DD,
she is moving, doing, planning, running, screaming, carrying on...and this is the behavior of a rational person!? a person that you're going to try and reason with! of course not! you have to be the rational person in this relationship right now....YOU! and you can't fulfill that role by acting like you're panic driven!

and by the way, my adive is not contrary to plan A any more the the weiner-davis method is. what i'm suggesting is a method to use in plan A....a method of approaching the implimitation of what you need to do. and that's what weiner-davis really does as well...she tells you how to act so that the image you project to your WW is not negative. it's a plan that let's you maintane your dignity while allowing yourself the best chance to save the marriage.

plan A does not mean you're suppose to act stupid or naive about what your WW is doing! it's plan to us to break up the affair. well, to do a good plan A, you can't LB by constanly telling your W that she's wrong and you're right! besides, she already know that but doesn't care!

what she needs is to see her H as a strong knowledgable man who ses through her nonsense with such ease that he doesn't even have to discuss it...it would be stupid to do so! get it? show her what and who you are...don't tell her! show her!

and if she leaves,then she does. you have no control over her...NONE! she will do as she chooses...you can't cause her to leave... she can claim that what you did is the reason but that's just an excuse for her to run away...and ask yourself why she's running. not because you're a bad or cruel man certainly so why is she leaving you? does guilt have anything to do with it maybe? who knows...she to foggy to figure right now so you do what needs to be done and let the cards fall where they may...REMEMBER...you're in this for the long haul. she may come and go many times before this is ended so be prepared.
coach

Thanks Coach and Coffee,

We have a counselling session next week for us both. What do you suggest should be the focus of that session. The affair, separating or rebuilding the relationship.I know she definitely wants to separate right now and wants me to leave because it is more convenient for her. Or should she leave? There are kids involved. Any thoughts on this?

DD

I suggest that you find out if she is still going to work with the OM. If she is, then all the marriage counseling in the world will be useless as far as saving your marriage. No more contact with the OM forever is a must if there is to be any chance to save the marriage. All the counseling sessions will be good for is as a showcase for her to display all your past shortcomings and how she is not to blame for the affair because it is all your fault. So don't expect miracles to happen and you won't be sadly disappointed by their absence.

As far as separation is concerned, many States do allow the inclusion of clauses in legal separations that prohibit the OP from visiting or residing in the marital home. Contact an attorney ASAP to find out if your State allows this. If you just separate without filing for legal separation, then all bets are off and she can invite the OM to go live with her in your home, and there is nothing you can do about it.

BUT keep this in mind, that if you leave your home the court might consider this as abandonment and your chances of getting custody of your kids (if that is one of your goals) will be negatively affected so think twice before you decide to leave your home.

<small>[ August 10, 2003, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

i second the coffee man, only i'll begin at the end...i would not, under any circumstances leave my home and children! i don't care what she wants or what she says...if she is intent on seperating then let her figure out how to do it..and i would tell her so in the most diplomatic possible terms...in fact, i would make this one of the most important issues to discuss with your therapist! and if your therapist advises you to move out...GET A NEW THERAPIST!

the other issue that must be addressed is her affair. i would make it very clear to both her and therapist that no matter what complaints she may have concerning your conduct in the marraige, nothing will be on the table for discusssion...NOTHING! until she gives up her affair with the OM and agrees to immediatly write and send a no-contact letter! and by the way, this should be a letter that you write to gether...she doesn't get to write a fairwell love letter...she only gets to write one of the "DON't NOT PASS GO" variety if you get my drift.

you neeed to focus your therapist on these issues so he understands your priorities and explains them to your W.

coach

WW has started apoligigizing and saying that she was undecided about separating and that maybe things could be better but also said maybe too much had gone on and perhaps it was too late. In an email she said my actions indicated that I was a bad person and then in the next sentence she said I was a good person. This whole conversation took place by several emails and started out very positive but by the end turned negative. A real rollercoaster ride over the course of a few hours. Sheesh. I am starting to wonder if conversing this serious type of conversation by email is a good thing or a bad thing. It was our first attempt at really communicating in a week.
She is still very confused and as she says "a mess".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is still very confused and as she says "a mess".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No kidding.

Be consistent in your efforts to Plan A/Plan B 180 degree list. The worst thing you can do is to let your fears get ahold of you and sabotage all your well thought out and intelligent efforts. You conquer your fears by accepting the reality that you cannot control her and that she will do what she wants to do. Stay strong.

The counselling session turned out to be an airing of trust issues and expression of anger for me telling OMW. Separation was discussed but nothing came of it because I said I was not going anywhere. The next day W says that perhaps we can be nice to each other and become friends and regain trust on both sides and enjoy time spent together and not to rush things. W is very much afraid of pressure from me. So far it is not to bad however communication does not always come easy. Here is the what you all will want to comment on. She is still working with OM and that is unlikely to change. I am going to give her the chance to prove herself and welcome your comments on communication issues, becoming friends and dealing with the fact that she still works with OM.

DD

One of the things you have to keep in mind is to avoid all love busters, especially the angry outbursts, selfish demands and disrespectful judgements. But at the same time you have to convey to her that every day that she has contact with the OM is one more day that your love for her dies and that eventually all of your love for her will be gone. When that day arrives, you will no longer will have any desire to want to continue being married to her. This is not a threat but a statement of the inevitable consequences if things continue to be the same with regards to her and the OM. It is unrealistic to expect that continued contact with the om will not lead to the end of the marriage but it is her decision if she wants to risk it.

<small>[ August 19, 2003, 12:41 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Our friendship does not seem to be progressing all that well. She is indifferent. We are basically living as room mates and she appears to really enjoy sleeping in separate rooms. She does not have much time for me at all, basically focusing on the children and work. I try to communicate without being forceful, just in a friendly way. I give her the odd hug but I can tell that she does not like it. It is not going that well. Would it be better to do the 180 thing, Weiner/Davis that is? Anybody have any ideas?

DD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Would it be better to do the 180 thing, Weiner/Davis that is? Anybody have any ideas?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes.

Well, I did some LBing today. I asked about reestablishing our friendship and enjoying times together and assumed it would lead to her allowing me to start meeting EN but no I was wrong. The friendship was just so that when we separate it would be amicable. This misunderstanding angered and frustrated me so we got into it and I said things about her being in a thick fog and exhibiting destructive behaviour and other stuff and I ended up asking her when she wanted me to leave (separate). This was all by email at work and I never got a response. At home she barely even seemed fazed by it. I ended up appologizing, saying I didn't intend on hurting her feelings and she said she was angry but got over it quickly and that she realized it was just a knee jerk reaction. So anyways it looks like I will be leaving soon. She thinks that we need the time apart, that being together right now is too stressfull and she is just not willing to work on the marriage right now especially since we were having problems way before the A. How can I argue with that? I am thinking that it is not the time for Plan B that I will just try and be nice and give her some time to think and she can experience family life without me. In the meantime I will continue reading and improving my relationship weaknesses in the event things work out or who knows for a future relationship. I think it will be quick, she will have to make up her mind, I won't be waiting around for her long, life is just too short. But in saying that I do love her and hope for the best.

DD

please understand something right now. no matter how frustrated and angry she makes you, you cannot leave the house! if anybody leaves...then she has to be the one.

her idea of seperating is nothing more then her foggy little mind seeking a way to continue the affair with out you interfering. you stay! no matter what!

next, you simply have to stop all relationship talk, all the arguing and all demonstrations of affection. she percieves all of these acts to be negative at this time.

look, your W has conviced herself that you're the problem in her life...the cause of her pain and suffering. and you're helping to reinforce her feelings by continuing to address issues she doesn't want to face up to at this time. so stop doing it. you're not going to get anywhere with her anyway.

my friend please belive that i say this with great affections, but you simply are not getting it. you want to deal with her like she's a rational person and that's not who she is. you want her to behave morally and she couldn't care less. she is simply going to do what ever pleases her and you have NO CONTROL! i repeat...YOU HAVE NO CONTROL!

the only thing you control is you and you're not doing that very well right now. do yourself a favor and go over the post the the coffee man sent...the one that lists the do's & don'ts from weiner-davis; explaining how to do a 180. i have to believe that this is your best shot right now.

coach

Well it seems whenever I call her bluff and agree to separate, she backs off. We have had some good days actually depositing some love units. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to last. When we are back to dealing with the steel wheels of life, it is difficult to sustain progress in rebuilding. But when we spend time doing something together without the kids it is quite different and enjoyable for both of us. However we still sleep in different rooms, I receive virtually no affection or intimacy and almost all hugs, kisses or hand holding is initiated by me. She does want to continue counselling because she feels most comfortable talking about everything in that environment. We have both identified our Emotional Needs but are having difficulty meeting them right now. It seems right now that all we can do is be nice to each other. She still is having trouble dealing with her anger and resentment of me telling OMW about the A. Well we will see where the next counselling session takes us.

Had the counselling session and it went well. Basically agreed to become friends first, no sex and still sleeping in different rooms. We will see if becoming friends is possible and try to rebuild the relationship. Things did look good but now that several days have passed, it looks as if the A has started again. I believe the counselling is just a tactic in order for WW to continue cake eating. Help Coffeeman and Coach.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">decisions,decisions:

"Things did look good but now that several days have passed, it looks as if the A has started again. I believe the counselling is just a tactic in order for WW to continue cake eating. Help Coffeeman and Coach."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Calmly and respectfully convey to her that your trust in her has now been totally shattered by her continued contact with the OM and that you now MUST do a realistic re-evaluation of your options for the future (which is true). At this point shut up and leave her alone to ponder your words.

It seems we may be back on track again, however WW still working with OM. We agreed to not talk about the affair anymore and to move forward. We are back sleeping together and kiss hello, goodbye and goodnight and hug as well. We are communicating fairly well and doing things together and things seem to be progressing well. W does not want to jump into MB or other ways to rebuild marriage at this point but we have scheduled a Retrauvaille weekend in the future for struggling marriages. Right now WW just wants to be together, have some fun and see what happens. I of course still think about the fact that they work together.

D&D,
i'm glad that you're happy but i wouldn't be your friend if i didn't tell you truthfully how i feel.

as things are right now, i would call your situation a "fools paradise!" (not a personal description...a cliche)

i just don't see how you can get things going and get into recovery with her still in contact with the OM! others aroud her can discuss this issue more clinically or with more eloquence for sure...all i can say is that from my point of view it just ain't going to work long term!

she is not really making any comittment to the marriage or you. she is simply throwing you a bone and appeasing your anger..she is managing you! just like she would any other employee.

look, judging by your posts, this never seemed to be an affair of the "changing husbands" variety. or am i wrong? did she ever consider leaving you for the OM? is he married? if so does his W know?

for her things works out perfectly...just as they did before! she has a H at work to meet her professional and emotional needs and a H at home to meet her personal EMs. and on those occasions when she can manage it...great sexual variety! WOW! what a life! (and don't bet that it's till not going on! at least be honest with yourself and realize that it's a real possibility)

sorry but as things stand, i don't see how you or the marriage will ever be her number 1 priority in her life. i truly feel that you need to do something radicle to shake this thing up or...if you're satisfied with the status quo then just live with it.

coach

DD-

I agree with what coffee man and coach are telling you. Out of all the success stories I've seen on these forums in the past couple of years, very few (I can't recall specifics on any)involve a situation where contact between the WS and OP continues....it's just not realistic.

IMO it's impossible to rebuild trust and intimacy with your spouse if the OP continues to weigh in all the issues. In my case, my XW and I tried counseling (with a great therapist btw) while she continued to work with OM and in the end it just didn't work...I'm now divorced. There were lots of times where we seemed to make significant progress but then things would just digress again.

Your wife will have to face up to the consequences of her actions sooner or later. She's going to need to decide if her job is more important than her M and family. Continue to educate yourself on Plan A/B and set up a appointment with the Harvey's if you can swing it...they definitely know what they're doing. Good luck with this....

<small>[ October 01, 2003, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: litchfield ]</small>

Well I think you guys are not far off the mark. Her job is very important to her and I have asked on several occasions for her to move on to another. But the problem is it wouldn't be easy for her to find as good a paying job and since she hasn't felt good about the marriage for a long time she is reluctant to leave it for fear we split anyway. It is a dilemma. I know and she knows to that it would be best for us but right now for her it isn't an option.

look, judging by your posts, this never seemed to be an affair of the "changing husbands" variety. or am i wrong? did she ever consider leaving you for the OM? is he married? if so does his W know?

Changing husbands I don't think was an option. OM is married and doesn't appear to want to leave. Just eat cake. His wife does know. I told her which my W has not forgiven me for. It has ruined the whole social thing at work ya know.

sorry but as things stand, i don't see how you or the marriage will ever be her number 1 priority in her life.

I think you are right. Her work is like a big party, friends, laughs beer on Friday afternoon.
None of the stresses of home life.

Don't really know what to do right now.

As it stands right now, with her decision not to find another job away from the OM because she hasn't committed to rebuilding the marriage, the chances of your marriage surviving are very slim at best. It may be wise for you to consult (not file) with an attorney to find out what your outlook and options are. The worse time for a man to divorce is when his W is out of a job.