Danish,

IF you impliment Plan B, the letter to your MIL and FIL is vital. Yes you write them and tell them you still love your husband, but that until no contact, you must protect yourself from more pain. Do say you don't want a divorce. Plan B is designed to leave the door open.....not close it. And if you do decide. I'd like you to post on the GQII board. Ask Mortarman for help....he is the best Plan B man on the site I think. Although Orchid and Peppeband are wonderful too.

I'm just buzzing around your head. I can tell how much you love your husband. I truly believe that if you had to do a Plan A for years, you probably are strong enough to....but it wouldn't benefit you to. It would turn you into the lovliest Danish doormat there is. Timing is important, there is no question of that. And truly, the time is overdue...so don't wait too much longer okay?

I wanted to leave this for you to review from the main site about Plan B:

Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the wayward spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.

Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B.

Since plan B (and plan A, for that matter), is extremely stressful for the betrayed spouse, I usually recommend that he or she ask a physician to prescribe anti-depressant medication to be taken throughout the crisis. This not only greatly reduces the suffering of the betrayed spouse, but it also helps keep a clear head at a time when patience and wise decisions are crucial. Anti-depressant medication does not numb the betrayed spouse to the crisis, it actually helps raise him or her above emotional reactions that would otherwise prevent clear-headed thinking. Why suffer and and make poor choices when anti-depressant medication can help ease your pain and improve your concentration in this time of unprecedented crisis?

While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed. The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward s pouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder."

As it turns out, most affairs end within six months of their seeing the light of day (being revealed to their family and friends), and almost all affairs end without leading to marriage. Even those few that end in marriage have only a 25% rate of success. That's because affairs are based on dishonesty and thoughtlessness for the feelings of others. That same dishonesty and thoughtlessness eventually turns on the lovers themselves, and the affair is destroyed by those same flaws that made it possible in the first place. What drives affairs is passion, not commitment, and once the passion wanes, there is nothing to help the lovers restore their passion. Marriage, on the other hand, especially with children, has many factors that motivate couples to restore their passion for each other after passion has waned. So when passion is gone from an affair, a wayward spouse is usually motivated to return to the betrayed spouse by all of these other factors. For most, it's a logical choice.

But what about marital separation when an affair is not the issue. In your letter, you did not indicate why you had separated. It may have been for reasons other than infidelity.

In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. But other situations such as physical and verbal abuse, where one spouse's mental or physical safety is as risk, are also grounds for separation. As in the case of infidelity, if one spouse is abusive, I often recommend plan A first, where, through negotiation (without anger, disrespect or demands), an attempt is made to overcome the abuse without separating.

But in some cases, the safety risks are so great that plan B should be implemented immediately, with no time for plan A. In these cases, treatment for the abusive habit must take place during separation, and some evidence must exist that the risk has been greatly reduced, or completely eliminated, before the spouses should return to each other. Then, after being together again, the formerly abusive spouse should be held accountable by others for his or her behavior to assure the other spouse's safety.

In other cases, such as annoying behavior or failure to meet important emotional needs, where thoughtlessness does not reach the level of physical or mental abuse, plan A should be given quite a bit of time and effort before resorting to plan B. Remember, plan A is negotiating (without anger, disrespect or demands) to eliminate the annoying behavior or improve the meeting of emotional needs. A blanket agreement between spouses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward eliminating these thoughtless acts, and can also help couples learn to meet each other's needs with enthusiasm. But without that policy, couples often find that they cannot get anywhere with each other through negotiation, and sometimes separation can eventually lead to mutual recognition that they need the Policy of Joint Agreement to help them resolve conflicts.

But, as I mentioned earlier, the risks of separation are great. It should be used only as a last resort to help resolve a fatal flaw in marriage. Once separated, couples often never do reconcile, remaining separated for life, or they eventually divorce. A fact unknown to many is that fifteen to twenty percent of all married couples end their lives permanently separated. These, who are not included in divorce statistics, usually feel that they should not legally divorce for religious reasons. But for most practical purposes, they are as divorced as those legally divorced. Their separation did not create the opportunity for reconciliation, but rather, created an even higher barrier between spouses.

So whenever spouses separate, I usually encourage a plan that moves them toward eventual reconciliation. From your letter, it sounds as if you are moving in that direction, and you simply need to know when it would be the right time to move back together. And you may want to know more about full marital recovery after you have ended your separation.

The four rules to recovery that I recommend after an affair are marital rules that every couple should be following. So they should form the basis for any plan for recovery after a separation. Since the four rules cover every conceivable problem that married couples face, they would address the issue that led to your separation. If you were to follow these four rules as part of your plan for recovery, I guarantee you that you will not only eliminate the problems that led you to separate, but you will also resolve many other conflicts that have prevented you from having a successful marriage.

<small>[ August 01, 2003, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Danish,

I saw this post that cerri made to hopeful98 who is in a similar position to yours. I don't want to keep bombarding you with stuff...but I did want to share it with you because both of you seem to be in the same place:

Really? I guess I'm just scared that Plan B will really drive him away.

First, NO ONE wants to do Plan B. Ever. That's normal. We all have exactly the same fears, they just manifest a little differently depending on the situation.

While we have even the tiniest spark of feeling for our spouse we want to hang in there fighting for the R and showing that we can be "good enough." Of course, our ability to do a good Plan A diminishes as time goes on and our LBnk drains. And then the minute those feelings are gone (and for women especially that can happen in a heartbeat) we see no reason to Plan B. Either way, staying too long in Plan A is destructive.

Second..... he's already gone. You're not pushing him away, you are protecting you from having to deal on a day to day basis with his thoughtless and cruel behavior.

Isn't the Plan B letter about making him decide about his M or this OW?

Not at all. The Plan B letter says these things (I just happen to keep the list handy )

• I love you.
• I married you for life. I want to stay married to you
• I am willing to do what it takes to be the spouse you've always wanted and to address the things I did wrong in the marriage.
• The affair/neglect/abuse is so painful for me that it will destroy the love I have for you. In order to protect those feelings I must end all contact with you.
• As soon as the affair/neglect/abuse is over I would love to talk with you about our future.
• Until that time please respect my wish for no contact whatsoever
• In an emergency you can reach me through______.
• Arrangements for seeing children and handling finances are_____.
~~~~

It's really not about him at all. It's about you and your need to completely remove yourself from a situation which is painful. AND very importantly, it leaves the door open for reconciliation as soon as the affair is over.

How can I ask him to make that choice when it's obvious that he wants OW? Perhaps I haven't understood Plan B correctly.

You're not asking him to make a choice. You are telling him that you are making a choice to protect you and the feelings you still have for him.

The very fact that he's making it obvious that he wants her is the same reason you need Plan B.

Danish.

I totally agree with Star*fish advice but if you don't want to implement Plan B, the consider doing carolkh's 180 degree plan that worked for her. If you are interested in reading her success story then click on the following link: Hey CarolKH... can you elaborate on your story? .

Keep yourself busy with activities and people that enrich your life, and I beseech you to not become a recluse because of what's happening in your marriage. If you continue living your life to the fullest, you become an attractive person not only to others but very possibly to your WH as well. So please make every effort to continue making your life the best it can be.

<small>[ August 02, 2003, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Danish,

Inspite of what I have advised you, I would really like you to know one thing: There aren't many people on this board who could actually do a "lostva". I can see why her story is inspirational to you.....because it reminds me of you. You have the kind of calm grace that she has. I still believe that an indefinite Plan A opens you and others to a great deal of sacrifice and often more pain, and works out for only a small few (but there are a few), and I can also feel that you do not feel emotionally ready for a different course. I feel, and I think we probably agree on this, that this affair will have to run it's course no matter which plan you choose. It seems perfect to him now, but it will undoubtedly sour and fail (how long that will take, I don't know....but I think a Plan A does lengthen that time). Plan A would probably fail completely in a circumstance like this UNLESS the person is strong enough, like lostva....to never ever LB in the face of extreme rejection and pain over a long period of time. It is a herculean effort.....but who am I to say that you are not "up" to it....I can't, I wouldn't. In the end you must march to your own drum. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I will always think the world of you.

Hi there - Queen, Ginger, Hearbroken, Star*, Coffeeman - Thank you all!

I was in the middle of a VERY long response to each of you late last night, when suddently my internet connection was cut off - Arrrggghhh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

It's late again here in Denmark - 1.50 AM - and I'm on my way to hit the pillows. Just wanted to say that I have read ALL the basics and Q&A's here at MB, read all the "notable posts" - I've read SAA and I read EVERY thread here... I want to learn every aspect of infidelity known to man - yet, not two affairs are the same and what works for one M might be a shot in the dark for others.

You are so right, Bright Shining Star* that my husbands affair will have to run it's course and I'm well aware of that.
I just want to be an option worth considering for my WH before I go to Plan B (and I will - when the timing is right for me!) I will feel good in the process of "charming" him and no matter what the outcome will be, I'll pad myself on the shoulder knowing that I did the best Plan A I could.

Your help and support and your kind words are very much appreciated - and I hope you'll be here for me in the future. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'll try to reply to others more. I'm usually more of a Giver than a Taker but not lately, I'm afraid.

Hi Danish

I was out of town for a couple of days.
Every one here has such good solid advise for you there is nothing I could say or add to it so I will just say hello and how are you today? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hej Danish!,

How is the charming him going? What are you doing? Have you read the 180 degrees? I think you are on the right track, don´t lose faith and hope though. One day is an up and another day is a down. When you have a down day, look after yourself, talk to family and friends, a therapist, work out to look and feel good...

On the up days straighten that back of yours, with your chin up to the sky and SHINE, so that when and if your WH sees you he´ll be saying to himself " What the... has happened to my wife?" He´ll begin to get interested, he´s a man.

Read Lulus post in this section on page 8 and Johnh39´s reply to her. Amazing perception of men! Helped me hope it will help you...

-queen-

Danish,
Have not heard from you in a couple of days thought I would stop by and say hello and hope all is ok.

Thanks, Queen and Ginger!

I'm so <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> at my WH these days!

Nothing new in the M situation I'm afraid but that is not why I am mad. Im mad at him because he never calls our son... S visited WH thursday last week and is going again saturday. In between visits WH never seem to be interested in S's everyday life - when I talk to WH on the phone he never tell me to say hello to S from him.
I'm unable to understand how a father can behave like this to his child <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

My son told me yesterday that he's embarassed that his dad lives with OW already, and he does not want his friends to know. Should I tell WH about these thoughts? S don't tell him... I think he's afraid he'll loose his dad completely.

Hi Danish,

Sorry to hear that he is being a lousy dad. How did he use to be a father, you know, when he was not in the fog.

Don´t you think it is because he is 1) in the fog, 2) feeling guilt (my WH did not want to talk to anyone, parents, friends about what he has been up to for half a year)

Don´t you think it is because he cannot FACE the real world, it´s safer living in the fantasy world. You know what they say about being in love? That lovers could live on an open beach living on bread and water, because nothing else matters. That is FOG!

He WILL get back to normal, just do that Plan A and rock the OW into the real world by getting her to lovebuster your H, while he is cakeeating. When she starts LB´ing, he´ll start looking back at you and your son.

You have a long journey ahead of you, don´t give up hope. Nothing changes overnight.

Take care!

-queen-

HI Danish

Good to hear from you.
I am so sorry about what your H is doing.
I do not understand how a man or woman can abandon thier family.
This is the part of the A I hate.Adults being so selfish that they do not even care about the feeling of an inocent child.
I think you should tell your H what son says,he needs to know that his child is unhappy with the choice his father has made.Let WH know that this will effect S for a very long time probably well into his adult life.This is very damaging to a child when thier world is broken apart and WH needs to know this and start showing responsibility.

Sorry I did not mean to go on and on but this subject just gets me going <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

How are you holding up Danish?

Danish, this is exactly why....anger.....that it's so hard to maintain an indefinite Plan A. Eventually, the selfishness of the WS destroys the love. Don't let that happen to you okay? Go to B if you find that the anger is too overwhelming. I'm think of you.

It's very common for the WS to block out their parental responsibility. I know someone whose husband seemed like a fabulous father- he fell into an A and eventually moved to the other side of the US to be with OW. He has become completely disconnected from his kids. It is mind boggling. This is a man who never even wanted to hire a babysitter. Now he barely even calls his kids. I think he is overwhelmed with guilt and can't face them.

It's a weird thing when a spouse leaves. On one hand, the BS is tempted to cling to the kids. We don't want them exposed to OW and we don't want the kids to form some other kind of family with OW and WS, it's too painful. Reeling with the pain of betrayal, I felt like, let him lose everything.

On the other hand, why should a WS be let off the hook for their parenting duties? Parenting is very hard work. Once you have created a child, it's not an option to decide if you want to look after the child or not.

When my WS was considering leaving I struck a balance by determining a visitation schedule with him of every other weekend and once during the week. He didn't leave, but if he had I would have held him fiercely to that responsibility.

You can't make your WS call your son. However, there are several approaches you can take. One is to say, WS, son really misses you on the days you are not here. He would like to call you on such and such an evening between visits.

Or when he calls you, simply say quickly, before the call is over, oh, S wants to talk to you and hand the phone to your son.

Your WS is in the fog and is blocking out what's going on. He is most likely oblivious to the pain he is causing your son. His rationale is something like "Son is older, becoming more independant, doesn't need me like when he was a small boy"... "Son is only thinking about his friends, he is bored hanging out around me, he has more fun with his friends..." "Danish is such a good mother, she is taking care of everything and handling things so well..." "When I call and try to talk to son, he doesn't have much to say anyhow..." all these types of thoughts are avoidance and a way to rationalize his behavior.

My advice- hold your WS to his responsibilities! You haven't said if he is paying up his child support. Also- good question- how were his parenting skills prior to the A?

I think you can plan A for a while until you get sick of it and move to Plan B. So in the case of the car, come up with an excuse with why you need the car for yourself that week. Smile sweetly and say, "oh I'm so sorry I can't help you with that! Maybe the relatives from America can rent a car to tour in."

How is it going Danish?

Hi Danish,

Any updates? I'm worried about you.

I second that.
What is going on its been awhile since we have heard from you.

Thank your for the posts.

I haven't been able to do much lately. I suffer from episodic Cluster Headaches and now I'm two weeks into a period of these excrutiating and devastatingly painful attacks. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Thursday I'm going through a cone surgery for abnormal cervical cell changes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Life isn't too good to me these days - WH know what I'm going through... but no phonecalls or a nice word to comfort me.
I wonder if I can use that selfish man for anything in my life?

I have more I want to tell you. I'll get back to it later - a headache is on it's way...

Dear Danish:

I suffer from migraines too. It's hard to do anything when you can't even see straight. Flickering computers don't help.

I wonder if I can use that selfish man for anything in my life?

Have you thought about taking a self-defense course? He'd make a great dummy to take out all of your frustration and aggression... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Just kidding. Get better soon. We were really worried about you.

Thanks SAB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm quickly losing my for WH. Now I'm finally ready for Plan B. When I leave the hospital after my surgery I'll send him the letter.

WH does EVERYTHING together with OW. It hurts that he don't like me or need me at all.

I called him sunday and suggested a schedule for S to go to WH apartment. It's like this:
Thursday - monday - weekend - thursday - monday - weekend....
I think I was extremely fair to him.
Because I'm going through surgery tomorrow (a thursday) I called today and asked if S could go to my parents and spend tomorrow night there together with me. It's right next to S's school and a lot easier for him... and S wanted it that way because he also wants to see if I'm ok.
WH said NO.

I want full custody so badly! Will that ruin any attempt to get my M back - I guess the answer is yes???

Danish,

I don't think of full custody as hurting your chances....think about it...if he can't have his son on his terms, seems like that's more not less reason to come home. I'd go for full custody. Post your letter before you send it okay? If you would rather....please at least send to my email. starfish4729@hotmail.com

<small>[ August 20, 2003, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

HI Danish
I have missed you so.
I am so sorry to hear about all that is going on in your life.
I am so sorry to hear of your health problems.
You are in my prayers and thoughts always.
You need to do what is right for your S and if that means full custody than you should go for it.You are so kind all ways concerned of WH happiness.Please Danish begin to think of your happiness, it is time for that.
Take care I will talk to you soon.