't agree, but narcissism is definitely one possibility. There is a guy over on the EN board who immediately caught the narcissitic characteristics of my husband. His name is wiffty if you want to get some insight into that. It's scary, because there is a sense of "entitlement" and lack of accountability that seems to go along with that. They honestly believe that they "should" be able to do the things they do and there is something special about them that makes them able to operate outside of normal marital boundaries. No how. No way. Don't go there. I'm certain you won't, but like me, you just can't understand that way of thinking.

STL is saying Plan A, but I to be honest.....I wouldn't. You've already done your Plan A. He's happy. He's says you're the perfect wife....he just wants what he wants. Unless he agrees to NC....I say you go straight to Plan B. Cerri will be back on Monday.....run this scenario past her and see what she says.

Susan:

I agree with St*rfish. If he will not agree to no contact ... right now, immediately go to Plan B. No compromise whatsoever. Twice burned and all that...

And if he squawks at that -- well there is Plan D as well. It is your choice: you have every obligation to protect yourself and your children first; and your marriage only if you feel you are up to it emotinonally or are comfortable that he is honestly willing to resolve his problems.

Godspeed,
STL

We are supposed to finish our "no contact" talk tomorrow. I know he is clear on this. He needs to look inside himself. If he is capable of doing so. I just wish I could understand this.

On the one hand, this was very early on in the affair. Last time he was head over heels in love. The first kiss was the other day. It hasn't been going on for months on end. So if things are SO PERFECT, why would he risk it all (family, marriage, and even job complications) for this? I struggle to understand.

Regarding Plan B, it may be my only option. I told him that staying together through this was only acceptable if there is NO contact but not because I am forcing it on him, but rather, because he knows it would kill me and loves me enough not to do that. If he can't do that, it us plain old narcissism.

It would seem that with Plan B he can eat his cake but can come back to it when he's done. Am I understanding this right? That is exactly what he wants, I suspect. He would just love this to run its course with or without me and come back when it's over. If, of course, he hasn't just stumbled over his true soulmate...
Susan

It would seem that with Plan B he can eat his cake but can come back to it when he's done. Am I understanding this right? That is exactly what he wants, I suspect. He would just love this to run its course with or without me and come back when it's over. If, of course, he hasn't just stumbled over his true soulmate...

Ya know Susan!!! I hadn't even looked at it that way.....but you know what? I think you are right on the money!! It's going to have to be No contact or Plan D, because you are so correct, he can just use the B to his advantage!! This is so crazy.

Susan:

Plan B with no contact might work. The purpose of Plan B is to preserve what feelings you have for your spouse and to provide yourself with a layer of protection.

If he violates the no contact with the OW, then you can distance yourself further with Plan D.

In any case, protect yourself emotionally. It should go further than just the Plan B, of course. He needs professional psychological help if it appears he has narcissistic tendencies, and that should be part of the Plan B as well. No get help, hit the highway.

Godspeed to you both,
STL

Dear Susan,

There is an excellent new book on surviving life with a narcissist called Why is it Always About You? Saving Yourself From the Narcissists in Your Life by Sandy Hotchkiss, LCSW. I haven't finished reading it yet, but it is hopeful and I truly believe that in a person ready for change that even narcissistic behavior can run it's course. Most narcissists never change, I know, but my H is a self confessed narcissist and he is truly changing! He has used therapy, the men's group I mentioned in my other post, reading, prayer, you name it. The man is ready for change and that is the key. If your H is not ready for change, then maybe you had better move on with your kids, but if he is, there is HOPE!

Stillwed

P.S. I do agree that you have to insist on NC. Even in my situation, I went immediately to that. H didn't even expect anything less.

Susan,

Jumping in late with a hug.

My H's affair was a long time ago but he has remained "friends" out of fear that he will be exposed. In his case, it has worked...in that he hasn't gone back to EA or PA that I'm aware of. The problem is that they have a dirty little secret, and I don't think we will truly move on until she knows that I know everything and that H and I are committed to each other.

She's a co-worker. H is leaving his job today. Against my better judgment, and under the watch of the MC, I agreed to let him fade away. If she contacts him after today, then we move to NC letter/e-mail/phone call. That's our deal. In the meantime, we're in counseling (is that Plan C?) and otherwise are addressing many of the issues that make this site so relevant to me. Interestingly, my H is a lot like Stillwed's...I think the A had very little to do with me or our marriage, and everything to do with H and his big empty hole. Stillwed had great insight for me on my thread too!

I think STL and stillwed have some great advice up there for you. I just wanted to tell you I'm rooting for you.

Susan,

I do have to tell you one other thing. People with narcissistic spouses were usually attracted to them for a reason and that reason is because of the narcissistic wound that they themselves possess. I know that I have one. My father was very narcissistic. I thought that I was choosing a spouse who was his complete opposite! How little I knew. In fact, my H carried the same deep narcissist wound and tendencies within himself. I carried them too, but as I matured I abandoned most of those those tendencies. My H on the other hand was completely absorbed by them, but it was still veiled in many ways.

So, if you leave this man, you may find yourself with another narcissist. You have to heal your deep wound before you seek another spouse or the cycle is very likely to continue. So, even if you do leave him, be sure to do the hard work for yourself!

Stillwed

<small>[ July 27, 2003, 05:19 PM: Message edited by: stillwed ]</small>

Thanks for the recommendation on the book on narcissism. Know what? He thinks that is what he is too. He is still committed to working on himself through counseling. I just wish he could go everyday. (Actually an inpatient arrangement would be better but I suspect I would somehow be the one in the straightjacket!) I have often wondered why I chose a man like this. I have some insight now, but I am hoping I am stronger now than I was then. I need to be.

Yesterday he had a narcissistic request. He wanted to spend a day with the OW. He felt it would help him to clarify what he needed to do and help him to have it "run its course." On the surface, it seems like a sadistic request. I decided to use it to my advantage.

The biggest problem with the first affair was that his commitment to NC was really not there. To add injury to insult, she was a borderline (emotionally unstable) and didn't heed ANY requests he made, regardless. So I was continuouly tortured as she intruded, pulled on his heartstrings, his pining for her, and my frustration with his total inability/unwillingness to really put an end to it.

SO, I said sure, go ahead. He just needed to tell me when he returned if we were going to use Plan A or B. I have made it clear that with Plan A, he was ONLY to choose this option if he was genuine in his desire to go ahead with our marriage and genuine in his desire to stop hurting me. It could not be because I was "making him." With Plan B, I made it very clear that I would be similarly preparing myself to move on. I WOULD be dating and looking at various options to find happiness in my life. I would NOT be here sitting waiting for my wayward husband to come home so that I can be tortured again in the future. He can come home when she is GONE and he is committed to keeping her out of our lives and most importantly to heal the parts of his character that create this.

As I write this, he is with her. I've thrown up twice and there is nothing in my stomach. But I need closure. We've done nothing but sit on the bed in heavy conversation and tears for nearly a week. This has to stop, one way or another.

MEBB, good luck to you. Stopping contact was the most difficult thing about this the first time around. It was as though she kept passing him a "hit" of a powerful mind-altering drug. Even if there was no future in the relationship, there was something sustaining about even a little bit of contact. Of course, it was destructive to us and absolute torture for me. I hope he is ready for total abstainance!
Thanks guys, I'll let you know.
Hugs,

Susan:

Plan B, now ... write the letter and give it to him! Tell him to find a place to live, as he cannot stay there according to Plan B.

There are good examples of Plan B letters around for you to modify to your tastes. Let him know that Plan B leaves him a very, very short window of opportunity before Plan D.

I am always sorry to see a marriage get to this stage. But you have every right (and obligation) to protect yourself and your children.

Godspeed,
STL

Susan,

I wish I could smack him up side the head for you! I am just so angry sitting here thinking that he thinks that he can leave you hanging and still let his relationship with her "run it's course." Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

So, did he come home from being with her? What happened? Please update us when you can. Please don't feel like you are alone in this because you aren't. We're here. I'm so sorry that you are going through this because of his emotional instability.

Stillwed

Yes, he came home from his big day with her. They talked all day, ran around doing errands and, eventually, ended it. Apparently both were in tears. THEY discussed how to handle it. He told her that I had given him the option of leaving and going to her or staying without ever contacting her again.
He wants to go with Plan A. Now, can it work? We'll see.
What I now have is a man who claims to be totally committed to me, has supposedly said goodbye to her, but who is an emotional wreck. I told him I would support his grief. But seeing how we've been down this EXACT road before, I am also angry. Which is something I am keeping to myself. Last time he missed her so much, sulked around so much that I finally said go to her. He did. It lasted three days.
This is so messed up (not my choice of words, but I don't want to offend anyone).
Who is giving ME emotional support? Not him. You guys are, for which I am eternally grateful.

Well I'm glad that he has sort of come to his senses. I hope that he can get his act together for the sake of you and your children. By the way, you don't have to support his grief. Just don't do it. Be everything you should be as a wife and lover to him, but let him deal with his own grief. That is not your problem. He should however, help you deal with yours because he brought this to the marriage. You did not.

I would recommend that you reread my earlier post about him getting help. If I were you there is no way I would go through this recovery again without him truly finding healing for himself. Otherwise he will never be strong enough to uphold his own values regarding cheating. That was my deal this time with my H; get the help you need to find your own happiness or it's over. We are beautiful together, but if he isn't happy with himself then it just doesn't last!

He is now on meds for a low level of depression. No doctor every suspected it with him. It wasn't until all of this was out in the open and he didn't have any more excuses for his unhappiness or any more ways to self-medicate it that he wanted to find true healing. Now, the first doc that saw him told him that he has probably been depressed for his entire life and may be depressed for the rest of it too. He is on Wellbutrin now and the difference is amazing.

Him really getting healed is what might make this worth your time and pain. I hope he'll do the work!

Stillwed