Hi Cerri. I was advised to come in here and get your advise or opinion. You can read my thread in e/n titled 'please.. honestly'.

Is plan B what I should do?

Thank you for your help

bump

She's usually really busy, Jeni, but she'll get here.

Jeni,

Oh my. I am so sorry you are dealing with all this. You don't say, or I missed it, whether or not you have children? I'm assuming not? And how long have you been married?

Ok... so let's talk a little about anger and control stuff. Anger is a symptom of control. It's a strategy to get what we want from someone else, and it stems from the attitude or belief that we have the right to tell someone else what to do (or how to do it) regardless of how it makes that person feel.

People with anger problems are generally the last to know that they have a problem. Their friends know, their families know, their coworkers know... but they remain oblivious to the destruction their words and actions cause.

Anger is instinctual. We're born with the tendency to use demands disrepsect and anger to get our way, and our cultural conditioning just reinforces that tendency. It's rare that we learn at a young age how to be honest about our needs and feelings and to negotiate respectfully for the things we want.

Anger is often an addiction. People get a high out of losing their temper. I'm sure you've read about the abuse cycle where there is a blow up, followed by remorse and apologies and promises to never do it again (unless it's verbal abuse then there generally is not an apology), the honeymoon phase where everything is good, and then the tension starts to build again, and then the blow up...

Well, the blow up feels good to the one with the anger problem. It relieves the tension and clears the air, for them. Everything seems better.

The thing about anger is that when we lose our temper the part of our brain that's in control is the part that never developed beyond the age of 2. So when it looks like a toddler having a temper tantrum there's a very good reason for that.

Like other addictions anger is dishonest. It lies to us about the pain and destruction it wreaks on the lives around us. So that's why your H brushes off your complaints about his behavior. To him it seems minor, he doesn't feel your pain and in fact he feels better after a blow up.

The substance abuse and possible addiction is not so much instinctual as it is selfish. Although both the anger and the drug/alcohol use are failures to take your feelings into account when making decisions, this is more so.

The family issue and the decision about where you live is exactly the same. If your marriage (or any marriage for that matter) is to be successful then both spouses need to put the feelings and cares of their partner ahead of family and friends. Sometimes even to the detriment of family and friends. If you're not happy about seeing his dad under the current conditions then it is your husband's responsibility to let his father know that and to make your feelings a priority. I would say that neither of you sees him unless and until his behavior changes enough that you can be comfortable in his presence.

Alright.... so that's some of the theory. How do you get from here to there. Well, the road is long and rocky, that's a given.

I would lean towards Plan B, but I'd be willing to discuss Plan A with limited contact. I guess I'd need to know more about his willingness to keep you and the marriage. Is he at all willing to talk about the things that hurt you? Has he shown any indication that he's willing to make adjustments?

And no, under no conditions should you move there with him. It's not safe either physically or emotionally.

Fill me in a little more....

C

Cerri,
He has a child from a previous marriage. We have been married a little over four years, I am 32 and he is 30.
He says he has quit marijuana but that is something that I dont know 100%. Honestly, he has not shown me any real changes. He thinks it is my fault for all of these problems. He does not hear the things that I tell him at all and as far as mt feelings go about moving up there he says that I am overreacting. I have seen this man at work. He is as down and dirty as they come.
My husband even asked me once 'so do you think you will move up there when my dad dies?' I said No and he said 'you got that right, the he!! you will'. I really feel like it is about his family and the property the he has been given and not how I feel. I have been on my own for five months and have bucked up to him every way I can (because I will not move) and he throws a tantrum.
He is not responsible for himself at all. He has had his electric turned off twice in five months. It just always seems like I am somehow responsible for him and what happens to him. When in my opinion I have always been the one to take care of things. A good instance is when he came down the other day and mowed a 1/8 of my yard and quit. He has not mowed my yard since I have lived there so I dont know what I was expecting but he said he was tired and hot. See, he knows that I will do it.
There have been a couple of things in the past that make think his behavior may get worse. Once he held a belt up at me as a threat to shut me up. another time he was outside running some dogs of with a bb gun because they were tearing out our trash and stuff like that upsets me any way and I hollered at him to stop and he turned around a pointed it at my foot (to get me to hush) . another time was we had a argument in the vehicle and he got mad and grabbed my arm pretty hard. Then recently when he threw things in the house and broke alot of my stuff. This is a good instance of how he doesnt listen to me.... I told him over the weekend (on the phone) that it was over because I just dont see any kind of resolution and he told me how chicken sh*t I was to tell him that on the phone and I come home later and he is grilling steaks on the grill as if nothing was wrong. And all I hear is I love you, I love you and I know our love is strong.
Another problem is he goes to court in October for custody of his child (bad mother) and somehow it is my problem and will be my problem if doesnt get custody because we are separated, blah,blah.
Your information is great and extremely informative. I really apprectiate you taking the time to help.
I understand that everyone gets mad but I think there is a line that you just dont cross.
The last thing is the other day he is telling me he will move our home to the other end of the property and that is suppose to make me happy. I tell him to please leave me alone and let me think. Well, he took that as a yes and tells his family that is the only way I will move up there (that way his dad will give him the side of the property he wants and not the side that is near his dad) I have tried and tried to make him understand why I dont want to live there but all he sees is that we own that place and I am renting. He wants things in life and sometimes we have to sacrafice to have something.

Thank you again and sorry for the long post. I hope it make sense.

jenigirl, what you're saying is scaring me. This isn't just anger and control issues. This is down right violent behaviour. Right now toward you is not overt yet. However, it is implied: threats of violence, destruction of your property, etc. I don't know where you live but in Ontario these are still criminal acts under the Family Law Act on Domestic Violence. I am afraid for you that these will escalate. Since he has a child from another relationship, I fear for them as well.

Please get yourself to a safe place and know that it is NOT YOU--IT'S HIM. No one else is responsible for how they react except the person themselves. He chooses to act this way not you.

Be strong. Remember there is safety in numbers. Tell everyone you can who will listen.

Yes. Violent, abusive, addicted, controlling. Not willing to listen. This is why I have recommended her going to Plan B. I wanted her to ask cerri about it first.

She may have to get a court order to enforce Plan B. This is way way way over my head.

<small>[ August 14, 2003, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

Sab, thank you for responding. I am sure cerri will resond again too.

So you think this is more than control issues? I agree but, I am just torn as what to do. I tell myself that he would never hurt me but, I do know that when I tell him again that I will not move up there he will get mad again.
Do you think I am being selfish by making such a demand that I will not move near his father? Again, I feel like I am right in feeling the way I do but he has no concept of my feelings no matter how I express myself.
I have never been in a relationship like this, one where I feel afraid to tell somehow I will not do something. I guess that is every clue I need, huh?
Again, thank you

Violence is used to control. Your H has a pronounced usage of it, to the point of being scary.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you think I am being selfish by making such a demand that I will not move near his father? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is not a demand, it is a boundry. Demands are about what your H does - boundries are about what YOU will or will not do. If you are not enthusiastic, you shouldn't do it. You've got some boundry issues of your own. This is an overzealous Giver, and it will not help you any more than an overzealous Taker would.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I tell myself that he would never hurt me but, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now why would you tell yourself something like that? He IS hurting you. Even if it is just verbally and emotionally. He wants you to do something that would hurt you - move next to or in with your FIL. Denial isn't going to help you, either.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I feel like I am right in feeling the way I do but he has no concept of my feelings no matter how I express myself.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How is he ever going to have a concept of your feelings when you give in to him in spite of how you feel? How is he ever going to respect your boundries when you don't?

BTW, Jeni, how old are you? This isn't a judgement on my part, I'm only 27, I just want to know.

takola,

I am 32. I wonder if it is normal to not see how
extreme this situation is? I mean is there something wrong with me for always saying 'well, if he does that one more time or certain things I will not put up with'. I just dont know where I draw the line. I thought I did a good job by moving out, I guess not good enough.

btw - it means alot that you and others care <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jen,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I tell myself that he would never hurt me but, I do know that when I tell him again that I will not move up there he will get mad again.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are in denial, hon, anyone that you are afraid of their reaction, is hurting you. If HE loved you and was very interested in care and protection you would feel safe in you feelings.

I know, my H controled me, he didn't really abuse me, but I didn't feel "safe" to be honest with him. I would do things to avoid making him mad. It spiraled and got me in alot of trouble.

IMO, you need a list of things you want from him before you move anywhere with him. To me for you to feel safe, anger management is a must as well as showing some financial responsibilty. You need to see a DRAMITIC improvement before contact continues.

I would (for your safety) go directly to plan B. He has alot of changing to do before you can feel safe and protected.

Do you have family near you or friends. This sounds drastic but given his abusive past I would look at changing my numer and possible restriction to ensure he didn't hurt you.

Le

What to do with an abusive H.

How to Overcome an Abusive Marriage: Am I Trivializing the Term Abuse?

Plan B Guidelines Per Cerri

<small>[ August 14, 2003, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I wonder if it is normal to not see how
extreme this situation is? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, it is normal. People who are victims of this sort of abuse have boundry problems. Their Giver is on steriods or something. They never learned healthy boundries as a child (I was abused as a child). You don't have to be to never learn proper boundries, but I was. In the context of their lives, this isn't so abnormal. It may be that you've just grown used to it over the course of your M. It could be that (like I did) you have such an aversion to the word 'victim' or anything having to do with being one, that you deny you are one. To deny you are one is to deny the abuse.

People who don't have boundry problems don't find themselves in these situations as much as people who do not. The first AO or whatever happens during dating, and it triggers a red flag. If it begins during marriage, they put their feet down long before this.

In your situation, the abuse is bad. You should not move in with him until he can guarantee your safety - BY MEANS OTHER THAN 'HIS WORD'. He needs treatment, and you need to give him space until he has it.

This is why I recommend Plan B with a restraining order. This is further than I've been with anyone in my experience here, so I want Cerri's opinion on the matter. I have reason to believe she will stop back in.

<small>[ August 14, 2003, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

cerri,

That is a wonderful post! Thank you. It has a lot of thought, information, and effort behind it. I know that you are busy.

Takola,
I am sorry about your past. I too was abused as a child (sexually) by my step father and he spent ten years in prison. I told myself I would never be in a situation that was abusive again. But, here I am.

That may also be why your H was so attracted to you. People with abusive and controlling personalities tend to seek out/find people who are receptive to that treatment. There was a good thread about this on EN a while back, but it was over a year ago and I couldn't find it if I had to.

I'm sorry about your abuse. I wondered, given your boundry problems. This is at a pronounced state, and you are still a bit uncertain and wavering over whether or not to draw the line. That's why I initially pegged you with boundry problems.

A point that LE brought up that you should understand is about trying not to make him mad. You need to combine this with what Cerri says (and she's not the only one who says this, btw - almost every abuse site on the internet has the same abuse cycle posted) about him WANTING to blow up because it feels good. You are never, but never, no matter how 'good' you are, going to keep him from getting mad. At the height of the 'Tension Building' phase he is LOOKING for a reason to blow up. He will find one, whether or not you are willing to present him with one.

Another point is that the cycle between honeymoon/blow-up phases shortens. The cycle speeds up, and the intensity increases. This is noticable in the blow-up phase especially, but is also noticable in the honeymoon phase. (BTW, I call the honeymoon phase the butt-kissing phase.)

<small>[ August 14, 2003, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: *Takola* ]</small>

Jeni,

Yeah, it's almost impossible to see how bad it is when you're in it. I was, in my 20's and early 30's, the most militant feminist (still am.... just kinder and gentler now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) And then I.... who never stood for any crap from anyone.... found myself in a horribly verbally abusive R. And I couldn't see how bad it was. We get too caught up in it to be able to be ojective. That's why people whose spouses are cheating need help knowing what to do.

Yeah, I think you need Plan B. The things you're doing now aren't helping, they're just creating more conflict and more arguments. You need to step back and take care of you.

Now, what do you know about the MB concepts? Have you read any of the books? Here's what I would suggest, write a PBL, I'll help if you like... I see Tak posted a link to the guidelines...

Then order Love Busters from the bookstore link above. Read it. While you're waiting for it to come, read all the info here on anger, control, abuse and love busters in general. That will be far more helpful right now than the forum will be.

When you get through that.... let's talk more about the conditions for reconciliation when Plan B ends.

My suggestions, in order:
Plan B letter
Order Love Busters
Read LBer and abuse info on site
Then let's talk about conditions for reconciliation
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

C

Bump for Jenigirl.

Jeni.... I'm so far behind.... what is happening and is there anything you're looking for from me?

C

<] <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi Cerri <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Well, I sent him the plan B letter. He called me the next am at work and said the ugliest things to me. I hung up. He has called and left me a message that he would be filing for divorce the next day. I dont know if he has or not. He has come by my house and he finally did leave. While he was there I asked him something about smoking marijuana and he told me that he was still smoking. I had not idea he was comming down. He has no respect for what I tell him. I hope it doesnt happen again. Everything happened so fast and then he was gone. He did throw a coffe cup and break it and he also got mad and threw potato chips at me.

I do have a question for you. I do not think he will get help for addiction or anger mgmt. as a matter of fact I know he wont. What do I do then? I am sick of trying and he could care less.