It has often been said that someone who pushes their sexual preferences and/or sexual acts on another person is not really trying to get sexual fulfillment, but really exerting power/control over the other.

Could this be said for a person who with holds sex from another person or a person who ignores another persons preferred manner for achieving SF?

Opinions, comments, rewording, scoffs, etc are all welcome.

thanx
Hypatia

<small>[ August 27, 2003, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: *Hypatia ]</small>

ooooo
lots of lurkers, but no posters.
"good morning lurkers" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
hmmmm......

feel free to comment even if you do not agree.

Hm. Sexual energy is inherently powerful, it seems to me. Any exchange of that energy, and any negotiation for the exchange of that energy, has the potential to be powerfully good, powerfully bad, or just powerful.

More and more, I think of this as the reason for the strength of our societal taboos regarding sex. The energy inherent in sexual interactions is so strong that almost no one (perhaps no one at all) can fully predict the outcome of the release of that energy. It is, in its core, a chaotic act of creation that has intense random outcomes.

How does that relate to your question? Well, I guess I would say that any sexual interaction where an attempt to control another person occurs is, without question, a power play.

There are many communities that consider all sexual interactions to be about power exchanges. The BDSM community and the feminist community have both addressed the subject on an intellectual level, though from very different points of view. You might want to do some reading in that vein to further your thoughts on the question.

Withholding means to hold back, restrain, also to retain, refrain from granting, giving, or allowing-

And why does someone restrain themselves from something like having sex? That would be a good question that only the one doing the withholding may answer.

But there are lots of guesses. And I think that if you feel the need to control someone who is close to you and you are withholding sex, that sounds like a weak venture.

Thinking that in order to control them, you would need to give them sex in order to get them.

The only objective I can think of, is that the withholder is not sharing due to resentment, and a big lack of desire to engage in intimacy with someone that the withholder is unsettled with. I felt that way with my husband, and he with me. There was a great loss of intimacy that we once had and due to life circumstances along the way- distance, disparity, and anger built up between us. I was not supplying him with what he needed-(he was getting his needs filled at work) And he sure was not here for my needs. And thus, withholding.

I guess it is an opposite power ploy, done through resentment...my experience anyhow.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by J of HJK:
<strong>....There are many communities that consider all sexual interactions to be about power exchanges. The BDSM community and the feminist community have both addressed the subject on an intellectual level, though from very different points of view. You might want to do some reading in that vein to further your thoughts on the question.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">J,
Would you care to explain what BDSM is?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WFLOWER:
<strong>Withholding means to hold back, restrain, also to retain, refrain from granting, giving, or allowing-

And why does someone restrain themselves from something like having sex? That would be a good question that only the one doing the withholding may answer.</strong>

ah, to be able to get inside the mind of somewho how has w/held sex. Someone who has looked deep w/in themselves and can be hoonest w/themselves and others.

Ah there's the rub.

But there are lots of guesses. And I think that if you feel the need to control someone who is close to you and you are withholding sex, that sounds like a weak venture.

FOgGY STUFF
I suppose if, say in my case, an H were to feel as though they had no control in a marital situation, w/holding sex in any form wopuld be kind of a dig and a means to control the spouse.

I have also wondered if, in the case of a WS who is ultra foggy, whether or not w/holding sex is a conscious or subconscious way to keep the marriage in a place that they can validate their actions. My H has often said that he has never said no to my advances. BUT, he is full of subtle rejects towards me, whether they be conscious or subconcious.

Thinking that in order to control them, you would need to give them sex in order to get them.

This makes alot of sense to me.
It's like giving a dog treats when you are training them in order to keep them loyal and obedient.

The only objective I can think of, is that the withholder is not sharing due to resentment, and a big lack of desire to engage in intimacy with someone that the withholder is unsettled with. I felt that way with my husband, and he with me. There was a great loss of intimacy that we once had and due to life circumstances along the way- distance, disparity, and anger built up between us. I was not supplying him with what he needed-(he was getting his needs filled at work) And he sure was not here for my needs. And thus, withholding.

I have often wondered whether or not my H resents me for finding him out and revealing to him and to someothers the fact that he is not perfect.

Resentment is nasty stuff is stuffed down and not dealt w/.

<strong>I guess it is an opposite power ploy, done through resentment...my experience anyhow.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kinda like punishment?

hmmm....

Thank yo for the food for thought.
xo
H.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by *Hypatia:
<strong>It has often been said that someone who pushes their sexual preferences and/or sexual acts on another person is not really trying to get sexual fulfillment, but really exerting power/control over the other.

Could this be said for a person who with holds sex from another person or a person who ignores another persons preferred manner for achieving SF?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, definitely withholding can certainly be a power play.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Would you care to explain what BDSM is?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll just spell out the acronym for you: Bondage, Domination, Submission, and Masochism.

Further information as to WHAT it is will have to either come from your own research or someone who's much more knowledgeable than I am. I'm not a member of that community, and wouldn't presume to speak for 'em.

(For those who're offended by this whole thought, please remember the question is about the power of sexuality and what can, and cannot, be used in that vein. The BDSM community has refined such questions to a very high art, whether anyone else likes how they achieve that goal or not. If you ever find a really vivid description of "sub-space" you'll know what I mean.)

BDSM is a very valid point, J.
It is what the general population first thinks of when someone somehow mentions power/control in sexual situation, along w/ rape.
Not many people realize that w/holding sex and/or affectionis a form of power/control.

I thank you for mentioning BDSM.

<small>[ August 26, 2003, 12:19 PM: Message edited by: *Hypatia ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by *Hypatia:
<strong>

Could this be said for a person who with holds sex from another person or a person who ignores another persons preferred manner for achieving SF?

Hypatia</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES! Yes it can be said, because it's the truth. The person who does that is using sex as a WEAPON and it is WRONG!!
JMHO, Harold

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by J of HJK:
[QB] </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Would you care to explain what BDSM is?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll just spell out the acronym for you: Bondage, Domination, Submission, and Masochism.

QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How about just plain CRUELTY! Pain is not right, as sex/making love/hunka-chunka etc. is supposed to be pleasureable and fun.
JMHO, Harold

Intentional pain inflicted on another person, whether it be emotional or physical, whether or not it is "consentual" or not, is just plain wrong, in my personal opinion.

In the case of "consentual", that makes me wonder where the self esteem of the "victim" is to even think that they would enjoy or desrve the pain is.

<small>[ August 27, 2003, 05:48 AM: Message edited by: *Hypatia ]</small>

Do you feel that the w/holdiong of sex and/or SF is usually more conscious or subconscious in the cases when power/control come into play.

Why do you feel this way?

Unless you are forced, power/control from another person is an illusion for nobody can stop you from staying with such 'controlling' person if you don't want to.

Dear Hypatia,
Yes, I believe it is a definite measure of control. I see it played out in my M all the time.
My H knows I have a need for SF and yet he refuses to meet the need. He also claims he never rejects me but it happens most every night. Sometimes subtly and other times a flat "no".
This is incredibly hurtful and I'm still begging God to help me deal with the rejection.
I'm not always sure of the reasons for his rejection of SF. I sure wish I understood it more. It does seem that he likes me to be in a position of neediness of him. This causes him to feel he still has the upper hand in the relationship. Anyhow, that's my take on SF refusal and control.

Very valid question, one tht does make a person think of times when the hormones just kicked in and sex was a matter of expirimentation and stage of growing up.

At some point in the early stages, I think alot of people engaged in sex as a feel good thing, some were what they thought in love and did have sex, but I do beleive the majority of people in their teens it is simply a act.

At this point in my life, being 50 and having been through several serious relationships in my life which I could describe as love, it made me think about the differance of the driving force between love and lust.

Love, well there was no better sex when that was involved, it was a total giving between two partners on a level not known in lust relationships. Lust relationships are the slam bam thank you mam nature.

I have not had sex for several months due to the situation in my marriage, is the drive there, more than you know. Will I engage in a act with someone to appease the sexual tension I feel now, NO, I think at this point it would only cause further confusion on my part since I have such a stron feeling at this point in my life between the relationship of love and sex.

I could write on this for awhile, this is just a clip of my thoughts on the subject, YES, sex is a definete power tool when placed in the hands of someone selfish enough to use it as such.

Ok- I'm putting my asbestos suit on to protect my own self-esteem here...

Leah 2 be </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> YES, sex is a definete power tool when placed in the hands of someone selfish enough to use it as such. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well- this was selfish old me.. I seriously didn't realize it at the time.. I wanted more of my now ws. I wanted more hugs, more intimiate talks, more things other than just sex.. When my pleas went ignored, I with held sex. Of course it didn't work. I've learned so much from this website. But at the time- I didn't understand how I was undermining my marriage.

I also withheld when I was so damn tired. 3 misscarriages(rolling hormones), then 2 births 22 months apart- but I was puking the entire 9 months of pregancy and holding down a very high stress career job. Now- none of this is my husbands fault.. But, I wanted more help around the house.. He didn't get it. I needed him to help me more, so I could sleep more.. I thought- hey- maybe if he doesn't get his sex, because I'm so tired from not getting any help, he'll finally get it. During this his resentment, mistrust and low self esteen built and built. I was too tired, too stupid and too selfish, too wound up in the baby and the pregnancy to even notice what I was doing to him. And No- he didn't "get it".. He started having the A when I was 8 months pregnant with the 2nd child.

So yes, I used it very imporperly as a power tool. And now, he uses it against me. We can't even begin to recover even though the A have stopped, as he will not let himself become intimate with me on any level. Not just SF, but conversation, interests, anything. Just cordial roommates bumping in the night.

So, I know I was wrong. Please don't beat me up any more than I already have beat myself up. I played a game of russian roulette, and the biggest loosers are my children... I have the feeling Dv will be in the future.
Ana

Anastasia remember the old MB mantra 'BOTH BS and WS are EQUALLY responsible for the bad state of the marriage, BUT ONLY the WS is responsible for chosing to have the A'.

If you've read Dr Harley's book 'Surviving An Affair' when Sue (the WW) returned to Jon (the BH) she too did not want to be intimate with him. What changed that? The application of the four rules for a succesful marriage with special emphasis on the rule of time. If BOTH of you let your duties as a parents and employees totally sabotage your time alone together, then there isn't much of a chance to fall in love again. So consider comitting at least 15 hours a week to time alone with each other.

Hi,

I was just thinking that w/holding sex could also be a bondage. Mostly on a WS's part.
If a WS has had sex w/ another, other than spouse, it causes such a bondage. It would make me think that if I tried having sex w/ the WS, that I was having sex w/ both WS and the other person he had sex with. WS has a part of OW/OM in them, due to their sexual act, do you know what I mean? I know what I mean. Therefore you may even see characteristics of the OM/OW in your WS.

It's like what the bible says "if one gives himself to a harlot, he becomes one with her"

Therefore when adultery is committed seperation happens spiritually between the two spouses, and the WS becomes one w/ the OM/OW in a bad way.
That is why WS's become so foggy. Some never come out of the fog. I believe only by God's grace, forgiveness and love can one come out of that fog.

Sent with Love, Ladysheep

Hypatia -

This topic touched a nerve for me, and I'm still trying to understand what happened in my M regarding sex. My WH claims that he had his first A b/c I withheld sex from him. Here's my take on it.

WH and I dated for 2 years, we were both 22 when I got pregnant. We decided to have the baby, and we got married. Our sex life was great before our S was born, no surprise there, but then, with all the new demands of parenthood, I sometimes didn't want sex when H did. I often felt like I'd given everything I had to S and couldn't bear another person demanding anything from me. It didn't matter to him, though, he kept pushing, finally telling me it was my "duty". I most often gave in, though the resentment was building.

This went on for several years and another child. I finally came to a place in my mind where I felt I was betraying myself and my husband for having sex when I didn't feel like it. I decided that I'd never have sex with him again if I wasn't into it 100%. I was being honest.

He kept pushing, which turned me off, and the cycle continued. Even when he "backed off" making advances, I could feel the tension from him toward me - he was angry. Unfortunately, sex became a power tool between us, he the agressor, me the defender. I will also add that, around 1994, H told me that he had been sexually molested by an uncle for 5 years when he was a child. I have subsequently learned that survivors of childhood sexual molestation have many issues in their live, especially control issues.

I will never understand why anyone wants sex with a person who isn't into it 100%. To me sex is a dance between 2 willing partners. If one doesn't want to dance today, well maybe tomorrow. I also think that sex, while a powerful human desire, is just that, a desire. It is not necessary to have sex in order to live, like breathing and eating are necessary to live. Sex is extra. Having said that, let me add that I enjoy sex, quality was never a problem, just quantity.

So, I don't know if my rambling has shed any light on the subject you brought up, but thanks for giving me the opportunity to put my thoughts out there. BTW, over on GQII, Mortarman is having problems with his FWW withholding sex, you can read about how they're dealing with it.

Lablady

Me BS 48
WH 48
M 25 yrs
S 25, D 23
OW 45 widow/co-worker
First A, PA, 1987, #2 EA 1989
#3 D-day July 2002
WH moves in w/OW New Year's Eve 2002
Plan B early Feb 2003
Very limited contact, most recent a phone call from WH 8/9/03 wanting to know if there's ever a chance we can have a relationship?
I re-stated terms of Plan B, end the A, waiting to hear back from WH.
Not sure what I want anymore