Can anybody help me on guaging my wife's repsonse to my asking her to take a ploygraph? For over two years now, I have been seeking to discover the truth about her A. She has stonewalled me to no end! Yet I have every reason to doubt and suspect the A. OM coming to my house while I am not at home. Om giving her flowers. Going to lunch with OM. Daily conversations with OM. Going out of town with OM, and much more. Yet she has denied everything, played dumb, or can't remember! So, I finally asked her to take a polygraph to eliminate my doubts, because I want to believe her, yet I am confronted with the evidence. I asked her to do it for me, to help me close this up. Her response was that she would do it, but she will feel differently about me afterwards. That I should trust her and take her at her word. (Just this year she confessed to me that she had had a serious EA with her boss around the same time frame as the possible A). She was angry, upset, hostile. But said she would do it, but we would talk afterwards! She has attacked my sanity, as if I am crazy for thinking that she could have done this! But she's the one who has given me all the reasons to doubt her in the first place! I feel bad to have asked for the polygraph test, but I told her that I just want to close the issue once and for all! And she's been uncooperative in doing so. I've been trying to get her to voluntarily admit to what she has done, even if it wasn't an A. But she does not acknowledge hardly anything! The confession of the EA was on the heels of a confrontation of this possible A. Help!!! I feel terrible for asking, but at the same time feel that I should not back off, which I have done in the past! I jsu want my marriage to clean of the stinch of infidelity, so that we can be really close! Help!!! Right now, she is as cold as ice, hard, fussy, defensive as ever, but I feel I must go forward with the test. Am I wrong?

Typical response for a WS who hasn't told the whole truth. My FWH took one but he started out with the same types of comments your W is making. You can check out my post from last Dec/Jan timeframe on In Recovery Board and my FWH posted under "tellthetruth".

Forevertogether,

Thanks for your response. It's good to know that my w response is typical. Obviously, your H did not pass the test. I read your postings that you referred to. It's good to see that you both have recovered, which gives me hope. I am hoping that my w will confess to what she has done prior to the actual test. A voluntary confession means so much more in terms of willingness to be honest, which is critical to rebuilding trust. She's (my w) is still defiant and defensive. Hopefully I can hold out!

Vizzie,

What the heck is your goal here???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">! I jsu want my marriage to clean of the stinch of infidelity, so that we can be really close! Help!!! Right now, she is as cold as ice, hard, fussy, defensive as ever, but I feel I must go forward with the test. Am I wrong? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you want to be really close and in romantic love with your wife, she's going to need to feel the same way about you.

Does a lie detector test help both parties become closer? Is is something enthusiastically agreed on by both parties?

If both of those questions are answered by "yes", then by all means, get the test done. If not---you're hurting your marriage.

In our case, he did confess to almost everything prior to the polygraph. It was little details, not the big stuff. He was devastated that he flunked, he actually thought that since he'd confessed to all the big stuff that he'd pass the test. However, he had such a guilty concious from keeping those remaining details that he failed the test.

The failing of the test shook him up so badly and my reaction to him failing it (I was calm and ready to follow through with leaving him sense he couldn't tell the truth) that all the rest just poored out of him...even things unrelated to the A (nothing big, just things he hadn't told truth about). He felt so cleansed that he offered to go right back and take another test.

Instead we followed the advice of the polygraph examiner, we went to the OW and I asked her same questions that were on the test, she confirmed that he'd finally told the truth (no way she could have tricked us, we went directly to her house so they didn't have time to confer and I asked them in an open ended manner).

For me the truth was extremely important, not just knowing everything but knowing that he was capable of telling the whole truth, respected and trusted me enough with the truth...in all areas not just A related. If he didn't pass the test or finally come completely clean we wouldn't have made it.

My thoughts regarding polygraphs are is they have nothing to hide they'll take it...I offered to take one as well...I had nothing to hide.

What kind of M can you have with a bunch of hurtfull lies between you?

Vizzie,
Doesn't it seem crazy to be in the position of asking one's spouse to take a polygraph? You definitely ARE NOT hurting your marriage. Your W's response is typical of someone who doesn't want to take the test. She's scared. I found myself in this same position. My husband said he would take one, but I think he was just trying to call my bluff. I set it up, and it was only then that he confessed everything before we ever actually got around to the test. THEN he volunteered to take a polygraph at any time. I think, although the truth was very painful to me, it was freeing for him. We are now working hard at recovery. Things seemed to start getting better once he starting being honest and once I started believing him. You can't begin recovery until you have that.
Good luck!

Thanks for your responses.

K, my goal is rid my marriage of a wall of dishonesty that keeps my w from being as close to me as she desires to be. A wall that has caused her to be cool and distant for years. She's told me that she knows she "holds back on me", but does not know why. It's not possible to be close to someone you're deceiving and/or lying to.

Forevertogether and Maggiemay,

Thanks for your valuable insight as well. Yes, it feels crazy to have to ask your spouse to take a polygraph! But I must know the truth about this A. As you said, if not, what do I have? I told her that I want to believe her and take her at her word. But her actions and contradictions have caused me to doubt her word. I told her that I want her to pass the test! I want my w and my marriage, not divorce! We've been married for 26 years. What I don't want is to live with suspicion and doubt about the loyalty of my life-long companion. I have spent to many sleepless nights wondering about what this man was doing in my house, with my w, while I was at work. (My neighbor informed about the OM coming to my house. When confronting my w, she said it was for "lunch"?!!!)I have talked with an examiner to set up the test. Their charge is $500.00 for three (3) questions. Is this in the ball park for this kind of thing?

I'm not saying you shouldn't go ahead with the polygraph test BUT wouldn't it be better for you to also convey to your W that if you suspect she is still having contact with the OM, that you MAY avail yourself of the services of a PI? This won't stop her from doing what she wants to do BUT it will serve notice to her that she's not going to be able to hide the truth and consequences of any future A.

That's about what we paid and it was money very well spent. We got to ask 4 questions but they had to be worded very specifically, if not results can't be trusted.

The cost sounds about right, although mine was going to be a little cheaper.....I think around $300.00. Costs do vary from state to state, though. I think it's definitely worth it and I would have paid twice that much to put to rest my doubts. I also told my H that I wanted him to pass and that if he did, I would be the first one to apologize for doubting him. I desperately WANTED to be wrong and I told him so. Since all of this happened, I give alot more credence to "gut feelings". Trust them!! Just my two cents worth, but as long as you have doubts, it's very hard to begin recovery and all that goes with it (i.e., trust, honesty, openness). You have to start with a clean slate.

My H was absolutely convinced that if I knew, I would ask him to leave & our marriage would be over. It was the NOT knowing, the dishonesty that would have ended our marriage. I don't think we would be in recovery now, had he not respected me enough to be honest w/me.

Vizzie:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">K, my goal is rid my marriage of a wall of dishonesty that keeps my w from being as close to me as she desires to be. A wall that has caused her to be cool and distant for years. She's told me that she knows she "holds back on me", but does not know why. It's not possible to be close to someone you're deceiving and/or lying to. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, good goal. How does hooking her up to a polygraph help this? Would you like to get one that is permanently wired to a big "liar" sign on her forehead that goes off when she's deceiving you?

Seriously---I wrote a nice big post to you (and the other's here) that got eaten yesterday. To receive honesty, you must encourage it. To encourage honesty, you must receive it (even if it's fairly horrible) without using lovebusters.

I would strongly urge you to go to the Concepts section of this website and review Radical Honesty, Lovebusters (especially selfish demands), the Policy of Joint Agreement, and Safe Negotiation.

Also, spend some time in the Q&A section to get Dr. Harley's advice to people with real problems (just like yours). For Honesty, there are Section 1 and Section 2 on this specific lovebuster (that would be dishonesty). I would also suggest that you check out the Q&A's on The Policy of Joint Agreement.

Again, I think the advice you're getting here is just plain bad. Forcing a liar to take a lie detector test to prove that they are a liar is not going to facilitate marriage recovery. IF they truly aren't lying, then you want to encourage them back into the marriage to the point where they wouldn't mind taking a lie detector test. If your wife isn't enthusiastic about this, it either means that she's lying, or she's not---but really isn't in love with you enough to take this test (she finds it offensive). I even disagree with TMCM---that is a threat (a DJ/SD lovebuster). If you need to use a PI to figure out whether your wife is still cheating---do so. But HOW you treat her should fall under the guidelines of the MB principles (no LB's).

I hope you read these links and figure out a better way. You might want to call the MB counseling center to get a professionals advice---888-639-1639; or ask cerri for an opinion on this (she's been trained by the Harley's).

I could have written Maggie's reply, that was me.I wanted desparately for him to pass and my gut to be wrong. He also thought that if I knew I wouldn't be able to take it. Funny thing is he'd told me all the really bad stuff, even before the test came up, then day before test he told me more. Mostly he lied about the order of things. He was flabbergasted when he realized that I meant what I said...it wasn't the details that were as important to me as the need to have him be honest with me. He then proceeded to get really mad at himself for hurting me over those weeks for nothing. I didn't freak out, I didn't leave him...I was relieved to have it all out.

My gut finally was quiet.

I agree with K on one thing you don't want to live with a liar and to have to rely on polygraphs to get to the truth always.

That's not he kind of person my H was..he was a guy who almost always told truth but would sometimes coat it and sometimes withhold information. The A made him into a liar (this comes from Harley and our MC...both told us that normally honest people have to become expert liars when they enter into an A) of course there are exceptions...some people are pathological liars but that's a whole other story.

So...I wanted him to take the polygraph to settle the A details once and for all, to prove to me and himself that he could tell the truth again and to show me that he cared enough about my sanity to give me peace of mind!!

I was going nuts!

So in our case, yes the polygraph and the aftermath did bring us closer.

With the help of our IC and MC he learned more about his passive/agressive and conflict avoiding personality traits and learned better ways of dealing with conflict and fear.

One other reason I wanted him to take the test...I wanted to see if I was crazy or not...my gut had been right on, all along but he was insisting like crazy that it wasn't working this time because he wasn't hiding anything else. The polygraph proved to both of us that my gut is right...our MC had already told us that I had one of the best gut instincts she'd seen in her 20 years of practice.

Once he came completely clean my gut quieted down. Now I am confident that my H has changed his ways...he's become an poster boy for openness and honesty...if something changes...I now trust my gut to tell me if something is wrong..don't need to keep giving polygraphs.

My gut has gone "off" a few times since he's come clean but now it's more about him struggling with something and when I tell him about my feeling he always opens up.

viz,
i realy have to question the wisdom of doing what you're doing. not because i don't think that you have a right to know or not because i don't think that she's lying...because she probably is lying!

my point is, why do you need a lie detector test to know? this is not a court of law that you're in. you don't need incontravertable evidance! what you need to know is that she understandss how her acts have effected you and that she cares enough to be sorry.

look if she doesn't care about hurting you then what difference does it make what you know? you're problem remains the same...having an unfaithful partner in life...because in all honesty she doesn't need to sleep with him to be unfaithful...all she has to do is favor him or show prefernce for him over you...and if that's the case then you need to do something about it or acept the fact that you don't have a real marraige.

my advice is to skip the tests and get down to work.

coach

my goal is rid my marriage of a wall of dishonesty that keeps my w from being as close to me as she desires to be.
A wall that has caused her to be cool and distant for years.
She's not as close to you as she wants to be because she is dishonest?

She's told me that she knows she "holds back on me", but does not know why.
Perhaps she feels "threatened" on some level when she is honest with you. Not to say it is this, but part of MB is looking at how your actions/reactions may be affecting your spouse and how you can make your relationship "safe" for each other.

It's not possible to be close to someone you're deceiving and/or lying to.
You're right. But how is a lie detector going to make her tell the truth? I believe it will simply drive a wedge between you both. And if she is lying, why would she take it unless she thinks she can "beat" it? In which case she feels the need to lie to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Again, I think the advice you're getting here is just plain bad. Forcing a liar to take a lie detector test to prove that they are a liar is not going to facilitate marriage recovery. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I guess everyone's situation is a bit different, in that all people are different, but I can tell you that in MY case forcing the issue with my H made ALL the difference. Not only was I able to put to rest my fears and suspicions, but it enabled my H to be honest with himself, as well. It took a huge weight off his shoulders in that he was constantly worried that I would "find out" & our marriage would be over. He was then able to relate to me honestly and openly. I know our marriage would not have survived otherwise.

While it's true that maybe all marriages might not benefit from a pursuing the truth in this fashion, mine sure did. My H was taught from a very early age (by not too smart parents) to deny, deny, deny until the end....to lie at all costs. I have some serious issues with my MIL over this, but that's another post for another topic!

Good luck Vizzie, in whatever you decide to do. The main thing is to be able to make peace with yourself, your W and you situation. I thought I could do that without my H being totally honest with me. I tried very hard, but in the end, I had to know.

Thanks for your responses.

My position is this. For years I have been trying to discover the truth. Not with force, but with a gentle, loving approach. I have sought to affirm and convey my love for my w, so as to create security enough for her to tell the truth. At the same time I am about to go "crazy" with doubt and suspicion. Not just based upon my intuition and gut feeling, but factual evidence provided by her actions. And I don't know if I will ever be able to secure her to the point where her security is greater the her fear of the possible repercussions of her actions. An A is risky business, and while intoxicated by the A, the WS does not always consider the risks involved. Judgement is impared, and stupid things are done, which result in clues and evidence, like coming to my home while I am at work (which she now calls bold and dumb). I love my w, and have no intention of dissolving my marriage. But I am also human, and I can't live indefinitely with serious doubt and suspicion, which she is responsible for creating. If I try to do so, I run the risk of losing my "sanity"! My w's recent position, after agreeing to the test, is now to wait until she can talk with our pastor. He knows about this situation, due to my telling him. I had requested that we both talk to him earlier, but she said at the time that she lacked the courage to do so. She has since then wrote him a not saying "thank you", and we're OK. She told me she had done this after the fact, and without my knowledge. My wife talked to one of her girlfriends about the test last night, and she told my wife to be careful, because the test reads emotion, and she already emotional about this issue. So therefore she requested of me to wait until she can talk with my pastor about it. I agreed of course, but still have not changed my mind about her taking the test. Maybe she will tell the truth between now and then, hopefully, and this is not an attempt to stall. My pastor is on vacation for the next 20 to 30 days.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>I love my w, and have no intention of dissolving my marriage. But I am also human, and ,I can't live indefinitely with serious doubt and suspicion which she is responsible for creating.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> If you rule out divorce as a possible consequence then what do you mean 'I can't live indefinitely with serious doubt and suspicion'?

<small>[ August 08, 2003, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Thanks for your reponses.

(I posted this earler, but it didn't take. Operator error I am sure.).

My position is this. For years now I have sought to discover the truth about this situation. I have attempted to create a secure enough situation through the affirmation of my love and the assurance that I would not vacate the marriage. My hope was that by securing my w, she would tell me the truth. But this has not worked. I don't know if I would ever be able to secure her to the point where her security would be greater than her fear of the possible repercussions of her actions. And I am human, I can not live infidefintely with serious doubt and suspicion. To do so, is to risk my own "sanity"! An A is "risky" business, it's committing marital murder! And it's a decision of that BS to allow the marriage to continue. My suspicions and doubts are not just a "gut" feeling, but also based upon evidence and facts that she provided by her actions. And I can't ignore these facts, which I have tried to do so, and just go on. But for me that's not possible. I have sought to forgive her as much as possible, but it's hard to even forgive someone if they're not willing to confess what they have done! (I John 1:9)My w's recent position on the test, after just agreeing to take it and asking me to set it up, is now to wait until she can talk with our pastor. He knows about this situation in detail, due to my telling him. I was seeking support at the time. I agreed that we could wait. Hopefully, this is not an attempt to stall, and she will tell the truth in the interim. My position on her taking the test has not changed. I had oringinally requested that we both talk to our pastor, but my w said that she lacked the courage to do so, at the time. Since then she has written him a note saying thank you, but we're OK! She told me about the note after the fact, which she wrote to him without my knowledge. So, I agreed to wait until she talks with our pastor. He's on vacation for the next 20 to 30 days. Again, I hope this is not a stall. My w talked with a girlfriend of her's last night about the test. The girlfriend told her to be careful, because the polygraph test reads emotion, and she is already emotional about this issue. This resulted in her asking me to wait.

Thanks for your repsonses.

I posted this previously, but it did not take for some reason. Probably operator error!

My position is this. For years I have sought to discover the truth about this situation. I have sought to create enough security through love and assuring my w that I would not vacate the marriage, even if I was tramutized by discovery. But it has not worked. I doubt if I will ever be able to secure her enough so that her feeling secure out weighs her fear of possible repercussions for her actions. An A is risky business, it's murder on a marriage. And my suspicions and doubts are not generated from intuition, but by evidence and facts that she provided by her actions. I have tried to just let it go, and go on. But for me that's not possible. I have sought to forgive as much as possible. But it's hard to forgive when a person is not willing to confess (I John 1:9). And I am human, I can not live indefinitely with doubt and suspicion. If I try to do that, I run the risk of losing my "sanity"! At this point, I must know the truth, if my marriage is to be a marriage! Two people loving, trusting, and caring for one another! After agreeing to taking the test, asking me to set it up, my w has asked to wait. This morning my wife asked if she could wait until she talked with our pastor, before taking the test. I agreed to do so, but I hope it's not a stall for time. Our pastor is on vacation for the next 20-30 days. He knows about the situation in detail, due to my telling him. I was crying out for help and support. Afterwards I wanted me and my wife to talk with him together, which my pastor also wanted, but my wife said she lacked the courage to do so at the time. I didn't fully understand this. She recently wrote him a note saying thank you and that we were OK. She told me she had wrote him the note after she had done so, without my knowledge. Last night, my w spoke to a girlfriend about taking the polygraph test. The girlfriend told her to be careful, because the test reads emotion. And that she's emotional about the issue right now. This resulted in her asking me to wait until she talks with our pastor. Hopefully she will voluntarily tell me the truth in the interim, hopefully!

TOOmuchCoffee Man,

What I mean by this, is that I must discover the truth, even if it means a polygraph test. The vehicle of the truth or means to the truth must at least be equal to my degree of doubt and suspicion. I mentioned this to my wife. She has stated that there is nothing more she can offer, she does not remember or she denies it all.

If I know the truth, we can work to overcome it and heal. If I don't, it's like trying to put a band-aid on a stab wound. That's crazy!

If my w remains unwilling, to take the test, or to tell the truth, then what? I really don't know!

Today has been a real tough day! As you can see from my redundant postings! Maybe I have had too-much-coffee, man! (laugh)

I haven't eaten all day, my w is distant and cool (which I can understand), and I am still dealing with deep doubts and suspicions. All while trying to work and do the things you still have to do! It's tough, and it's been a tough day! If it wasn't for God's help, I know I would be either crazy or dead from a stroke by now!