Hi GW,

By some miracle my inet is up for the moment. I read your initial post and none of the rest, simply because I have no idea how much time I have before I crash again. So, I apologize upfront if I'm duplicating and repeating what Star and J and others have said.

I am 28, we have been together since I was 15. I knew he had an affair 5 yr ago
with co-worker, but just recently (3 wk ago) a baby girl was born. Yes, the affair
had continued.h

So what did you do during the intervening 5 years? Did you know at the time? Was there a supposed end to the A? Does she still work with him?

He says he wants to stay with me and "work it out", but there is so
much to consider-so many complications, feelings etc.

Well, the thing to consider is this: Is he willing to do what it takes to PROVE to you that he will do what it takes to restore the marriage and is he willing to take extraordinary precautions to ensure that you never have to go through this again.

If he is willing to do those things.... not just say so, words are cheap and generally not worth the air they're spoken on.... but actually DO the things necessary then we can get your marriage back on track.

I was dignosed with breast cancer in December, we even went to fertility specialist
proir to my chemo because "we" were concerned with the possibility of infertility
assoc with my treatments.

OMG, I am so sorry. How incredibly horrible for you. Is there a family hx?

It turns out the doc said there was nothing to do at that
point, as my treatment was more pressing than anything, and we could cross the
infertility bridge if and when we come to it-it may not be a problem.

I don't know what to say. There aren't words for how badly I feel for you to be going through all this.

She was
already pregnant at this time, and we very likely could have become pregnant at
that time if the doc recommended it-which was quite likely.

So, did you know about the pregnancy? At what point did you find out the affair was still on?

Well, he doesn't expect her to legally demand child support-yeah, right.

Some states will not allow child support to be waived. And no matter what you the circumstances of the child's birth she does deserve to be cared for. The real victims here are you and the baby. Both of you undeserving of the whole mess they created.

I have been
told by others that she told him that if he "doesn't move in with her and leave me,
she will sue his a~~ off". I say good-then she will finally be the ENEMY to him that
I want her to be.

That would be a good thing.


We get along in our daily lives so well-we truely enjoy our lives together-this being
the exception.

This is a good sign for recovery.

So many feelings though-financially it won't be a burden, but emotionally-I will
resent every penny that goes in her direction-I know the baby needs financial
support, and it is innocent, but he has never been the kind to spend $$ on me-now
I feel well, yeah jealous.

Well of course you do!! Who wouldn't? The key to financial support of the child not being a huge oozing source of resentment for the next 18 years will be finding a way handle it that works for you. I would suggest first of all that any funds go through your state or county (however it's done where you are) and not directly to her. And then I wonder if it would feel less icky if you wrote and sent the check and he had nothing to do with it? Or perhaps if the funds were automatically deducted from you checking account each month? The idea to be to remove as much personal contact as possible... particularly between him and the mother.

Also, if he wants visitation I think he MUST do it with
ME-WE can have arrangements so that WE can pick up the child and have her for
visitation-he cannot expect to go to her house-alone- and visit!

Absolutely. In fact the deciding factor on whether or not there even IS visitation is you and how you feel about it. If you can see and interract with the child and not be resentful and angry and in pain then go for it. I would say too that it might take some trial and error and that the first visits might very well be the worst so give it a little time.

Then YOU should be the one to arrange the visitation, to pick up the child, return her. Your husband shouldn't be involved in that process at all. It would be even better if there was a third party that could mediate between you and the mother to remove contact even one more level.... but at least make sure that your husband has no contact with her.... period.

He could have ended the affair before there were any permanent ties.

Yes. Not having the affair in the first place would have been even better.

Also, I would LOVE to have had a child, a family. and HOPE desperately that I CAN
after the 3-5 yr I am supposed to wait.

I'm so sorry. I hope you can too.

Breast cancer at the age of 27, now this-I feel I am loosing the love of my life.
Believe it or not, but this is much harder than facing a life threatening disease at
27.

Yes, it is. It is by far one of the worst things that can happen to us as adults. I had a child who died at birth and the pain and horror of that was not as severe as the pain of being a betrayed spouse.

Sometimes I wonder well, I don't want to realize in several years that there is
still an affair, or another one, or that my options are reduced-like having to start
over and look for a new partner and less time to have a family.

Oh yes! I agree completely. He needs to end this relationship. Agree to no contact. Agree to conditions of recovery which include accountability for time, whereabouts and money 24/7.

I also feel that he threw away the opportunity for us to share in the birth of a first
child together, as he shared it with her already.

Yes, he has.

She still pages him. I don't know how to make it end. And I suspect he fears
"pissing her off" as she would be more likely to sue him.

Let her sue.... we could proactively stop that by simply agreeing to pay the state guidelines for c/s..... how would you feel about that?

they no longer work together.

Good, that needs to be part of the recovery. So contact is then voluntary? What is it that your husband does?

I don't really know what to do-where to begin. I have read it all and it makes sense, but
implementing the plans, policies, etc-what to do what to do, and what order, and you
know.

LOL.... yes I do know. I'll help you as I can here. As you know, my internet has been a mess of a nightmare the last week. Next week I had intended to take vacation before the kids go back to school. Now I'm thinking I'll work an abbreviated schedule. You'll have to forgive me for being slow to respond, but keep bumping and I will see and reply as soon as I can.

Do I go to the site with my husband and read some of the things together, do I just try to
discuss them from memory, do I print some of the questionnaires and info and work from
them, do we need to make an appt (of course this is a bit challenging as my cancer
treatment has used up all of our $$), do we both get on the phone and have a conference
session?? Is there any financial consideration due to my/our circumstances?

Let's see what we need to do to make sure the A is over first. Once we get there we'll talk about how and when to get him more directly involved. I would not bring him here yet, my gut feel is that it will do more to push him away right now. Do you have any of Harley's books? At some point I think that will be of great benefit to you two working together.

I do marriage coaching as a real life career and I'm an MB Weekend follow up coach, but I hang out here because I love what I do and to give back my time in the best way I know how. My marriage is alive because of MB and because of Bill Harley's concepts.

Also, someone
referred to "Cerri"-I looked all over the site, and found no reference-then someone enlightened me of this board.

Obviously, I need to get out more... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Ok, so here's where I think we should start. It sounds to me that there isn't a big issue with love busters on your part? And that you're willing to meet needs? If you are enjoying being together then I'm guessing you have that covered. But just to be sure..... is there anything in the marriage that your husband complains about?

Ok, the next Plan A step is to confront him about the things he's doing that are painful for you. He needs to hear how his interaction or contact with her makes you feel. I'm posting the list of feeling words, print it... you'll need it.

So, when he does something that is objectionable to you or when something happens that hurts or is offensive you need to tell him. You do that by saying, "I feel _____ when _____." In confronting this means that you tell him how you feel each and every time he has contact with the affair partner.

The next thing you need to do is to expose the affair if you haven't already. Your friends, your family, church community.... need to know. They need to know that your husband has a continuing relationship with this woman, that you want to save your marriage, and that as long as there is contact between them it's not possible for restoration of the marriage to even begin. Ask for their support in ending the affair and in helping the two of you get through this.... in whatever way they are willing to give it.

Ok..... I feel like there's huge chunks missing here. So I'll watch for your questions and comments and we'll go from there.

I would say that given how long this has been going on, and your emotional state that, that we don't want to drag out Plan A for any length of time. We'll talk more about the time line over the next week or so. It doesn't feel like you're to the Plan B point yet but I'd like to keep a close eye on that.

All the best.... and sorry for being lost in the cyber mist....

C

First of all-YAY!I have greatly appreciated everyone's guidance and support while Cerri was away, but feel like well, with just one response from Cerri-such compassion, understanding, guidance!!

OK now for the serious stuff-
I will just go through your post Cerri and answer some of the questions:
The 5y from d-day#1 and now-well, I was told the A was over, occas I would come across a possible hint of A I would ?? and of course be told NO, not happening.I wanted to trust him, so I did, yet not wholeheartedly.He is a correctional officer, so was she.She retired 12/02.It was possible because of the wk hrs-me days, he often would be on nights either 4P-12A or 12A-8A.My mom read the birth announcement in the paper and showed it to me. I then told him I knew-he had lied to me a couple days earlier about having to work a special function-he was at the hosp w/her having the baby.
Said it was a surprise to him also, that he only found out 1m earlier-actually knew the whole time, and went to ultrasound appts, etc.Was off wk to be w/me for chemo, etc and am sure that is how he had time for her too-while my mom was helping care for me.I found out the A was still on when I read of the birth.

He now says there is NC, but she pages him(pgr is for wk), he only wears it @ wk-and she knows there is no pt of pging him during off-wk time, but occas he is off, or leaves a page on there and I ck it-it only shows a voicemail-not her #, she is the only one that does that.I do not know the code to get them.I have been told by her family that he has agreed to pay her $700/mo CS-they MUST have talked to come to that agreement!

NOPE, no LB's on my part. He doesn't tell me or discuss ANYTHING. If I find out something-he may not deny it, but won't openly talk about anything.But, does say he loves me and wants to stay w/me-but he always has!Soon (couple wks) I will go back to wk (been off since 12/02 for tx)and he will be on 2P-10P while I will be on days-easy for him to see her-IF HE CHOOSES TO.

Everyone knows of the A and baby, but the people we have most contact with(his family mostly) mention nothing of it to him, yet are my main source of support, as my family says they support me, but since the first A, they really want me to leave him.. Should his family discuss the A and baby w/him around? With them acting as if it didn't happen, he doesn't have that to face, yet knows they know.They just didn't know what was best, ignore, discuss or what.I know he will say it isn't their business.

Since he denies contact is happening, but I know occas it is due to voicemail notifications-what do I do?Maybe I can insist the voicemail be disabled as his wk doesn't use it-only her, or give me the code to hear the mssgs too?She can still page him and/or call him @ wk-especially when I go to wk-he will have all the time in the world for her. He hasn't been able to have much contact w/her in last 8mo since I was off-primarily phone I think. But he denies contact, so how am I supposed to stop it, or even for that matter know about it, or when /if it does stop?

I have been trying to go with plan a but didn't really know how or what it was. I have just been trying to live out our daily lives normally-fun time, even better than normal (we have never fought, always get along pretty well), because I want him to realize how good it is when we are together-not stressing him, no probs-me be the good one, as I bet she is griping, demanding, etc..

YES!!!main goal now is ending A!!!How am I to work on making the A end? How can people help me do so?

Please ask further ??'s if I forgot to answer anything.

So so glad to have your support and guidance.

Morning GW,

First of all-YAY!I have greatly appreciated everyone's guidance and support while Cerri was away, but feel like well, with just one response from Cerri-such compassion, understanding, guidance!!

Too funny..... flattery will get you nowhere chica, but send me chocolate and I'll follow you anywhere! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

The 5y from d-day#1 and now-well, I was told the A was over, occas I would come across a possible hint of A I would ?? and of course be told NO, not happening.I wanted to trust him, so I did, yet not wholeheartedly.

Mmmmmmm yes, trust. Well first of all trust needs to be earned. We don't tend to think of it that way because the process of doing so in any relationship happens gradually over time. And then once the R is established we have a "truth bias" as Shirley Glass calls it, where we expect and lean toward the belief that our partner is being honest with us. So much so that we will discount our own misgivings and let the other person have the benefit of the doubt. We don't run words and actions through the same filter we do when we are getting to know someone, it's as if we turn off the radar.

Trust by necessity must be based on information. Real, hard and fast information. We can only truly trust someone that we know will take our feelings and concerns into account and act in accordance. Blindly believing someone without good information isn't trust, it's just ignorance.

When we trust someone, we don't have those icky nagging feelings in the back of our minds or the pit of our stomachs, because we have seen over and over again that our concerns will be honored.

Following infidelity, or some other betrayal, that's all been ripped to shreds. So for trust to be rebuilt you have to start at the beginning. You have to have hard and fast..COMPLETE... information. You need to KNOW by seeing that your fears, concerns and feelings will be taken into account and that you will be protected from ever having to deal with this kind of betrayal in the future. Even at the expense of your partners own desires.... e.g. wish to see the former affair partner or to remain "friends."

For all of that to happen there needs to be complete honesty and openness and there needs to be accountability. (And this should go both ways, you need to share all information as well) Cell phones, pagers, email accounts, voice mail accounts, computers, snail mail.... all those things need to be open to both parties to review at any time.

In addition to that, there needs to be a letter sent to the former lover stating unequivicoally that the A is over and that there will be no future contact whatsoever. And then extraordinary precautions need to be taken so that there is minimal opportunity for contact and even less opportunity that it would happen without you knowing about it.

All of those things need to be done, in place and working before real trust begins to return. And yes, it's a hassle and icky for both partners.... but what are the options? An affair is an addiciton and will most likely continue in even greater secrecy without those precautions.

He is a correctional officer, so was she.She retired 12/02.It was possible because of the wk hrs-me days, he often would be on nights either 4P-12A or 12A-8A.

If you want your marriage to survive, much less recover, you need to get on the same shift. Couples working opposite hours are setting themselves up for disaster. And yes I know all the reasons why it makes sense or why people think they "must" schedule their time that way, but the bottom line is that it will destroy your marriage eventually.... I would say this is one of the conditions that led to and allowed the affair to continue which needs to be addressed before recovery can occur.

My mom read the birth announcement in the paper and showed it to me. I then told him I knew-he had lied to me a couple days earlier about having to work a special function-he was at the hosp w/her having the baby.

So was he listed as the father? How awful. I can't even begin to imagine.

[b ]Said it was a surprise to him also, that he only found out 1m earlier-actually knew the whole time, and went to ultrasound appts, etc.Was off wk to be w/me for chemo, etc and am sure that is how he had time for her too-while my mom was helping care for me.I found out the A was still on when I read of the birth.[/b]

Ok, so I'm leaning heavier towards Plan B in the near future. If he lied all those years and through the pregnancy to this extent, then obviously your actions to entice him away from her and back into the marriage are not working.

He now says there is NC, but she pages him(pgr is for wk), he only wears it @ wk-and she knows there is no pt of pging him during off-wk time, but occas he is off, or leaves a page on there and I ck it-it only shows a voicemail-not her #, she is the only one that does that.

Unless he has sent a n/c letter and made his life an open book and there are extraordinary precautions in place... you can assume there is contact and that the affair continues full force.

I do not know the code to get them.I have been told by her family that he has agreed to pay her $700/mo CS-they MUST have talked to come to that agreement!

So the big deal about being afraid she will sue him is just a lie. Any idea what your state guidelines are for c/s?

But, does say he loves me and wants to stay w/me-but he always has!Soon (couple wks) I will go back to wk (been off since 12/02 for tx)and he will be on 2P-10P while I will be on days-easy for him to see her-IF HE CHOOSES TO.

Ok, you must get on the same shift. It would be better if you don't go back to work at all than to go back on opposite schedules.

Everyone knows of the A and baby, but the people we have most contact with(his family mostly) mention nothing of it to him, yet are my main source of support, as my family says they support me, but since the first A, they really want me to leave him..

Yes, of course they do, because they see that you are in pain and want that to stop. Here's what I would suggest, send an email to everyone you know, and I do mean everyone... that says what you told me. My husband had an affair 5 years ago, he said it was over and I trusted him without seeing any proof. Now I find out it is still going on and that he has had a child with this woman. I love my husband and want to save my marriage but I can't do it as long as the other woman is in the picture. Please encourage him to do the right thing, end the affair and all contact with the mother and to recommit to our marriage.

Ok, I'm talking family, friends, co-workers, church family, your car mechanic, everyone in your address book.

Then I want you to confront her. Tell her that you know about the A and about the baby. That you love your husband and want to restore your marriage. Ask her to please do the honorable thing and end the R with your husband and never see or speak to him again. (she won't... she'll be really angry... but she can't un-hear it AND most importantly it introduces conflict into the affair.)

Then confront him with everything you know. Just the facts and the feelings.... What you know, how you know it, and how it makes you feel. You can put it in a letter if you like.... post it or send it to me first and I'll help you weed it out.

That's the part of Plan A that you are missing, and the part that will end the A... or get the ball rolling in that direction. He might be really really angry and leave. Let him. It's not the man you married, it's the addiction acting out of fear of the threat that it may lose.

No one wants to take these steps. No one. It's scary and out of character. It goes against our instincts and emotions. Everyone gets the part about meeting needs and avoiding LBers..... but as you've seen that doesn't really work to end the affair does it? And no matter what you read here... that is the stated goal of Plan A. Plan A is a strategy first and foremost to end the affair. Unless and until you do that there is nothing you can do to restore your marriage.

Should his family discuss the A and baby w/him around?

Oh yeah.... they should be refusing to have anything to do with him until he ends it once and for all and recommits to your marriage.

With them acting as if it didn't happen, he doesn't have that to face, yet knows they know.

Affairs end much quicker when there is disapproval from the people around us. Just like anything else we do that we know we shouldn't... oif we thought others knew and would confront us about it we would think twice. How often do you speed with a state patrol right behind you? Exactly..... same thing applies.

They just didn't know what was best, ignore, discuss or what.I know he will say it isn't their business.

Of course he will. That's the addiction protecting itself. But, as I tell my kids all the time... just because someone says something doesn't mean you have to go along with it!

Since he denies contact is happening, but I know occas it is due to voicemail notifications-what do I do?

Well, I would say "Honey, I know you must be doing the right thing (yeah, yeah... just grit your teeth and say it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) But I'm really uncomfortable with not being able to access anything so I would feel sooooo much better if I could have all the passwords to ___ (whatever... phone, pager, email etc.) It would show me that it really is over and we can begin to heal."

And then when he says work wouldn't allow that.... offer to talk to them and explain the whole situation so that they can make an exception.

He'll turn you down flat with every excuse in the book... unless he has nothing to hide.... so you need to tell him day in and day out that you are concerned and that not having all the information available is very difficult for you.

But he denies contact, so how am I supposed to stop it, or even for that matter know about it, or when /if it does stop?

I have been trying to go with plan a but didn't really know how or what it was.

Do you have SAA? The thing is the book was published in 98 and Harley is continually revising and updating how he addresses infidelity, as he hears and learns from people he works with.... so the stuff about confronting and exposing is newer than that and not well definined in the book.

I have just been trying to live out our daily lives normally-fun time, even better than normal (we have never fought, always get along pretty well), because I want him to realize how good it is when we are together-not stressing him, no probs-me be the good one, as I bet she is griping, demanding, etc..

She may be. But since an affair is a fantasy R it doesn't have the same impact. He's not living with her, doesn't have to deal with laundry, bill paying, cleaning..... dirty sox on the floor and who makes the bed?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> The fantasy of an A wards off quite a bit of the partner's icky personality.... that's why exposing makes such a dent.... how they have to deal in real time.

The other thing is that although it seems you've done a good job of making home a great place and time with you is fun.... it hasn't worked. If it's been more than five years, then it's pretty clear it's not going to work. You need to take the other steps before it's too late.

I just want to reiterate that it's crucial you not go on opposite shifts. That's the big thing you need to think about, and then plan the exposure for very soon. Confronting can begin today.

If you want another opinion, I would suggest you call Dr. Bill Harley's radio show on Monday. 1pm CT 1-888-332-5169 ... call at the top of the hour to be sure to get in... a few minutes before one is best. You can tell them you talked to me (Penny) if you like.

I'll check in over the weekend as long as I'm staying connected. I want to try to catch up on other stuff here too.

C

Re reading I thought maybe I'd just recap (obviously I've been offline way too long and have been missing my daily fix... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )

1. Confront with what you know and how you feel

2. Ask for access to all points of contact / Continue to state how you feel being kept in the4 dark and to ask for those things. ASK, not demand. Say please and explain why it would be helpful for you. Drop it if he gets nasty and do not escalate to making judgmental statements.

3. Discuss with family members what you would like

4. Send exposure email / snail mail

5. Send email confronting her (snail mail works too)

6. Hide from mushroom cloud when the addiction causes the huge temper tantrum

7. Stay calm / find me I'll walk you through this stage It's very scary to see an threatened addiction out of control with anger.

8. Be thinking about Plan B if the A doesn't end very shortly

Ok, I feel better.... my obsessive need to arrange things neatly is now satisfied. LOL

C

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thx for the smile!

I told him a bit of my feelings several days ago-how I felt robbed of the opportunity to have a 1st child together and that things must change, and that I understand that it may be difficult to end the A and that he may be tempted to continue contact w/her, but that our relationship cannot work if contact doesn't end-tried to express, but be gentle and non-threatening- but this was before I got to discuss with you. He listened, for a while-didn't really reply, or respond, but did let me talk for a little while. I did ask him to leave his pgr home today, so as not to be tempted t call hreturn her call, but was just told "shut up". We get along great, as long as I don't try to take his cake away-you know the one that he has had and been eating too. e would love for me to sit back and "believe" the fact that his A w/her is over and let it continue the way it has-have me day-in and out and be the totally devoted loving, helpful, supportive etc me-and sneak around and get together w/her for thrills or whatever.

Well, his g-ma (whom raised him-was his mother figure) briefly gave him a word of encouragement and wil talk w/him more if given the opportunity nperson again soon-as he would likely hang-up the phone if approached that way. aAnd his mother (whom he does have a relationsip with)plans to talk to him soon too.I asked that they discuss, and encourage, reminding him of what a wonderful life we have had and can make better in the future, with effort-but not be judgemental, or make him get defensive-it isn't a trial, just a time of encouragement.

As far as our wk sched-I am a dental hygienist-have a great job at a university, not just any job in any office-and it is a daytime job. He works 2-10 now and will change in Jan. to dayshift-well that used to be 8-4, but they just reconfig'd and it will be 6-2. Anyway, he only has 10y left before he can fully retire, and he is in law enforcement-any job that he changed to, which I know he won't, would be shift work-6 mo on the same shift. He tried to get a day posn at the prison a few y ago-I think in an effort to be on my shift, and less tempted to stray, but didn't get the posn-now there aren't likely any posns open where he can keep his retirement, and change to days permanently-besides, I have been off for 9mo now and he has gone to appt w/her, he was there for the birth, am told he took her furniture and put it together, and I have no clue how timewise-we were together at all times, except when he was supposed to be at work, and a few times when I was soooooo ill from chemo, and stayed with my mom-guess it was "quality" rather than "quantity" time!? He did take a part time job the last couple yrs off and on that he loves--and he would do so again and that would occupy his other free time while I am at work, maybe we should discuss that?

Anyway, what to do?! I just feel like yeah, I enjoy our time together, except when I lay awake or am startled awake by nightmares and lay there for hours with resentment and hurt going through my mind-knowing that nothing has changed-it is still going on just as it has been.

How long do I wait to do plan B? He knows and has appreciation for what we have together(relationship wise, recreation, affection, everything-he has no complaints), and how we live, but I guess he thinks that he has gotten away with "it" for so long, it can continue, after all he told me all these years he was on the straight and narrow and had nothing to worry about-ALL LIES- and got away with it-why not continue!? Guess I will also tell him that I gave him the benefit of the doubt, and gave him trust, space, etc-now I can't just accept it any longer as before, and he must earn it, and prove himself and work on change. Should I try give time for his family and friends to talk to him and try talking some more, and negotiate the NC and pager situation, and express interest to be involved w/child decisions and "help" him in that regard-a short while-some times I don't feel I can do it any longer, and other times I am ok-but don't really see an end in sight.

When I bounce things back and forth w/you I feel like I do when I see my oncologist-they don't have all the answers, but generally knows what to recommend-there are no gaurantees, and I have to make the decisions myself, but they educate me-and as far as that goes, I also feel like you are giving me information that is just as valuable.

?!

Nothing new here-just checking for replies.
Haven't discussed anything/negotiated-but feel so empty-knowing that nothing has changed and that progress isn't being made-his mom is supposed to talk to him this weekend-she lives just down the street, but they work opposite schedules but both will be off this weekend-really doubt that any amount of talking will have any effect.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

His Mom has been planning to talk to him this wkend-talked to her today-she said what she is planning to say. I don't think it will help! She is planning on being very confrontational, asking when she can see the baby, judgemental, etc. I know he is the one at fault, and has to face the consequences, but-I wanted her to talk with him about OUR relationship-how fortunate he is to have the opportunity at another chance with me-etc. Guess I will have to tell her to forget the whole thing-and just deal with it alone. I have told her I do not want it to be a big, bad deal, where he feels attacked-if it is a fairly calm, even positive discussion, maybe he would better gain the intended information. She says she agrees, and then the next time we talk, she has thought of "cute" or "funny" disrespectful things to say to him. He won't take anything she says as valid then!

He had numerous message indicators on his pager this AM-left from last nights shift @ wk-of course from her. He knows I know about the voicemail, and that they talk on the phone while he is at work. I just don't know how to stop it.

Yesterday he asked why one of my brothers hasn't called in a while-we like to do things w/bro & sis-in-law. I told him that my brother has been busy w/work, new baby, and moving, and that he also is disappointed in the situation. I told him also what my bro had said-that he can accept him, and get along, if he treats me right. He asked why "everyone has to know" I replied that it was in the paper for goodness sake, and how can he expect to have a child w/someone else, and expect noone to know?!

Maybe I will be brave enough to discuss more-but know he won't be open to it. It will end with him angry, and me hurt more because he won't be responsive. Feel like discussing things causes more friction than progress-but no progress is made w/out discussion and change.

Have been trying to be normal, and pleasant while awaiting guidance-especially after updating the info re: work and hours, etc. Don't want to plan b w/out knowing it is the thing to do at the appropriate time.

Well, I have been just trying to stay calm, continue to enjoy each other, be thoughtful and caring (not out of the ordinary-always have) and TRY to discuss the situation at brief intervals.

I sort-of lost it the other day though. I just felt like I am the "roommate" or "buddy" I want to be the best friend, lover, companion, etc. He kisses me about like my brother would-a little peck-that's it. I told him I am not his roomie, and that he made the effort to sneak around, lie, cheat, and hurt me for years in order to see her and f#$% her-I am right here with him, and he doesn't make the effort to give me affection. After that, we did some things at home together-projects around the house-both of us had a great time. It didn't seem to upset him much, and I did apologize for loosing my temper, but he kindof accepted it as a realization he hadn't thought of that way.

A couple days later-he commented about $$-as I have been off work since 12/02 for breast cancer treatment/surgery/recuperation. I calmly told him he made a mistake that is the greatest factor financially right now-he knew what I meant-CS. I asked him if he had sent her any $-he joked around a bit-then said "yes, $500." I reminded him I would have loved to have had a child with him-but that I had made the effort all these years not to get pregnant yet, so we could pay off all of our luxuries-boat, cars, truck, etc, and be exceptionally financially stable before we had a child. I told him that I was worried that now I will not be able to work less and have a child when the time comes (it has been recommended I wait 3 yr before getting pregnant due to breast cancer-if I am not infertile). He said he does want to have a child with me and that our things will be paid for by then and that I will be able to stay home with a baby when the time comes. He listened, didn't get defensive, and actually verbalized (that is not common with him about anything-doesn't talk much to anyone ever)!! He admitted that she pages him occas and he talks with her ocass too. I told him all contact needs to stop and that I will be going to work soon and that it would be good to have the susceptable initial withdrawl over with by then, and that I was terrified that the A would continue/resume when I go back to work. That there will likely be some very difficult times ahead as I will be more and more uneasy when I am working and don't know where he is, and that he will have to be accountable for his time. He agreed that he didn't "deserve" my trust and that he would have to earn it ,and that he will make the effort to earn trust and make me comfortable and be accountable for his time.

I thanked him for being honest about the $$ and for talking with me.

I hope and pray that this is the breakthrough and start of rebuilding that we needed.

It is only a babystep, but I will continue to try to introduce and implement changes and improve our relationship.

I fight the "why's" and "what if's" several times a day. The resentment, the fact that he shared the experiences of childbirth with someone else, and appeared to others that he enjoyed it- the future and what it will entail as far as OC goes. The fact that he has never been very generous with $$ or gifts for me- figured the $ was going for OUR things so it didn't need to come from paying for our luxury items in order to provide for gifts for me alone, but now he chose to have a big financial responsibility, guess he could have spent more $ on me all those yrs as he HAS to spend $ on something now-he could have all along.

I also hope that he doesn't plan to stay with me just because he cannot afford to live as he has been or even live poorly if he had to pay bills/rent/cs alone, as I make a great deal more than he does.

We don't live extravagantly, but have tried to plan things out just "perfect" and work hard NOW so we can have the extras and be comfortable doing so later on.

I have rambled on quite a bit.

I hope I have made some headway, and that I haven't done things wrong. I would still like/welcome feedback and guidance. He may still plan to continue things on the way he has-A w/her and me @ home and just telling me what he thinks I want to hear-hope not!