I posted that I just found out that my H of 14 years has been having an affair for almost 4 years with a coworker. Her Husband called me and asked me if I wanted to see their emails and he sent me almost 1000 pages of emails they wrote over these years.

As you all know, I feel like my life has just fallen apart. I am trying very hard to understand what is happening to me by reading. Last night I went to the bookstore and read as much as I could in infidelity books. The books that helped me most explained things like split-self affairs and emotional affairs. This is not a one night stand or just for sex involvement on my husband's part. I have the emails. He shared more with her than he has ever shared with me, and the searing pain of that threatens to destroy me with every breath I take.

I stare into this abyss called my life and am trying to understand what to do next. Many of you have been helpful so far... I don't know that I understand what you are saying, but I am trying.

I met my H when I was 22. We dated for one and a half years before he proposed. We married after we knew each other 2 and a half years. We were both in school and were good students, so during that time we saw each other mostly on weekends, sometimes during the week, and talked on the phone.

This affair has lasted longer than our engagement! The pain of that realization sears to the core of my being. From the emails I have in front of me, it looks like they know each other better than I knew the man I married!

How can I understand this in a way that gives me hope? How can I call this relationship with that woman a fog? What, exactly, does fog mean? Can it help me put my life back together?

I don't know if my husband and I will save our marriage. It's too soon to tell. I'm trying to read everything and understand your wisdom before I even try to make a decision.

Thank you for your patience.

neversuspected,

If you haven't already, please read SAA. It can give you a roadmap on recovery. You seem pretty "together" considering the shock you've just received. Do what you can to stay that way. I think you're handling things the smart way. Have you confronted your H yet? If not, please do more reading here to figure out the best way to do it. If you have, let us know his response and what further questions you have on it.

The fog sounds like temporary insanity, but it's probably pretty entrenched in his world right now. There are ways to get thru it.

I hope you get some great guidance here and wish you the best of luck. Your situation is not as impossible as it feels right now. Keep strong.

Dobie

Never,
Fog: Is a state of mind created in a fantasy world.
You see, when you don’t live with someone and share day to day real life issues like bills, kids, jobs, laundry, grocery shopping, house cleaning etc. You have to fill in the blanks mentally. A person can conjure up some pretty perfect stuff in their head and that is fog. Fog dismisses that a “fantasy” soul mate actually has bad days, gets sick, isn’t in the mood etc. It neglects the fact the OP (other person) actually farts and burps. Fog is a perfect image where the OP is perfect in everyway. Hey, it’s make believe and if someone is creating a fantasy for themselves why not make it perfect.

Both parties bolster it. This OW only shows your H the good stuff. She doesn’t burden him with reality, puts on the face she knows he likes and loves being on a pedestal. Your H doess the same for her, only shows the good and hides reality.

The best way I can describe it is, that it is the way you once saw your H in those early days when you were courting. You had rosy colored glasses and he was a prince. Think hard you’ll remember it even though reality has distance it from you. Fog is actually a wonderful thing if it’s yours. The big draw back is that it won’t last in the light of day. Reality eventually happens.

I hope that helped explain it a bit. Another piece of advice, which you won’t follow but I’ll say anyway. Put those letters in a box and hide them. Don’t throw them away, as you may need them for legal reasons at some point. But for God sakes quit reading them. You know what has happened, reading it is only tearing you apart and confusing you. You need your head on, as straight as possible right now, please don’t add to the misery.

Hang in there,

Oz

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by oswald:
<strong>Never,
Fog: Is a state of mind created in a fantasy world.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Oswald - I have always wondered if the fog was really meant "in love with" and if my WW has just moved on with the rest of her life.

Your description draws a line between the two.

Thank you for the replies. Like I said, I'm trying to put together what I have learned from these emails with the concepts you are presenting and the books I am reading. I don't know how to make sense of this other than in terms I already know.

My problem is that these two worked together and shared their day to day lives together. It's hard for me to see that they only showed each other their good qualities in the four years they carried this on. My husband's job is stressful. He's not exactly an angel when he is under stress. Surely she has seen him that way?

I asked my husband how long he knew her and he told me he met her two years before the affair began. Two years!!!!

If I could believe it was a fantasy it might make the pain easier to bear. If I could believe that this is a cloud that will disappear as quickly as it arrived, I would have hope! If I could get free of the words that came from his mouth that he loves her, I might be able to breathe without feeling like I will crumble!

I went to the Dr. and got a prescription for antidepressants. She said it may take a week or two to help.

All I have are these emails. I don't know the man who wrote them. I never talk to him the way she does, he never discusses these things with me. Who is he? Who have I been to him? Who is she to him?

Thank you for saying I am handling this well. I am simply in shock. I am going back to my home tonight. I have travelled for work before so my children think mommy went on a little business trip. They are 8 and 10 and are very close to their father.

I'm reeling. We don't have troubles paying the bills. We never argued or fought about these things people keep bringing up that are supposed to make me feel better. Somehow, they don't make me feel better. Nothing does right now.

Thanks for your advice. He and I are scheduled to talk tonight. I think I can finally face him and start a "Plan A", although I'm not even sure I fully understand it yet.

Is this marriage worth saving? Do I want to be married to this man?

Hi Neversuspected

I'm sorry you have to be here, I never did. I never suspected either and yes it is a rollercoaster ride of emotions.

As for your questions
------------------------------------------------
Is this marriage worth saving? Do I want to be married to this man?
------------------------------------------------

From your pain you still love him, so yes it is worth saving. But, it will take work. My D-day was last month. Things are better but my W and I still have a lot of work ahead of us. Time and Patience is needed for both people. You have the rougher road, like me it is a road not of your own choosing.

Turn to God as you work through recovery. He is there waiting to help you, to strenghten you, to help bring you peace when you truly need it. He will carry you as long as you need him to. He Loves you.

Keep reading, keep posting, try to have your husband read His Needs Her Needs together, and Surviving an Affair. Our pastor also had us doing a bible study together reading 3 chapters a day with notes. Start in John.

My thoughts are with you

ns,

As I said on your other thread, don't make a decision now. Wait 6 months before you even consider such a decision.

You made a comment that I think you should reflect on. You said you don't know who your H is. My bet is that he doesn't either. He has played both ends against the middle for four years. What you must come to understand is that IF you two decide to make this marriage work, you can do it.

You have not stated your H's position on this affair and what if any actions he is willing to take to separate himself from the OW. Working togehter won't be acceptable, that is pretty sure. Is he willing to go to no contact?

You will need to learn these things in the weeks and months to come. Clearly your marriage was not what you thought, but remember what you were told on the other thread. Those emails don't represent reality either, as neither your H nor OW filed for divorce. It was a fantasy in that they felt they could have both of their marriages and this relationship as well, and it wouldn't hurt anyone.

That is the "fog" NS. The fog is the flawed logic that goes into an affair, the justifications, the odd decisions. Being in the fog does not mean that love or deep feelings were not there, but simply that the "logic" of the decisions is deeply flawed and often doesn't represent reality.

It is one reason why you don't understand things. You are searching those emails to understand and they will not really help you. They are fantasy and part of the fog. The suggestion to put them away for awhile if not forever is a good one.

You will need "facts" and "actions" from your H in order to believe that the marriage can be saved or that it is doomed.

I suggest that you read the articles here about Harley's 4 rules for a successful marriage. They are short, and very common sense. When you finish reading them read the articles on "radical honesty" and the Policy of Joint Agreement, POJA. These are the methods by which the 4 rules are implemented.

The POJA is very crucial to you. Harley states that even the decision to divorce should be done with the POJA. It is a negotiating approach that basically says no decision should be carried out until both parties are enthusicatic that it is the best choice, and that includes divorce.

As you can see, you cannot possible leave, divorce, or even separate for at least 3 months; we have given far too much to read. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> So please do read these articles.

Hang in there NS, it will get better.

God Bless,

JL

PS: I would strongly recommend that you consider calling either of the Harley's that do phone counseling. They are very good, and they learned this approach forwards and backwards from their father. Counseling is much cheaper than divorce, and I think it could save your marriage.

X-OW here...longterm affair. (Need not say more.)

Fog, feh. Doesn't matter what it is. As soon as you get the strength tell him he needs to make a choice and live with it. If he's in love with her, then his actions will back that. If he's in love with you, and temporarily derailed, then he needs to decide for himself if he wants you, and do anything possible to win you back.

The whole fog discussion is useless. It's an 'out' for the wanderer. It legitimizes a state of being that is not conscious choice. At one time, he chose to marry you. At another, he chose to enter a relationship with another.

He needs to be made to live with one choice or the other. Of course, you are going to have to put up with his pining and depression and petulance when he doesn't have two women any more. Whether he'll buckle down and do the work on himself is yet another question. Whether you want a man who doesn't do that is yet another.

For you, it means a path to sainthood if you want this marriage--betrayers are not comfortable in therapeutic environments, it seems. You are going to have to do most or all of the work. The question is, for you, for what? If you love him, then it's worth it, imo. If not, cut him loose.

I'm reading and reading until my eyes threaten to bulge out. It's the only thing that is keeping me going right now, realizing that so many people have already gone through this!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is the "fog" NS. The fog is the flawed logic that goes into an affair, the justifications, the odd decisions. Being in the fog does not mean that love or deep feelings were not there, but simply that the "logic" of the decisions is deeply flawed and often doesn't represent reality. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you. This is the best explanation so far, because I KNOW THAT DEEP FEELINGS WERE THERE! If there was some way to convince myself there were NO deep feelings, the pain might not be so severe.

But the "logic", if there is any such thing here, is flawed. He believed he had the right to hide this from me! That as long as I didn't know, it was OK to keep me in the dark about another relationship!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Terminator - You say you are an x-OW. It is very diffiult to see you as an individual right now rather than my Husband's Other Woman <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> , but you make sense. I don't understand yet how a relationship like the one my husband has with that woman is a FANTASY.

If it's a fantasy, why does it hurt so bad?? If it isn't REAL, as REAL as the light of day, why is the pain so great????

I'm teetering on the edge of confusion. I will try to take a nap. I feel like I haven't slept in years.

Hello NS,

I read your thread and had to reply. You described the heartwrenching pain I once felt and thought I could help you in some way by letting you know that I, along with others here, understand.

I cried until I could cry no more. I walked around aimlessly wondering how my H could do this to "us", to his 2-year old daughter, to "our" life...I was in shock.

After all this time, I still remember and the tears flow. You will always remember but the pain will be dulled somewhat by the strength tha MB helps you to build.

And you have no choice but to build it. And you will become "bigger, better and stronger" than the affair!

Focus on you, your life, your children...try to take from this what you can to improve YOU.

Show him that you can rise above the pain.

Look to God. Pray. Come here. Don't beg. Don't plead. Don't ask. Walk away. Smile and accept.

The verdict is still unknown. You have a long road ahead.

My prayers are with you.

Originally posted by terminator:
X-OW here...longterm affair. (Need not say more.)... yeah sweetie..you can say more!!!, instead of saying "long term", say "as usual all affairs die, same with mine: even in my great strength AKA The terminator: I ended the great LOVE affair with the weak little wimp (read:your WS)...and with remorse... I threw him back, so broken... to you!")

Fog, feh. Doesn't matter what it is...If he's in love with her, then his actions will back that. If he's in love with you, and temporarily derailed,...

Dustkitty here! Finally Term'tor tells us what the "fog" really is! She says it is when someone LOVES someone else!...not the spouse! (us poor fools!) It isn't a fantasy created to mask, self comfort or "step out"...they fall in LOVE with someone else. Gosh, of course....we BS are just telling ourselves that they were having a Disneyland experience and now we know that it is LOVE! Gosh darn it now the whole "fog" concept has been exposed! Don't fight it BSz, it ain't FOG, it's LOVE! Term'tor has been there, she knows!
The whole fog discussion is useless. It's an 'out' for the wanderer. It legitimizes a state of being that is not conscious choice. At one time, he chose to marry you. At another, he chose to enter a relationship with another.

Darn straight Terminator! At one time he choose to marry us and at another time he chose to enter into a relationship with a LOVE-ing person. You are saying that kinda makes the OP and the BS "peers" because of equal LOVE? He chooses between his two LOVES. What the heck were we thinking that marriage mates had a corner on LOVE!

Of course, you are going to have to put up with his pining and depression and petulance when he doesn't have two women any more.

Oh yes, if one of his LOVES could just be like the mother in the King Solomon story and give up the baby rather than have it sawn in two. Which mother LOVES the baby the most? Usually the OW because she allows it to live with the wife. Such LOVE!

Whether he'll buckle down and do the work on himself is yet another question. Whether you want a man who doesn't do that is yet another.

Yes Term'tor....most wifey's aren't real women enough to keep the damaged goods, we be resentful shrews that can't LOVE good enuff! Good ad spot for" OW's LOVE enought to keep your sorry a$$"

For you, it means a path to sainthood if you want this marriage--betrayers are not comfortable in therapeutic environments, it seems. You are going to have to do most or all of the work. The question is, for you, for what? If you love him, then it's worth it, imo. If not, cut him loose. QUOTE]

Bravo! You are hired as the new CNN Spin Doctor! In one post you were able under the guise of compassion tell the BS that their husbands fell in equal LOVE with a more compassionate person than them, and entered into a "peer" relationship and now they are gonna have sad, dysfuntual wrecks as a result of yanking them back from a LOVEing relationship.

Ok notepads out you foolish BSz...it isn't "FOG" it's LOVE. You are not special you silly gooses, you are a peer with the LOVEing OP.

The WS is going to be a pile of mush when you get them back,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">pining and depression and petulance </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">because he doesn't LOVE the two women in his life, he has to settle for you!

Term'tor this is misplaced anger, because I lived my whole life with a mother who LOVED someone that was not my father. I am finely attuned to my ears perking up when I hear shrill justification for relationships "higher and sweeter" than marriage.
Let's just say if you are here to gain the skills to keep your children from becoming "infidelity heirs"...then you should tell them your entire story and then let them read your thoughts as you post here. I learned early on that all the sing-song praises of extra-martial LOVE does not eclipse hypocrisy.

Dustkitty,

My goodness.

I think you are reading something into my post that I did not intend.

This is my experience. I appreciate your acknowledging that your anger is misplaced, though.

X-MM did not have the strength or werewithal to end the relationship. I did. It turned out that there were benefits in personal growth for me during and afterwards. End of story.

I am sorry for your pain.

Terminator "End of story" .... ?? Methinks not the end of story.

Aren't you still married yourself T?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

NS,

Any information on what the OWH is planning on doing with their marriage?

I know this has destroyed your world as you knew it, but I have to say that I admire the courage of OWH for being able to actually tell you and give you proof.

JL said counseling with the Harley's is the best way to go. He's right - it saved me so much agony because he (Steve Harley) expedited our recovery.

Best of all (seemed worst at the time!) I learned what role I played in our marriage that created the conditions for the affair.

Greater than that, SH coached my FWH through a recovery plan that restored our marriage. But I've gotten too far ahead here wanting you to see the value of their counseling.

Being an expert in a narrow field of expertise the Harley family will guide YOU in what to do next. Their counseling is very definitely based on each person's individual situation. It's way beyond what you'll read here or in their books!

Blessings to you in your recovery. And I mean your personal recovery, which is separate from your marital recovery. CSue

This is an issue I have been having difficulty with as well. I did wonder if the "fog" was just an excuse or a way to make the the WS and BS feel better about what happened - kind of like "Sorry, I didn't know what I was doing". It does seem to be a convenient excuse, but I can't dismiss the concept completely, even after reading dustkitty's reply above.

Why? because love doesn't explain what my W did. A couple of specifics about my situation may help.

OM got W pregnant. Before we got married and for 4 or 5 years afterwards, we did not have sex without using condoms. We were very much in love, but we didn't what a child yet. Why in the #$%&*()*)^ world don't people in affairs use freakin' birth control? It is an extremely logical discussion - "we're having sex, we don't want a child, we need to use birth control". To make matters worse, in my situation, W had "female problems" 3 months before she got pregnant and her doctor suggested she begin taking the pill to get her cycle regular again. I remember laying in bed with her discussing the pros and cons. The obvious pro in her mind should have been - "Hey, I'm having sex with womeone I shouldn't, here's a reason my husband knows about that I should go on the pill". She says it never occurred to either of them to use birth control. That's love working there?

Second, W lost a management position in her company because of the affair. It was a huge career set-back for her, if not a career ender at her company. She had been to all of the sexual harrassment training, etc... She says she thought about the possibility, but didn't think anyone would find out. W is a very logical person that has always put a lot of thought into whatever she is involved in. That's love blinding her?

I think there is an emotion very similar to love that happens to people, and not just in an affair. It is a black, thoughtless and selfish emotion that disguises itself as love. It is the emotion that justifies what you are doing, even after aknowledging the consequences IF you get caught. It is the emotion that says "I won't get caught". It is an emotion that allows one to do things that will cause great pain and suffering to others. That is what happens in an affair. In short, I think that this emotion that disguises itself as love and the "fog" are one and the same.

NS,

I think JoltedGene, just gave you the best explanation of "the fog" you will ever get. Consider what his W did. If she really loved OM and wanted a life together, it was NOT in her best interests or OM's best interest for her to get her career sidetracked. If she wanted a good and fun relationship with OM, it was NOT in her best interest to get pregnant, by ANYONE. In short, if she really want a happy, loving, and long term marriage to OM, what she did was just stupid.

Now, if you consider, that she wanted to continue her marriage to Jolted, getting pregnant by OM was NOT a good idea. If she wanted to continue her marriage as usual getting her career terminated was NOT a good idea.

In short, no matter how you looked at her situation, the risks she took, and the consequences she got were NOT good for her affair or her marriage. THAT IS THE FOG. Just plain dumb, illogical, selfish, irresponsible actions.

It says NOTHING about whether or not she loved OM or JOLTED or both. It was just stupid. It also does NOT justify the affair, or behavior afterwards. When people here say it is the "fog" it means don't believe alot of what you have heard, seen, or found out. The logic for doing what they did is flawed, to the point of hurting any of their choices.

God Bless,

JL

Pep,

Perhaps "end of story" is not the right phrase. Yes, I am still married. My husband and I have discussed the eventuality of divorce more than once. I will file when I am able. (Able to minimize the financial impacts, and able be the bad guy with all that entails.)

FYI, for all you flamers out there: I have accepted that (along with my husband) I have failed at pairing in this life. It is much easier to accept that failure, the fruits of my own volition, than to agonize about the 'one true love' or 'soulmate' and all that. My husband had been married 3 times before me. (He lied and said it was only 2, I found out later it was 3.) I married young and in a very needy state (recovering from alcoholism--talk about "the fog"!!). 10 years into the marriage, my husband's ugly temper got the better of him and he grabbed me by the arm and shook me. That severed the emotional connection completely and finally. I had the affair soon after this. Know this: if I had had anything at all going on at home, even some sporadic evidence of connection or shared interests or values and even weekly perfunctory sex, I would not have had the affair. Or if I had had any real faith in God at all, then, I would not have had it.

Since the domestic violence incident, I have forgiven him. I almost left at the time (I said, after he let go of me, "That's it, we're through.") but I didn't want the kids to know that their father had done that. Every so often now he loses his temper (anger out of proportion to the situation) and yells and makes one of the girls cry. I tell them that its wrong for him to yell like that, and I know it hurts, but to try to forgive and continue to show respect because he is their father. I no longer confront him and reprimand him for yelling at them. I used to. Now, usually, he confesses it before I find the weeping child; usually he casts it as more the child's fault, as though disrespect was the provocateur.

So, I guess you all think it would be good if X-MM's W would contact my H and tell him. (I think she thinks so--I think she might actually do it.) But, if she does, fine--I throw up my hands. Whatever comes will come. It will be what is due me, whatever it is...it will be what's meant to happen. He may hit me, he may shoot me, he may sit and weep.

My husband is not a bad person. He needs desperately to find God, or to work some things out for himself in therapy and I wish he would. We have been in counseling and he was in individual therapy but didn't stay with it. Nor was my mother a bad person, even after a tortured, crazy, damaging life--she ended up drinking herself to death. But I couldn't save her, and I can't save him.

All I can do is be as kind and forgiving as I can at home (thank God for God, I wouldn't know how to begin to do this otherwise) and preserve what we have that is good--our shared love for the kids. We would be apart now if not for the fact that neither can stand the idea of not being in the kids' daily lives. I understand that feeling in him--as much as I think we are totally unsuitable for one another, I fully understand that in him like nobody else could.

I guess within ourselves, there are two kinds of love: love that we are called to, and love that we are inclined to. I "feel" nothing for my husband in terms of loving feelings. But I know that God loves him, completely and unconditionally, and that is what I am called to emulate...there will be no sex, ever again. Once he raised his hand in anger, that was it. For that and other reasons, I can't "feel" what is necessary and I won't fake it.

This is very strange, to post this here. Everyone is trying to heal a marriage here, but mine is in hospice care.

I think I'm in the wrong thread, at least. I know I'm in the wrong forum and damn sure the wrong board!

<small>[ August 26, 2003, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: terminator ]</small>

I just wanted to say, Never, that I have recently been in the same pain you're feeling. You will get better, and being here really helps. I felt as though the true love of my life was a stranger, and that the future was a black hole in front of me. Give yourself a chance to live through this...

With caring.

In my tired, numb, pained, searching, desperate, current state, I ask you all this:

Is there ever any logic to emotions? Is there a logical explanation for why some of us got married, or did we follow our hearts against all odds? Is there ever a logic to what people do when they are overcome by emotion?

This is what I'm trying to understand. None of it makes any sense to me except when I push logic aside and see that people who do this to their spouse are overcome with some kind of emotion.

Is that any easier to bear? That my husband was so overcome with emotion for another that he stopped wondering how this might hurt me or his family?

I have always been an avid reader. History is filled with stories of heartbreak, betrayal and passion. Did anyone ever try to explain it logically, or is it always called the passion of the heart?

I understand the fog now, but I am sorry that it isn't helping me to understand or to feel better. The only thing I understand right now is that my husband became emotional for another woman, lied to me, shared deep parts of himself with her, never gave me that chance, and that even today he has not called me begging me to take him back home.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think I'm in the wrong thread, at least. I know I'm in the wrong forum and damn sure the wrong board!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, wrong board, wrong thread. And before I read your last post about what you have been dealing with, I had a Post-It on the VDT that said "let it go, let it go..." about responding to any other posters on the JFO board that might hurt the walking wounded with talk contrary to what might give them first-aid in their fresh pain.

Now you might not give a ratz-a$$ about what I think, and rightly so! The history you just revealed tugged at my snarly heart. Move your dialogue to GQII and have at it. There are posters there that could benefit from your experience and visa versa.

Please.