Have not seen you post for a few days. Did I forget you were going somewhere or is there trouble? Ron

Hi Ron, <P>My W came home Monday night (her first day back to the university where she will have daily contact with OM for 4 months), visibly upset. It looked liked she had been crying but she didn't want to talk about her day at all. She was angry and asked me to leave her alone for a while. Maybe contact with OM went poorly and she was upset? Maybe contact with OM reignited some old feeling and that is why she was upset? I don't know what to make of it. I am extremely anxious as to what the next four months of daily contact will do to our relationship. <P>She surprised me last weekend. Going all the way back to last Christmas, which was a few weeks after she told me all the hurtful things that she felt, I was in my begging and pleading mode to save our marriage. One of the gifts I gave her was a gift certificate for taking dance lessons with me. I thought that might help bring us together. At that time she said it was too late and resented the gift deeply. Well, last weekend she said "Do you still want to do those dance lessons?" I was really surprised. Of course I said yes and I'm looking into it again. <P>Over all, she seems pretty content with the way things are - why shouldn't she be she's getting a ton of attention from me. But, it depresses me that she doesn't have that physical desire for me. She doesn't want to touch me, she doesn't offer any affection, and she doesn't want to talk about deep issues. <P>I'm holding up OK. I really enjoy giving right now. I enjoy touching her a lot. I suppose that this is meeting my physical need in some way. I don't know what else I can do to make myself attractive for her. I've lost thirty pounds I'm pretty fit and trim. As always, I suppose the answer is time.<P>SHA

Hi SHA<BR>I’m sorry to hear about her trouble on Monday. But I can’t say it surprised me. Her not wanting to talk is so much like my situation I can relate to that very well. You would like to think she was upset because they both acted professionally, accepting that the affair was over. That maybe she was just hoping for something a little more but happy it never happened. Maybe she knows it has ended and feels bad about that. This is what I am hoping. But maybe she was unable to resist and it is on again and she is torn again and she is upset over that. You just don’t know. If only they would talk it would be easier to deal with. <P>Can you take 4 months of this? Can the two of you? What is she going to school for anyway (rhetorical question)? I hope it is something real important because it seems there are some major sacrifices being made for it. Please don’t take my comments as being critical. I just think you both should come up with some way for her to avoid contact. I read the other day about the woman’s H whose OM is next door. Wow! How do you deal with that? Seems like something has gotta give. <P>I hope she is still up for the dance lessons. This could be one of those things you do as a new couple. New memories etc. Hope it works out. My W is a little better about the affection but it is almost all initiated by me too. I guess I should just be thankful she doesn’t give me the "hands to home" command like we use to say to the kids. It is amazing all that I once took for granted. Sure hope we get it back. Keep doing what you are doing. You continue to be an inspiration. I’ll pray for your W’s strength.<P>Ron<BR>

Hi Ron, <P>Thanks for your reply; and no, I don't take any of your comments as being critical. To answer your questions, she is in her last semester for a nursing degree. She is currently an LPN. After this semester and the state boards she will have an RN license. She may keep going in school to receive a master's degree; she's thinking about it. If she did, it would be through another university - thank God.<P>For most of our marriage, she was a stay at home mom. She homeschooled the kids for many years and devoted her life to me and the kids. Like a complete boob, I took that for granted. I ignored her too much. She reached out to me for affection, conversation, and many other needs. I was an idiot and didn't appreciate all that she was. She finally gave up and stopped reaching out to me. So, she decided she needed a career to fill a large void that I was not filling. I supported her decision to go back to school. She wanted some independence from me (still does) and thoroughly enjoys her profession. She is also very good at nursing too. <P>So, now she has some new found freedom, she has friends which she never really had as a stay at home mom, and she seems happy with the way things are. <P>I am not sure what the next four months holds for us. I am worn out from obsessing about it. I don't want to snoop anymore. I don't want to worry anymore. So, I am trying to trust. I don't expect much progress in regards to our marriage relationship for the next few months. School and work are very stressful. My goal is to keep things from going down hill. I have thought about us moving to another state when she gets out of school to start fresh and put a lot of distance between her an OM. She actually wasn't against the idea so we'll see.<P>She is still willing to do the dance lessons which is a great sign. I am really surprised because with school and work she is very busy. You know, for our entire marriage she has been wanting me to take her dancing and I refused to go. I was never interested in jerking around on the dance floor like an idiot. We rented the movie "Strictly Ballroom" and my view of dancing changed. I'm looking forward to doing the rhumba, tango or two-step. I hope it will bring some closeness between us. I like what you said about creating new memories - I think it will.<P>So, enough about me Ron, how are things with you and your W? Is she making strides back to you? Is she in withdrawal? Are you going to get back into boat racing? We saw the Thomas Crown Affair (good movie) and they had a scene with him racing a huge catermaran - looked pretty intense. What exactly does "hands to home" mean? Do you know what your W's needs are? Are you giving her lots of conversation and touch? Are you guys dating? We've gone out more in the last 6 months than we have in our previous 16 years of marriage. She likes it and I like it too. <P>Let me know how you are doing.<P>SHA<p>[This message has been edited by Sir Hurts Alot (edited August 26, 1999).]

Hi you guys..sneaking in here and enjoying your thoughts...helps me to continue to understand my H better....<P>Just wanted to say that I'm glad you are still around. Sir, I like that dancing idea...my H and I did that for a little while last year and it was fun.. <P>-janet<BR>

SHA,<BR>I've had you on my mind all week as I've started back to work (teaching) this week. It seems your wife's freeze may be melting with her tears and desire to dance with you. I hope you take those lessons in a jiffey. Has she spoken about class and OM yet?

SHA<BR>This is encouraging news. I think considering a move is a good idea. It could be something to plan for and for both of you to look forward to. It would get her away from the OM. It would get your family in a new and fresh environment. I have been in my current job for 20+ years and lived in my current house for about 10. My kids are very settled in. To move would be a big shock to us all. But nothing like the shock of us splitting up. And I'd do it in a heartbeat if it meant saving my marriage. That would be an easy decision. Now, not to be negative but sometimes even moving doesn't work. I remember as a kid, our family moved 800 miles (big promotion for my Dad and to get away from the OW - don't know what percentage for each) and within 6 months the OW had moved to our new location. Anyway, I really do think it is something you should consider. <BR>I'm also glad to hear this is the last semester (although 4 months will seem like an eternity I'm sure). At least the end of "forced contact" is in sight.<BR>Interesting about your Ws background. Mine too stayed at home for several years (after working for several- where we met). In a way I hated to see her return to work because I have always felt working increased the chances of affairs and viewed it as a threat to the safety of any marriage. On the other hand, I myself can't imagine not working. Not to uphold the male working stereotype either. I guess at work I kid around in some ways and sometimes even do things with females I work with that are just a little inappropriate. But I always feel confident they would never lead to anything. I just like to work and don't feel I'd be deprived not to. On the other hand, I have always felt my W was very vulnerable and couldn't say no. She is very smart but is just not the type of woman that cant ignore some guy getting fresh with her. I guess I just feel the risks involved in her working outweigh the rewards to her as an individual. I think working meets a lot of needs that don't put a marriage in risk. So I'm glad for her that she does. I sense you feel the same way.<BR>And I'm glad she is still interested in the dancing. It is a sign. She wants new memories too. Better jump on that. My W and I have taken a few swing dance lessons. I'm no good at it and don't really like it but I know my W does so I go along like you are doing. It is fun just to get out as a couple.<BR>I'm at work late and need to get out of here so will send this when I get home and give you an update on my W and I later. In general things are looking up a little.<P>Janet<BR>Howdy. Had just about given up on you. I've been on this board for a while now and am beginning to see trends. A few old timers, some returns, lots of new people (unfortunately). I was thinking you were phasing out. I could see why you would. People like SHA and I continue to need this. But it takes a lot of time. I envy your H because of your commitment and, in general where you are in rebuilding. Hope all is still on track. Are you spending more time together (is he home more from traveling)?

Janet - Glad to see your are still lurking out there. I believe you have a Bday coming up - am I right or has it already passed? your input is always welcomed.<P>FC - I know you are having a very tough week. Are you holding up OK? No talk about OM. I'm afraid to bring it up directly. I continue to ask open ended questions about her day, so if she wants to say something I'm always ready to listen. The last few days have been better than Monday. She's a perfectionist in all she does and will settle for nothing less than an "A" in her classes. So, she is already diving in to her studies. She tells me she appreciates all I do around the house. I've taken over most things and she now verbally thanks me for dinners, cleaning, fixing kids lunches etc, which is nice. She keeps wondering when I'm going to cave-in on my giving her back rubs. She gently says I don't have to every night if I don't want to. I tell her I look forward to it and that I very much enjoy touching her. She says OK. We talk a little while I rub her back and I think it's a nice bonding time for us. Dance lessons are pending. I'm looking forward to them, I'll keep you posted.<P>Ron - we share the same opinion about our W's working. My W really enjoys the work and being out in the real world. She is still a wonderful mother and still finds the time to share with each. That scores big love deposits with me and I make sure she knows that. Her day is filled with great stories and life and death decisions. So, we have plenty to talk about now. I don't mind her working at all. I know how much innocent flirting goes on in the work place between men and women, and I believe I can trust her. Things were so bad between us when the OM entered the picture that I fully understand how that relationship came to be. I honestly don't think it will happen with another man, I just still worry about the current OM a little.<P>I'm looking forward to the specifics about you and your W. Also, I'm a little curious about how your kids are handeling it. Do they know? My oldest (13) has had some suspecions about something being wrong with mom and dad. He over heard several discussions and approached me and my W separately about whether or not we were going to get a divorce. We were able to calm his fears and he certainly doesn't see anything wrong now. Actually, he sees dad being very loving towards mom which is something I should have always done. <P>

Salior,<BR>Hi...yep I've been here, just kind of quiet that's all... I read most everyday except on the weekends...I don't know, just don't have as much energy I guess. <P>You're right there are trends. It's kind of weird and sad isn't it, like you said - 'unfortuately.' It's the same monster in each of our lives. It still amazes me to read the stories of all the pain and see the same exact situations over and over. It makes me realize that the similarities speak to ONE author don't they? <P>I still need this place too, I just do in a different way, and I guess that's good. Thanks for the encouragement...Things are going pretty well, but not always great. I guess in much less of a dramatic way there are the two steps forward one step back. Actually my H has been home more lately, though the next couple of weeks will be off to San Fransico and possibly NY. We don't talk about the affair too much and I hope it's because we are moving beyond it and not burying it. I want us to be completely free but I realize it is still a long way off.<P>I think its great that you and Sir want your wives to talk. Sometimes it is just so hard for me to do that. But you are right it is easier...<P>It's also interesting to hear about the 'stay at home' mom issue. This is one of my biggest fears. I don't have any children yet and I am terrifed. I want to be home with them if we do have some, yet it scares me. Will I be completely forgotten? I believe it's selfishness that I am dealing with again here. In any case, you and Sir making sure that your W's know you appreciate all they did, and do in caring for your kids...makes a huge difference.<P>I'm glad you and your W are doing better - at least you seemed to be saying that, and I hope that's true. I will be keeping tabs on you...and praying for continued improvement. <P><BR>SIR,<BR>You are correct I'll be 30 on Sunday. Today my co-workers made my cube a 'big statement' Signs and balloons everywhere...'Guess who's 30' and all of that. It is a strange one to me that is for sure. I've been married 8.5 years and have no kids (like I was saying to sailor, not sure I'm ready even now) <P>Well, those back rubs have got to be the most loving thing you can do. Last nite my H rubbed my feet and legs ...talking about feeling loved, it was so nice. Keep up your good work there, I will pray that all the love you are giving WILL BE RETURNED 100 fold..<P>Maybe if you and Sailor have time you could tell me what you would have done differently while your W's were home with the kids...what did you think of her then, and how would that be different if she were 'home' now? I know you said "Actually, he sees dad<BR>being very loving towards mom which is something I should have always done.".......This made me curious... If you have time to share any thoughts on that, of course..thanks..<P>Have a good day...<BR>-janet<p>[This message has been edited by rjr #2 (edited August 27, 1999).]

Hi Janet, <P>I won't be posting this weekend so let me first say Happy Birthday!!! <P>I hope I didn't scare you in regards to having kids. I have four ranging from 13 yrs to 5 yrs. I can honestly say that I don't remember homelife before kids. You learn so much about yourself when you have them - it's amazing. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>what you would have done differently while your W's were home with the kids...what did you think of her then, and how would that be different if she were 'home' now?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The first thing I would have done differently was to pay better attention to her needs. A stay at home mom is very isolated from the rest of the world. Society does not place their efforts very high in importance. Their day is filled with diaper changes, barney programs, crying, dirty dishes, dirty laundry, etc. She looks forward to her H coming home and taking over. She is in dire need of adult conversation. She is in need of a break with peace and quiet. My W says I did a pretty good job with those; but I KNOW I could have done much better. I would have taken er out on more dates. I would have demanded she go out with the girls while I took care of things at home. I would have taken more responsibility for household chores. And I would have talked to her more. Multiply all that effort by 4 and throw in the added stress of homeschooling and you get a good idea of what my W took on. She is quite a lady. She got burned out. She went to school and got her first job in 17 years this summer. She waited until our youngest was old enough that he wasn't so demanding of her time. I think if she were home now, she would get a little bored. All of the kids are now in school. So, I think things are working out for her. To sum it up Janet, I would have been the H to her then that I am now. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"Actually, he sees dad being very loving towards mom which is something I should have always done.".......This made me curious... If you have time to share any thoughts on that, of course..thanks..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>As you probably know, my W and I drifted apart. Neither of us were meeting each others needs. I neglected her BIG TIME. Our conversations were probably at most 1 minute a day. We didn't kiss, we didn't hug, we didn't touch, we didn't pray together, we weren't much of an example to our kids about what loving parents should be. I read a quote "The greatest thing a man can do for his son, is to show him how much he loves his mother." I was a very poor example. My oldest son is 13. He is starting to think about girls. I want him to know how to honor and cherish a woman. Talk is cheap. He now sees me giving a lot of attention to his mom. He sees us talking a lot, he sees us giving one another a kiss, he sees me giving her hair/back/foot rubs. He sees me opening the car door for her. He sees me doing what she asks me to do. He sees me thanking her when she does something for me. I could on, the point is he now sees his dad as an example of how to treat a lady. <P>Janet, while my wife isn't vocal about it, I'm sure she is very happy that I have awakened from my self absorbsion. I am a real giver now. I cherish her like never before. She continues to be amazed at the changes in me. She has given to me and our family for so long, I feel it is my turn to be the giver - as I said on another thread her ship has come in - finally. I'm glad she didn't give up on me. We still have a long way to go. I'm hopeful that we will make it.<P>Glad to see you are still lurking. You have helped me so much especially in my very dark days a couple of months ago. Thank you.<P>SHA

SHA,<P>Thanks for taking the time to write that. WOW. It is exactly what I wanted to know. You sound like you've got it together now. That is excellent. I'd have to guess that it is impossible for a woman to be loved like you are now endeavoring to love your wife, and her NOT coming around full swing! Hang in there!!!<P>My H is taking me downtown for the night Sat night, for my birthday... It should be fun..I am looking forward to it. <P>Thank YOU, for helping me! Have a great weekend...<P>-janet

Hi Janet<BR>Just a real quick one. Wanted to wish you a happy birthday in case it is today. I see a couple new posts on this thread but no time to read right now. So, Happy Thirtyth. Ron

SHA<BR>You have encouraging news. Tell me to mind my own business if I'm being nosy but is OM another student or prof. etc.? Do they have classes together that forces contact or is he just going to the same school? Sounds like your W is handling things and that is great. Her being out of school in 4 months will be a great thing to look forward to. It will free up a lot of time for her, less stress, give you a break on housework, end contact with OM, and allow the two of you to really enjoy one another and concentrate on your marriage and family together. So keep doing what you are doing.<P>To answer some of your questions about my W and me. Last contact with OM was two weeks ago - him calling to find out what his W and mine talked about the previous week. I really think the affair is dead or close to it. I have been impatient and did some love busting, all along but, mostly in July and early this month. In the last week and a half I have done no love busting (since she said she was considering moving out with the girls). I guess I realized it can get worse. My W had talked to Harley on the phone 1.5 months ago and he told her to get and read SAA. She got it but reading it is a very low priority - has been have way through and stuck for 3 weeks. On a daily basis, most toughing and kissing etc. is initiated by me although she will initiate some affection every few days. The night before last, she fell asleep in my arms - real nice. Things like that do a lot for me but then last night, she stayed up past midnight to talk to our oldest and read. It is like a spigot - off and on and off and on. She is constantly doing for others - primarily our girls. Between work, Church, friends, and the girls, she has essentially no time to work on anything related to us. But I don't think she wants to have time so all those things just give her an excuse not to. <P>To answer some of your specific questions: I plan to get back into windsurfing this fall. This has always been one of my passions and there have been several reasons I have not been doing it but I plan to make more of an effort. "Hands to Home" - just to keep your hands to yourself - like when the kids are wacking or tickling one another at the dinner table etc. and it one is getting irritated. My W's needs - I guess I know them. We did the Harley "needs" questionnaire in about March. It was very half hearted on her part. She doesn't like stuff like that with lots of structure, lists, formulas etc. I didn't feel I learned much I didn't already know. On second thought I guess I don't know. She doesn't talk. I ask her how she feels about anything and it is "just fine". How can you feel you don't know a person as much as I do and feel you know their needs? I do give her a fair amount of touching and she responds fairly well. She is hurting and I do believe she likes to be held and know she is loved. I like to have conversations but I'm not good at it. I'm too blunt, insensitive, probing, judgmental, etc. I'm currently reading Gary Smalley's book Making Love last Forever. I'm reading the chapter on conversation and will be trying to implement some of it. Good book. I have read or heard much of it before but I need to do, not just read. Dating? Not unless you consider doing things with church groups and the girls dating. The first 3 months after discovery, we went out every Friday night. She told me she looked forward to that and I thought it was one piece of the puzzle to recovery. But then in about June she announced she wanted to discontinue this - no reason. I asked her the other day if she would go out to dinner alone with me this weekend and she said yes so we are going out tomorrow night. I envy you in this area.<P>Our girls are 9 and 15. My W told the 15 year old about the OM several months ago. She wants no part of any discussion of any of this - especially with me. My 9 year old is a snoop and has discovered a couple printed Harley articles and questioned my W. My W told her we were having some problems but are working on our marriage. I have made a couple scenes in front of the girls making statements like "I just don't know if I can go on with things the way they are". My W has always been very protective of the girls and our parenting styles are much different which has caused them to be very close to my W and distant to me. I love them dearly and my style is not much different than most Moms and Dads but my W is soooo forgiving and cuddly etc. that it makes me look like a bad guy. Almost any discipline I try to impose is reversed by my W. Parenting issues are definitely one of our problems. The 9-year-old knows there are problems and her behavior has changed dramatically in the last 3 months. She clings to my W all the time. My W can't go anywhere without her. I feel it is sad. I think she is afraid of loosing her Mom. I know that wouldn't happened but she doesn’t. I feel we should discuss it with her to reduce her anxiety but my W disagrees. I read a book recently on what to discuss with your kids (about lots of subjects like sex, death etc.). My W took little interest in the suggestions of the author. My W's mode is to just pretend none of this is happening. <BR>

Hi Ron, <P>I don't have time to respond to your post but I do have some more questions. Boy, a lot of what your W is doing hits home with me. I'll respond on Monday. <P>Have a good weekend!<P>SHA

SHA,<BR>I hope your wife realizes how lucky she is to have a H who is so empathetic:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Their day is filled with diaper changes, barney<BR> programs, crying, dirty dishes, dirty laundry, etc. She looks forward to her H coming<BR> home and taking over. She is in dire need of adult conversation. She is in need of a<BR> break with peace and quiet. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I have been a SAHM for our six kids for three years. Previously I worked at least part-time during our entire marriage. I am also homeschooling the kids, and until a year ago was either pregnant or nursing all but sixteen months of the previous 19 years. My H rarely did housework, although he cooked on weekends. He was ok with me going out for the evening occasionally - if I took whomever was the baby at the time.

Janet<BR>First let me say that I feel having kids is the most rewarding thing a person can get out of life. I hope you are thinking of when, not whether, to have them. Sure, there are many times when they try your patience and can be a real pain but it is just unbelievable the joy they bring. I’m normally not a very emotional person but when one of my kids gets up in some church program or school play etc., it is all I can do to hold back tears of pride. I have a few friends who have never had any and I wish I could tell them what they are missing. You just can’t put the feelings into words. <P>It is hard for me to answer your question about what I didn’t do when my W was at home. My W loves mothering. She loves domestic chores. I have (lightly encouraged her to have hobbies and other activities but she is doing what she wants. There are many things I could have and should have done differently but most of them apply to my behavior. I guess one thing is our sex life and intimate times. When you have kids, opportunities become scarce. My W has always had a pretty strong desire. But, about 6 years ago, I began having some disfunction. I never really understood exactly why but I think the kids were a part of it. There were several possible reasons but I could have done more to please my W in spite of it. This went on for a couple years and caused her to loose interest. Then I came out of it and have since been unable to get her to return to her initial self. I guess this is pretty personal for the world - hope only you are reading this and will keep it to yourself. Anyway, when you have little ones, make time for your spouse and keep the fire in your love life. <P>Also, don’t think that having kids means you are tied down. There are all kinds of social opportunities. Also, there is the possibility of part time work - which is what my W is doing now and it is great. Of course, having 4 like SHA could be an entirely different story from my situation. Many do have that many (and more) but that could be real tough.<P>So, tomorrow is the big day. Well, Happy Birthday! Hope you and your H had a real nice time. Tell him someone here told you to tell him they think he is a real lucky guy to have someone like you. <P>Ron<BR>