Just an update - nothing special. - Marriage Builders® Forums

...I'm asking you to help me because your previous posts has been very helpful to me and b/c you know my story.

What options are left for me?
I didn't consider Plan B a good idea in my situation because WH is not trying to chose between me and OW. He has clearly chosen OW. Family and friends knows everything.

Please be honest with me! Is there ANY hope for me to win my WH back (I feel hope is lost) - and what is the best approach for me in order to do so?
I see it as my WH detatched from me when he was in Spain 9/4 - 15/5 and that now he don't like to be reminded of my existence. I wonder if it's best for me if I contact him more often. It is my impression (knowing my WH) that if I can manage to do the 180 or something similar to what LOSTVA did, it would probably work much better than Plan B would - if anything at all.

One little thing - only one need of his is he asking me to meet: help with the computer. It's in his home now and there are lots of things he don't know how to fix. He called me today to get my help but this is the only thing he needs me for - not enough to Plan B on... I think.

Today is our 14th anniversary. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
I thought of sending him 14 red roses but I didn't... OW would recieve them b/c WH is at work

[ January 06, 2004, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: Danish ]

Hi Danish,

How are you doing today on your anniversary? How are you managing? I know how difficult significant dates can be.

I'm wondering what is going to happen when the OW goes back to Australia. I'm wondering if you want to take the opportunity of your H needing your help learning the computer as a way of starting a Plan A with him then? The OW will be out of sight (if not out of mind) and not accesssible. He will be seeing you in a different light then having to be completely on his own for the first time. What do you think--a possibility?

Hi Danish

Me Ginger,
I know my name is not there but I thought you would not mind me popping in.I don't know what to say I am so sorry,first your birthday now your aniversary.Let me tell you that I think you are a wonderful person and you deserve a life of happiness.I will continue to pray that God will open you WH eyes.

Thanks a lot, SAB & Ginger! I appreciate your posts!

SAB - I like your idea about me helping WH with the computer stuff when OW is gone. I've been following your thread "Where do I go from here?" - how are YOU doing?
Ginger - I never mind you 'popping in' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> - I like to hear how you're doing and I'm happy that you pray for me & WH. Now there is a whole year before I have to through those sad birthday and anniversary emotions again.

I'm so obsessed with Lostva's story - I want to "adopt" her way of doing things because I feel it would be the best path for me - well, for almost anyone in my situation. Is it wrong of me and should I leave MB if I'm not doing it "by the book"?

Please don't leave I will miss you.

I think like anything you use the tools of MB the best you are able.Every situation is different and sometimes you take the best of several different aproaches and make it work for you.

Hang in there we are all here for you.

I think you have to go by your gut instinct as to what you think is best in your situation. You know your H best.

I think Plan A (meaning, you demonstrate a willingness to meet his emotional needs) is useful for reconnecting with your mate when distance has been created over the years. In your case, your WS created the distance when he went off on his trip and emotionally cut himself off from you. Before a WS can think about coming back, he has to visualize what he is coming back to.

Therefore your instincts might be right on target. If I recall correctly, after he came back, he made his plans for OW to come and he moved out into his parent's basement? So again, the disconnection continued and is now complete, especially since he is living with OW now.

Plan B is good for when a WS is cakeeating- carrying on the A, refusing to give it up, despite all the attempts of the BS to meet emotional needs.

I don't know that I can completely advise you properly. But, one strategy could be, to go over there, help him with the computer, and if you can stomach it, even interact with the OW. Get in her face, but in a really subtle way.

Some strategies-

-tell her that even though you are devastated when your H walked out, you had no idea he was unhappy- you don't hold it against her, and you of course want your WH to be happy, so that your son can have a stable environment. Tell her you want to work with her and your WS and that you will be able to heal and survive (as long as your WH meets his child care obligations- meaning pay child support) which of course he must do, he is not the type to be a deadbeat dad. (OW should know if WS doesn't pay for his son- you can act all friendly and confide in her). And in any case, WS MUST PAY. (Is he paying by the way? Can you get the money taken out of his paycheck?)

-call your WS when you know the OW is there, keep him on the phone speaking in Danish. Perhaps enlist a few friends to do the same.

-come over and help him with his computer- preferably when she is there. Act real friendly with her. Even make an effort to speak in English so you look like you are being nice and when you do, talk about family times or stuff that you shared with him in front of her. Historical stuff or injokes between you and your H. Be ultra helpful to your WS. OW will get sick of you hanging around and start to LB and tell WS to get rid of you. WS in the meantime will love having two women meeting his needs.

-Bring your son over frequently, tell her you're happy if he can have two families now. Let son spend LOTS and LOTS of time with them. Tell them you don't want your son to lose his father, and that when they have their new children, you want your son to feel a part of their family.

-Be ultra FRIENDLY with WS. Flirt with him, laugh with him, joke with him, pretend you are moving on. You are hurt by his decision of course, but you only want his happiness. Then do as much as you can to have fun on your own.

-Give this treatment three to four months if you can stand it and see what happens once OW and WS start to get to know each other. In effect, be the "Other Woman" yourself. OW will not be too happy once she is part of a triangle. She will start to LB and demand that WS not see you etc. She also won't be so happy when she is spending all this time with your son hanging around.

-In the meantime, work hard on yourself. Try to quit smoking (especially if OW doesn't smoke), work out etc. Get out there, meet new people and have fun!

Have to go now, more thoughts to follow.....

{{{{{{{{{Danish,}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Though I have not posted to you in a while I have been keeping up on your progress. You are as usual doing very well. But even then this is not easy. My heart goes out to you, it is so unfair.

It does seem that things have changed a bit and maybe Plan B will not work as well right now. Working your way back into his life so that you have a chance to Plan A him does sound wise.

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Is it wrong of me and should I leave MB if I'm not doing it "by the book"?<hr /></blockquote>I will reread Lostva’s story to see why you think she is doing things that are not by the book. Could you share with us what you think is not by the book? Then I’ll be able to give some feedback that is useful.

espoir, you are down right evil and I love it. The only problem I see with this approach is if Danish can handle it. It could be hard… but you know about payback ….

About your MIL and all the affairs, etc. in your H’s family, it is a learned behavior in many ways. Obviously this is how he learned to take care of life’s little ups and down.

I know that you want your husband back. But please do things for yourself. Start moving on even while you Plan A him. I do not mean for you to see another man of course. But do start to pursue activities that you like. You are so artistic. What do you do with your art? Are you in any shows or galleries? Why not try if you are not. Or if you are, expand.

Danish,

I am so worried that I will confuse you, but I want to give you my honest thoughts and they are a bit different from espoir and Zorweb. One thing that I know about Harley's concepts are that they often go against our natural instincts. Everyone wants to stay in Plan A so long, because they are afraid of the alternative. If anything, you've stayed in Plan A too long. You did one of the most excellent Plan As of anyone I have seen on the board and your husband is well aware of the kind of wife that you can be to him.

It may seem to you, that you don't have much leverage, but I think you have more than you know. Right now, his relationship with this OW is new and hasn't yet undergone the natural problems that occur in a relationship. Statistics say, that there is a 97% chance that within 6 months, it will be over. Further, he has her....and you have nothing, except his selfish desire for you to help him with the computer. He is using you. He may not need much.....YET, but right now, when he does....you are there. To me, this puts you in a unprotected situation where you are periodiocally exposed to more pain and harm. If you don't stop seeing him altogether, he will continue to use you and the stress and opportunity for Love Busting will eventually arise. If he compares the two of you.....let it be a comparison of what it was like to live with you....not what he has destroyed with his stupidity.

Your instinct will be to give him more....and he will take more....but I don't believe it will help your situation. He now needs to believe that his safety net is GONE. That you are ready to move on with your life. He needs to be able to look at the OW and find out all the ways she CAN'T fill your shoes....because you won't be there at all. It's much easier to hang on to the few connections that you still have....your dog, the computer....but they are just wisps and shadows.

There are many reasons to do a Plan B. Only one of them is to stop cake eating....which he is doing...not much....but some. The other reasons are if you are losing your love (you aren't), but the best reason is because he refuses to stop contact with the OW.

You did your Plan A. You did it for long enough and you did it well enough that if it was the answer....it would have helped by now. It is my opinion that you should go to a Plan B....a complete and total Plan B with zero contact. Let him remember your perfect Plan A while he struggles with his computer and gets frustrated and takes it out on her. Let them have their first fight while you spend some time nourishing your soul and using your energy on yourself.

I think a 180 would be far more meaningful if you were still living together. You see too little of him for it to be effective in this situation in my opinion...but get a second opinion Danish because I am just one voice. Let's go and post to cerri on her thread...huh?

I know this is a scary step for you, but the number one, all time, most common mistake in these plans.....is staying in Plan A too long. Another Plan A will exhaust you and not give you the energy you need to pursue your own path while he is making up his mind. You have an opportunity to be better off in Plan B....no matter what his decision is.

You asked if I thought this is hopeless. I do not. Not by a long shot. I have no question that his relationship with this woman will end. When it does.....you may or may not want him back anymore, because you will have been moving forward instead of hovering in limbo all of the time he has wasted.

(((((((((((((Danish)))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((Danish)))))))))))))))

[ July 29, 2003, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]

Danish,

Star brings up many very valid points. She has a very good grasp on all of this.

Earlier I said: “espoir, you are down right evil and I love it. The only problem I see with this approach is if Danish can handle it. It could be hard… but you know about payback ….”

The problems are that I don’t think you could handle it with no harm to you emotionally. There is also a huge potential for back firing. You can never control what another person does. But you can control what you do. What keeps coming to mind is that plan A’ing too long is not good.

The beauty of Plan B is that you are not trying to manipulate anyone. The WS and OW would know where you stand. You would be protected. There is great wisdom in this.

Now that you have had time to contemplate the options. What do you think?

I want to thank you all from the bottom of my heart for your honest thoughts and excellent help.
You girls are so bright and wonderful!!!!!!

I'm still not 100% sure what to do though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

---------------------------------------------------

>>>> espoir

Reconnection is exactly why I (maybe) want to stay in Plan A a little longer.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> call your WS when you know the OW is there, keep him on the phone speaking in Danish. <hr /></blockquote>I like that... and I have been doing it a lot when he was in Spain, but not recently. I haven't called him more than 3 or 4 times since he left. I don't think I could go to his apartment and meet OW though... but it would be a blast <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> Perhaps enlist a few friends to do the same. <hr /></blockquote>It's not possible I'm afraid... it is now "My friends" and "his friends". I called "his", told them what was going on and said goodbye to them. WH didn't talk to any of "my friends" after this, even though they were the couples we spent most of our time with. I'm sure he'll miss their company after a while - he has only 3 old friends of his own and the two of them are single males.

---------------------------------------------------

>>>> Zorweb

Lostva did Plan A forever. That's what I mean when I say she didn't do it by the book. She never went to Plan B. Lostva became her WH's best friend and eventually he came back to her and stayed. She continually showed Robert her love and respect even when he lived with OW.

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I know that you want your husband back. But please do things for yourself. Start moving on even while you Plan A him. <hr /></blockquote>I am doing things for myself - learning new skills every day. Learning what I HAVE to do for me (and S) to have a good life with or without WH. I'm quite proud of my progress - I just need to get rid of the cigarettes, and I'm determined to do so!

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>>>> Star*fish

I understand why you think I should go to Plan B and why it can be very effective in many cases. You're right - Plan B IS scary!
A few weeks before OW leaves Denmark would be the perfect time to implement Plan B in my case I think - IF I'm able to continue a tremendous Plan A. If not, I promise you I'll go into Plan B sooner!

Even though I did a fairly good Plan A while WH was still in the house, it was way too short - and he was not paying attention at all. I also think I acted a little too independent and he got the impression that I was bitter at times - that's what HE remembers I think. You know - I packed his things and the photos, I asked him to go live at his moms place, I was putting pressure on him all the time and asked him to choose between me and OW.
After he moved out I am doing it a little better - but still not good enough.

I just KNOW I have to change some things about myself - issues I've had with rejection of WH in the past, not telling him in a loving and respectful way how I felt, bad habits I know he hated, - many things he needed that I didn't give him.
Leisure time together was essential to him (and to me) - I know that now - but I was way too engaged in my son all the time. WH didn't fill my needs 100% either and if we ever decide to reconcile it's going to be hard work for both of us.

I wish I could show him I have changed my focus. I loved him and admired him deeply and still do - I want so much to SHOW him that, even though it might be too late!

I hope you wont see this as if I did not tell you the truth about my M earlier! New thoughts develop every day and as I analyse myself and my behaviours deeper, I realize I have a lot to change and have changed a lot already - for ME. I didn't really love ME before.

-------------------------------------------------

My love for WH is very strong and it wont fade in the near future no matter what - he is in the fog and I know he lied to himself before he lied to me. I can bare with that, knowing I in a way stand stronger than he.

Your thoughts on what I just wrote will be highly appreciated as always <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Danish,

Just wanted to say that am also living in DK.

I think that when Lostva Plan A:d her H forever, she also communicated to him that whatever he does it is o.k, she will be loving and understanding without setting any boundaries. She became his best friend and he knows that should he ever be weak again, it will somehow work out. He loses nothing by being weak, only gains.

I think it is a natural consequence to all the hurt, to at one point say "enough is enough", you are continuing to hurt me, no matter how hard I try and it makes me angry, so I have to do for eg. a Plan B or a 180, to make you understand that I deserve to be treated with respect.

I have a hard time showing my anger. I have a hard time turning around, being strong and a woman in my own right. Its easier to cling and feel guilty that all of this is happening. I think all of us BS know how we have neglected our spouses, the trouble is that we drown ourselves in it, and forget that we have been neglected too.

I think that espoirs advice, even though it sounds SO tough to do, sounds like it would get your H to see you. Because it is you that acts like the OW, and he sees sides of you (at the other side of the fence) that he did not see before. It will get him thinking. All of a sudden this clingy woman is getting over him and is happy, excited, caring, supportive...That is called scrambling his head and making him very confused, because the real OW will know what you are doing and start LB him. Reality will hit him harder. She will ask him to get you out of their life, but he won´t want it because you add value to HIS life, so he will tell her that she has to live with it because you have a son together.

My advise is to do the 180 degrees. I think TooMuchCoffeeMan has a list of the dos and not to dos on his signature line. You can´t do a really good Plan A because you aren´t living together. You can´t do a Plan B because your Plan A was too short. So whats left? An 180 degrees. Be pleasant, have class, show support, no LB´s, but show that you are strong and moving on with your life.

When you feel you need to cry, shout, hurt. Do it where he cannot see it.

-queen-

P.S Until a few days ago my id was Queen of a broken heart, but because of a lost password made a new id that was similar

Oh and make sure when you help him with the computer that you smell nice, look sexy as anything and bring him his favourite danish pastry ;-)

The strategy that I posted above is not for the faint hearted and I think you would have to be very strong willed to carry it through. I will say that I called the OW twice during the A and I was extremely courteous and gracious and then I used the information I gained to my advantage.

I do however have a different impression which is that danish may not have been able to do a picture perfect plan A. I have the impression that your H came back in May, wouldn't give up OW, so he moved into his parents' basement at Danish's urging, which may have caused more disconnection.

So I think now is the time to be on the scene, and in effect, let your H cakeeat. Because in effect, he is lost to you anyway at this point, so you can let him do it without really caring, but it will p#$% OW off big time. That is, of course, if you can handle it emotionally. I think it is doable in this case, because of the hurdles OW and WH face- their relationship is going to come up against some big stumbling blocks- language, money etc.

I think the 180 list has alot of good ideas.

Plan B however could work too. I think it has to be based on your sense of where you are at with your WS.

Talk about cake eating!

WH called me monday evening (I wasn't home) - then tuesday afternoon he called again to talk about how it went with our dog - I called him yesterday to ask him a question about the TV channels and I helped him with some computer problems he had (via the phone) - he called me today to let me know when he would come by to pick up S.

When he came here today we talked about family and friends and he asked me if he could RENT my car a week in august. Family members of his (whom we've never met) - from the US is coming to Denmark that week - I helped him arrange their visit. WH will show them Denmark - in MY car, with OW by his side!
I laughed and said: "are you joking?".
He looked surprised and said "No I'm not - it will be cheaper for me than if I have to rent a car - I'll drive you to work and give you money for a cab home, - still cheaper"
"I don't think it'll be a good idea but I promise you I'll think it over and let you know" I said.
Well - conversation, the car and the computer... meeting a few needs still I think.

>>>> Queen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi! Great to see you - I thought I was the only dane here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Sad that we have to be here, but MB is such a wonderful place. Where in Denmark do you live? I live in Aalborg.
I appreciate your post and I'm trying to make up my mind on what's best to do!
-------------------------------------------------

>>>> Espoir <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thank you!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> So I think now is the time to be on the scene, and in effect, let your H cakeeat. <hr /></blockquote>I'm glad you see it this way because I need it to be like that for a (short) period of time. When I go into Plan B (and I'm sure I will have to eventually) it's very important to me that I feel I've done the best Plan A I possibly could. As long as I'm not suffering or am lose my love for WH I think it is the best option for me.

Danish,

I understand your reasoning, but I still think more Plan A is superfluous right now. Enabling his cheating is all that a Plan A is now doing, and if you rent your car to him....well you won't will you??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> His A may need to just play out and fail as it most likely will, but at least in a Plan B you have more dignity. The Plan A is not hurting you because you are an incredibly strong and loving woman with an almost endless capacity for giving. But it isn't ending the affair either. Why should he end the affair when he can have you both? I know you don't agree....and I respect that....but have to still try to give you the best advice I can. I know you are questioning how good your Plan A was, or whether is was long enough. For a man, Plan A shouldn't last more than 3 months. I know you have been focussed at least that long. I know you have stopped LBs for that long. More than that, hurts more than it helps. I am so afraid that more than love right now.....it is fear that is keeping you from taking the next step. I understand that, but I am going to keep being a little bug in your ear. Please do a recap of your sitch to cerri, Orchid, Pepperband, TMCM and JL.....especially cerri. Get lots of opinions. And listen with your head as well as your heart. My thoughts are with you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

***** Star*fish

You ARE a bug in my ear <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> but you're acting like a Guardian Angel to me - it's a mystery to me how you manage to provide guidance and care for SOoooo many people every day. Thank you for being here!

If - IF I implement Plan B now - a question:
I have an urge to send a letter to MIL and SIL as well, explaining to them that I LOVE WH and this radical action is taken only because I want my marriage to survive and I want to protect my feelings for WH.
*?

I find it difficult to 'consult' cerri and others on this... I wouldn't know how to ask and sum it all up in one short question - I struggle with all my posts in this foreign language <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Hi Danish,

After all I have just read all I can say is I don't think your H is truely over you yet.

He needs you and he knows it.

But please do not rent him your car do not make life easy for him,he is not making it easy for you and S.Is he paying support yet?

I have no advice because I still need alot myself but like always I just want you to know I think of you daily.

Talk to you again soon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

HI Danish,

I haven't replied to any of your posts but I have been following. You sound like you are making great progress and getting lots of good advice.

I would like to offer mine. Whatever you do, do not rent him your car. He decided to walk out, he cannot have his cake and eat it too.

He may get angry that you won't lend it to him, but don't you think you've suffered enough? First the car, then he'll be asking for something else.

By him walking out, he decided what he wanted to do while in the fog.

Let me ask you this - if you rent him your car won't that give him more money to spend on the OW?

He made his bed, now in a loving way let him lie in it. No pun intended. It is so hard to say no to someone we love and want to hold on to. I know, I did it. It would kill me when I would say no, I was always afraid that if I said no that would push him away further, but it didn't and I think he ended up respecting me even more.

My thoughts are with you. You will come out of this stronger and wiser.

xxx

Hey Danish,

Live north of Copenhagen. Yes, it is nice to see other danes around, (just sorry it is on this site).

Whatever you do, I tend to agree, no lending the car. Allowing him to use you is not the same as loving him. Show him your strength.

I´m struggling also with the Plan B application. Like you find it tought ot know when it is the right time to implement as timing is important. And like many others say here you have to think with your head, not with your heart. When you think with the heart, the Plan B will never seem right.

kaerlig hilsen (danish for warm regards)
queen

Danish,

IF you impliment Plan B, the letter to your MIL and FIL is vital. Yes you write them and tell them you still love your husband, but that until no contact, you must protect yourself from more pain. Do say you don't want a divorce. Plan B is designed to leave the door open.....not close it. And if you do decide. I'd like you to post on the GQII board. Ask Mortarman for help....he is the best Plan B man on the site I think. Although Orchid and Peppeband are wonderful too.

I'm just buzzing around your head. I can tell how much you love your husband. I truly believe that if you had to do a Plan A for years, you probably are strong enough to....but it wouldn't benefit you to. It would turn you into the lovliest Danish doormat there is. Timing is important, there is no question of that. And truly, the time is overdue...so don't wait too much longer okay?

I wanted to leave this for you to review from the main site about Plan B:

Sometimes a wayward spouse settles into a routine of having his or her cake and eating it too. In an effort to win the wayward spouse back, the betrayed spouse meets emotional needs that the lover cannot meet, while the lover meets emotional needs that the wayward spouse has not learned to meet. While this competition is excruciatingly painful to the betrayed spouse, and the lover as well, the wayward spouse basks in the warmth of being loved and cared for by two people, with no real motivation to choose one over the other.

So, to avoid an indefinite period of suffering while a wayward spouse vacillates between spouse and lover, and to avoid rewarding the selfish behavior of having needs met by both spouse and lover, if plan A does not work within a reasonable period of time, I recommend plan B.

Plan B is for the betrayed spouse to avoid all contact with the wayward spouse until the affair has completely ended and the wayward spouse has agreed to my plan for recovery. In many cases, once an affair has ended, a betrayed spouse makes the mistake of taking the wayward spouse back before an agreement is made regarding marital recovery. This leads to a return to all the conditions that made the affair possible -- love is not restored, resentment is not overcome, and there is a very great risk for another affair. Without agreement and subsequent implementation of a plan for recovery, the betrayed spouse is better off continuing with plan B.

Since plan B (and plan A, for that matter), is extremely stressful for the betrayed spouse, I usually recommend that he or she ask a physician to prescribe anti-depressant medication to be taken throughout the crisis. This not only greatly reduces the suffering of the betrayed spouse, but it also helps keep a clear head at a time when patience and wise decisions are crucial. Anti-depressant medication does not numb the betrayed spouse to the crisis, it actually helps raise him or her above emotional reactions that would otherwise prevent clear-headed thinking. Why suffer and and make poor choices when anti-depressant medication can help ease your pain and improve your concentration in this time of unprecedented crisis?

While I have seen remarkable success by people using plan A and plan B, success is by no means guaranteed. The problem with Plan B is that the unfaithful spouse may not return, nor agree to the plan for recovery, even after the affair has ended. Separation in marriage is always risky because, "out of sight, out of mind." Unless plan A leaves the wayward s pouse with the impression that returning home is an attractive choice, separation can become permanent. So before implementing plan B, you want to be sure that the last thing your spouse remembers about you is the care and thoughtfulness you offered in plan A. That way, the separation can help create, "absence makes the heart grow fonder."

As it turns out, most affairs end within six months of their seeing the light of day (being revealed to their family and friends), and almost all affairs end without leading to marriage. Even those few that end in marriage have only a 25% rate of success. That's because affairs are based on dishonesty and thoughtlessness for the feelings of others. That same dishonesty and thoughtlessness eventually turns on the lovers themselves, and the affair is destroyed by those same flaws that made it possible in the first place. What drives affairs is passion, not commitment, and once the passion wanes, there is nothing to help the lovers restore their passion. Marriage, on the other hand, especially with children, has many factors that motivate couples to restore their passion for each other after passion has waned. So when passion is gone from an affair, a wayward spouse is usually motivated to return to the betrayed spouse by all of these other factors. For most, it's a logical choice.

But what about marital separation when an affair is not the issue. In your letter, you did not indicate why you had separated. It may have been for reasons other than infidelity.

In general, I recommend separation when at least one spouse cannot control destructive behavior. An ongoing affair, of course, is one of those situations. Hence, plan B. But other situations such as physical and verbal abuse, where one spouse's mental or physical safety is as risk, are also grounds for separation. As in the case of infidelity, if one spouse is abusive, I often recommend plan A first, where, through negotiation (without anger, disrespect or demands), an attempt is made to overcome the abuse without separating.

But in some cases, the safety risks are so great that plan B should be implemented immediately, with no time for plan A. In these cases, treatment for the abusive habit must take place during separation, and some evidence must exist that the risk has been greatly reduced, or completely eliminated, before the spouses should return to each other. Then, after being together again, the formerly abusive spouse should be held accountable by others for his or her behavior to assure the other spouse's safety.

In other cases, such as annoying behavior or failure to meet important emotional needs, where thoughtlessness does not reach the level of physical or mental abuse, plan A should be given quite a bit of time and effort before resorting to plan B. Remember, plan A is negotiating (without anger, disrespect or demands) to eliminate the annoying behavior or improve the meeting of emotional needs. A blanket agreement between spouses to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward eliminating these thoughtless acts, and can also help couples learn to meet each other's needs with enthusiasm. But without that policy, couples often find that they cannot get anywhere with each other through negotiation, and sometimes separation can eventually lead to mutual recognition that they need the Policy of Joint Agreement to help them resolve conflicts.

But, as I mentioned earlier, the risks of separation are great. It should be used only as a last resort to help resolve a fatal flaw in marriage. Once separated, couples often never do reconcile, remaining separated for life, or they eventually divorce. A fact unknown to many is that fifteen to twenty percent of all married couples end their lives permanently separated. These, who are not included in divorce statistics, usually feel that they should not legally divorce for religious reasons. But for most practical purposes, they are as divorced as those legally divorced. Their separation did not create the opportunity for reconciliation, but rather, created an even higher barrier between spouses.

So whenever spouses separate, I usually encourage a plan that moves them toward eventual reconciliation. From your letter, it sounds as if you are moving in that direction, and you simply need to know when it would be the right time to move back together. And you may want to know more about full marital recovery after you have ended your separation.

The four rules to recovery that I recommend after an affair are marital rules that every couple should be following. So they should form the basis for any plan for recovery after a separation. Since the four rules cover every conceivable problem that married couples face, they would address the issue that led to your separation. If you were to follow these four rules as part of your plan for recovery, I guarantee you that you will not only eliminate the problems that led you to separate, but you will also resolve many other conflicts that have prevented you from having a successful marriage.

[ August 01, 2003, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: star*fish ]

Danish,

I saw this post that cerri made to hopeful98 who is in a similar position to yours. I don't want to keep bombarding you with stuff...but I did want to share it with you because both of you seem to be in the same place:

Really? I guess I'm just scared that Plan B will really drive him away.

First, NO ONE wants to do Plan B. Ever. That's normal. We all have exactly the same fears, they just manifest a little differently depending on the situation.

While we have even the tiniest spark of feeling for our spouse we want to hang in there fighting for the R and showing that we can be "good enough." Of course, our ability to do a good Plan A diminishes as time goes on and our LBnk drains. And then the minute those feelings are gone (and for women especially that can happen in a heartbeat) we see no reason to Plan B. Either way, staying too long in Plan A is destructive.

Second..... he's already gone. You're not pushing him away, you are protecting you from having to deal on a day to day basis with his thoughtless and cruel behavior.

Isn't the Plan B letter about making him decide about his M or this OW?

Not at all. The Plan B letter says these things (I just happen to keep the list handy )

• I love you.
• I married you for life. I want to stay married to you
• I am willing to do what it takes to be the spouse you've always wanted and to address the things I did wrong in the marriage.
• The affair/neglect/abuse is so painful for me that it will destroy the love I have for you. In order to protect those feelings I must end all contact with you.
• As soon as the affair/neglect/abuse is over I would love to talk with you about our future.
• Until that time please respect my wish for no contact whatsoever
• In an emergency you can reach me through______.
• Arrangements for seeing children and handling finances are_____.
~~~~

It's really not about him at all. It's about you and your need to completely remove yourself from a situation which is painful. AND very importantly, it leaves the door open for reconciliation as soon as the affair is over.

How can I ask him to make that choice when it's obvious that he wants OW? Perhaps I haven't understood Plan B correctly.

You're not asking him to make a choice. You are telling him that you are making a choice to protect you and the feelings you still have for him.

The very fact that he's making it obvious that he wants her is the same reason you need Plan B.

Danish.

I totally agree with Star*fish advice but if you don't want to implement Plan B, the consider doing carolkh's 180 degree plan that worked for her. If you are interested in reading her success story then click on the following link: Hey CarolKH... can you elaborate on your story? .

Keep yourself busy with activities and people that enrich your life, and I beseech you to not become a recluse because of what's happening in your marriage. If you continue living your life to the fullest, you become an attractive person not only to others but very possibly to your WH as well. So please make every effort to continue making your life the best it can be.

[ August 02, 2003, 05:41 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]

Danish,

Inspite of what I have advised you, I would really like you to know one thing: There aren't many people on this board who could actually do a "lostva". I can see why her story is inspirational to you.....because it reminds me of you. You have the kind of calm grace that she has. I still believe that an indefinite Plan A opens you and others to a great deal of sacrifice and often more pain, and works out for only a small few (but there are a few), and I can also feel that you do not feel emotionally ready for a different course. I feel, and I think we probably agree on this, that this affair will have to run it's course no matter which plan you choose. It seems perfect to him now, but it will undoubtedly sour and fail (how long that will take, I don't know....but I think a Plan A does lengthen that time). Plan A would probably fail completely in a circumstance like this UNLESS the person is strong enough, like lostva....to never ever LB in the face of extreme rejection and pain over a long period of time. It is a herculean effort.....but who am I to say that you are not "up" to it....I can't, I wouldn't. In the end you must march to your own drum. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I will always think the world of you.

Hi there - Queen, Ginger, Hearbroken, Star*, Coffeeman - Thank you all!

I was in the middle of a VERY long response to each of you late last night, when suddently my internet connection was cut off - Arrrggghhh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

It's late again here in Denmark - 1.50 AM - and I'm on my way to hit the pillows. Just wanted to say that I have read ALL the basics and Q&A's here at MB, read all the "notable posts" - I've read SAA and I read EVERY thread here... I want to learn every aspect of infidelity known to man - yet, not two affairs are the same and what works for one M might be a shot in the dark for others.

You are so right, Bright Shining Star* that my husbands affair will have to run it's course and I'm well aware of that.
I just want to be an option worth considering for my WH before I go to Plan B (and I will - when the timing is right for me!) I will feel good in the process of "charming" him and no matter what the outcome will be, I'll pad myself on the shoulder knowing that I did the best Plan A I could.

Your help and support and your kind words are very much appreciated - and I hope you'll be here for me in the future. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'll try to reply to others more. I'm usually more of a Giver than a Taker but not lately, I'm afraid.

Hi Danish

I was out of town for a couple of days.
Every one here has such good solid advise for you there is nothing I could say or add to it so I will just say hello and how are you today? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hej Danish!,

How is the charming him going? What are you doing? Have you read the 180 degrees? I think you are on the right track, don´t lose faith and hope though. One day is an up and another day is a down. When you have a down day, look after yourself, talk to family and friends, a therapist, work out to look and feel good...

On the up days straighten that back of yours, with your chin up to the sky and SHINE, so that when and if your WH sees you he´ll be saying to himself " What the... has happened to my wife?" He´ll begin to get interested, he´s a man.

Read Lulus post in this section on page 8 and Johnh39´s reply to her. Amazing perception of men! Helped me hope it will help you...

-queen-

Danish,
Have not heard from you in a couple of days thought I would stop by and say hello and hope all is ok.

Thanks, Queen and Ginger!

I'm so <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> at my WH these days!

Nothing new in the M situation I'm afraid but that is not why I am mad. Im mad at him because he never calls our son... S visited WH thursday last week and is going again saturday. In between visits WH never seem to be interested in S's everyday life - when I talk to WH on the phone he never tell me to say hello to S from him.
I'm unable to understand how a father can behave like this to his child <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

My son told me yesterday that he's embarassed that his dad lives with OW already, and he does not want his friends to know. Should I tell WH about these thoughts? S don't tell him... I think he's afraid he'll loose his dad completely.

Hi Danish,

Sorry to hear that he is being a lousy dad. How did he use to be a father, you know, when he was not in the fog.

Don´t you think it is because he is 1) in the fog, 2) feeling guilt (my WH did not want to talk to anyone, parents, friends about what he has been up to for half a year)

Don´t you think it is because he cannot FACE the real world, it´s safer living in the fantasy world. You know what they say about being in love? That lovers could live on an open beach living on bread and water, because nothing else matters. That is FOG!

He WILL get back to normal, just do that Plan A and rock the OW into the real world by getting her to lovebuster your H, while he is cakeeating. When she starts LB´ing, he´ll start looking back at you and your son.

You have a long journey ahead of you, don´t give up hope. Nothing changes overnight.

Take care!

-queen-

HI Danish

Good to hear from you.
I am so sorry about what your H is doing.
I do not understand how a man or woman can abandon thier family.
This is the part of the A I hate.Adults being so selfish that they do not even care about the feeling of an inocent child.
I think you should tell your H what son says,he needs to know that his child is unhappy with the choice his father has made.Let WH know that this will effect S for a very long time probably well into his adult life.This is very damaging to a child when thier world is broken apart and WH needs to know this and start showing responsibility.

Sorry I did not mean to go on and on but this subject just gets me going <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

How are you holding up Danish?

Danish, this is exactly why....anger.....that it's so hard to maintain an indefinite Plan A. Eventually, the selfishness of the WS destroys the love. Don't let that happen to you okay? Go to B if you find that the anger is too overwhelming. I'm think of you.

It's very common for the WS to block out their parental responsibility. I know someone whose husband seemed like a fabulous father- he fell into an A and eventually moved to the other side of the US to be with OW. He has become completely disconnected from his kids. It is mind boggling. This is a man who never even wanted to hire a babysitter. Now he barely even calls his kids. I think he is overwhelmed with guilt and can't face them.

It's a weird thing when a spouse leaves. On one hand, the BS is tempted to cling to the kids. We don't want them exposed to OW and we don't want the kids to form some other kind of family with OW and WS, it's too painful. Reeling with the pain of betrayal, I felt like, let him lose everything.

On the other hand, why should a WS be let off the hook for their parenting duties? Parenting is very hard work. Once you have created a child, it's not an option to decide if you want to look after the child or not.

When my WS was considering leaving I struck a balance by determining a visitation schedule with him of every other weekend and once during the week. He didn't leave, but if he had I would have held him fiercely to that responsibility.

You can't make your WS call your son. However, there are several approaches you can take. One is to say, WS, son really misses you on the days you are not here. He would like to call you on such and such an evening between visits.

Or when he calls you, simply say quickly, before the call is over, oh, S wants to talk to you and hand the phone to your son.

Your WS is in the fog and is blocking out what's going on. He is most likely oblivious to the pain he is causing your son. His rationale is something like "Son is older, becoming more independant, doesn't need me like when he was a small boy"... "Son is only thinking about his friends, he is bored hanging out around me, he has more fun with his friends..." "Danish is such a good mother, she is taking care of everything and handling things so well..." "When I call and try to talk to son, he doesn't have much to say anyhow..." all these types of thoughts are avoidance and a way to rationalize his behavior.

My advice- hold your WS to his responsibilities! You haven't said if he is paying up his child support. Also- good question- how were his parenting skills prior to the A?

I think you can plan A for a while until you get sick of it and move to Plan B. So in the case of the car, come up with an excuse with why you need the car for yourself that week. Smile sweetly and say, "oh I'm so sorry I can't help you with that! Maybe the relatives from America can rent a car to tour in."

How is it going Danish?

Hi Danish,

Any updates? I'm worried about you.

I second that.
What is going on its been awhile since we have heard from you.

Thank your for the posts.

I haven't been able to do much lately. I suffer from episodic Cluster Headaches and now I'm two weeks into a period of these excrutiating and devastatingly painful attacks. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Thursday I'm going through a cone surgery for abnormal cervical cell changes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Life isn't too good to me these days - WH know what I'm going through... but no phonecalls or a nice word to comfort me.
I wonder if I can use that selfish man for anything in my life?

I have more I want to tell you. I'll get back to it later - a headache is on it's way...

Dear Danish:

I suffer from migraines too. It's hard to do anything when you can't even see straight. Flickering computers don't help.

I wonder if I can use that selfish man for anything in my life?

Have you thought about taking a self-defense course? He'd make a great dummy to take out all of your frustration and aggression... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Just kidding. Get better soon. We were really worried about you.

Thanks SAB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm quickly losing my for WH. Now I'm finally ready for Plan B. When I leave the hospital after my surgery I'll send him the letter.

WH does EVERYTHING together with OW. It hurts that he don't like me or need me at all.

I called him sunday and suggested a schedule for S to go to WH apartment. It's like this:
Thursday - monday - weekend - thursday - monday - weekend....
I think I was extremely fair to him.
Because I'm going through surgery tomorrow (a thursday) I called today and asked if S could go to my parents and spend tomorrow night there together with me. It's right next to S's school and a lot easier for him... and S wanted it that way because he also wants to see if I'm ok.
WH said NO.

I want full custody so badly! Will that ruin any attempt to get my M back - I guess the answer is yes???

Danish,

I don't think of full custody as hurting your chances....think about it...if he can't have his son on his terms, seems like that's more not less reason to come home. I'd go for full custody. Post your letter before you send it okay? If you would rather....please at least send to my email. starfish4729@hotmail.com

[ August 20, 2003, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]

HI Danish
I have missed you so.
I am so sorry to hear about all that is going on in your life.
I am so sorry to hear of your health problems.
You are in my prayers and thoughts always.
You need to do what is right for your S and if that means full custody than you should go for it.You are so kind all ways concerned of WH happiness.Please Danish begin to think of your happiness, it is time for that.
Take care I will talk to you soon.

Hi Danish,

My thoughts are with you today, where you are going into surgery. I will be praying for you that everything will go o.k. I am so sorry that you have to go through this during the worst crisis of your life, and I know it is really hard to see it right now, but try to think of this time as a gift to you, not a punishment.

The gift is that through all of the pain and sadness, you as a person, are becoming more whole. You are evolving to be someone with a deeper clarity of your own person, deeper and wiser than you have ever been before.

It sucks that one should receive a gift like that in the form that is given, it is not something that one would choose for themselves if given the choice. But believe in the higher meaning of it all and you will see the good that comes with it.

I would come by the hospital today to give you a hug...are you anywhere near Copenhagen?

hugs queen

Hello...

I'm alive - my surgery went well - my son had blood poisoning a few days ago and I was VERY alarmed/worried... but now he's better.
I found out from reading Gingersnap's tread - exciting stuff!!! star* <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ...that some of you were a bit worried where I've been.

I'll keep you updated from now on but now I have to go to bed. It's 01.26 at night here in Denmark.

I love you girls!!!

Danish
Let me be the first to say welcome back,we have worried so about you.

Star started a thread with some prayers for you look for it ok.

How are you besides very tired?
Let us know the latest with WH ok.

I will be looking for you.

I have missed you I could not believe it when I logged in and saw your name I was so excited.

Sorry to hear about S is he doing better?
Take care, look forward to hearing from you soon.

Hi Danish,

Welcome back from me too.

Look forward to hearing how you are coping and doing.

You are in my prayers.

-queen-

Tell us about your surgery. We were all worried about you. Talk about stress!

Glad to have you back in one piece.

I'll say a prayer for your S.

Danish,

I am so relieved to find you back on the board. My prayers have been with you. Yes, we were a bit worried. I would very much like you to send me your email....so let me know if that would be all right with you. I hope all went well with your surgery. I will be around tomorrow....but just got back from my trip and am tired tonight. *hugs*

I'm so glad you are all still here - thank you so much for your prayers.

I'll put together a post tonight or tomorrow about what happened in my life the last few weeks.
Star* - my E-mail address is...
arty@arty.dk

Hello Danish

Just wanted to say hi and let you know that I hope you are doing ok.

I really have missed chating with you.Hope you feel up to posting soon.

Have a great night/day which ever it is in Denmark <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I was so addicted to MB that I needed a break to do a little thinking of my own. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I was feeling relaxed and fairly happy for some weeks. One thing in particular I've noticed is that I like my own (and S's) company and I don't miss being critizised all the time as my WH used to do. I critisized him to much too - I see that now.
But - now I feel abandoned, sad and lonely again - it's kinda creeping in on me slowly that this is how my life will be for a very long time. I was so optimistic in the beginning about WH coming back to me... deep down I couldn't believe he was gone forever - now I realize he probably love this OW and it hurts.

The following will show you how serious WH is about his R with OW:

I visited MIL one afternoon - just too see how she was. She was glad to see me but some of what she said was:
- "Didn't you see it coming?" (I suspect WH told her he's been unhappy in our M for years - as he told me)
- "I understand him - afterall they share interests" (WH & OW = the "spiritual stuff")

WH's family from the states visited Denmark 10 days in august and they went on trips with the entire (inlaw) family - WH, OW and S was attending together. Later in august WH's sister held her 50 birthday and WH and OW was there.
--------------------

Honestly - I don't think any plan would bring my H back - he and OW are very attached. S say she is a very nice person and when I asked him what he felt about her he told me she was his good friend.
I've thought a lot about Plan B for my own sake. If it's going to be then it must be implemented some time before OW leaves Denmark. I don't know if she has got a visa to stay here until december - if she has not, then she'll have to leave in the end of this month.
--------------

WH is finally paying his child support.

I wrote him a letter recently. I told him a month ago that I wanted to talk to him about important issues but he never found the time to talk. I wrote to him that I hoped he realized that S will need him many years from now... that it's importent he shows S that he care... that I don't understand why he never calls S and never tell me to say hello to S for him. I wrote that I hoped he would spend some time alone with S soon as he promised me when he left. OW is always present and S need to see his dad alone from time to time.
In the letter I also told WH that I'm OK but I still don't understand why he is hostile/uncaring towards me.
He didn't respond to my letter but I know he read it because after that he's been nice to me when we talk. He even took S out without OW... he called S and asked how he was... he told me to say hello to S for him - all the things I mentioned in the letter. Maybe he's doing these things because he's afraid I'll go for sole custody if not? I'm happy for S though that his dad is more "visible" in his life now.

Buttom line - it's all "too calm". No angry outbursts on either sides... no argues... no talking... no NOTHING. It kinda feels like we have never known each other... it sure does not feel like we've lived together for 15 years.

- and I don't know what to do to bring WH closer to me.... we're so detached and hope is fading fast.

Sorry for the long post. Never the less I probably forgot something but I'll be back

thinking of you, danish...

it's hard, because affairs take a long time to run their course. plus, your WH has had little in the way of consequences for his A. His family including your MIL, a former OW, seems to be welcoming OW, and your son has accepted her. Which is good in a way, because you don't want your son to feel pain, but it sure makes it easy for WS!

I still think he will encounter problems with her down the road when reality hits. There is bound to be conflict, over money, over having a child etc. His relationship with her may work out or it may not, but it will not be "perfection" I promise you that.

Probably Plan B is best for you to protect you from the pain. Focus on yourself right now, treating yourself tenderly and gently.

It is good that he is paying his child support and good that he is more involved with your son. Your letter to him was excellent! I know that it is probably painful for you to have to deal with him, but it is best for your son to have a caring, involved father. It is tribute to your excellence as a mom that you welcome your son's father's involvement in his life even if it is painful for you.

Hello Ginger and Espoir... thank you.
I'm so very grateful you've followed my situation... you too star*, zorweb, SAB, Queen and others.

Now it's time for me to say goodbye. I need to rise above all the sadness on this board for a while. I've read EVERY post in the infidelity section every day for months now and most of them makes me sad. I find myself unable to give advise to others...
The support here is terrific... thanks again for being here when I needed you.
Zorweb - where are you??? I miss your competent and caring views on things.
Star* - you asked for my e-mail adress... it's in one of my posts if you'd like to write me a letter.

See you later.
Take care! My prayers are with you all.
Love
Danish
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Danish,

You will be missed.

I wish you the best.

I understand your need to get away from this boiling pot of suffering. I've been reading/posting here for over two years and need to get off of it myself. It's addictive.

-AD

[ September 12, 2003, 03:56 PM: Message edited by: AD. ]

Hi again... I couldn't leave after all. I hope you don't mind? I was very confused and didn't see that I could do anything. Now I know that if I send the PlanB letter I did everything possible to save my marriage... I will feel better!

Star* - I recieved your letter and read it. Thank you so much. By a mistake it was deleted (by S)the same day so I never got a chance to respond. I would have written here before but it took me ages to finish my Plan B letter, and I wanted to show it to you in my first post as a kudos to your great support and advice.

It's posted in the GQII section.

{{{{{{{{{Danish}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Glad to see you!

Hello my friend Danish
I have missed you so.
I was so excited when I saw your name on the thread.Please forgive me for not emailing you.I think of you daily.Please post an update so we all know how life is going for you.I am so glad that you are back and hope that you will stick around for a while so that we can all support you during this time.

You are a very special and strong woman.
Hope to hear from you soon.

{{{{{{ SAB & Ginger }}}}}}}
I think of you too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

This is the short news version - and it's way too long cause nothing really happened...

OW got her visa to stay in Denmark until newyear. I guess this is what I wanted if there is any chance of WH and her to come out of the fog and everyday life to set in. Never the less it is very hard for me that she stays another 3 months.

S is beginning to feel less comfortable with the situation. He's bored a lot of the time when he is at his dads place. He tells me that most of the time they watch a lot of movies and tv. He also tells me that OW is nice and she cooks great asian food. WH has always loved asian food - he cooks too - danish, italian, french food.

Anyway - S isn't happy about the visitation schedule we set up. He would like to stay at home more so he can be with his friends. S still sleeps on the couch in the livingroom when he's with dad.

I called WH today to talk about a future schedule and what we'll do when christmas comes.
WH got a little mad at me when I asked him for a new schedule... he also said that S was so selfish and didn't think of what he (WH) needed at all. I told him very politely and calm (even with a smile in my voice) - "well, when I was a teenager I didn't want to be with my parents all the time either. I needed to have friends come over and I remember how we had fun and talked - in my room - where the door could be closed. I guess that is part of how S feels... he need his own private space in your home too. Now he feels like a visitor"
We talked about christmas too. I would love S to be with me every year, but of course it's not realistic. This christmas OW will be with WH and his family. I told WH that I don't want S and her to spend their christmas together... it would not be right. WH said that I must be prepared that maybe she is here next christmas too. I said (BAD - LB - I know it was wrong but I wanted to hurt him): "But it will be different - we will be divorced at that time". He replied "At least another year will have passed".

Well... that's it I think. We don't talk much and I hardly ever see him.
Plan B is a must for me now.

Danish,

I'm trying to control my addiction to the board too. Feel free to contact me.....you too ladies.....starfish4729@hotmail.com. I'll make sure to check out your Plan B letter. Hugs...we've missed you!

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> called WH today to talk about a future schedule and what we'll do when christmas comes.
WH got a little mad at me when I asked him for a new schedule... he also said that S was so selfish and didn't think of what he (WH) needed at all. <hr /></blockquote>Anyone, please correct me if I am wrong, but I honestly feel that what WH needs with regards to his son is of little importance when you compare it to what S needs. WH, created the situation, he should live with the consequences of it. Why make it easier on WH? He should have thougth of this first.

Hi Danish
I think what SwH said is right.Who really cares about WH his comment was just one more selfish act.How can he as an adult put himself and his happiness before his childs.Oh please don't answer that we all know the answer.You are doing great w/how you are handling things.Much better than I would be doing.I have found my self lately not being very nice at all.
I am tired of my H going right back into his old habbits,acting the same as before the A.I told him how dangerous this is,he does not believe me.And the worst part is,that he is acting just like before and had the nerve to tell me that I was the to blame for his A.I think not.
And I have pointed this out to him.

Well best of luck keep posting so we know how you and S are doing.

Danish,

I left my comments about your Plan B letter over on GQII. You've always had a mind of your own....so remember that the suggestions I make are only suggestions. Do what YOU must....say what you must say. But I gave you my best input. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

bump for Danish. How are you?

{{{{{Star*, Ginger, Sue, SAB}}}}}
... Thank you for letting me know you are "with me" still. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
I've been VERY busy at work lately. I work full time as a graphics designer and I love my job and my colleagues.

Today I have read what I could find on the net about different types of affairs and now I'm 100% SURE my H's affair is an "Exit affair".
It was sad reading - No cure - nothing I can do, right?

Star... I read your comments on my Plan b letter and decided to wait a while before sending it. I appreciate your offer to help me write the english version! Thanks! Maybe your help will be needed soon. Plan B is for me - Exit affair or not.

WH and I both attended the meeting at S's school last wednesday. We didn't talk and I placed myself far from him. We were supposed to talk after the meeting but WH was gone! I didn't wait more than a minute before I left and picked up S at my parents. S and I drowe home and when we arrived WH came by on his bicycle... a coincidence - the shortest distance from school (and from his work) to his new home goes by "our" house. He was a little surprised I just left the school and didn't wait for him to get ready - I said "I thought you were in a hurry and left before me" he told me he ran to get to the bathroom and after that he looked for me and then left. We talked a little about the meeting and school and he left.
WH was here half an hour today on my request - I wanted to make the new visitation schedule - now I don't have to see or talk to WH before christmas.

Plan B is still on my mind even though I no longer see reconciliation as a possibility in my situation.
Exit affair - how does the MB/Harleys deal with that?

I forgot to tell you some important things about WH's visit today - I was in a very good mood. I used to use humour a lot before when I needed to get closer to him - he liked that.
Since WH moved in with OW he has had a BAD reddish skin rash (hm... not sure that's what it's called) around his left eye - today I noticed it had spread to around the other eye as well - and it was getting worse. He told me that he had seen a doctor several times and he said it was stress-related. I said "Stress - you never had stress - you are not stressed now, are you?". "Of course not" he said. Then I said with a BIG smile in my voice "it is your punishment from above". "hehe, yeah right..." he said and then left.
Hmmmm... see how little we communicate, eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi Danish
Glad to see you again.
How have you been.I mean you not your situation but you.
I think of you often and wonder sometimes what is worse.Getting over them leaving,or getting over what they have done when they stay.Each has a down side to it.
For you,you know just how your H feels.For me I question daily,is he here because he loves me?Is he here because this is what is right?Does he still think of her?
You know all that stuff.It is so hard either way.
I do admire your strength,send some this way ok. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> How is your S doing?
If you are able keep posting so we know just how you are,we all care so much about you.
Take care and talk to you soon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Ginger... glad to see you too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I feel good most of the time. I think a lot about what went wrong in my marriage though.
My subconciousness is giving me some dreams at night and I use to let go of my WH and move on with my life.
A few days ago I had a dream where WH was back home and he immediately began to criticize me - In this dream I asked him to leave again if he did not have any love to offer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
In my dream last night WH came to me for SF. He told me he missed my body. I rejected him and told him that I had no intention to be with him before he ended his R with OW.
Cool dreams - they make me smile at myself and in a way they help me to see that I am OK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am not angry - I have forgiven WH - I love him and want the best for him. I know that I am a good person and there is no reason why I shouldn't like me as I am now. I know that my behaviour through all of this has been the very best I could master, so I'm quite proud of myself. I consider this HIS loss - more than it is mine... I feel sorry for him and the turbulence he brought into his life.
WH said that he wanted someone to make him happy - and that is one of the reasons why he did what he did - I wonder if he will ever see that only he can make him happy in the long run? I believe that each person is resposible for his own happiness. We have to find happiness and joy inside ourselves and share it with our loved ones.

My life is good - even the days where I feel sorry for myself are good days. I learn something new every day and that is a true blessing. I will not waste my time crying when the world is filled with opportunities and love.

Ginger - I don't know what my husband feels - I haven't a clue - and maybe you don't know what your H thinks either. Maybe they don't know what they feel. Maybe they are as confused as we are? What comes out of our mouths when we speak are often not mirroring the true feelings. We are practicing communication skills all the time but words have a tendency to be insufficient. The soul has its own agenda and all things happen for a reason.

Be strong Ginger - a wonderful future is waiting around the next corner. You ARE strong. Believe in your strength and anything is possible. Don't expect anyone to "save" you before you have saved youself - grab life by the throat and shake it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Take care! It means a lot to me that you are here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Dear H

I hope you’ll read this letter and the two pages from the diary I wrote while you were travelling through Spain. I missed you so much and by sending you these pages I want you to get a picture of why I felt so much pain when I discovered the truth about your journey. Maybe you’ll be able to understand why I didn’t want to separate from you when you came home.
It is important to me that you know some of my feelings and thoughts at that time.
Please read them and this letter!
------------------
Once again I would like to acknowledge and apologize for my share of what tempted you to have an affair. Sometimes I didn’t respond to your needs, and many times I failed at showing you the deep love and respect I felt for you – instead of talking to you about our emotions, I distanced myself from you. I regret that.
All my life I was always afraid that the people I loved the most should leave me or die… I was not aware that I pushed my loved ones away from me – to protect myself from being hurt when they died or left me – it’s hard to explain… I don’t fully understand why I acted that way, but through therapy I’m finding the answers I should have tried to find a long time ago, in order to feel better and be true to my soul.
When you left for Spain I decided that I would work on my fear and become more whole as a person… but that’s history now.
For a long time I had a great deal of my attention focused on S - I am truly sorry that this from time to time took my focus away from the importance of spending leisure time with you and nurturing our relationship as sweethearts.
Of course I should have said yes when we got the opportunity to move to the flat in march.
I am proud to say that I now am the person I and you always wanted me to be.
As I have told you before I am willing to do what it takes for you and I to recreate our family and renew our love and respect for each other - that we could be true lovers and equal partners who would support each other and have an unbreakable friendship.
---------------------------
The step I now must take has been in my thoughts for some time – it’s not one of choice but one of necessity – purely to protect and preserve the feelings I still have for you. It hurts every time I see you when I know you live with another woman. It affects my mood – every time I have met you or spoken with you on the phone I feel pain and sadness because I miss you so much.
I hope you understand that I don’t want to destroy anything, but that I must do this to heal and protect myself.
From now on I do not wish to meet you or speak with you.
When it is absolutely necessary we have contact I want it to be by mail or Email.
In emergency situations related to S. let’s use the phone.

I ask you to respect my wish to be separated from you this way.

If at some point you end your relationship with OW, and if you want to wholeheartedly wish for you and I to try and create a loving and truly different future together, I would be very happy to meet you and speak with you again.
Now I must move on making life wonderful for S and me.

I love you deeply.
I will never forget what a fantastic man you were.
I am confident that you will continue to be good father for S.

Take care my love…

---Danish

Danish,
I have been so busy and out of town for a few days and I missed your post.
Thank you for the kind words they were just what I needed today.
I guess God knew today was the day I needed to read them not the day they were wrote.

I was doing so well,focusing on me and knowing that happiness must come from within,not from my H.But I have had a major set back.I hope this is normal.
Sometimes I look at my H and all I see is a man that cheated on me.That did not find me valuable enough to protect me.That did not cherish me or our life enough to withhold from being w/another woman.Somedays the pain is so deep I feel I don't want to try anymore.

Reading your words and your stength did help me.I need to somehow get past this and believe him when he says he loves me.I need to learn to trust him,it is so hard.

Danish I do hope that you will keep in touch,I feel like I have walked a long hard road w/you.You have become a part of my life.I think of you daily and always pray the best for you that life has to offer.May God send you peace right now when you need it most.
Take care my friend.

email me if you want gingerbread1023@yahoo.com

Danish:

That was beautiful. If I were your H, I'd be back to you in a flash. Question: when you do have to have contact with him, how does he respond to you?

Ginger:

I'm really worried about you. Is this only an anniversary/trigger thing that's upsetting you or has this been going on for a while? So not to rain on Danish, you can respond on my thread. What positives (actions) can you see from your H's behaviour compared to last year and now? As I see it, you've already done the hard part. You can get past this too.

Hi Danish,
You don't know me but I am in VA beach also and am wondering if you know of any good marriage therapist. Please help I am really sorry for my affairs and want some help to discover why they happened.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Danish}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Bump*Bump*Bump <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Danish,

I'm new to MB and was really moved by your story.

Don't know what an "exit affair" is; it's not an MB term. It's natural to feel that WH will never come back but remember some facts:

97% of relationships built on affairs will fail, and

last time you saw WH he had a rash on his face due to stress!!!

So why is WH stressed?

Because when he was having the affair with OW it was all "quality time" and now they have to cope with all the more mundane issues of everyday life and I absolutely guarantee that there's some tensions in the relationship, because he's missing you and wondering if he made the right decision, because OW is going to have to leave the country at some point and is trying to get him to commit to go with her and because deep down inside he's carrying a burden of guilt.

WH and OW have only been living together for three months, although I know it must seem like half a lifetime to you. If I was forced to bet my savings I wouldn't bet on them being together in three month's time.

Hang on in there.

Bringing the in-laws into the picture was an obvious attempt to make the relationship legitimate. Don't assume it went well. In the whole history of the world there's never been a relationship with in-laws that was instantly easy.

I'm praying for you.

>>>> Ginger - I hope you are ok! You are in my prayers.

>>>> SAB - Thank you! I kope you and your H are doing great still!

>>>> nikol - I live in Denmark, Europe, not VA beach, so I can't help you I'm afraid.

>>>> lovesaved - thank you so much for your encouragement and your kind words - I hope you're right!

UPDATE:
Last monday I cried like a baby for hours... my parents had to comfort me and hold me like they did when I was a child. All in all it was a good experience and it made me feel very privileged and loved. This was the first time I've cried for months and in a strange way I think I needed it.

This wednesday evening WH and I was in the church attending a meeting about our S's confirmation in may next year. We talked like a normal couple and I noticed that the rash on his face wasn't any better!
I felt good and I know I looked good. New haircut, new pants, - me, slim and sexy. He was always very attracted to my body so I hope he noticed.
When we left the church and we talked a little (smalltalk) and I reached out for his hand to say goodbye and he hugged me for the first time since D-day.

Funny - I'm REALLY, really good at not LB'ing. Why can't he just love me? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Danish
I have been wondering and worrying about you.You sound strong as always.We all need to cry,it cleanses the soul.You are so blessed to have the support from your parents,I am glad that they are there for you.
I am ok.Thanks for asking.Life is difficult right now but I know it will pass like everything else.
Please keep posting so that we know how you are doing.
I miss you when you are not around. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Danish,

Really good to hear from you again.

You wrote: "I felt good and I know I looked good. New haircut, new pants, - me, slim and sexy. He was always very attracted to my body so I hope he noticed."

Did he notice? I'll bet he did.

Q. How do you tell if a man's thinking about sex?

A. If he's breathing!

See also my personal history on page 53 (or is it now 54) of Cerri's general thread for discussion of MB issues.

SAB - Thank you! I kope you and your H are doing great still!

Yes we are! There are still alot of ups and downs but will get there. He's finally coming around.

Ginger - Hope you're ok now!

LoveSaved - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Thanks

SAB - I'm very happy to hear that your marriage is better!

Update:
Suddently a few weeks ago I was offered a wonderful apartment. Since then I've been very busy because I'll move from the house in 3 weeks from now. I'm SO, so happy and my son is too. The apartment is 5 min. walk from his school... all his classmates lives in this neighborhood and my parents have a house right next to the school. The largest park in my city is 200 feet from my (very small) garden.
Next sunday WH will help me clean and clear the house and remove what still remains of his stuff here (lots!).

I feel stronger and stronger each day now. WH always wanted us to get that apartment, and now I've got it!
Everyday at work it strikes me how nice and caring my colleagues are compared to my WH, and I think - why would I want a person in my life who does not love me or care for me? Who lives with another woman and don't give a sh** how I am.
Every time I'm with friends and family my thoughts are the same.
My life is much better than I could have hoped for a few months ago... I'm actually happy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Maybe WH wakes up one day - maybe it's already too late.

[ November 12, 2003, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: Danish ]

Hi again... really good to hear from you and know that you're OK.

You wrote...
"Maybe WH wakes up one day - maybe it's already too late."

I'm pro marriage and I hope you two get back together but I also know that you've been betrayed and are very hurt. If your H comes back he will need to understand this.

Hi Danish,

I don't think I ever responded to you, but I've read your thread. I'm glad you are happy now.

HI Danish
I have wondered about you so much.
I am so happy for you.I guess no matter what God does bless us.Sometimes we don't see it right away.Look at you,although it does not take the place of your family God gave you a desire of your heart,the apt.
I hope that as each day passes you become stronger and stronger.
Take care my friend,you are still always in my thoughts.

Thanks!!!!

I thought I was beginning to get over this but I'm afraid I'm not afterall... not that I cry or anything like that but his actions still makes me mad and sad.

Sunday WH was here to help me get rid of a lot of old stuff from the 11 years we have lived together in this house (Son and I am moving out in 2 weeks). It was an ok experience and I did great - I was relieved when he left after 5 hours though.
I've sent him E-mails (6 since he left in june) and he never replied to any of them. All of them was about S, school and so on. I asked him if he would please send a short reply to let me know he got them because there has been some trouble with his E-mail account.
This evening I sent him an E-mail about an urgent meeting at S's school. I was short in writing but all my mails end with "love from" me.
This time he did reply as I asked him to, but the reply was - Quote: "Read, 'his name'."

Now I have to ask: Why is he so cold still? It's been almost 5 months he's been living with OW - he should be a happy man now. I just don't get it!

Another incident that happened sunday... I told WH that my dad wondered if he (WH) had borrowed his sledgehammer... WH answered in a VERY angry tone that he didn't. I was/am surprised why WH would be mad at my dad too???
I kept my cool and didn't LB all day - now I wonder - again - what this is all about?

Defensive/passive agressive - that's the words i was looking for. My WH is never acting like he's angry - just that tone in his voice and that odd smile that isn't a smile but only a "face" he's putting on.
I know my english isn't the best - I hope you know what I mean? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Danish,

Your English is amazing. Don't ever worry about posting here because of it. If you didn't mention where you are from no one here would ever guess. Well the Brits might claim your English needs touching up because you have color, but no colour. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am glad things are working out well for you.

God Bless,

JL

Danish my friend I have been wondering about you.I am glad that you are doing better and good luck on the move.I know this is a place you have wanted for a long time so I hope you and S will be very happy there.

All I can say about your WH is,I don't think he is happy and his only offense is a defense.In other words he must protect himself by acting in a defensive manner.I don't think he can stand it that you have been able to go on with life and be happy with out him.Maybe life with the OW is not as wonderful as he would like you to believe.

Keep us updated.
I sure miss you when you don't post.

Maybe reality has cracked his armour. It makes him feel uncomfortable. This may scare him. Some men when they get scared, show it through anger. That could explain what's happening.

There may be hope yet.

I'm glad you're happy my friend. All the best.

Danish we love you!

You may feel that your English as a second language doesn't always say what you want to say but the rest of us feel that we understand completely. In fact you tell us how you feel very well. And show yourself as a very good person.

Thank you for the sweet words - {{{{ JL, Ginger, SAB, Lovesaved! }}}}

I'm very busy these days - trying to get organised bills, letters and documents from all the years (11) we have lived in this house. I find all kinds of stuff - photos, loveletters, letters from S's school, drawings, things we bought together - can you imagine how it is? Triggers all over the place!

BUT - I'm doing OK... I know I must do this and I'm doing it... throwing things away... the evidence of my marriage and the testimonials of my love for H.
The love for him remains though - and that is all that matters to me. He can't take that away and I want to hold on to it for a while.

Our son is getting a lot of positive attention from school. His teachers told us that he's gifted and has a great personality. They told us that he is full of initiative and superb when it comes to cooperation... one teacher said "He's such a positive and happy boy that I smile every time I look at him".
What more can a mother ask for?
I'm looking forward to moving to the apatment sunday.

WH? I love him deeply. He's living with OW. Nothing I can do about it. She's leaving Denmark right after christmas I know for sure. My focus is directed to MY life and my SON's life. I'll leave WH to his own deamons and to make up his mind on his own.

I WILL (hope to succeed on my own if he's not joining me!

tw - I hope you don't think I'm insensitive. I just cannot let months or even weeks go by without a smile - it's against my nature. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

[ November 26, 2003, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Danish ]

Hi Danish
Good to hear from you.I am glad that you are able to move on.I must do the same but am finding it so hard but I know I must let go and try and believe that he really does love me not just settling for me because I am the easy choice or what he is comfortable with.

I pray only for happiness and peace in your life and your sons.

Good luck with your move.
Keep us posted.

You're a much stronger woman than I. My hat is off to you. I'm glad things are going as well as they can be at this time.

{{{{{{{{{{Danish}}}}}}}}}

{{{{{SAB - Ginger - and everyone who helped me in the past}}}}} BIG cyberhugs for you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Today I can honestly say that I left all the pain and frustration behind me.

S and I moved out of the house 2 weeks ago. Our new apartment is absolutely wonderful - we both feel very much at home. WH didn't lift a finger to help us move out... sigh... but that's fine with me - as a part of his "new" personality <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

What more can I say? Hm... letting go feels great! Not that I don't love him - not that I don't want him back... but I just love life more and I'm not letting him ruin it, no way!

Danish,

How wonderful for you! I'm so pleased about your new apartment. I suspect that the person who suggested your husband is not angry at you is correct. I have a feeling that fantasyland may not be all that it's cracked up to be and seeing you move on and get the apartment you two always wanted has upset him more than you know. He probably has some jealousy about both the apartment and your ability to continue to be happy. Another emotion that often comes out as anger and resentment is guilt. I think he must feel pretty badly about himself when he faces the family he deserted....even when he receives letters about the son whose life he should be a part of. His anger is actually a good thing...and a positive sign...so don't let it ruffle your feathers.

I have a small suggestion. Just because you cannot love bust, does not mean that you cannot confront him with your feelings about the way he deals with you. Next time it's necessary to converse with him....try telling him something along these lines: DH, I'm confused about the fact that you always appear angry when we talk to each other. Seems to me, that if anyone has cause to be angry, it would be me...and since I've moved past those feelings I'm wondering why you are still stuck there. Could you explain to me why you still seem so angry and cold? It would help all of us, especially DS, if the few times we need to deal with each other could be pleasant.

Confronting him with your feelings is a part of this process....even the healing process. It empowers you and presents you as a stronger person, in control of your own emotions while he is obviously not.

hugs to you!!! My thoughts are so often with you and your struggles. Good luck and God Bless you. I hope your first holiday in your new home is wonderful.

Hi Danish
So good to hear from you.I guess it was about 6m ago or so we both showed up here on this site wow alot has happened hasn't it.
For me the 1yr mark of D-day has come and gone.The feelings I hold inside are still very painful.I am now more angry than hurt.I wonder some days if I truly love my H anymore I know I care deeply for him and still can not imagine life without him the deep love that I once had,that we once shared is not there for me.He has done very little to help me,and I believe it has taken its toll on me.He has asked me twice in the last 6wks or so if I love him,I dont know.Sometime I think it would have been easier if he just would have left me completely.
I guess for all of us here only time will tell.If my H truly loves me and wants only me in his life and our family then I guess he will wake up one day and do what needs to be done to keep us together.

You are so strong,I am so very proud of you.
Take care my friend.
May God bless you and your son.
Love GS

Danish,

Everything you write shows what a good person you are. Out of all the stories on this site yours has hit me the hardest and I'm praying for you that 2

Merry Christmas!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
A russian friend of mine send me this story a couple of days ago - I thought it was sweet - and today I want to share it with you:

Two traveling angels, a young and an older one, came to a wealthy family on Christmas eve. They asked the man in the house if they could stay the night, and he showed them a small cold room in the basement where they could sleep.
The rich family had a wonderful evening meal – all they gave the angels was some water and a tiny piece of bread to share.
When it was time for the angels to go to sleep, the old angel discovered a small hole in the wall next to the mattress and the old angel repaired the hole immediately.
The young angel asked her “Why did you fix the hole?”
The old angel answered very cryptic “ Things are almost never what you believe they are”.

The following night the angels came to a poor mans house. His family shared their dinner with the angels and when it was time to go to bed, the angels was offered the only bedroom in the house – the poor man and his family slept on the floor that night.
When they woke up the next morning they found the host and his wife crying. Their only cow was dying on the field.
The young angel was really mad and asked the older angel how she could permit something like this to happen. “The rich man and his family were cruel to us – and you helped them fix the hole in the wall! This poor man and his family gave us everything and yet you let his only cow die!!!

The old angel said “Things are not always what we think they are” – “In the cold cellar I saw gold in that hole – that’s why I fixed it – so that the rich man would never find it. He already had enough.”
”Tonight when you all were asleep, Death came to pick up the poor mans wife – I gave him the cow instead. In time he’ll be happy again”
“Nothing is what it seems to be”

Sometimes there will be events in our lives that makes us very, very sad. Some people will disappear from our lives – leaving nothing but sad or beautiful traces. Other people will stay in our lives for ever.

Nothing is what it seems.
Yesterday is history.
Tomorrow is a stranger yet unknown.
Today is a present – that’s why it’s called “The present”

Live and enjoy every moment – you never know…….

A happy Christmas to you all… Take care!
Thanks for being in my life when I needed you the most!
{{{{{{{{{Star*, Ginger, SAB, Lovesaved, Zorweb, Espoir and many, many others}}}}}}}}

Thank you for that beautiful story Danish. I'm hoping you find happiness this holiday season with your wonderful son and family.

What a wonderful story thank you.
How are Danish??
I think of all the wonderful people I have met here on MB had it not been for something very bad our lives would have never touched one another.I am so thankful for my friends here and the encouragment I have found when I needed it most.
May God Bless your life Danish in 2004.You are an angel to so many without even knowing it.

Take care my friend
Love Ginger

Hi there!
Actually I'm a bit worried about my sons upcoming birthday (friday).

WH called the other day and said that he'll come to S's birthday - "your family have not seen me after we split, and they might as well get used to it" I said that "we" didn't split and he said "after I left you then" - my sister is the only member of my family who have met him (dec.) since he left me in june. WH said that he could feel that she was not comfortable in his presence. I asked him if he felt ok and he said "yes of course, why shouldn't I".

I want so much to tell him that if my family acts a bit strange when they meet him, it's because they don't like what he did to me! My dad is furious at WH because he - my dad - did all the work in our old house that WH should have done. WH is acting very arrogant about it all - acting like HE did all the right things and me and my family are scum.
The truth is - I don't want him here at S's birthday - but I have to, I know... what else can I do but invite him and MIL?

Christmas was nice. S was at MIL's together with WS, OW, MIL, SIL and a cousin.

Danish,

My dear....there is plenty you can do! You can tell him that he and his mother can have your son before or after the party that you have planned for him, because it would be awkward for them to be included. You are not obliged to entertain him in your house....and in Plan B...YOU SHOULD NOT! Don't let him manipulate you this way. He can plan his own birthday celebration for your son....parents who are separated do it all the time. He's not treating you well enough to invite himself to your home. Even if this is for your son....do you honestly think it will be comfortable for him either? I don't.

Hi Danish
I agree with Star.He left you he left his family that means he left the family functions also.It was his choice not yours,not your sons, his.

I wanted to ask you is OW still in Denmark or did she have to leave and go home??

Hello again - and Happy Newyear to you all.

First I want to tell you I'm not in Plan B - sometimes I feel like I kinda just gave up on my M, but most of the time I'm quite satisfied by the way I handle it all.
OW is still living with WH and from what my son tells me they are doing great. They spent christmas together with WH's entire family at MIL's place. According to my son OW will leave Denmark at the end of january. WH is planning to visit her in Australia at the end of July.

Anyway - I thought a lot about what you wrote Ginger and Star* . I know that WH shouldn't have the benefit of being at my place for S's birthday but S told me that he so much wanted his dad to be here... so, well... I decided that I'm the adult here and I've been going through worse scenarios than that... so, I called WH and MIL and told them they were welcome here.
I even asked WH if he would bake and bring some of his "famous" bread (hm - buns?) and he did.

My parents, my sister and brother and their spouses and kids were here too and it all went very well. Everyone praised my apartment and said many nice things - even MIL was full of admiration of the way I decorated and painted - of course WH didn't say a word but I'm sure he thinks its a great apartment and that I did a great job if he allows himself to think and behave in a positive manner.
Fortunately all of my family members treated WH with respect and talked like they use to (but never asked him a question or mentioned anything about his life or OW)- we talk and laugh a lot in my family and everyone had a wonderful afternoon. I invited them all to stay for pizza but WH wanted to go home and MIL went too... my family stayed and S was happy they did.

WH didn't feel comfortable at all I could tell - in which way I do not know? It surprised me a little that the birthdaycard from WH only was signed "dad" - not a word about OW - considering S knows her VERY well! In fact she is always there when he visits his dad.
I suppose WH is still "protecting" me from her in his own way... hm? I haven't met her and I plan not to, ever! I always act and talk like she does not exist.

Long story about almost nothing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> - I hope you forgive me.

Ginger - are you ok? I hope so!

Hi Danish
Your story was not about nothing it was about your life and that is what we want to hear and know about.

As for me I have run into some rough roads here on the road to recovery.LOL
I'm not sure if I will make it but know that I have to.How I wish I had your strength and courage.

I am happy the party turned out so well for you and your family and keep us updated on your life we have been here since the beginning together and I worry and wonder about you all the time.

If you want to email me do so and we can talk that way.
heres my address:
gingerbread1023@yahoo.com

send me a note anytime would love to hear from you.
Take care my friend
Love Ginger