there has been a PPO served? Yes, its a bogus one! Filled with false allegations!!!
W left in Feb. March w filed for D, and the PPO.
I now have custody of our children,,,,
days ago when W returned our children, she spoke of missing her old job (W had moved to another town) how i did this and or that. That i never said i love you in words enough.
At one time said she'd come back, if i did something with my 12 YS. (ultimatum)
We spoke of her returning home, (i reassured her its never too late) She said how she was the happiest when she worked part time. i spoke how she could still get her daycare going. Her reply was i still haven't finished the bathroom.

Our children spoke of how they feel when thay see mommy hugging another guy. This guy is W's first sons dad. My children now say they don't like this guy anymore,,,

I'm really trying to avoid any slandering of my W.

Again, what suggestions do you have, with a PPO served?

Thanks

I'am a STANDER!!!
http://www.rejoiceministries.org

Stephen,

Just wanted to let you know I saw this. I have appts and commitments all day and probably won't get to hang out at MB until tomorrow or possibly even Monday. Do check back or bump if it falls too far to remind me.

How long have you been married? How many kids? And what are the dynamics of the family.... kids are biological chilren of whom?

What kinds of things has she complained about over the years? And what steps have you taken so far?

PPO ? Permanent Protection Order?? Not a term I've heard in the states I'm familiar with.

C

<small>[ August 14, 2003, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

We have been married for five years. Our children are hers, his, and ours. Total of six.
In Nov. W started saying i was pushing her,,,in Feb. she moved out. March she files for D and the PPO. Personal Protection Order. Also known as a RO, restraining order. I belive this was served in hopes that i didn't find out about the OP. To this day she denies any type of an A. He has sent her flowers, phoned her,,, later, he was running around saying he loved my W.
One thing my W is still upset with me for, four years ago while i visited her at her work, i went to kiss her, nothing forbehind doors, but it was going to be a little passionate kiss, yes with tongue. After she expressed how *wrong* that was, i felt rejected. Months later we were discussing this, and i stated how it felt as though she was involved in an affair, (i didn't say she was, it was just feeling like this)
She also has been upset with me, saying i never listen to her. The crazy thing is, whenever she would leave notes, or verbal discussion, i truly thought i was doing ok.
About a year ago, as usual she came in from work, woke me, and shared her evening. I asked if that maybe one day she could come home to me, and us?
I worked first shift, she worked second. Anyhow, about a month later, i noticed that she stopped waking me, i asked why, Her reply was that i told her not to, if she's going to talk about her job. Well, her job is a part of her, i just wanted sometime *us.*

The day she left, she stated she spent four years trying to get rid of me,,,,

When she left, i had our children. A month later she had an ex-parte order, giving her temp. custody. In June, Friend of the Court granted custody back to me. A few days ago W was here, we were discussing things. One thing she said was something about coming back,, she aded that i needed to do something with my 12YS. WHom she's convinced is a bad kid. He has lied a lot, and has stolen. Months ago she wanted me and my 12YS to move out, if there was any chance of saving our marriage. We're still here.
My wife protested the courts decision, and the court date was to be on our wedding annivesary. She spoke of how she was surprised i hadven't changed it. Anyhow, on the court date, she called and cancelled. She emailed me and it contained a few misleading sentences. Ok, lies. She wants me to agree with some sort of joint physical custody. Also, while she was here, she spoke of how she was the happiest when she worked part time that she also missed her old job. So, i said come home, lets get your day care going, and work part time. Her reply was i still don't have the bathroom done. AS much as i want to, i struggle to trust much from her anynore.

My 14 YD, my W step daughter, went for the week-end. When they came home, my 14 YD and my two children with my W, started talking about their week-end. My W was playing our wedding son, while they were in the car. Her children as well as my W apparently still refer to me as dad.
also my childern were talking about the other guy. Now, this other guy as this time, is my W's first sons dad. My two children with my W, they become upset, and start crying when they're talking about seeing mommy and him hug.
My 14 D also said she noticed how my W still defends me. That my W also speaks negative about this OP. Yet, over the week-end, this OP came and picked everybody up for a B-day party.

When my W and myself was talking recently, she asked why i haven't came up with any agreement, regards to joint physical custody. My reply was how i'm scared of her. Scared of the possibility of her putting me in jail, for breaking the PPO. We now can communicate only regards to the children. Although this has been broken time after time from both of us. Anyhow, her comment was that i really should be worried about the ones that are all mushy and full of i love you.
(For several months she was bothered by me, she said i never said the words *i love you*)
After she said this, i replieed that i wanted to reassure her, that i did love her. Again, this day she said i never used those three words enough. So, i asked her about all of my actions, and i spelled some of them out. Explained also my intentions were, becauys ei loved her.

In any of my emails that i have spoken anything what-so-ever about her and I, or us,. She never replys back. When we are together, she will always talk about how i did this and or that wrong. To this day, she is convinced that i was, and am a big flirt!! Some of the things we have done together, she now says how she hated them,,,

A few times now i have heard from her that i'm trying to force her to come back. I reassure her, this i can't and won't do. That has to be her decision. Some times i wonder, if maybe i should send her an agreement, that any joint custody, will be as husband and wife, under the same roof.

I also informed her, that htere are classes available for us,,, that i have been learning so much, about his and her needs,,, wishing that i could share all of it to and with her,,,
and that it is never too late!!!

(PPO, at first was zero communication, and no where within, i think 100 yards? My W said that when i come to any type of custody agreement, she would have her lawyer file and drop the PPO.

Maybe i already lost my wiofe, and my marriage, i sure do a lot of praying, that one day she will return to our marriage.

Thank you,,

*What God has joined together, let no man seperate* Matt. 19:5

Stephan.... sorry I spelled your name wrong last time....

We have been married for five years. Our children are hers, his, and ours. Total of six.

Ahhhh yes, aren't step families fun? We have 7. Four live at home. Difficult, very difficult.


In Nov. W started saying i was pushing her,,,in Feb. she moved out. March she files for D and the PPO. Personal Protection Order. Also known as a RO, restraining order. I belive this was served in hopes that i didn't find out about the OP.

What did she have in the PPO as evidence? And yes, it's possible it was a way to keep you from finding out about an A.

To this day she denies any type of an A. He has sent her flowers, phoned her,,, later, he was running around saying he loved my W.

So this is the father of her son? Were they married? How did it end? How long ago? Were you part of the break up?

One thing my W is still upset with me for, four years ago while i visited her at her work, i went to kiss her, nothing forbehind doors, but it was going to be a little passionate kiss, yes with tongue. After she expressed how *wrong* that was, i felt rejected.

Ok, rejection is a normal feeling. And valid. At the same time you can't demand that she kiss you if she's uncomfortable with it. If it doesn't work for BOTH of you, it doesn't happen. Even if you feel rejection.

Months later we were discussing this, and i stated how it felt as though she was involved in an affair, (i didn't say she was, it was just feeling like this)

So.... she not wanting to kiss you at work made you suspicious?

She also has been upset with me, saying i never listen to her. The crazy thing is, whenever she would leave notes, or verbal discussion, i truly thought i was doing ok.

Well this is typical. It's valuable information about what she needs in the marriage and where you weren't meeting her needs. None of us likes to hear that we're not doing a wonderful job, but if we are to be able to make the kinds of adjustments needed then we have to not only hear it, but solicit this kind of information and then act on it.

I worked first shift, she worked second.

This is a big problem area. I know a lot of couples fall into this mistake thinking it will save on daycare and other issues.... but it spells disaster for marriages. Couples need to spend a MINIMUM of 15 hours a week without friends and family giving each other their undivided attention and meeting the needs of Intimate Conversation, Affection, Recreational Companionship and Sexual Fulfillment. That's pretty hard to do when you work separate shifts.

Anyhow, about a month later, i noticed that she stopped waking me, i asked why, Her reply was that i told her not to, if she's going to talk about her job. Well, her job is a part of her, i just wanted sometime *us.*

Mmmmm..... yes.... but you need both. What she's telling you is that she needs to talk about her day, her life and what she experiences. And of course there needs to be balance where you discuss other things as well. Have you read any of Harleyl's work? His Needs Her Needs and Surviving an Affair are must reads right now.

One thing she said was something about coming back,, she aded that i needed to do something with my 12YS. WHom she's convinced is a bad kid. He has lied a lot, and has stolen. Months ago she wanted me and my 12YS to move out, if there was any chance of saving our marriage. We're still here.

See this is where step families are so hard. If your marriage is going to succeed, then you need to put your wife's feelings and concerns as number one in your life. And she needs to be willing to negotiate with you about the children.

It sounds like this has been a sore spot for a long time. And frankly, most step parents would have problems with a child who is in trouble. I'm sure he is a good kid, but it is much harder for non biological parents to be willing to make the sacrifices necessary in raising kids. That puts you both in a difficult place .... one that requires you work extra hard at making all decisions regarding your children (all of them) in a way that takes each other's feelings into account.

So, i said come home, lets get your day care going, and work part time. Her reply was i still don't have the bathroom done. AS much as i want to, i struggle to trust much from her anynore.

I wonder if she isn't just really ambivalent? It could be that she wants to have the marriage but that there are things that she's unhappy about and she doesn't want to come home and have nothing change? This is a big deal for women.

Now, this other guy as this time, is my W's first sons dad. My two children with my W, they become upset, and start crying when they're talking about seeing mommy and him hug.

You know..... it sounds like she might have some remorse about that R and is just stuck. In a bad place. I think she wants her marriage with you to work, but it's been pretty conflict laden and now she's revisiting her old R.... the whole grass is greener thing....

Poor thing... she sounds really confused.

Ok, you need a good Plan A to entice her to reconsider the marriage and to end contact with this guy.

And you really really need to steep yourself in the concepts. You need to not only know this stuff forwards and backwards but you need a good strong plan on how you are going to implement it.

Go to the bookstore link and order His Needs Her Needs, Love Busters and Surviving an Affair. Read them..... this is far more valuable than time on the boards.... it's real concepts not just an interpretation.

When you have them orderred let's talk about some baby steps you can start to take right away. You need to have a good grasp of Harley's stuff for me to help you with this here.

C

Hi cerri!!
Yesterday i seen my W, we started talking about joint custody, she wants me to agree with her for joint custody. I reassured her there is no part of me for a divorce, I was then informed that custody and D are two seperate issues. My reply was maybe so, but when i hear custody, the big ugly picture painted is all about D. So, i gave a few small options, saying that we should reconcile, that this is our marriage.
I also informed her what our children have been saying, and how they feel when they say they have seen their mommy hug (name) (her first sons dad)
She stated they are not dating. How people around ask if he is her boyfriend, she says she tells all that he is her sons dad, and that she has a computer and a dog, she doesn't need a boyfriend. So i said you also have a husband.
I asked her about her kissing (name), she said it was about (name) disciplining son, after, (name) kissed him on top of his head, then went to the rest of the children, then to my W. I said well none of it matters. When i went to leave, i simply acted like i didn't care, said bye w/o looking at her, and left.
Later in the day she phoned asking me more questions. One she was asking was why i was implying, and or accusing her of dating (name). I reassured her all i was doing was asking questions,, eventual;ly i asked was that my intention to accuse or imply. AFter which she acted as though she finally accepted my answer. Telling me how the neighbors heard what i said,,,so i apologized to her, adding that i didn't notice anybody around before i started talking. She aslo asked what would people think?
We was back on the subject of getting back together. I suggested classes, and a counselor. She asked how, you work first, i work second. So, my reply was thats ok, cuz it trruly can be done w/o, all it reguires is an open mind. Also there are on line classes avail.
I was informed how her mom no longer wants to live alone, so i threw a few options there. One was we could move into a bigger house, she could move in with us. At one time while we were talking she called me honey, i shared how i liked hearing that, but for now i'll take it as a slip. (not knowing if it was really meant for me)
SHe asked if i would drop the custody issue, so i agreed. Only if we were going to work on our marriage. (She has always been upset for having to pay support) My comment was W, you are their mother, and our children need each of their parent in their daily lifes. As husband and wife, living together.
Some time during our conversation, i was asked if i have recieved the court papers yet. I asked what papers, what am i being served with now? If this is how you want it W, , than i guess we'll have it out in court,,,She stated that they were the new court date from when she cancelled our date on Aug. 1st.
Eventually i stated W, we are husband and wife, i'm going to ask you to start honoring and accepting pur marriage. Stating that i truly did not want to ask her that, that i felt it should have been her decision. ( i have been accused of trying to force her back)
At one time W said she just started a new job, and all she wants to do is focus on that, and she had to go to get ready for work. So, i asked if i could leave her with one last thought, to think about everything, then said*its never too late* have a good eve at work, bye.

It appeared that basically at times she was interested, yet she would come up with an excuse with every suggestion.

She aslo asked what would i do with my 12 Y S, if i wuld be willing to move him to his mothers. I informed her this is something i'm against, i do not want any of our children thinking or feeling that i have turned my back on them. My son yells at my W a lot, and lies to her. He also lies to me, more than the norm. He has a lot of anger,,

Later in the day i spoke with my son, asked how he would think and feel about W coming back, his first response was, with eyes wide open WOW!!!
Moments later he stated he did not like that. Saying he didn't want her verbal abuse anynore, that he didn't like that. He spoke of how W used to be,,, saying he knows she loves him, wants him to do better, but said he knows she does not like him. Eventually both of my children suggested they would move to their mothers, for awhile, til the marriage was saved, or fixed. Well, i know this is not ever night,,,,,,,

I went to the court house yesterday, picked up the papers to protest the PPO, actually to have it terminated. What do you think about this? I really don't want to continue to jeapordize any more than i already have,,,

<small>[ August 17, 2003, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Stephan ]</small>

The only evidence possible for PPO, was when i phoned her. I had noticed when i would return her caslls, even when i ahd phoned her on my own for either to give her requested money, or to let her know the children wanted to see her. I would hear *i'm busy, call me back in five minutes.* One time i called six times, after the five, before she answered. So i think maybe she has someone sitting there, counting. The reason for six times, was due to the fact she is only in that office for a short while, and never knows when she is leaving,,,other than that, it was filled with false allegations. One day while we were talking about this, she was telling me how it felt like it. This was referring to me hiding behind buildings. So i said come on W, i have children at home. One day after dropping my older to off ast a school function, i noticed my W was in front of me, so i turned the opposite direction, so she wouldn't think i was following her. Went around the blocks, and ended up right back behind her. So when i came up on the grocery store, i turned my blinker on way to early, hoping she would notice i was turning, again hoping she wouldn't think i was following her.

Granted, i could be wrong, but i truly think it was so i wouldn't find out about the OP. The Op who sent her flowers, this is the first guy, apparently from work.
The guy my children speak of hugging mommy, is now a different guy, this one is her first sons dad. No, they were never married, and they broke up only after about six months i think it was. No, i wasn't a part of the break up. From what i ahve learned after W left, this guy left her, and he left scared. To date, this is the only guy who has ever left my wife. All the others, my W has left them. In her first marriage, she left him after ten months. Involved with another guy. I read from her writing in a journal, that if her husband could only see her now, acting like a whore, slut, and a tramp.

Kissing, actually i didn't demand. I accepted how she felt, so i thought i did. It just was never left where it belonged. This would be used against me, time after time. After this attempt, when ever i would visit her, and start to leave, she would pucker up, so i eventually became confused!? Yes, i agree, there is a place for a cretain kiss, but when i attempted to kiss her the way i did, there was nobody else there. Yes, we were outside,,, but again, it wasn't going to be one for behind doors.
When i shared with her the children and myself wanted to bring supper to her while she was at work. This was a few months later, well this *kiss* came back up. It was used against me. This supper act was also refused, with me hearing that the only purpose was to check up on her. This really was not ever in my chain if thoughts.
Weeks later, i shared with her how often on my way home from work, i would go the long was around, in hopes to get even a glimpse of my W. Or better yet, that we could steal a moment, and pull over,,, again, i was accused of checking up on her, i'm sure this kiss came up again.

Eventually yes, in a way i became suspicious. I had noticed that when i was at her work, at the office, this guy no longer spoke to me, and how he avoided eye contact. I shared this with my wife, asking if maybe she knew why. Some time later, the intimate moments between us were becoming less and less. One day i started t6alking to my W, saying i don't mean to accuse you, or imply anythin, but its almost as if your involved in an affair. Apparently i approached this wrong. This was blown out of proportion(sp)

As much as i really want and need to, right now i simply can not order anything. I was fired months ago. I had to visit churches recently to avoid being evicted. And yes, i have read a lot about needs, and then some. I don't understand some of what i read,, but i have been reading, and reading alot.

She has said often *steve, you said you would change, and you haven't yet.*
The last time i heard this from her, i shared some of the changes with her, and let her know they are permanent. Added that i will still make mistakes, but that none was, or ever would be intentional. I have never intentionaly hurt you W, hurting you, is hurting me, resulting in hurting *us.*

Again. its going to be awhile 'til i can order anything,,, i also think i'm ready, or needing
G I A N T steps, instead of baby steps,, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ August 24, 2003, 03:48 AM: Message edited by: Stephan ]</small>

cerri, i spoke to my W again yesterday. The first thing i said to her was * WOW! you look great today!* She said thanks. We were on the phone together. just trying to be somewhty silly
I mentioned a few more ideas,,, mentioned to her that i made arrangement for my 12 Y S to stay at his moms for awhile. My W asked me about why my sister doesn't want us back together,,, so i answered her, adding that it really shouldn't matter, cuz its us, who are building a relationship, living together. Anyhow her comment was *then it will never work.*
We spoke for maybe 30 minutes again. I heard a few more times that i'm still not listening to her. ???????
When we were ending our conversation, i said it was nice talking to you,,,

Today i decided to take our children so they could see her for awhile. I was going to go visit a friend, let the children spend time with mom. Well, mom wasn't there. Her van was gone, her moms car was gone. The only vehicle there, was her first sons dads car.
I went to leave a note on the door, her mom was home, and told me that W was at work. I don't know what to think!? Why was his car there, yet W's van gone, also moms car. And both of her first two children were gone as well. So, i was some what crushed. Maybe i should have not gone there, the surprise was on me.
Often times its like she's withdrawn
Do you still think plan A is my option?
From all of her, at least twelve relationships she been in, she has always became involved with another, so she can leave the other.
One time she was so crushed, and hated men, so she cut her hair off, died the stubs orange, and moved to another state.
Ine thing i remembered just now, whe we first started dating, she shared with me *all* of her ideas, and intentions to committ suicide!? She handed me a notebook,,,we may have been married when she handed this to me. I remember thinkng that maybe she was like this, only cuz she never found one who really, truly cared. Real soon after being together,
This is my wife, and i remember God says he hates divorce. My vows were,, for better for worse, thru sickness and in health, til death do us part,,, God also tells us let no man seperate what he has joined together.
Now i'm also wondering, and concerned. My wife has made several choices for me! God also says that let no wife leave her husband,,, shall not re-marry.
Looks like i shall be a single man now!!! Or, purposely sin!!??
I was informed as she was leaving, that the last four years was spent trying to get rid of my sick, and stupid a##!! She also added, *don't you want me to be happy*?
,,, last summer she wanted me to send my children to their moms, who lives with a guy. She doesn't work. My reply was that my children are my responsibility, not the guy who their mother lives with. I was then asked *what, you would pick your children over me?* In some ways yes,, after that again i heard *your blanking sick, you need help!!! Was i wrong for that???
I was told often how sick and messed up i was. Quite awhile ago, i was informed how i always reject her, this really confused me. I have always displayed affection,(flowers, cards, notes,,,) always had her coffee made, brought her cups in bed, with her one little drop of cold water added. No mater what, i tried to fill her requests. Except for ALL the repairs, on the house, along with the house chores. When i was home, i had all six children,,,i gave a lot. There was only one of me,,

Please, what major suggestions do you have for me?

Thank you

*adultry is grounds for forgiveness rather than divorce* John 8:11

<small>[ August 19, 2003, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: Stephan ]</small>

cerri,,
I think my W is more withdrawn, other than anything else???
I had to call her yesterday, stated my business, then said i needed to go, that i didn't want to bother her. She wanted to talk, yes it was all small talk. But it was talk. After i hung up, i realized once again i failed!!! I didn't say anything so as she knew i was listening to her, therefore i'm sure there was no gain,, I failed again to fill her needs, of communication, or any EN>
Any suggestions for this *selfish* husband?

<small>[ August 19, 2003, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: Stephan ]</small>

Stephan,

Ok, so what's up with the PPO? Can you get it rescinded? Let me know how that goes.

Your children vs. your wife. She needs to know that her feelings and concerns come first, even over that of your children. BUT that you will not jeopardize their safety or the health. So you are willing to negotiate any conflict you have about the kids and that the solution will need to be one that takes both her feelings and your need to protect them into account.

Conversation. When she says you don't listen, I would guess that what she means is that you don't respond in way that shows interest and engagement. Be curious about the things she talks about, ask questions, explore, dig deeper, get her thoughts on whatever it is and be willing to risk giving your own.

Plan A... yeah, I think so, as long as she is willing to talk to you, and it seems that she is.

The other men. I wouldn't accuse her. That's not what confrontation is about. Instead tell her what you know and how you know it. (The kids said you hugged/kissed so and so) And then tell her how you feel. Afraid, hurt, sad.... I posted the list of feeling words last night, take a look and print it out. That's all you need to say about it. If she gets defensive tell her you're not accusing her of anything but that you want her to know what you heard and how you feel.

And then I would ask her what it would take to consider dropping all court action and coming home. Just ask and then listen. No matter what she says, all you do is thank her for her input, and then let me know.

C

CERRI!!!
i was becoming worried!!! yes a part of me is serious with that.

I'm not sure what i can do with PPO. I went and filled out the protest papers again. I have been contemplating rather or not to go ahead and have this sent to her or not. I have to have it as registered mail. I was reluctant to do anything cuz i didn't want to add another nail, or add any flames,, I do know when i was served, i had 14 days to protest. I ended up being too late. So therefore, i'm not sure. When i asked the courts they said they think i could stil get before the judge. So,,

Last week i shared with her what the children had been saying,, i asked her questions is all. She called me later stating i did accuse her, so i apologized for leaving that impression, asking her if she thought that that was my true intentions. Then she finally accepted my reply.
Anyhow she also told me that she told this OP(her first sons dad) to stay away.
Two days ago my 5 year daughter told her mommy she was mad at her for seeing her hug/kiss OP. W asked her why she was lieing, and saying this stuff. When i asked W if daughter has seen this, W's reply was i don't know when she would have. Adding that she has no reason to hug/kiss him. Also mentioned that that would be sick and disgusting.

Apparently my communication methods are really not quite right. Somehow i manage to leave impressions which is the furthest from my mind. Do you understand? Af for accusing, i never even accuse any of the children of anything, that i can give myself credit for. I do not accuse anybody of anything. Its just with my wife i leave that impression,,,

I seen your list of words last night, and i already copied them. I have alreadt been using them, so as to change a few words that are stuck in my vocabulary. Thank you!!!

I already know what she will say referring to dropping the court action or PPO. SHe says to agree to joint custody, and then and only then will she even consider about saving the marriage. SHe aslo tells me that if and when i do agree to joint custody, she wil have her lawyer file to dismiss the PPO. One of her other ultimatums is to have 12 year old son move out.

The other day she was on her way to pick up our children, so i stated i would not be here when she came, due to the fact that i loved her, and i realize i struggle, and i also continue to push her. Her reply was she wanted me here so when she spoke to our three year old son, i could be here as well. Our son most the time does not want to go with her. Yesterday i emailed her informing her that i was going out of town on Sunday, that i wouldn't be here when she brought our children home, here is her reply, in fact, this is her complete email.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why don't you let me know what's going on for sure on Sunday. I feel that when I return (children) I should be returning them to an adult.
Maybe we can figure out our schedules and work something out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and this is my email origanlly to her,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hello you beautiful person !!!

i have an appointment this afternoon at 3p.m.. This is to sign, register (children)
up in the Head Start program.
I need to know if this is ok with you? How do you feel about this arrangement?

I also would like to know your thoughts, *feelings* and opinions as well.
Do you have any concerns? Do you have any other ideas? How do you feel?

I do not have all the answers yet, when i have more, i would be more than happy to pass them on,,

I know that it is possible that Vee can go there for awhile after her regular school hours. They also have the means to arrange for any other therapy that (5 Ydaughter)
may still require, occupational, speech, physical.

Again, any and all of your feelings, thoughts ideas and opinions are important to me,,,

P.S. I have some plans for Sunday, not sure when i'll be back. Either way, (my 14 Daughter)
will be there. So just in case i'm not there, it'll be ok to still drop (children) off
TTFN :-) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyhow, i emailed her today saying i'd ask my mom to come over at 6p.m.

I'm not sure if i have mentioned this in here or not. On Aug 1 there was suppose to be a court date. This was her protesting the courts decision granting me the custody. She called and canceled, or her attorney probably did. Anyhow it was cancelled. She tell sme its adjourned, but the courts tell me its cancelled with no furtehr messages. When she emailed me telling me this, she also had a few lies in here email. So far
i have no acted on them in any way.
Aug 1 is our annivesary. Before she cancelled, she was here maybe a week prior, saying shes surprised i didn't cancel Because it is on our annivesary.

Cerri,, Thank You!!!!

Days ago i ordered Divorce Remedy. It should be here in a few days. Right now cerri, i have zero income, im on a state grant, and the amount coming in, does not even come close to the amount going out. I ordered this book before you requested ordering, sorry.

W im'ed me last night. From me saying i'm going out if town, she thinks i have a girlfriend.
Now she's acting friendly. When she said *you have a girl* my reply was yeppers, actually referring to my W. No Q's about the girl, just kept im'ing.

<small>[ August 25, 2003, 05:42 PM: Message edited by: Stephan ]</small>

cerri,
My W was here today. Thing were going great!
She even brought her first two children here.First time since she has left.
She brought daughter school clothes, she showed those. As she was holding up one paticular dress, i shared with her how one that color and style would look so great on her. I even called her sweetheart. I reminded her of my favorite color on her. She added that actually the wine colors was my favorite colors on her.
We were talking and getting along.

I asked her about a time she went to a bar with a female co-worker. Which i just found out about a few days ago, from this co-worker. Apparently W was sitting there drinking her pepsi, acting extremely nervous. When friend asked why, W stated that i was very controlling,,, that i wanted her to stay at home. Made sure that i would leave her home with no money. So iasked W about this. This may have been the begining point when the defense began. I attempted to reassure her that is not the kind operson i'am. I apologized for leaving that kind of n impression.

Maybe an hour later, she was in the house, seen my court papers regards to the PPO, she came out as if scolding me saying that i'm nothing but a liar.You lied to me once again, saying how i had to have control of everything, that i was nothing but a liar and a manipulator. I eventually raised my voice, not actually yelling, but no longer Mr Calm. She said something, all i remember now was my reply, which was I'am human, it hurt that i was accused of lieing. It was frustrating, therefore (explained) when one is frustrated, voice becomes raised. Does not mean i'm a monster, if one is excited, again their voice is raised. We harshed it our for maybe 5 minutes. Then settled down. I explained to her why i felt i was attacked by her accusation. *automatic thoughts* That it hurt. Yes, with me taking all blame. She stayed maybe twenty minutes after this.

Anyhow, i eventually asked her what she needed me to do in regards to us working on our marriage. She said i needed to (1) act like i give a $hit.(2)compromise.(3) And to send her an agreement of joint custody, a proposal to an agreement.
I mentioned about working and striving for the same thing, she said this is a price tag. So i stated yes and no, then spoke about the Policy of a joint agreement. She stated Its not right, thats a price tag.
The three things she needs from me, (1) give a $hit, (2)compromise, (3)and to send her the proposal. Either that or three was to learn how to listen to her. I'm reluctant to ask her questions. Quite often when she asks me a question, oftne i answer with a question. She informs me that you do not answer a question with a question. Therefore, i often fail to ask questions, even at times when i should.

I asked about the PPO, she said that they all could be resolved of at the same time.
While she was still here, i asked her about the talk we had weeks ago, about working on getting back together. Again, she stated how i said i would do something about my son, and i see he's still here. (ultimatum)
With compromising, i mentioned i had no problem with this, as long as i knew we were again, working on the same goal. Reminding her that i want no part of this divorce.

She explained compromising to me with this,, when one says they want a blue plate, the other says they want a yellow plate, they begin to negotiate, and they may end up with,,,can't remember how she finished. But i said i know how i would want it, i would want it together, blue and yellow.

At one tine My rely was i didnt like the way this sounds, it sounds as if im going to be agreeing to a divorce. My w stated that a divorce and custody are two seperate things, maybe so, but they go hand in hand. Am i really this knieve?

We were back on the subject of us. At one time she made the comment that she was commited to her job for six months. SHe signed an agreement with them.
At this time i shared with her what i heard the first time she said this: first i assured her im not accusing, or implyimg,, nut i heard that maybe this job was more important than any of her children, and her family.
She again asked what would we do about her mom. I again said we could get a bigger house.

She also mentioned something about being here.
Then she informed me our lease is up in December!!! Asked what am *I* going to do then?

I just called her, gave her a sincere apology, for my angry outburst. We ended up talking for quite some time again. I opened up to her, gave her a part of my deepest thoughts i never have before.
Cerri, when i first started dating my W, she shared with me a lot of talk about how she thought about suicide. Shared with me several different plans. Later on, she handed me a notebook, filled with a lot more talk about suicide. Here is my exact first thought. This was seven years ago. I thought that my God, here is a beautiful person, who apparently just has not found her *Mr. Right.* That i would basically fill her with love,,,after i was done sharing this, she asked *well then why didn't you?* I stated because i never learned how, until recently. I then went into again some of MB's principals. Adding *its never too late* Even when one hates and or resents. Or is withdrawn.
Explained that any relationship requires 15 hours,( i also reminded her that we worked opposite shifts, that we no longer were allowing) and the importance of one needs being met and filled,,,,

For quite awhile i have been accused of being abusive. You know cerri, when she first started saying this, i really thought this lady has become wacko!!! I used to say she was refocusing. Not that i know what refocusing could be, i just knew this was something. Eventually i began calling it, projection. I know call it the simple relationship saga!!! Only its not so simple.

We again started talking about getting back together,,, if i send her a proposal, and i'm willing to compromise with her, then, well, i'm still not sure. She said i have to show her these things first. She also suggested that i ask a counselor about compromise. So as I could get a better understanding.

I shared with her again, what i have learned here at MB. We talked about her personal needs,,,i went into some details as to the hows and whys. I started talking about the order of her personal needs. Out of the four i mentioned, i was right with *one.* Her number one is communication. The others i mentioned were toward the bottom. But she offered no further info,,
we were back on the subject of her thinking im controlling, and manipulating. That she thinks i have to be the one who has the control.

I im'ed her last night, we talked for maybe 20minutes. At which time, i becane Mr creep.
We ended on a good note though.
I asked her about a descrephancy in one of her emails. Notice what word i opted to use??
Yes, i feel as though my W lied to me, but i didnt use that word. Anyhow, her comment was *thats what she told me(lady from her lawyers office) why do you suppose she said that?*
I called the courts, gave no personal info. In W's email i was informed the court called her attorney, cuz i called the court. (first of all, courts don't work like that) W also said court date was adjourned. I called the courts back days later, gave personal info, court date was canceleed, w/no further info, or reschedule date.

Today, we talked on the phone for about an hour,, pretty much small talk, and i managed to throw in at times comments like i worry about her,,, some talk was about us, i asked her if she remembered when we used to give each other a one ringer with the phone for a little thinking of you message. She said yes. I told her i missed that silly little thing,,,
Ending the conversation, i stated it was a pleasure talking with her.

45 minutes later we were back in the phone, for maybe 15 minutes. These two times she called to talk to our daughter about her first day at school.

I emailed her 6 links to certain articles from MB. One which was about abuse.

does it sound as maybe there is *some* hope?

Today my 5 year old daughter told me that (nam,e) called while she was at her moms. But him hanged up noone answered. I asked her how she knew this was (name) cuz i heart grandma say to mom that was (name)
Name again is my W's first sons dad.

This is why i spoke about our one ringer.

<small>[ August 25, 2003, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: Stephan ]</small>

cerri, in Jan. my wife started accusing me of being abusive.
Yesterday while talking with her, i asked her about this. She said she didn't remember.
I explained to her how it hurt. I went on, informed her that ok, apparently there must be some truth into this. Somehow i'm managing to leave my W this impression. So i accepted that, started searching info in this subject. and quick!
I asked her if she and (name) were dating. Her reply was *i need a boyfriend like i need a hole in my head.*
I also asked if they were planning on getting back together.her reply, *why, i have a computer and a dog.*
So i added and a husband.

where are the rails?

<small>[ August 26, 2003, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Stephan ]</small>

cerri, i quit. i found out today we will be divorced some time in Sept.
Besides, this roller coaster has begun again,,,
thank you though,,

<small>[ August 27, 2003, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Stephan ]</small>

Dear Stephan,

I see that you have further posts under Plan A and Plan B.

I had given a few replies as you sorted through the possible realities of your wife's unusual behavior. My deeper sympathy as you have discovered that an OM is a key player, in the person of the father of your wife's first son.

Certaily I can understand the concept of giving up, and resigning your self to a divorce.

Not to hold out false hope, but rather to describe a vision for an alternative path, I modify some of my earlier speculations and proposals.

I may have been wrong that your wife has a tendency to elaborately fabricate the truth. It is possible that she is fabricating lies to throw you off the trail of her adultery. This would mean that her tone level is higher that 1.1, Covert Hostility, which would be nice (Science of Survival by L. Ron Hubbard $55.00).

Previously I suggested that your power in the marriage was weak. I suggested some alternatives to lift the PPO, and others have made suggestions also. Since you have been under stress, you might refresh your recollection of my suggestions on Divorce timing and the PPO. There was one post to which you never replied or acknowledged under Negotiating in Marriage.

Increasing your power in the community, to command respect from the Other Man, is a new suggestion from me. If you review the suggestions I made for increasing your power in the marriage, all should apply, but more should be added, to incude your power in the community. I dicussed power in the community with madcom_mike, 24424, I DON'T UNDERSTAND, under Resolving Conflict on 8-26-03.

Please have the confidence to know that you are probably a good person, and from what you have described, your wife has put you through the wringer. So be kind to yourself, because this experience will have been draining upon you.

God Bless,

Quipper,
Married 28 years and still struggling

<small>[ August 28, 2003, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Quipper, (i think i may have vented in this post)
i *feel* as though i have been thru the wringer, drug around, stomped on, kicked, and than stomped on, for some more measurements. AT times its like why and how do i continue to allow!? I had an appointment with a counselor the other day,, i really thought i had most of this behind me,,, apparently i was WRONG!!!

The day my wif left here, her reply was, *I spent four years trying to get rid of your sick stupid F______ a$$!!! This actually had a lot of answers within itself,,,

For the last month we have been discussing chances/terms of getting back together. Yet, there will still one more, what, ultimatum, excuse, or whatever!!! Talk anout getting back together, yet i'm informed she hasn't broke the PPO, but i have. Why is this necassary to point out?
She informs me she wants me to agree to and with her having joint custody, before she comes back, saying this way i will show her i'm not a controlling person. What confuses me with this, is who cares about custody, if mother and father are together!? Its suppose to be a *together* thing, yes, even right now, i agree.

I know my wife is now up to something, probably going to try to have me arrested, she informed me two days ago, how i have broke the PPO, that she hasn't.
When she called yesterday, she did not talk to me,, and for the last several phone calls, we have been talking for almost an hour each time.
Yes, I *FEEL* as though i'am being lied to, intentionaly mislead, and manipulated.

My W even stated, to our 5 Y D that she was lieing,, its so funny, because W's first two children, have said they seen the same thing. Its juist so AMAZING how a *wife* can allow herself to become so vindictave!? Its as though she's a lethal weapon. Mrs. Vindictive. When a wife is upset, or has her war paint on,,, LOOK OUT!!!!! RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN!!!!!

I spoke with the courts today, sought info regarding her breaking PPO,, she can only be considered breaking it, if she like misleads me.
I have a court date Sept. 12,,, and i'm already SCARED, and nervous. This lady is good,,

When i first met my wife, she spoke about suicide,, after we were married, she gave me a notebook, filled with thoughts, plots, of how she would kill herself. I remember thinking that she just never found one who really cared.

Years ago, she was Po'ed at men, she pretty much cut all her hair off, dyed it orange,, moved to another state,, so she says anyhow,, i don't know what to think and or believe,,,

One thing i do know, is now i have a house full of children, that has been, and is, effected by her *games* in one way or another, while she can only think about *herself,* i sure hope she is enjoying, and it sure better be worth it???

Thanks,
steven

<small>[ August 29, 2003, 04:46 AM: Message edited by: Stephan ]</small>

Dear Steven,

Good Luck Friday, Sept 12. Is there anyway to get a lawyer for that day? Is the only issue the divorce? Her lawyer should also be present.

It is good to vent here. In the court, you could lose everything. I don't recall your mentioning your state. You might disclose that in a post, as a member of your state's Bar, or even a paralegal, may have more specific ideas for you.

The best plan for her lawyer and your wife would be to needle you in court so that you lose it, and they get everyting.

The phrase you might want to keep in mind, for surprises, is "Well your honor,this is a Surprise, I request a continuaance in order to prepare for this unexpected issue."

There is also usually a time period after a decision is verbally made in court, for you to file a Motion for Reconsideration. So if you feel like everything is going against you in court, that is not the final word. It will probalby be better to avoid making a fool of your self, or otherwise losing your credibility with the judge, so that you can go back in before him again, in a few days or weeks, and explain your side a second time.

Best wishes,

Quipper
Married 28 years and still struggling

<small>[ August 29, 2003, 05:50 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Dang Quipper, you make it sound as if i'm going to loose my cool. Yes i've become upset woth my wife before, nothing that i have lost my cool about. The majority of the time, especially when it was as if i was being attacked, yes its upsetting.

Is it truly possible that one is expected to, or one can even maintain calm, cool and collect at all times? Really, is this possible? I'am being totally serious,,,

With the court date,, maybe as usual i was incomplete in my own words. The Sept.12 court date is for me protesting this PPO.

I'am in The Great Lakes State,, Michigan.

A lawyer, actually, I have given up on this!!! I even called a few more recently, asking for pro-bono, still to no avail.

I'm really not going to lose it, i don't quite understand why i have, or allow myself to become bothered by my W. I know she has never accepted anything i have ever said. At times i allowed it to hurt, from or after i was accused,,, when a person feels sad, isn't it normal to sound sad? When one is frustrated, how should one handle this??? Do you understand?
I always thought it was normal,,to sound the way one feels??? When i'm excited, i have more than the norm of volume.

I really DO NOT want a divorce, although i know this choice has been made for me,,

Am i the only one who after several repeats to the children, raises their voice? Thats all i have done. Each and every time i'm on the phone with my W, i hear her scold, with a raised voice. I'm not going to loose my cool. Unless, raising a voice is loosing ones cool, is it?

Thanks for the tips,,,

Stephan

I wanted to add, for the last few weeks all the talk about us, as well as us getting back together. Now these last two days, its as if I was being mislead, and manipulated, it has been very frustrating,, when i seen my W today, it was just bothersome,

Dear Steven,

With children under 12, time outs can be effective. Also counting to 3, as you give the instruction. Please put your teddy bear away, 1. Please put your teddy gear away two. Please put your teddy bear away 3. Time out. Let's go sit in your room for a few minutes. And away we go.

The idea of interrupting, even for a short time, a matter of minutes, gives the 1, 2, 3, a force of meaning to a child.

What hapened to her attorney saying you are going to have to pay him $500.00 if you try to lift the PPO?

Phrases for the judge come to mind, I have tried to abide by the terms of the PPO. The terms of the PPO prevent me from serously trying to approach my wife for purposes of reconciliation. I am interested in trying to save the marriage, and the PPO makes that near impossible." Terhe wer times kI wanst to send an E-m,ail, of inspiration, but I stopped myself because of htre PPO.

Some Michigan judges enjoy fly fishing and duck hunting. You might put your statement in those terms. "Trying to reconcile the marriage, with the PO in force, It's like trying to catch a trout with a loaf of bread. It's like trying to go duck hunting at night."

In cross examining your wife, you might use the theory that when she asked for the PPO, the separation was just staring, and that she was naturally unsure of what might happen, and that since your being together every week at the Doctor's office and so on, that Steven has not raised his voice in a threatening manner, so the PPO has been proven unnecessary.

It is a fact, isn't it, that your husband has never severely beaten you causing life threatening injuries, has he?

Isn't it true that your husband has never beaten you or caused you any serious injuries?

Isn't it true that you have never been to a hospital emergency room as a result of being beaten by your husband?

Isn't it true that you have never felt in such danger from your husband as to call the police for protection from a beating?

Isn't it true that after obtaining this PPO, that you continued to reside in the marital abode with your husband for several days, in violation of the PPO?

Isn't it true that your husband has never touched you in a rough or offensive manner?

"Isn't it true that you have never actually felt in danger of a beating or physical injury from hour husband?

Isn't it true that whenever you have informed your husband that you felt he was being abusive, or expressing himself too loudly, that he stopped or altered his manner of commuicating with you?

Isn't it true that on some occasions when you informed your husband that you felt he was being too loud or abusive, that your husband offered to leave the home to let things cool off, and that you yourself asked him not to leave?

Isn't it true that you asked your husband as a general rule not to leave the home even if you were feeling he was being too loud or abusive?

Isn't it true that you trust your husband to stop and discontinue any line of conversation that you consider abusive, or too loud, and that you trust your husband not to harm you, and not to put you in fear of harm?

Isn't it true that any time your husband has come on too fast or too intensely, that as soon as you have let him know that you were uncomfortable, that he backed off immediately?

Isn't it true that this PPO has been mostly adheared to by your husband to not contact you except as relating to doctors and your children?

Isn't it true that from time to tome, since the PPO, that you and your husband have discussed the possibility of reconciling your marriage?

Isn't it true that the PPO, as it stands, would make it difficult for any couple to get back together, including your husband and yourself?

End of Cross

There may need to be some technical rephrasing to fit the facts, but you see the sequence is going from nothing serious, to nothing even minor. First you want to extablish there was nothing major, then if she quibbles obout something minor, you are already on more solid ground.

You might try a nearby law school, and ask a 3rd year law student to accompany you. You might print out these cross examination questions, for a start, and ask a Law Professor if he might have any students who might be interested in participating in such a hearing on a PPO. Some Law prefessors have office hours, or can be reached by phone, E-mail or fax.

Best wishes,

Quipper,
Married 28 years and still struggling.

<small>[ September 01, 2003, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Quipper ]</small>

Quipper

I'm not quite sure what you mean here,,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What hapened to her attorney saying you are going to have to pay him $500.00 if you try to lift the PPO?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Her attorney informed me if I didn't cancel the court date, all he'd have to explain to the judgs how he explianed this and or that to me,,, therefore i would be in dept to him the $500.00.

Anyhow,,thanks for these cross examanition,,, suggestions,,,

Steven