I had to face very recently something which shocked me to the core. I'm not the first one to find this out, and I won't be the last. The person I am closest too has been sleeping with somebody else.

The circumstances, however, are odd, to say the least. We're not married. While I realise this is a marriage building forum, I found the principles I read on the main page to be ones which could certainly hold true in ALL relationships, not just marriages. If anyone is offended by this being posted here, then I apologise. But I hope I might find some useful advice here.

Like many before me, I have scoffed at the idea of an "internet relationship". The idea of people actually meeting and connecting online was totally ludicrous to me. Until I, totally unexpectedly, met someone out of the blue who gave me just the things I have been looking for.

At first we were great friends. Very close, very open, and we actually LISTENED to each other. It was the first time ever that I felt someone was listening to me, REALLY listening. And I loved it. Things went on over an extended period. We got very close. Neither of us realised what was happening, but it happened all the same. We trancended friendship, and went into something more. We've been talking for months and months now. And we've talked about things neither of us has EVER been able to tell anyone else.

There has never seemed to be a problem. Yes, the distance was sometimes frustrating, but that wasn't something which would be an issue forever. I was (am?) willing to move to her if it proves to be the right thing to do. We were/are due to meet on August 22nd. Only a short amount of time away, now. Which is why this came as a horrible shock.

She used to be engaged, to a guy who just didn't work out with her. They were together 10 years, but things were just not right, and she told him it was over, finished it.

It is this man she slept with the other day. Or two other days, Thursday and Saturday. She told me last night. I'm numb. I feel...nothing, which worries me. I should feel something, but I don't.

She says she wants to make it up to me, wants to sort things out. She says it was a mistake and she hates herself for it. I don't know what to do. I received a long email from her this morning, which I will paste here to in case it helps anyone with some insights. I haven't spoken to her since last night. I don't know what to do. I don't know what to say. I don't even know what I want.

I know I DON'T want to screw things up. So that is why I'm posting here. There is enough hurt and resentment floating around waiting to strike already, and I do not wish to add to it. So...here is what I recieved this morning.

---------------------

Hi,

So, here it is. How I feel, what is going on. First of all, I want to apologize for being emotionally manipulative to you, because obviously I have been. Take our past few 'arguments' for example. That was completely wrong of me, and I apologize sincerely. It was totally unfair, and a result of feeling guilty and afraid of the place I am in right now. It was a case of misplaced anger and confusion. I intend to stop doing that whole heartedly. I hope you can forgive me that.

Now, I want to tell you about the place I am in right now. It's been a long few weeks, believe it or not. I am completely terrified of being with you. Of letting you love me. I'm sure this is obvious. I'm sure this rings familiar as well. However, I don't think you quite understand where I am coming from. Because you can't. How could you? You haven't been in a relationship like I've had with (name of her ex fiance). You can't understand the feelings of confusion and remorse and failure. I should have been more honest with you. I should have told you over and over again how I felt, rather than pretending to be alright. I have never, ever been so confused in all of my life. Why? Because I'm trying to heal. I really am. I thought I could detatch myself from my old relationship, from (name of her ex fiance), from what happened, from that failure. From the pain I was in and keep inflicting on myself. I couldn't. I can now, but I guess it's a little late. Damn, therapy is a *****. Half the time my head hurts from all of this discovery. Yes, I am in a process of discovering myself. I've kept myself down for too long. The truth of the matter is, I am a shallow person with very few desires. I didn't know how to sort them out, but I am learning. And you, the one thing I truly desire I manage to destroy. Typical ****ing me.

Now, there is no excuse for what happened with (name of her ex fiance). I'm not going to try to justifiy it. I just want you to understand that I am human too. And because I respect you, I had to tell you, no matter how much it hurt either of us. Especially you, which is the last thing I ever wanted to do. I hope you can understand that. If I didn't tell you, it would have been even worse down the road. I promised to be honest. I might not have done it the right way, but I did it the only way I know how.

I have been going through some huge, serious life changes right now. It's all very confusing and more painful than I let on. Yes, I might pretend I'm fine, but I'm not. I'm not feeling sorry for myself. I'm not asking for you to feel sorry for me. I'm just telling you the way it is. I can't change it. I can't change what happened with (name of her ex fiance) either. I would, if I could. Believe me. It was the worst mistake I've ever made. I'm sorry. I hope you can forgive me one day. I never meant to hurt you, I swear it to you.

Sometimes I can't believe that what you and I have (had) was real. That is no one's fault. I just couldn't let it get through to me that this could be (could have been?)something good. Now that things got to the point we are at now, I can see it. I can see what we had, and what I threw away, out of spite. Spite to myself. I wouldn't let myself be happy. I will never do that again. I couldn't believe that it was actually happening to me, that someone was accepting me for who I was, laid bare. That someone wanted me no matter what dark secrets I revealed. I exposed myself to you and you treated me gently. That is something completely new to me, something I've never experienced. It scared me so bad, I can't even say. It made me realize that I shouldn't hate myself. Maybe I really am worth something. I think I am, even through all the mistakes I've made. I just wish I could see then what I see now and accept it. Hindsight is 20/20, as they say. ****.

I do know and believe this. I care about you enough to tell you these things instead of running away, which is what I would have done with anyone else. Anyone. I really do want to make this work, more than anything. I realize that what I've done might have permanantly damaged this possibility. I can't take it back, or I would. All I can do is try to work through it with you. I want to stop this cycle of pain I have begun with you. And hope that you can forgive me...that we can work through this together.

What I see us doing is this: One of us takes the other to a painful place (usually me), then derives pleasure from the 'making up' point. This has to end. I will not do it anymore, if you give me the chance to prove it. I know I have a lot to prove.

The things you said to me tonight hurt me worse than anything I've ever felt. You trusted me, and I failed you. That was my worst fear. You told me that is what I did to you. You came alive again, and I ruined it. I hope you can forgive me, one day. I never meant to hurt you. Ever. Now you told me that you loved me, and I ****ked it up. I didn't want it to be like that. I wanted to tell each other, when we were both happy, together. I wanted to tell you as I held you..as I touched you. But there it is. The truth. I do love you. I love you so much it scares the ****ing hell out of me. I won't stop loving you either, no matter what happens between us. I can't ignore the fact that we found each other for a reason, and I won't let it go. I am in love with you. That's where I stand, that's how I feel.

I know you won't believe it because of what happened. My ****up. And I won't blame you for not forgiving me. I know what I did was wrong. It was an accident. I'm human, I have weaknesses. I do stupid things. I do destructive things to harm myself. If anything, at least I can learn something from this. What not to do. Even though I was confused and vulnerable, I shouldn't have let it happen. It's so bizarre sometimes. I watch myself make these mistakes and am helpless to stop them. I can't allow that anymore. It's killing me. Killing my emotions. I dont' want to do that.

What you said earlier was right. I'm not the type to beg. I'm not the type to 'do anything'. But I am so completely heartbroken about hurting you and myself that I WOULD do anything to make it better. I am so disappointed in myself I am physically sick. I've thrown up so much, there's nothing left.

I don't even hate myself. I am just frustrated, heartbroken and completely devastated. My worst fears came true. I hurt you. The person I've cared about most in my life. I built you up and knocked you down with a stupid mistake. A moment of being weak and human. I thought I was better than that, but I wasn't. I will be. I will never make a mistake like this again. In my mind I did not betray you, because I couldn't believe it was real. Now that everything is crashing down on me, I realize how real it actually is. How my actions affect people, hurt people...hurt you. I am so sorry. i have never regretted anything more in my life.

****ing (Name of her Psych) told me I shouldn't tell you. That you had no right to 'claim' me. That I was free to do whatever...that what happened was a slipup, and it was probably best not to let you know. To protect your feelings. To protect my feelings. He said what I did was normal. I don't believe that. I can't do that. That isn't me. I made a mistake and I'm taking responsibility for it. I did something wrong. I hurt you because of it. It was my fault. I was confused and weak, and I should have stopped. But the fact is, I didn't. Funny how (friend A) saw my downward slip, but I got pissed off about it. Yeah, ****ing hilarous. Too bad he didn't make what he was trying to say more clear. Too bad he didn't just slap me in the face to get me to look at reality. It's odd when your friends know you better than you know yourself. Though (friend A) has seen me **** up repeatedly. But he wont' anymore. Because I'm finished with inflicting pain on myself. And on others. What's the point? Look at what happens. I did this to us.

I hope more than anything that you can give me another chance. I hope I can earn your trust again. I hope you can let me love you, because I am ready to let you love me. Even if it is only as friends, I'll take that, though I hope for more. I don't want you out of my life. I can't imagine life without you. I can't even express in words how I feel right now. And the most painful part, is that I know you probably feel even worse, and that is my fault.

You are the most wonderful person I have ever known. You amaze me in so many ways...the way you put up with my bull****, the way you talk to me, the way you care for me. You make me so happy, sometimes it makes me cry from being so completely overwhelmed. I never thought I could meet anyone like you. Please don't give up. Even if you can't forgive me, please don't give up on yourself. Don't give up on me. No matter what happened, I still hold true to what I said. I will always be here for you as long as you want me. I won't leave you until you tell me to go, and mean it. Even then I'll fight you. We met for a reason, I can't let that go. That's not a promise, it's the truth. I don't feel anything but complete love and respect for you. And nothing I did to sabatoge this will change how I feel. Nor will it change the fact that I am going to keep fighting. For you. For myself. I am *not* giving up. I refuse. I'm not going to let this go.

We can dwell on the past, or we can look toward the future. I want to look towards the future. Our future, together. I hope. All that is left is hope, and I'm not letting it go. I would do anything at all to be able to touch you right now, to tell you that I really am sorry for making this mistake. To tell you how I feel about you.

I know you aren't sleeping. I know you are miserable right now, and I am sorry for that. I know my apologies seem shallow, but I mean them. I really do. And I mean that I am going to stop doing this, that I'm going to break this ****ing pattern of self destruction. I made a mistake. A really ****ing big one. I admit it. But it was that. A mistake. I have to forgive myself, and I do. I made a mistake, I'm human. It happens. I know better now. I am going to let it go and hope for the best.

I feel so empty and lost without you. I hope this made sense. I hope I can do something to fix this, because I sure as hell am going to try. I should have stopped and thought about how you would feel. I was so blinded by emotion and sorrow and fear that I didn't. I wish I could go back and grab myself by the shoulders and slap some sense into myself. "Look, *****, this guy loves you. Why the **** are you doing this????" I didn't know that you loved me. I thought I felt it. I knew I loved you. It was so confusing. Now it's even worse. Confusing is better than horrible. And I made you feel horrible too, which is the worst part. I hope, selfishly, that some of the things you said were a result of the wine. I also hope, not selflishly, that is the case. Please don't blame yourself for this. Please don't shut down again. I know who you are inside....don't let that go.

I am going to be the woman you deserve. Because I haven't been, but I am going to change that.
Please think about the things I've said...and please don't feel pressured to respond to me until you feel ready. I know this email probably sucked, but it is the way it is, how I feel.

I'll be waiting and hoping, for however long it takes. If we can get through this huge mistake of mine, we can get through anything.
But I'll understand if you cannot. But I can hope.

You mean the world to me. That's the truth. I'll be thinking about you all night, all day...always.

I do love you. More than this ****ing stupid email can convey.

(signed by her)
----------------------------

So...there we are. I do't know how to take this. I don't know whether to take it on face value, or not.

I know a lot of people think meeting on the internet or long distance relationships are doomed to failure. I knew the risks, and I gladly face those. I'm looking for advice on how to proceed, however - so please, I would ask that anyone reading this doesn't pass to heavy a judgement on whether I should or should not have gone ahead in the first place. And in truth, it wasn't planned. It happened. I didn't even believe it was possible, ironically.

I could use some help. Even basic analysis of the email she wrote me would be appreciated. Please, I'm too numb to think right now.

Thank you for reading this far, if you have done so.

reddo,

Analysis of her email? She is sorry for what she did. Believe that especially since she did tell you. However, that doesn't mean she wouldn't do it again only time will tell.

I am going to say something that is going to sound harsh, but there is a reason for it. Your relationship, as all internet relationships, is a fantasy. Yes, you have communicated verbally, and yes you have shared intimate details (just as people do here) but you are doing this with a ghost. So while there is emotion, and even feed back, there is no reality.

It is like people living together, and ACTING as if they are married. They ARE NOT married. Otherwise they would not be acting as if... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Her counselor is wrong in the idea of not telling, but he/she is right in that you two don't owe each other anything including fidelity. No promises have been made, no commitments have been actuated. So in that sense what she did is "fine". It was wrong on many levels but with regards to other relationship planes it was fine.

So what to do? I think you should go meet her and begin to make this relationship real IF you are still interested. I think you should recognize that anyone who has been in a committed relationship for 10 years but no marriage commitment is going to be messed up big time, from losing the relationship and because of the strangeness of the relationship. In short you are not going to be meeting a well adjusted person.

But, you should meet face to face IF you want this to develop from a "ghost" situation to reality.

The choice is really yours.

God Bless,

JL

It's hard not to pass too hard a judgement...coming from a place of being cheated on...the letter and your circumstances brings up strong emotions in me.

It is an interesting passing of events. you have been cheated on outside of marriage. Before things have been legally binding. What are the chances this will happen again? I think pretty strong. It sounds like this Ex is a weakness. And although she says she is not trying to justify her actions...she tries to do just that.

How serious are you both? How often do you see each other? Marriage on the horizon? I would postpone any "forever" plans for at least awhile. She has promised a change in behavior, you should see if she will truly change for a length of time (6 months-year?), then decide if long term plans are in the future.

How many MBers on here, if being shown that our Spouses would possibly cheat on us during our marriage by having an affair before marriage, would have still married our S's? I wouldn't.

I didn't read all of her email because I didn't feel it to be pertinent to what's at hand.

I don't discredit internet meetings because I have been there myself. But I also don't put as much faith into them. Have you met this person yet, or was the Aug. 22nd date the initial meeting? If you haven't, you can't really tell what your compatibility is in person or physically. It would be these types of factors that wouldn't hold someone to being in a committed, accountable relationship.

Clearly she has a history with her ex and may even be trying to reconcile to a certain point. Although she does sound genuinely remorseful for her actions. Did you two agree upon a committed, monogamous relationship? Are you two truly an item such as boyfriend/girlfriend?

The person I recently met online, I met in person. This gave me something to base any future friendships/relationships on and gave me a sense of how we'd interact in person. These types of things can't be relayed in purely online relationships which is where I find fault with them.

You never know. I hear of more and more online meeting success stories as people look for alternative dating methods.

Best of luck!

<small>[ August 06, 2003, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Eduard ]</small>

TR-

I'm going to be very blunt. You are an OM. She and her boyfriend are having issues because YOU are her fantasy man.

Do not go there. You deserve better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It was an accident </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sleeping with someone is an accident?????

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">a stupid mistake </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">A moment of being weak and human. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> slipup </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My advise to you if R U N NNNNNNNNNN! She sounds too human to get involved with/continue involvement. How many times did she blame her choices and actions on being human? How many times did she admit this is a pattern with her?


The email is nothing more that her trying to find excuses and blame everything in the world for HER behavior.

Thank you all for the responses you have posted. I truly do appreciate them.

I'm going to try to clarify certain things by answering the questions you've all asked.

However, I would like to make a couple of things known about myself. First, I am not a religious person. I never have been. I also have always possessed strong misgivings about the idea of marriage. Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with committment. But I think marriage is a religious institution, first and foremost, and that is not something I am a part of. So I am uncomfortable with the idea.

I think you can make committments outside of marriage. So that might help to clarify my position on these things. I have also made this belief of mine known to the lady in question, and she actually agreed with me, having similar ideas herself.

So, to address what was posed to me.

How serious are you both? How often do you see each other? Marriage on the horizon?

Well, I obviously can't speak for her. I count myself as very committed. I come home from work, and I talk to her (either via voice or text) pretty much until I go to bed, every evening. I have done since we met, and that has been nigh on a year.

We haven't met yet. We both agreed that rushing into that would be foolish, and so we didn't run into things blind, so to speak. We have had serious discussions on whether a relationship is actually feasible, whether we both think there is a possible future. Both of us said yes. Both considered it a possibility worth pursuing.

Marriage hasn't been discussed, because it is far too premature. And, as highlighted above, I have misgivings about that anyway.

Have you met this person yet, or was the Aug. 22nd date the initial meeting? If you haven't, you can't really tell what your compatibility is in person or physically. It would be these types of factors that wouldn't hold someone to being in a committed, accountable relationship.

Initial meeting. And yes, you are right in that respect. We are both aware that is a possibility. However, I am acutely aware that I've never really been motivated by physical attractions, more by emotional ones - personality. So I didn't anticipate that being a problem for me, but yes, I had certainly thought it over.

I know she has considered them too, and I know she was deathly afraid of my meeting her and being disappointed in the way she looks.

Did you two agree upon a committed, monogamous relationship? Are you two truly an item such as boyfriend/girlfriend?

Yes to both. She had actually introduced me to a couple of her friends in a multiway MSN conversation, so it isn't as if she has even tried to keep me a secret. Her friends are all aware I exist. They have even told her that they think I am the best thing which could have happened to her. We both committed to each other in no different a fashion than two people dating in "real life". In a way, more so, because we had to invest a lot more trust due to the distance involved.

I'm going to be very blunt. You are an OM. She and her boyfriend are having issues because YOU are her fantasy man.

Possible, yes. However, her relationship with the ex-BF was over before we even met. She has told me that the two instances in question, he caught her when she was upset and very vulnerable. She also offered, in the short conversation we had, to never, ever see him again. I didn't ask for that. She said she'd do that if necessary. I'm very torn as to whether she actually means that or not. It may have been a knee jerk reaction. I honestly don't know.

I hope that answered some things you all raised. Thank you for the support, I really appreciate it.

TR-

Here's how I see it, approaching it from a WS view (Her's).

You've been talking with this woman on-line and she tells you things like X is out of the picture. She introduces you to CHAT ROOM friends. Do any of these people know her in REAL life?

She was engaged to this man yet she tells you that she doesn't believe in marriage, just commitment. Yet she is committed to YOU and she sleeps with him.

What's wrong with this picture?

She's not over her X and she's pulling you into her issues. She's using you to distract herself from reality.

IF she wants to NC and you trust it, have her copy YOU on the NC letter.

Personaly, I think you're setting yourself up for a Big Fall.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kily:
<strong>TR-

She introduces you to CHAT ROOM friends. Do any of these people know her in REAL life?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, they are her RL friends. I don't hang out in chatrooms, never have. It was only pure accident we even met - playing a game, funnily enough.

she's also sent me pics of the people I've talked to over MSN (her friends). I do have reasonable cause to think they are real life friends, in fairness.

Of course, that doesn't detract from the validity of you other points...although I confess I'm not sure what the acronyms mean. Could you explain those? I only found this site today, so I'm still learning the ropes, so to speak. I'm probably being slow, but I'm not in my best frame of mind, in all honesty.

NC - no contact
There is a link to the acronyms. I'll try and locate it for you.

My points are only being made to make you think. I'm trying to play devil's advocate and give you worse case scenario's.

Your gut will feel it when I hit on something true. When that happens, you need to explore that issue.

I realise you are playing the advocate, and I appreciate it. Having completed a law degree, I am a firm believer in the adverserial system of truth finding (in theory, anyway).

It is hard to find a truth if you don't consider the counter argument; again, thank you for taking the time to help me out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I know a lot of people think meeting on the internet or long distance relationships are doomed to failure. I knew the risks, and I gladly face those. I'm looking for advice on how to proceed</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I haven't posted in a long while, but internet relationships are near and dear to my heart. Can they be successful? Yep - despite the problems we have had, I consider my relationship successful.

However, I learned early on not to become emotionally involved online. I fell in love with an incredible man; we spent hours every day online and on the phone together. We planned our first meeting, he sent me reams of poetry and taught me to speak Spanish. He disappeared from online one day. Not answering the phone, no email. He came back after three days to let me know he had been at the hospital for a few days while his wife delivered their second child. Moral of my own story and my own personal creed since then: people online do not really exist, they are a fantasy. Until you have met them and spent time with them in person, they simply are not real.

Now, I realize that's probably too late for you. And believe me, I know the feelings are horribly real. It sounds like you recognize that this woman has some serious, serious personal issues which will impact your ability to have serious relationship. And I'm not talking about having sex with her ex (okay, once is maybe an accident, but twice is a pattern). I do believe you can go on and build a successful relationship. I truly believe the Marriage Builders emotional needs approach would benefit any relationship, especially those just starting out. And make no mistake, despite your year online together, you are just starting out. Get the book His Needs, Her Needs. Commit to making it work; get her commitment to making it work. You've invested a great deal of emotion into her so far, and I would not want to walk away without being very sure you could not recover from her infidelity.

(And I also consider fidelity to be real online where the parties have agreed to it, as well as marriage not being the only choice for a relationship).

If I can offer any further assistance, please feel free to write to me at kuurspet@aol.com. I don't get online much anymore - too busy with my startingly happy marriage!

I'm just throwing this out there...

How do people get involved in stuff like this (internet relationships, chat rooms) when you know there are so many people out there engaging in this activity that are not for real?

Yes, I am discussing things w/people I don't know on here but I know why I am here. If some of the people on here are not for real, hey, some of them give really good advice but I would never want to start a relationship with anybody over the computer!

Even though people send pictures back and forth, it doesn't mean it's really them.

You can't even call this a relationship. You're just talking to somebody on the computer. I talk more on the computer than I do in real life because I am a shy person and I know I'll never see these people face-to-face (at least as far as I know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ).

Getting to know a person face-to-face and dating them face-to-face is how you start a relationship.