...I'm asking you to help me because your previous posts has been very helpful to me and b/c you know my story.

What options are left for me?
I didn't consider Plan B a good idea in my situation because WH is not trying to chose between me and OW. He has clearly chosen OW. Family and friends knows everything.

Please be honest with me! Is there ANY hope for me to win my WH back (I feel hope is lost) - and what is the best approach for me in order to do so?
I see it as my WH detatched from me when he was in Spain 9/4 - 15/5 and that now he don't like to be reminded of my existence. I wonder if it's best for me if I contact him more often. It is my impression (knowing my WH) that if I can manage to do the 180 or something similar to what LOSTVA did, it would probably work much better than Plan B would - if anything at all.

One little thing - only one need of his is he asking me to meet: help with the computer. It's in his home now and there are lots of things he don't know how to fix. He called me today to get my help but this is the only thing he needs me for - not enough to Plan B on... I think.

Today is our 14th anniversary. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />
I thought of sending him 14 red roses but I didn't... OW would recieve them b/c WH is at work

<small>[ January 06, 2004, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: Danish ]</small>

Hi Danish,

How are you doing today on your anniversary? How are you managing? I know how difficult significant dates can be.

I'm wondering what is going to happen when the OW goes back to Australia. I'm wondering if you want to take the opportunity of your H needing your help learning the computer as a way of starting a Plan A with him then? The OW will be out of sight (if not out of mind) and not accesssible. He will be seeing you in a different light then having to be completely on his own for the first time. What do you think--a possibility?

Hi Danish

Me Ginger,
I know my name is not there but I thought you would not mind me popping in.I don't know what to say I am so sorry,first your birthday now your aniversary.Let me tell you that I think you are a wonderful person and you deserve a life of happiness.I will continue to pray that God will open you WH eyes.

Thanks a lot, SAB & Ginger! I appreciate your posts!

SAB - I like your idea about me helping WH with the computer stuff when OW is gone. I've been following your thread "Where do I go from here?" - how are YOU doing?
Ginger - I never mind you 'popping in' <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> - I like to hear how you're doing and I'm happy that you pray for me & WH. Now there is a whole year before I have to through those sad birthday and anniversary emotions again.

I'm so obsessed with Lostva's story - I want to "adopt" her way of doing things because I feel it would be the best path for me - well, for almost anyone in my situation. Is it wrong of me and should I leave MB if I'm not doing it "by the book"?

Please don't leave I will miss you.

I think like anything you use the tools of MB the best you are able.Every situation is different and sometimes you take the best of several different aproaches and make it work for you.

Hang in there we are all here for you.

I think you have to go by your gut instinct as to what you think is best in your situation. You know your H best.

I think Plan A (meaning, you demonstrate a willingness to meet his emotional needs) is useful for reconnecting with your mate when distance has been created over the years. In your case, your WS created the distance when he went off on his trip and emotionally cut himself off from you. Before a WS can think about coming back, he has to visualize what he is coming back to.

Therefore your instincts might be right on target. If I recall correctly, after he came back, he made his plans for OW to come and he moved out into his parent's basement? So again, the disconnection continued and is now complete, especially since he is living with OW now.

Plan B is good for when a WS is cakeeating- carrying on the A, refusing to give it up, despite all the attempts of the BS to meet emotional needs.

I don't know that I can completely advise you properly. But, one strategy could be, to go over there, help him with the computer, and if you can stomach it, even interact with the OW. Get in her face, but in a really subtle way.

Some strategies-

-tell her that even though you are devastated when your H walked out, you had no idea he was unhappy- you don't hold it against her, and you of course want your WH to be happy, so that your son can have a stable environment. Tell her you want to work with her and your WS and that you will be able to heal and survive (as long as your WH meets his child care obligations- meaning pay child support) which of course he must do, he is not the type to be a deadbeat dad. (OW should know if WS doesn't pay for his son- you can act all friendly and confide in her). And in any case, WS MUST PAY. (Is he paying by the way? Can you get the money taken out of his paycheck?)

-call your WS when you know the OW is there, keep him on the phone speaking in Danish. Perhaps enlist a few friends to do the same.

-come over and help him with his computer- preferably when she is there. Act real friendly with her. Even make an effort to speak in English so you look like you are being nice and when you do, talk about family times or stuff that you shared with him in front of her. Historical stuff or injokes between you and your H. Be ultra helpful to your WS. OW will get sick of you hanging around and start to LB and tell WS to get rid of you. WS in the meantime will love having two women meeting his needs.

-Bring your son over frequently, tell her you're happy if he can have two families now. Let son spend LOTS and LOTS of time with them. Tell them you don't want your son to lose his father, and that when they have their new children, you want your son to feel a part of their family.

-Be ultra FRIENDLY with WS. Flirt with him, laugh with him, joke with him, pretend you are moving on. You are hurt by his decision of course, but you only want his happiness. Then do as much as you can to have fun on your own.

-Give this treatment three to four months if you can stand it and see what happens once OW and WS start to get to know each other. In effect, be the "Other Woman" yourself. OW will not be too happy once she is part of a triangle. She will start to LB and demand that WS not see you etc. She also won't be so happy when she is spending all this time with your son hanging around.

-In the meantime, work hard on yourself. Try to quit smoking (especially if OW doesn't smoke), work out etc. Get out there, meet new people and have fun!

Have to go now, more thoughts to follow.....

{{{{{{{{{Danish,}}}}}}}}}}}}}}

Though I have not posted to you in a while I have been keeping up on your progress. You are as usual doing very well. But even then this is not easy. My heart goes out to you, it is so unfair.

It does seem that things have changed a bit and maybe Plan B will not work as well right now. Working your way back into his life so that you have a chance to Plan A him does sound wise.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it wrong of me and should I leave MB if I'm not doing it "by the book"?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will reread Lostva’s story to see why you think she is doing things that are not by the book. Could you share with us what you think is not by the book? Then I’ll be able to give some feedback that is useful.

espoir, you are down right evil and I love it. The only problem I see with this approach is if Danish can handle it. It could be hard… but you know about payback ….

About your MIL and all the affairs, etc. in your H’s family, it is a learned behavior in many ways. Obviously this is how he learned to take care of life’s little ups and down.

I know that you want your husband back. But please do things for yourself. Start moving on even while you Plan A him. I do not mean for you to see another man of course. But do start to pursue activities that you like. You are so artistic. What do you do with your art? Are you in any shows or galleries? Why not try if you are not. Or if you are, expand.

Danish,

I am so worried that I will confuse you, but I want to give you my honest thoughts and they are a bit different from espoir and Zorweb. One thing that I know about Harley's concepts are that they often go against our natural instincts. Everyone wants to stay in Plan A so long, because they are afraid of the alternative. If anything, you've stayed in Plan A too long. You did one of the most excellent Plan As of anyone I have seen on the board and your husband is well aware of the kind of wife that you can be to him.

It may seem to you, that you don't have much leverage, but I think you have more than you know. Right now, his relationship with this OW is new and hasn't yet undergone the natural problems that occur in a relationship. Statistics say, that there is a 97% chance that within 6 months, it will be over. Further, he has her....and you have nothing, except his selfish desire for you to help him with the computer. He is using you. He may not need much.....YET, but right now, when he does....you are there. To me, this puts you in a unprotected situation where you are periodiocally exposed to more pain and harm. If you don't stop seeing him altogether, he will continue to use you and the stress and opportunity for Love Busting will eventually arise. If he compares the two of you.....let it be a comparison of what it was like to live with you....not what he has destroyed with his stupidity.

Your instinct will be to give him more....and he will take more....but I don't believe it will help your situation. He now needs to believe that his safety net is GONE. That you are ready to move on with your life. He needs to be able to look at the OW and find out all the ways she CAN'T fill your shoes....because you won't be there at all. It's much easier to hang on to the few connections that you still have....your dog, the computer....but they are just wisps and shadows.

There are many reasons to do a Plan B. Only one of them is to stop cake eating....which he is doing...not much....but some. The other reasons are if you are losing your love (you aren't), but the best reason is because he refuses to stop contact with the OW.

You did your Plan A. You did it for long enough and you did it well enough that if it was the answer....it would have helped by now. It is my opinion that you should go to a Plan B....a complete and total Plan B with zero contact. Let him remember your perfect Plan A while he struggles with his computer and gets frustrated and takes it out on her. Let them have their first fight while you spend some time nourishing your soul and using your energy on yourself.

I think a 180 would be far more meaningful if you were still living together. You see too little of him for it to be effective in this situation in my opinion...but get a second opinion Danish because I am just one voice. Let's go and post to cerri on her thread...huh?

I know this is a scary step for you, but the number one, all time, most common mistake in these plans.....is staying in Plan A too long. Another Plan A will exhaust you and not give you the energy you need to pursue your own path while he is making up his mind. You have an opportunity to be better off in Plan B....no matter what his decision is.

You asked if I thought this is hopeless. I do not. Not by a long shot. I have no question that his relationship with this woman will end. When it does.....you may or may not want him back anymore, because you will have been moving forward instead of hovering in limbo all of the time he has wasted.

(((((((((((((Danish)))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((Danish)))))))))))))))

<small>[ July 29, 2003, 10:48 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Danish,

Star brings up many very valid points. She has a very good grasp on all of this.

Earlier I said: “espoir, you are down right evil and I love it. The only problem I see with this approach is if Danish can handle it. It could be hard… but you know about payback ….”

The problems are that I don’t think you could handle it with no harm to you emotionally. There is also a huge potential for back firing. You can never control what another person does. But you can control what you do. What keeps coming to mind is that plan A’ing too long is not good.

The beauty of Plan B is that you are not trying to manipulate anyone. The WS and OW would know where you stand. You would be protected. There is great wisdom in this.

Now that you have had time to contemplate the options. What do you think?

I want to thank you all from the bottom of my heart for your honest thoughts and excellent help.
You girls are so bright and wonderful!!!!!!

I'm still not 100% sure what to do though <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

---------------------------------------------------

>>>> espoir

Reconnection is exactly why I (maybe) want to stay in Plan A a little longer.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> call your WS when you know the OW is there, keep him on the phone speaking in Danish. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I like that... and I have been doing it a lot when he was in Spain, but not recently. I haven't called him more than 3 or 4 times since he left. I don't think I could go to his apartment and meet OW though... but it would be a blast <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Perhaps enlist a few friends to do the same. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's not possible I'm afraid... it is now "My friends" and "his friends". I called "his", told them what was going on and said goodbye to them. WH didn't talk to any of "my friends" after this, even though they were the couples we spent most of our time with. I'm sure he'll miss their company after a while - he has only 3 old friends of his own and the two of them are single males.

---------------------------------------------------

>>>> Zorweb

Lostva did Plan A forever. That's what I mean when I say she didn't do it by the book. She never went to Plan B. Lostva became her WH's best friend and eventually he came back to her and stayed. She continually showed Robert her love and respect even when he lived with OW.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know that you want your husband back. But please do things for yourself. Start moving on even while you Plan A him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am doing things for myself - learning new skills every day. Learning what I HAVE to do for me (and S) to have a good life with or without WH. I'm quite proud of my progress - I just need to get rid of the cigarettes, and I'm determined to do so!

--------------------------------------------------

>>>> Star*fish

I understand why you think I should go to Plan B and why it can be very effective in many cases. You're right - Plan B IS scary!
A few weeks before OW leaves Denmark would be the perfect time to implement Plan B in my case I think - IF I'm able to continue a tremendous Plan A. If not, I promise you I'll go into Plan B sooner!

Even though I did a fairly good Plan A while WH was still in the house, it was way too short - and he was not paying attention at all. I also think I acted a little too independent and he got the impression that I was bitter at times - that's what HE remembers I think. You know - I packed his things and the photos, I asked him to go live at his moms place, I was putting pressure on him all the time and asked him to choose between me and OW.
After he moved out I am doing it a little better - but still not good enough.

I just KNOW I have to change some things about myself - issues I've had with rejection of WH in the past, not telling him in a loving and respectful way how I felt, bad habits I know he hated, - many things he needed that I didn't give him.
Leisure time together was essential to him (and to me) - I know that now - but I was way too engaged in my son all the time. WH didn't fill my needs 100% either and if we ever decide to reconcile it's going to be hard work for both of us.

I wish I could show him I have changed my focus. I loved him and admired him deeply and still do - I want so much to SHOW him that, even though it might be too late!

I hope you wont see this as if I did not tell you the truth about my M earlier! New thoughts develop every day and as I analyse myself and my behaviours deeper, I realize I have a lot to change and have changed a lot already - for ME. I didn't really love ME before.

-------------------------------------------------

My love for WH is very strong and it wont fade in the near future no matter what - he is in the fog and I know he lied to himself before he lied to me. I can bare with that, knowing I in a way stand stronger than he.

Your thoughts on what I just wrote will be highly appreciated as always <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Danish,

Just wanted to say that am also living in DK.

I think that when Lostva Plan A:d her H forever, she also communicated to him that whatever he does it is o.k, she will be loving and understanding without setting any boundaries. She became his best friend and he knows that should he ever be weak again, it will somehow work out. He loses nothing by being weak, only gains.

I think it is a natural consequence to all the hurt, to at one point say "enough is enough", you are continuing to hurt me, no matter how hard I try and it makes me angry, so I have to do for eg. a Plan B or a 180, to make you understand that I deserve to be treated with respect.

I have a hard time showing my anger. I have a hard time turning around, being strong and a woman in my own right. Its easier to cling and feel guilty that all of this is happening. I think all of us BS know how we have neglected our spouses, the trouble is that we drown ourselves in it, and forget that we have been neglected too.

I think that espoirs advice, even though it sounds SO tough to do, sounds like it would get your H to see you. Because it is you that acts like the OW, and he sees sides of you (at the other side of the fence) that he did not see before. It will get him thinking. All of a sudden this clingy woman is getting over him and is happy, excited, caring, supportive...That is called scrambling his head and making him very confused, because the real OW will know what you are doing and start LB him. Reality will hit him harder. She will ask him to get you out of their life, but he won´t want it because you add value to HIS life, so he will tell her that she has to live with it because you have a son together.

My advise is to do the 180 degrees. I think TooMuchCoffeeMan has a list of the dos and not to dos on his signature line. You can´t do a really good Plan A because you aren´t living together. You can´t do a Plan B because your Plan A was too short. So whats left? An 180 degrees. Be pleasant, have class, show support, no LB´s, but show that you are strong and moving on with your life.

When you feel you need to cry, shout, hurt. Do it where he cannot see it.

-queen-

P.S Until a few days ago my id was Queen of a broken heart, but because of a lost password made a new id that was similar

Oh and make sure when you help him with the computer that you smell nice, look sexy as anything and bring him his favourite danish pastry ;-)

The strategy that I posted above is not for the faint hearted and I think you would have to be very strong willed to carry it through. I will say that I called the OW twice during the A and I was extremely courteous and gracious and then I used the information I gained to my advantage.

I do however have a different impression which is that danish may not have been able to do a picture perfect plan A. I have the impression that your H came back in May, wouldn't give up OW, so he moved into his parents' basement at Danish's urging, which may have caused more disconnection.

So I think now is the time to be on the scene, and in effect, let your H cakeeat. Because in effect, he is lost to you anyway at this point, so you can let him do it without really caring, but it will p#$% OW off big time. That is, of course, if you can handle it emotionally. I think it is doable in this case, because of the hurdles OW and WH face- their relationship is going to come up against some big stumbling blocks- language, money etc.

I think the 180 list has alot of good ideas.

Plan B however could work too. I think it has to be based on your sense of where you are at with your WS.

Talk about cake eating!

WH called me monday evening (I wasn't home) - then tuesday afternoon he called again to talk about how it went with our dog - I called him yesterday to ask him a question about the TV channels and I helped him with some computer problems he had (via the phone) - he called me today to let me know when he would come by to pick up S.

When he came here today we talked about family and friends and he asked me if he could RENT my car a week in august. Family members of his (whom we've never met) - from the US is coming to Denmark that week - I helped him arrange their visit. WH will show them Denmark - in MY car, with OW by his side!
I laughed and said: "are you joking?".
He looked surprised and said "No I'm not - it will be cheaper for me than if I have to rent a car - I'll drive you to work and give you money for a cab home, - still cheaper"
"I don't think it'll be a good idea but I promise you I'll think it over and let you know" I said.
Well - conversation, the car and the computer... meeting a few needs still I think.

>>>> Queen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi! Great to see you - I thought I was the only dane here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Sad that we have to be here, but MB is such a wonderful place. Where in Denmark do you live? I live in Aalborg.
I appreciate your post and I'm trying to make up my mind on what's best to do!
-------------------------------------------------

>>>> Espoir <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thank you!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So I think now is the time to be on the scene, and in effect, let your H cakeeat. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm glad you see it this way because I need it to be like that for a (short) period of time. When I go into Plan B (and I'm sure I will have to eventually) it's very important to me that I feel I've done the best Plan A I possibly could. As long as I'm not suffering or am lose my love for WH I think it is the best option for me.

Danish,

I understand your reasoning, but I still think more Plan A is superfluous right now. Enabling his cheating is all that a Plan A is now doing, and if you rent your car to him....well you won't will you??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> His A may need to just play out and fail as it most likely will, but at least in a Plan B you have more dignity. The Plan A is not hurting you because you are an incredibly strong and loving woman with an almost endless capacity for giving. But it isn't ending the affair either. Why should he end the affair when he can have you both? I know you don't agree....and I respect that....but have to still try to give you the best advice I can. I know you are questioning how good your Plan A was, or whether is was long enough. For a man, Plan A shouldn't last more than 3 months. I know you have been focussed at least that long. I know you have stopped LBs for that long. More than that, hurts more than it helps. I am so afraid that more than love right now.....it is fear that is keeping you from taking the next step. I understand that, but I am going to keep being a little bug in your ear. Please do a recap of your sitch to cerri, Orchid, Pepperband, TMCM and JL.....especially cerri. Get lots of opinions. And listen with your head as well as your heart. My thoughts are with you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

***** Star*fish

You ARE a bug in my ear <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> but you're acting like a Guardian Angel to me - it's a mystery to me how you manage to provide guidance and care for SOoooo many people every day. Thank you for being here!

If - IF I implement Plan B now - a question:
I have an urge to send a letter to MIL and SIL as well, explaining to them that I LOVE WH and this radical action is taken only because I want my marriage to survive and I want to protect my feelings for WH.
*?

I find it difficult to 'consult' cerri and others on this... I wouldn't know how to ask and sum it all up in one short question - I struggle with all my posts in this foreign language <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Hi Danish,

After all I have just read all I can say is I don't think your H is truely over you yet.

He needs you and he knows it.

But please do not rent him your car do not make life easy for him,he is not making it easy for you and S.Is he paying support yet?

I have no advice because I still need alot myself but like always I just want you to know I think of you daily.

Talk to you again soon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

HI Danish,

I haven't replied to any of your posts but I have been following. You sound like you are making great progress and getting lots of good advice.

I would like to offer mine. Whatever you do, do not rent him your car. He decided to walk out, he cannot have his cake and eat it too.

He may get angry that you won't lend it to him, but don't you think you've suffered enough? First the car, then he'll be asking for something else.

By him walking out, he decided what he wanted to do while in the fog.

Let me ask you this - if you rent him your car won't that give him more money to spend on the OW?

He made his bed, now in a loving way let him lie in it. No pun intended. It is so hard to say no to someone we love and want to hold on to. I know, I did it. It would kill me when I would say no, I was always afraid that if I said no that would push him away further, but it didn't and I think he ended up respecting me even more.

My thoughts are with you. You will come out of this stronger and wiser.

xxx

Hey Danish,

Live north of Copenhagen. Yes, it is nice to see other danes around, (just sorry it is on this site).

Whatever you do, I tend to agree, no lending the car. Allowing him to use you is not the same as loving him. Show him your strength.

I´m struggling also with the Plan B application. Like you find it tought ot know when it is the right time to implement as timing is important. And like many others say here you have to think with your head, not with your heart. When you think with the heart, the Plan B will never seem right.

kaerlig hilsen (danish for warm regards)
queen