Any advice?

I’ve read everything on this site I can find but of course, my story has an unusual twist that makes it hard for me to glean a clear path from previous postings. Sorry for the really long post…

I was guilty of severely busting my marriage. Although I had legitimate concerns about my husband, I did everything described as a LB…I was on the verge, in fact told him, that I was leaving him in July. So technically, he engaged in the "affair" post-separation (declaration of anyhow), and it is self-destructive as is most of the other behaviour he’s doing right now…he has removed himself from any and all people capable of giving him reasonable advice and is pretending to family/friends that we’re fine…we are living in limbo because I’ve said nothing further ("don’t beg, don’t cry, don’t plead, just get on with your life and address the problems you were already experiencing in your marriage communication").

Details:
- I wanted split after trying to get H. into counselling for more than a year
- H. likely having mid-life crisis but could be alcoholic “personality” (ie. drinking is not out of control but shares lots of characteristics with alcoholics)
- only complaint H. has ever uttered against me is that I’m too angry at him, too critical, everything he does is wrong
- he’s right – I broke every LB in the book! And then some…
- after short separation/vacation, I finally worked through my intense and deep anger at him, realized I did still love the core him, read the MB website (it worked for my sister last year) and came back home wanting to try again in a caring model instead of a demand-based, doomed-to-failure model
- told H. how many mistakes I’d made, said so many things in anger, apologized for all the bad approaches I'd taken with him, making him the centre of my happiness instead of meeting his emotional needs (not put exactly that way but same basic principles). Asked him to try again, including rekindling a sexual relationship, so at least we could part on good terms, if not actually redicover our love for each other
- only to be told by H. that he doesn’t love me anymore, it hasn’t been good for years, everything I say about him is true (ie. drinking/anger problems) but he feels helpless to change, I’m generous and wonderful/nothing wrong with me, he’s just confused, doesn’t know what he wants, doesn’t know when (if) he’ll leave
- absolutely the most disturbing thing – he keeps rewriting our past history, negatively of course
- despite sending me an e-mail June 27 saying how much he loved me, please just give him the time away in order to get himself together (ie. face his fear of counselling), he now says he hasn’t loved me in a long time
- in the last two weeks, I’ve discovered he’s definitely having EA with my former friend – 17 of 50 logged phonecalls are from her. Since he saw me checking though, he erases e-mail, erases the phone log at business (on days he knows I’ll be there), he stays out most nights (albeit going to public events with her as part of a group), and one night I caught him lying – he didn’t sleep where he said he was
- won’t touch me, hardly looks me in the eye
- maintains they are just friends, knows I can’t stand her, she’s a loud, fat, manipulative drunk that uses people shamelessly (she had me fooled for quite a while)

I’ve made every effort to back off and give him space to think. I haven’t questioned him, given him total freedom to come and go as he wishes, been pleased to see him and engage his emotional needs, and made every effort towards completely looking after myself, the home and dogs (our kids).

My sense is that he’s conflicted but perhaps adjusting to a new me. Even if his EA has become a PA, the woman is quite unlikely to be seen as the love of his life, more likely a physical outlet for frustration (we haven’t had a sex life in a long time). And she could be exactly what he says…his “friend” (although I know she wouldn’t see it that way).

This is not your normal mid-life affair: she is not attractive and would be seen as a definite step down in his public world (people will laugh at him, and I’m sure he knows it, not to mention anyone who cares about us would be shocked, particularly as they tend to think of her as my friend not his)…I think this episode is more in line with the feelings of self destruction he has right now.

He’s been making efforts in the past few days, coming home, cooking meals, talking to me, looking me in the eye, even laughing…things are much better (less tension) but my problem is that I feel my silence is somehow contributing or condoning this affair. Should I approach him again, talking about the honesty issue and negotiate some sort of living agreement?

I don’t want to pressure him to end the affair, go for counselling or even talk about our relationship (which he’s sick of doing). I’d just rather show him that my anger is finally gone, work on being a better spouse to him and hopefully set the stage for some real relationship building in the future. I am not blameless in this at all which is why I can’t really follow the righteous path that seems to be the one most often counseled on this site. I guess I believe that I betrayed him just as he is betraying me.

Should I tell him I know he was lying? This is really the only “proof” I know and it’s pretty flimsy as proof of an affair. (I haven’t installed the spying software yet…)

Or leave it up to him to explain in his own time? Leave it to him to reveal that it is an affair?

Or really just leave him alone and stop being supportive? (ie. the 180 degree divorce busting list – I worry about this in my case because I think I have to do damage repair as he was ready to walk BEFORE he started the “affair”)

My doctor says wait and ride it out by looking after yourself and finding a new life…he will not leave you for this woman and in the meantime, you will have detached from the pain (many other tragedies in my life this year have left me in a desperately fragile state). The counselor I saw last week said kick him out immediately and get co-dependency counselling. I don’t believe it is that straightforward though.

Again, any advice?

And one other question: I’ve been avoiding anywhere public “they” go – should I stop doing this? Start showing up so at least they are uncomfortable? There is no point in talking to this woman…looking back, I have to say that she’s worked on this for a lot longer than I could have realized it. She’s stalked him carefully…and I let her in because I felt sorry for her! The number of times the 3 of us have done things together nauseates me now!!!

I hope someone will have some advice because this is just about killing me to see him surreptiously pack a pair of pants (gee, I guess he's not coming home tonight).

It's hard to keep any hope alive when he's being so dishonest. But maybe he really doesn't care...what do you do when your H has no remorse, and isn't interested in counselling?

However, I did read another post this morning from someone who's husband said the same things to her and there wasn't OW involved. In this case, it is at least an EA but does that make it any less problematic?

awed,

Your situation isn't that unusual. Usually when a marriage goes down the tubes some LB'ing has been going on.

I sort of chuckled reading your list </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
- only complaint H. has ever uttered against me is that I’m too angry at him, too critical, everything he does is wrong
- he’s right – I broke every LB in the book! And then some…</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you realize that your pretty much covered the waterfront with this one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Given what you have said I would suggest you go to plan A. You sort of have already. But, I would bet a lot of money he doesn't believe or trust your changes right now. In fact, some of his behavior might be a test.

I wouldn't doubt that he feels he has had enough, and while you describe the OW in less than flattering terms she is doing one thing that you didn't: accepting for who he is. I am sure he is enjoying that a lot.

I fully agree that this affair won't last. But, the real issue is if it ends will he want to come back. You might find it interesting to read an article here on "Why women leave men." by Harley. I say this because what you have done to your H and marriage is what men are often accused of, and many women have walk away affairs because of it.

I cannot say if this is what your H is thinking. I would be he is NOT thinking all that well right now. But, I do suspect right now he feels he has NOTHING to come back to. That is where plan A and what you have already done comes in. It gives the WS a chance to see that change IS possible. That LB's can be stopped, and that they are indeed wanted. Now you can still set boundaries while in plan A, but in your case they really need to be common sense boundaries.

I sort of got the impression that you had started divorce proceedings on/with him. If so have they been turned off? I would suggest that this would be a good thing to do.

There is a lot of healing that needs to go on and I suspect you know this will take some time, but it seems to me you have things pretty well figured out and you are doing the right thing. So have patience and give it time. I suspect that the real world will intrude on their EA.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks for the reply JL...I was beginning to think no one was out there!

I'm pleased you chuckled because this has been the most unbelievably painful 3 weeks of my life -- even though in the past 6 months alone, my dad died, dog's dying, major car accident, major illness...despite being strung together, none of these have whomped me like his announcement did.

In any case, I try to find humour in anything I can which makes the blackness recede a bit. So even giving humour feels good today.

I guess I'm not sure about Plan A (or perhaps just don't quite get it) because it seemed to involve giving up the OW...since until I find out differently, she's just a "friend" and as you point out he needed one after all the LBing I did. Therefore my demanding that he end all contact with her would mean he won't get to truly experience the new me since I expect he'd just leave at that point.

awed but not broken...

Forgot to answer your question...no D proceedings. I just said that formal separation was what I was going to do (and meant it, really). It was a bad situation...it sure helped to read this site although I wish I'd done it a year ago rather than badger him about counselling.

I kicked him out in Feb because after my dad died he kept yelling at me about things and I'd just had it! He's been a stressed guy for some time and takes things out on me whenever.

I said he could come back after a couple of weeks because he agreed to go to counselling. So I set a time limit (vacation), he didn't meet it, end of story (except that I discovered ending the M wasn't for me after all).

Before that day, he's never doubted our love, never stopped saying I love you...nothing. But I read today that the MLC goes for some time. I think he's been in it, not meeting my EN for a long time. I think I've slid into a depression and blamed him for my unhappiness. Bad communication followed...and now this.

Hindsight eh?

awed,

There is an OW in the picture right? Well, plan A has a variety of components. It's goal is to separate the WS from the OP, but it is done in this portion of the effort in several ways.

#1 thing is NO LB's. I think you got that one figured out.

#2 Let him see the changes you are making in yourself and your approach to things, this offers hope to him on two fronts. One, he won't have his indecresions (sp) thrown in his face all of the time (he can be forgiven). Two, that things can and will change. Now, for you #1 is probably difficult because you threw him out, and he found he liked not being yelled at, torn down, and generally LB'd. So he probably feels entitled to enjoy life, he won't care if you forgive him or not.

Later if Plan A works (and it works two ways: it sets the stage for plan B, or it can separate the OP from the WS either way it works) he might come home. Plan B is the step that follows if plan A does not bring about the separation from OW, but it should only follow a really good plan A. Again in your case this must be carefully considered because of the relief he feels not being LB'd all of the time, and the fact that you threw him out already.

You mentioned children I believe. Is he close to them? If so, work very hard at being a good mother to them. Make sure he sees them ALOT, give him every opportunity to see them. It is not right to USE your children, but they ARE a major connection between you two if you have them. You said family and I didn't know if that meant children.

I think your best bet is to become his "friend". I am very serious here. I don't think he is in an MLC at all. I think he has had enough and when he got thrown out, he said "fine I am out" and left. If you mention to him that you think he is in MLC, that is a "Disrespectful Judgement", DJ. Read about them on this site. They are very very damaging and are another form of LB. People don't like to be told what they are thinking especially if that ISN'T what they are thinking. So no DJ's right?

It is kind of useful that she is just his "friend". Why? Because he has no excuse to avoid you if you were to call him up to go to a movie or have some recreational time together. Do this, but NO relationship discussions, got it? Think about this very carefully. What would a friend do with him? What would a friend do with you? Then see if you can get him to do some activities with you, where it is not just conversation but active behavior. Something where the pressure is off, but you two are around each other.

Next stop and think. Is there anything you admire about him? Anything that you could compliment him on? Anything at all that you could say to him that was positive? He needs to hear these things from you. He has already heard about his failings from you, and I can assure you he remembers every time you have taken him down a peg for something. He probably sees you as someone to stay away from.

You need to show him that there is another side to you, that sees the good in him, and recognizes that he is basically a good man. I presume you do, since you are asking for help in rebuilding. Focus on those things, and when he does something for you, even opening a door, thank him. Thank him EVERY time.

Do you see where I am going with this? We are going to see if you can build a new relationship with him, based on friendship, positive reinforcement, and no LB's. The fact that he has a friend and he has not admitted anything else suggests that he will have a hard time turning you down for her at this point. She can be a strange asset for you, so don't say a bad thing about her. He will see the flaws soon enough if this works. He will need someone to compare the NEW you to and from your description she will do just fine. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

She is NOT the enemy, but she is the competition for his attention. So say nothing about her, but let him talk about her, in fact encourage him to talk about her. You will learn what he likes, what he doesn't like, what EN's she is meeting and how she is doing it. Don't get mad, and don't get hurt,you are playing this thing to WIN, not to see who has the touchiest feelings.

Do you see what I am suggesting? I hope so. I must go and get some work done, but please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

please click on the link in my signature line adn read the Plan A links. I think Plan A is not all that well explained on the site (though I do include a link to Harley's explanation), so I included a couple of posts by experienced contributors to the forum that I think clarify things quite a bit.

JL...I wrote another long reply a couple of weeks ago and then it vanished off the screen...I think I've figured out now that pressing the backspace key has this effect. Whatever, I couldn't get the ooomph up to re-type it all so it's been a while.

Here's what I have wanted to say to you....thank you thank you thank you thank you!!!!!

Your words of advice have been awesome. He's thawed a lot, looking me in the eyes again, truly engaging in conversation with me. He voluntarily calls me every day, several times a day. He reports on what he's doing (hey, I haven't asked). Whether or not that's because he's reporting temptations he's avoided or whether or not he's just sharing, who cares? He asked me out for dinner. I mentioned today that I missed having dimsum Sunday mornings and he said, well lets go have some soon. He asks what I'm up to (before...couldn't care less). He's home more nights than away now. He's back to caring for his pups. He makes us lovely dinners or buys takeout whenever he's here.

He doesn't really say anything about the changes in me but I can tell he's noticed. And he even complimented me on my new shirt last night (really has a lot more to do with noticing the model-thinness weight loss and "improved" physical appearance...guess this is the upside of living through tragedy?).

The only downside -- and I've come here many times over the past few weeks to try and maintain hope when I'm feeling blue -- is that the rollercoaster keeps on flying. Just 4 weeks ago I would have said coming home, making dinner, looking me in the eyes -- I'd be thrilled with that! Aren't we funny creatures? Now that I have those things, it hurts so much that much of our interactions are "normal" now but yet there's still this gaping hole between us -- none of the easy intimacy we've shared for 17 years, taken for granted. He still has a huge "don't touch me" barrier up, no hugs, no kisses goodbye. We don't talk about me or what I'm doing. We only discuss him and his interests.

BUT...he's actually used the word "us" instead of framing everyone as "me/mine"and "you/yours". And the OW's calls have increased...she's now up to 1 out of every 4 calls coming into a retail establishment. I suspect this means she's getting desperate and this could even end up pissing him off (he's not a phone guy at all). I NEVER call, don't ask, don't call...let him tell me what he wants, when he wants, and I just go about my business trying to detach from painful thoughts.

I want to post in the Plan A because I know I appreciated reading how things are going well for people instead of badly, but I thought I should respond to this thread in case anyone ever finds their way here again.

Listen to JL's advice because it works. It's hard to do but it works.

And JL -- I thank you from the bottom of my heart for being there at a crucial time when I needed a boost. May your life be filled with joy (or maybe just a great handicap?)...

Awed,

Wish I could take credit, but what you heard from me is what I have learned on this site, so it is the Harley's and the many many people that have posted here you should thank.

I am glad things are better. I suspect they will continue to improve as you become a better friend to your H. It is clear he loved you for a long time, so it was likely it was still there even when OW was in the picture.

You said something I thought I would respond too </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just 4 weeks ago I would have said coming home, making dinner, looking me in the eyes -- I'd be thrilled with that! Aren't we funny creatures? Now that I have those things, it hurts so much that much of our interactions are "normal" now but yet there's still this gaping hole between us -- none of the easy intimacy we've shared for 17 years, taken for granted.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why don't you tell him this. I mean exactly this. I suspect it would mean a lot to him to hear you say that you took things for granted and that you wished you hadn't. It would also mean a lot to him (he is a guy right? ) to hear that you miss the easy intimacy. Now, being a guy, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I must warn you, that you are probably thinking something a bit different than he is when you use the word "intimacy". But that can be discussed and done with a smile on your face. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He still has a huge "don't touch me" barrier up, no hugs, no kisses goodbye. We don't talk about me or what I'm doing. We only discuss him and his interests. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am guessing here but he fears getting to close to you. You know why he fears it??? Because he knows you can and do get to him, and that you especially the touch, the kisses, the hugs are his weak spot. He is smart enough to know that you could melt him like so much butter, if you get near him.

So I have a question for you. Do or did you realize how much power you have over him?? Do you see why he fears intimacy with you? You probably never realized it, but you held a lot of power over him, and if you had used it wisely you would have gotten anything you ever wanted from him. However, the power was not in the LB's, it was in his love for you and his desire for you.

This is what the OW realized. Now she is calling alot, and very likely LB'ing your H by doing so.

As for him discussing him and his activities rather than you, I don't have a good answer because I don't know you two. But, let me make a few guesses and you will have to determine the accuracy of them.

He could be talking about himself, because for the first time in a long time you are actually listening to him and he may have not felt heard before.

He could be avoiding talking about you because he is afraid of the pain he has caused you.

He could be avoiding talking about you because he doesn't want to be LB'd by the guilt trip you might lay on him.

He could be avoiding talking about you because that was the topic of discussion for a long time in the marriage.

He could be avoiding talking about you because he is still sort of on the fence, and he doesn't want to encourage or discourage you.

He could be avoinding talking about you because...

Do you see my point? There are a whole host of reasons for this, but I am guessing there is one or more tall poles in this tent.

What you want to do as his friend is talk about... HIM. You want him opening up, and getting more comfortable with you and telling you what he thinks, what he wants, how he feels. Most women complain that their H's never talk about themselves and never tell them what they are thinking. You have a different problem.

Awed, I could think of a whole bunch of things you could do to narrow the intimacy gap, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> and they would all require direct action by you and the risk of you getting rejected. But, if you looked at this as sort of breaking a skittish horse, you would realize the rejection is about fear and NOT you.

It could range from "Hey you, get over here and let me give you a friendly kiss." To doing something pretty seductive. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But, I do think touch, and no real pressure is probably a good thing. But, you can talk with him about it, and listen to what he says.

Just some thoughts.

God Bless,

JL

I realize your answers are firmly based in the Harley techniques as well as lots of collective wisdom JL but it is your personal style of writing that gives me clarity on many of the subtleties and nuances involved. I've read literally hundreds of posts over the past few weeks and have gained a lot of insights from your various posts, not just your answers to my questions here. So with all due respect to everyone who has made a difference in someone&#8217;s personal tragedy, I really am incredibly grateful that you found my path in the first place and took the time to answer me in such detail. Enough said on that...

And case in point, you are so right...I took my marriage for granted and am paying the price now.

Although admittedly the thought has crossed my traitorous mind, I have hardly dared admit to myself that the possible interpretation you've given for his keeping distance could be true. I find hope is a very dangerous emotion to have during this time. Better to have your small goals, meet them and feel good...this way, you feel up rather than spiraling into depression (please remember that I still have a lot of other stressful and sad events ongoing concurrently in my life).

Truthfully, I am not afraid of rejection at this point and the only fear I have is screwing up the gains I&#8217;ve already made. In fact, I'd love nothing better than to have the conversation you're suggesting with him, or to try direct ways to re-establish intimacy...but I thought I was not supposed to discuss the R in any way???

I've interpreted that to mean discussing anything I want, anything I need, anything I'm missing. Any conversation to do with feelings (unless he brings it up with me) and that even includes me talking about mistakes I've made in the past &#8211; such a mention made him angry just a couple of weeks ago because??? Who knows? (He said on several occasions that the "problem" is with him, but then other times he says he doesn't have a problem! Oy...mood swings).

I&#8217;ve also carefully avoided pushing him in any way -- calling, seeking affection, touching, etc. despite how unnatural it feels to me, and how much I would like to re-establish those little little touches that reinforce intimacy between people. Basically, trying to control or manipulate his reaction and/or timing of what happens next in this weird dance between us -- physically, spiritually, conversationally, emotionally. I have left it completely up to him to set the pace, tone and timing of our interactions.

For example, he said I should go see friends on the coast this fall -- clearly he's now made a commitment to remain living here (for the coming months at least), even though we have not discussed it as such at all, nor did I take this as a opening to do so. Interestingly enough, this was the last goal on my short-term goal list related to him. (ie. have him meet my eyes in conversation, be comfortable around me, give me security enough to go travelling). Now it is time for me to set new goals but I don't know what those should be at all...to some extent I feel because the next set of goals will be more along commitment lines (re-establishing physical intimacy for example), I'll just be pushing again.

In fact, I was thinking yesterday that maybe what I have to learn is NOT to push, to wait and let him take the lead. Since this time is all about me and what I can learn and change about myself, to make a new, improved me. I am a very forthright, honest, go-getter (as the counsellor described me) -- I don't deal well with complaining people because I don't like to do it myself. I prefer to analyze the problem, devise a solution and go for it, or decide there's nothing I can do, stop complaining and move on. You see the problem? I wanted him to be more like me. And I wanted to help him fix his problems, instead of just letting him vent. I took his anger so personally, felt it directed at me (which it often was).

My taker got very angry always being on the receiving end of anger, or with having all my help taken with no thanks or simply rejected without thought. Clearly, I am someone who needs to detach in order to deal with this. Why? Because he had his own ways of making me feel loved, very specially loved. And I didn't truly understand it until it was gone. I value this love and feel that now I can be a better partner in return simply by letting him be. And carrying on with my life along a parallel path. Detached with love.

I've learned, although I still have a ways to go. At this point though, I think it is a safe assumption that he'd have no interest in reading HNHN, doing MC or anything else structured towards improving the relationship together. So I figure, just keep on the path that seems to be working, even though I'd love nothing better than to try and give it a nudge.

I have to tell you very honestly...I have thought to myself: "I'll give you something to come home for!" He hasn't had that sexual excitement from me in a long time and of course it would make home a desirable place to be!!! But unless he shows interest, aren't I just trying to manipulate him into doing what I want? Building a closer bond with me, a shared physical space and love we used to have? I get so confused here between what's right to do (respect his space), what I need to do (detach) and what I want more than anything in the world right now (for us both to give a real relationship a shot before deciding it&#8217;s over).

And another very important point you raised: yes I most certainly realized the power I had over him. I used that power -- to make him give up hard alcohol for example. That's another reason why I am scared to engage that power unless it is welcome. Because I want it to be about he and I, not anything else. Just love...

On the other hand, there&#8217;s a lot of talk about pursuer and pursued in the relationship. Clearly I have been the pursued for most of our relationship, although I believe I became somewhat of a pursuer as I felt him withdrawing from me, but it was totally negative pursuit &#8211; anger, DJ, etc., This is why I have not tried contacting him or invading his space as part of Plan A &#8211; he came to associate my presence with anger/unhappiness, so now I let him choose when he wants me in his world. This wasn&#8217;t because he felt I wasn&#8217;t independent enough from him -- just not pleasant to be around!

But perhaps pursuing him on a physical level could also be part of the 180? To pursue but softly, on padded feet? Let him know that I&#8217;m interested if he is?

Or would that constitute not showing him the new, independent, getting-on-with-my-life me? And would it work against every gain I&#8217;ve worked so hard to achieve over the past few weeks?

Confusion abounds&#8230;
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Awed,

You asked lots of questions and I think we can remove some of your confusion, but it will take a long post and I need to get some work done today.

I will just say by way of a teaser, that MEN LOVE TO BE MANIPULATED. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Yup, we do. It is just that we like to know we are being manipulated. I'll explain later. It really isn't confusing at all. Honest.

JL

Awed,

Ok here goes. Some of what you said I am not sure I understood, but will try to address all that you asked.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Although admittedly the thought has crossed my traitorous mind, I have hardly dared admit to myself that the possible interpretation you've given for his keeping distance could be true. I find hope is a very dangerous emotion to have during this time. Better to have your small goals, meet them and feel good...this way, you feel up rather than spiraling into depression (please remember that I still have a lot of other stressful and sad events ongoing concurrently in my life).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hope is a GOOD thing. Optimism is even better. You see no matter how this turns out you will learn and grow from the experience. I know that it sounds like a snake bite is a good thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> But, really this is an OPPORTUNITY to grow. I never appreciated what I am telling you, until I read the story of K who posts here and has since the board was first formed.

His W had an affair, he tried plan A, it didn't work (actually it did but he didn't know it at the time), he went to plan B. One day he gets a call from W and he KNOWS it was bad news. It was! She was pregnant with OM's child. Interestingly, he had thought of this scenario,and after much consideration he decided that if it happened he would take it as an OPPORTUNITY to show his W how much he loved her. His youngest son is 4 now, and the apple of Dad's eye. Their marriage made it.

So when I say OPPORTUNITy I want you to really pay attention to that choice of words. OK?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Truthfully, I am not afraid of rejection at this point and the only fear I have is screwing up the gains I’ve already made. In fact, I'd love nothing better than to have the conversation you're suggesting with him, or to try direct ways to re-establish intimacy...but I thought I was not supposed to discuss the R in any way???</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">An R talk is different from expressing your new ways of seeing things, from expressing that you now appreciate many of the good things about him, from telling him you desire him. As I said before, he has heard enough about what you don't like about him, hearing that you see him differently is NOT an R talk, it is telling him how you see him.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I've interpreted that to mean discussing anything I want, anything I need, anything I'm missing. Any conversation to do with feelings (unless he brings it up with me) and that even includes me talking about mistakes I've made in the past – such a mention made him angry just a couple of weeks ago because??? Who knows? (He said on several occasions that the "problem" is with him, but then other times he says he doesn't have a problem! Oy...mood swings).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Awed, he is scared to death and he knows his choice of methods to address what was happening was wrong. Men are trained to accept responsibility for things that go wrong and it sounds as if he does. But, telling him of your new insights about yourself and how you see him is NOT an R talk. Talking about the interaction of you two in the past or future is an R talk.

Talking about feelings make men uneasy. They know they are ephemeral and change. And they have done their best to keep "feelings" under control. However, remembering somethings he has done well are "facts". So is telling him, that you see yourself in a different light now.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I’ve also carefully avoided pushing him in any way -- calling, seeking affection, touching, etc. despite how unnatural it feels to me, and how much I would like to re-establish those little little touches that reinforce intimacy between people. Basically, trying to control or manipulate his reaction and/or timing of what happens next in this weird dance between us -- physically, spiritually, conversationally, emotionally. I have left it completely up to him to set the pace, tone and timing of our interactions.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a good idea...sort of. Avoid pushing him, but don't avoid physical contact with him. That is my opinion. This is a fine line. You can allow him to set the pace, tone, and timing, but you should make it clear as to the outcome you would like. You can do this with touch. And yes you can manipulate him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I mentioned that men like to manipulated more often than not, IF they know they are. It is like a W saying that she really enjoyed dinner, and the flowers, and mentioning that he just might get "lucky" that night. it is manipulation or feedback, or whatever, but he gets the message. Flowers and a nice meal are rewarded. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> He is getting manipulated but he knows it. Especially if he is told this with a smile on her face, and some light touch to go with it.

Men ARE NOT as dumb as we act. WE do know what is going on, but since society wants us to be the aggressors in a relationship, we welcome manipulation because it shows the W cares enough to try and respond. I know I am not making this clear but it is a form of letting us know we are wanted.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

For example, he said I should go see friends on the coast this fall -- clearly he's now made a commitment to remain living here (for the coming months at least), even though we have not discussed it as such at all, nor did I take this as a opening to do so. Interestingly enough, this was the last goal on my short-term goal list related to him. (ie. have him meet my eyes in conversation, be comfortable around me, give me security enough to go travelling). Now it is time for me to set new goals but I don't know what those should be at all...to some extent I feel because the next set of goals will be more along commitment lines (re-establishing physical intimacy for example), I'll just be pushing again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It isn't pushing if you tell him. Confused?? Well let me explain. If you let him know what you would like in the future and how you would respond if you got it, then it isn't pushing. It is telling him where you are at and letting him make decisions. You cannot expect him to be a mindreader. I won't go into my mindreading speech unless you want me to, but consider this. He left for a reason. What was that reason? He was tired of what was going on, and I will bet dollars to donuts, that he felt you did NOT love him any more. Whether he was right or wrong is not relavent.

So, he does need to know that he is loved and wanted, but that is not a relationship talk nor is it pushing him. It is saying "my door is open, I have made some mistakes, but I do love you and would like to have a good marriage to you". It is what plan A is about. Opening the door and trying to separate the WS from the OP.

So don't expect him to read your mind, guide him, but let him chose the path.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

In fact, I was thinking yesterday that maybe what I have to learn is NOT to push, to wait and let him take the lead. Since this time is all about me and what I can learn and change about myself, to make a new, improved me. I am a very forthright, honest, go-getter (as the counsellor described me) -- I don't deal well with complaining people because I don't like to do it myself. I prefer to analyze the problem, devise a solution and go for it, or decide there's nothing I can do, stop complaining and move on. You see the problem? I wanted him to be more like me. And I wanted to help him fix his problems, instead of just letting him vent. I took his anger so personally, felt it directed at me (which it often was).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh man! Have I mentioned "disrespectful judgements" to you??? Please go read about them. You sound sooooo much like the sterotypical male, no offense. God us guys get into soooo much trouble with that approach. This whole site is dedicated to us guys acting like that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> If you want him to open up, then you need to differentiate between whinning and expressing feelings. You need to understand that some people need to talk about their problems but they don't need help solving them. This is just so funny. Me lecturing a woman for acting like a male. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Oh Well, the next thing I need to say, is that if he was just like you, you would hate him. You could work with him, but your life and your sex life would be really really boring. You need to see that you can enjoy his way of approaching things, take some comfort and even humor in how he does things.

But, you also need to understand that talking about how you feel is not whinning. I don't want to tell you how long it took me to get this through my skull.

Now, why was he angry? Let me point out to you that anger is a secondary emotion and is usually driven by fear, pain, guilt, insecurity, etc. Why was he angry, that is important for you to understand. And if you look at anger as a secondary emotion you will learn not to take it so personally. Easier said that done, but often the anger is not really directed at us, but we are sort of convenient. Often when I express frustration with something my W thinks I am angry at her. I am not. Do you see what I mean??
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

My taker got very angry always being on the receiving end of anger, or with having all my help taken with no thanks or simply rejected without thought. Clearly, I am someone who needs to detach in order to deal with this. Why? Because he had his own ways of making me feel loved, very specially loved. And I didn't truly understand it until it was gone. I value this love and feel that now I can be a better partner in return simply by letting him be. And carrying on with my life along a parallel path. Detached with love.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I came to this site precisely because I didn't see that my W loved me. She wasn't showing me her love in the way I wanted or expected to see it. It is a hard lesson to learn. One the other hand, if you read His Needs Her Needs, Harley's thesis is that we often meet needs as we would like them met, which does not satisfy our spouse. So all of the work goes unnoticed, and the surprise an affair or simply a breakup of the marriage, and the one spouse says "I always love you and showed you I did", and the other is saying " no you didn't you never did ta da, ta da..." You get the picture.

Solution communications and perhaps a tour through HNHN. but that will come later.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I've learned, although I still have a ways to go. At this point though, I think it is a safe assumption that he'd have no interest in reading HNHN, doing MC or anything else structured towards improving the relationship together. So I figure, just keep on the path that seems to be working, even though I'd love nothing better than to try and give it a nudge.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No fair educating him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> Sorry he has to come to this himself. I think he might be ready once your relationship evolves a bit further. You need to read HNHN and fill out the questionaire as if you were him and see what you might do. It can be an informative exercise. You will learn what you don't know, and what you do know about him.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I have to tell you very honestly...I have thought to myself: "I'll give you something to come home for!" He hasn't had that sexual excitement from me in a long time and of course it would make home a desirable place to be!!! But unless he shows interest, aren't I just trying to manipulate him into doing what I want? Building a closer bond with me, a shared physical space and love we used to have? I get so confused here between what's right to do (respect his space), what I need to do (detach) and what I want more than anything in the world right now (for us both to give a real relationship a shot before deciding it’s over).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is only confusing if you let it be. Do you recall my comments about manipulations? Well, you can manipulate him AND detach at the same time. The point is that you could have great sex, and then get up the next morning and KNOW you can deal with whatever mood he is in. You can stand back and see why he may be confused, or gunshy, or angry, or so conflicted (love, fear) that he cannot not really function correctly, and you can enjoy any or all of the responses. that is detachment, it is not lack of feelings it is putting things into perspective.

If you took him to bed tonight and did things to him you have never done, just really got to him, don't you think he would be confused. Don't you think he might not know how to act tomorrow? Of course you would, so no matter how he responded, you would not be hurt because you understand he is messed up by what you did to him, he is confused, and you have "detached" enough to know it and understand it. You just might not get a deeply felt 'I love you', and you are detached and understand enough to not let it bother you.

Do you see what I am talking about? As for manipulating him, you bet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> In fact the next morning, you could look him and say there is more where that came from big boy, and walk away, smiling of course. He knows he is being manipulated, but he also knows you do want him in your life. Humor,and blantant manipulation are NOT bad things. It is in fact honest. If he asked are you trying to seduce me? The answer is; Yup got a proble with that? Men appreciate the frontal assault as long as they know there is a path to retreat without losing face and looking weak.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

And another very important point you raised: yes I most certainly realized the power I had over him. I used that power -- to make him give up hard alcohol for example. That's another reason why I am scared to engage that power unless it is welcome. Because I want it to be about he and I, not anything else. Just love...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very delicate issue here. But let me offer for your consideration, that if you have power and never use it, do you have power? You don't understand the power you have your H gave you. You have none unless he wants you to have it. He did what he did for you because he loved you and wanted you more than hard alcohol. If he does not love you, you have no power. So if you try to use it, and it works, then it is "Just love..."

I think one of the hardest things to understand in a relationship is the balance of power and how it is given, shared, and used/ or abused. Power only exists as long as someone gives it to you. And often the person that seems the strongest is actually weakest. Have you ever seen a couple that seemed really miss matched with regard to power?? It often is not what it seems. The weak appearing person often has as much if not more power than the strong appearing person. I would suggest to you that the woman's movement never understood this, and that is why many of their claims of victimhood are not as persuasive as they believe them to be. Woman have had enormous power in the family, and many other places, but it is NOT the obvious sort that is associated with men.

My father, who was a very dominate person, always claimed that it looked like he ran the family because my mother wanted it that way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So think long and hard about this. If it is given, then it is expected to be used, but how you use it is of prime importance.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

On the other hand, there’s a lot of talk about pursuer and pursued in the relationship. Clearly I have been the pursued for most of our relationship, although I believe I became somewhat of a pursuer as I felt him withdrawing from me, but it was totally negative pursuit – anger, DJ, etc., This is why I have not tried contacting him or invading his space as part of Plan A – he came to associate my presence with anger/unhappiness, so now I let him choose when he wants me in his world. This wasn’t because he felt I wasn’t independent enough from him -- just not pleasant to be around!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very good point and well thought out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
But perhaps pursuing him on a physical level could also be part of the 180? To pursue but softly, on padded feet? Let him know that I’m interested if he is?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I like how you think Awed.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Or would that constitute not showing him the new, independent, getting-on-with-my-life me? And would it work against every gain I’ve worked so hard to achieve over the past few weeks?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't think so, plus it won't hurt to try and gain information. No need to guess about some of this, you could simply ask him. Often that works better than guessing.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Confusion abounds… </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not as much as you think. Some uncertainty about the best approach, but let's keep this simple. If you love him, he needs to know it. If there are things about him you admire, he needs to know it. If you want this marriage on a new plane and without the LB's, he needs to know it. Sometimes you can show him, no LB's is big, but sometimes you need to tell him AND show him.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

You've given me lots of stuff to think about...

Obviously I can't include all details/nuances no matter how incredibly long my posts already are <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ...but there's one other angle that I forgot to mention before. Someone else is living here in the interim -- in fact, H. gives him a ride home and to work everyday. So we are almost never alone which complicates everything and may be why I feel hard-pressed to take another positive step forward.

And last Saturday night when I was alone for a change, H. did not come home (although he called several times and first thing the next morning). He told me at 8 that he'd "already had too much to drink even if I wanted to come home" -- I thought this was an interesting phrase to use but just let it go (he's drunk, and we're only supposed to believe 50% of what we hear anyway, etc.). Anyhow, he spent the evening getting drunk with OW (remember please she's an alkie) and her ex (also an alkie).

Now this could fit in the "scared to be around me" theory but it could also fit just as easily in the "doesn't want a real relationship but happy to co-exist as roommates" scenario. Or it could simply be that he&#8217;d just had too much to drink, wasn&#8217;t going to drive and much of this MLC behaviour is wrapped around drinking like a dumb teenager (drinking has been a major sore point between us for the past few years).

Regardless, to implement the intimacy plan I'd need to actually orchestrate a time alone together. That too takes some thought, planning and can be upset at the last minute by H. bailing again.

H. has lots of his own issues to deal with...here's a quote from 2ofaKind yesterday that sums up how he's feeling. And this is not my interpretation but my H. own -- the quote nicely summarizes the points H. wrote to me in a letter last Feb. where he said he was going through a MLC &#8211; may I be forgiven for not having gotten outside help at that point in time!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A LOT of WS's from what I have seen - and I think you'll agree - were not happy and were more than likely having some real issues of esteem. Life is frustrating them, things are not going well, they feel like crap and they find some outlet for all of that frustration that is out of bounds, off limits - and they know it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, you're right -- in some ways, my H and I have experienced and played out a reversal of traditional male/female behaviours. For example, I am the major contributor to the household financially, and even provide monthly financial support for his business. But then again, if you read the Harley's description of relationship breakdown, ours certainly happened along the gender lines they describe (man compartmentalizing, woman's needs not being met followed by nagging/LB'ing behaviour). Or the Divorce Busters story of woman describing needs not met, and H describing how he tries to meet them but only gets nagging, etc, again it fits us exactly (except the actual issues differ as does the friendly advice given by others).

Remember: I left him first. It was a done deal, heart-hardened over at least 18 months, etc. It&#8217;s just that having done so, then after reading this web-site, I realized (without having used the exit affair I contemplated having 3 years ago) that I truly did love this man. I had not been meeting his needs because I was so consumed with whether or not he met mine. And I was no longer lovable to him. (Others find me so&#8230;which is a wonderful feeling, although I still feel hollow without H. &#8211; just proves my point).

While my family understood my real concern about H and why I&#8217;d done what I had, they did not advise divorce -- they are the ones who suggested that H. loved me so much and it was worth trying again to see if the marriage could work, despite his adamant refusal to get MC or work on communication problems.

Problem: H. won't tell his family. Or discuss the R. with anyone other than OW. (Bet she's not giving him the same advice as my family!)

In the meantime, I will try to fully absorb the suggestions you&#8217;ve given me and figure out a way to put things into practice. And also try to ensure that I am ready to deal with the potential fallout...both inside myself and with him.

Awed,

It is a very good idea to think about what I said before doing anything. As you well know, I don't truely know your situation and therefore can only offer my best guess.

It does seem to me that your living arrangements might need to change if you two are going to reestablish an intimate marriage. Also, I should point out that Harley and other professional MC won't attempt to reconcile a marriage IF there is another addiction going on: drugs, alcohol, etc. So if your H's drinking is a major issue, then this hurdle must be addressed by him as well.

It does sound tough, but I would suggest that you hang in there and talk with your H about your feelings and what you need from him. One thing I have noticed and yes, even in myself, is that it helps to be needed. Your H may in fact feel that you don't need him. But, clearly you do, or the divorce would have happened. He needs to hear this. He needs to hear that your enjoyment of life depends on him. And of course he needs to find out he can really enjoy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> life with you in it.

Must go, do your thinking and let me know what you do decide. Also let me know if you feel what I am telling you won't work. I can take it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> so let me know.

God Bless,

JL

To Just learning:

I don’t mean to “highjack” this thread but what you write really helps me understand my husband so much better. I wonder if you have any suggestions for my “issues”? I can change threads if that’s easier but this one really reminded so much of my circumstances.

I came home in June and he wanted to leave. He stated he didn’t like our lifestyle (we lived over an hour away from his job because of my job) and the commute was getting to him. I suggested we comprise and live in-between his work but still have enough land for me to do my job. A first he thought about it but then said no he wanted to get away from all the animals. Well, as things progressed he ended up renting a furnished apartment. At first, I was going up there once or twice a week and he came down once a week. Things were going as well as can be expected. He called 2 or 3 times a day and said ILY every once in awhile.

After coming to MB I realized that I was really bad at LB’ing and I thought I had put a lot of effort in trying to stop. I think that was one of the reasons things were improving. Then all the sudden we ended up seeing each other less and less. I started getting upset (which he sees as a LB no matter how calm I try to stay) and so for the last few days we aren’t even talking on the phone (but he does email and connect that way). I forgot to add he’s a workaholic and has just gotten a partnership in a new job that he always wanted. I think that he feels he can’t worry about me (and he is very much of that nature to worry) and the job. So, for now the job gets top billing and I get what’s left over (and that’s not much). There are times I feel he truly loves me but is afraid we will go back to “what we were” and other times I think he just gets in touch with me because of guilt. Also, he is "the right age" for a MLC.

Thanks for any input,

Bestfriends3

Hey JL -- do you have time for more reading? New development (at least to me) and now I am feeling like it's tough to keep going again. And confused whether or not I should keep going. And exactly where it is I'm going.

Hard night...

I guess that's a bit cryptic isn't it (depression makes me far less loquacious than usual).

All I meant was that I feel like I'm unfairly using up a lot of your time and energy which was underscored by the last poster seeking your advice. So I figures I'd check in before I write a bunch more details about something I find so humiliating to write about.

Specifically my question relates to advice I found from TMCM while in my 6 hour reading marathon here again today...the lying is just so very hard to contend with and this seemed like it was an excellent approach to use.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also vote for confronting your W but NOT with the evidence you have but with the following:

'You know that I love you with every fiber of my being but I need you to be absolutely honest with me for it would hurt me deeply if I find out the truth from someone else, are you in love with another man?'

The point in this is that affairs are born out of and rely on dishonesty, and her acknowledgement of her affair would be a huge step forward in radical honesty. Not only that, but this would be a great opportunity for you to show her what you are made of by not punishing her for being honest with you. And you could even rack up extra love points if you empathize with her by validating her feelings that you would probably feel the same way if the roles were reversed (this is NOT condoning her affair) and she just might surprise you by reciprocating your empathy. By creating an emotionally safe environment for her to express to you her most deepest thoughts and feelings without being punished by you for doing so, you will rightfully be gaining back from the OM your role as your wife's closest confidant. So avoid ALL love busters (angry outbursts, selfish demands, disrespectful judgements, dishonesty, annoying habits and independent behavior) against your wife ASAP.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But am I going down the wrong path at a crucial juncture? Is it just too esrly for a confrontation?

I was at a wedding yesterday and couldn't sing the hymns, couldn't even mouth the responses, had so much trouble holding myself together. I thought I'd sob aloud during those vows...wow it was one of the hardest challenges yet. There's acceptable social crying at a wedding and then there's lying on the floor pounding your fists and screaming. Or (far more likely in my case) racing out of the church and simply giving up on any more public pretence.

Awed,

Of course you can ask questions. IF you do, other people are liable to answer as well, and that is good.

So ask away. I am confused by your most recent post though, so could you explain to me what your issue and question is? I am sort of slow these days. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

God Bless,

JL

BestFriends,

Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread I don't want to hijack Awed's. But, MLC time is when people often ask themselves: "Is this all there is?"

If the answer is yes, then they start looking for other things. Your living arrangement is NOT GOOD. A new job with more money and responsibility is often a consequence of hard work earlier, and entre' into even more demanding times. So it is not surprising that it is his top priority.

Here is the problem as I see it. You live an hour away, so it is two ours for him to come and go to your place. Your living requirements require land so in theory as you suggested the communte could be cut to an hour each day for him, and then an hour each day for you.

His apartment makes sense, BUT it is a real problem in my mind. Why? He is vulnerable. Pure and simple he is vulnerable. He will work his A$$ off, and then come home to an empty apartment. Eventually, some woman at work will decide he might be worth getting to know, and her work hours will coincide with his. She might find out he doesn't cook, doesn't like to cook, or whatever, and invite him over for dinner. They could talk about business and relax.

Nothing sinister here, right? But, you know and I know that attachments once made can lead to NEEDs being filled. So he is vulnerable. So are you. You now live alone many days a week and you will want company and someone to talk to. Who is that going to be?

Finally, I cannot speak for women, but I know that in the early 40's men change abit. The start to value emotions and emotional connections. They start to need more emotional support. Perhaps it is part of the "is this all there is? " question, I don't know. Your choice to live where you do is based on your animals ( I am assuming this isn't your line of work, but your major hobby and source of recreation). If that assumption is true, then you two don't share any recreational time, so what time he gets off, isn't shared with you anyway.

So, in his mind, I would guess that he will eventually come to the conclusion that you perfer your animals and your hobby over him. If he reaches that conclusion, your marriage is in danger. You can see this, because you have already stated to me, you feel his work is coming first. AND IT BOTHERS YOU. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

So it seems to me something has to change and since I don't know you two, it is unlikely that I could run your life as you would run it yourself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I would strongly recommend that you and your H have a long talk about goals, recreation (it really should be shared), and where your lives are leading.

I do think changes are needed, and for that reason I would strongly recommend that you read the articles here on the Policy of Joint Agreement, POJA.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

JL

I&#8217;m feeling calmer today and able to write about my life without massive humiliation <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> &#8230;I know this is a public board and perhaps the thought of OW lurking and taking pleasure in reading gory details put me off the other day! Who knows&#8230;

My question is: Do I confront?

Without actually finding them in bed together, I believe the PA is confirmed. H. said he was staying in town the other night after music show but things didn't add up. So I went in at 7 the next morning, H not there -- found his car at OW&#8217;s house. Then he calls me at 9:10 (I didn&#8217;t ask him to!) -- said he played new video game late into night and then since 7 that morning again. Why lie at this point unless it's a PA? I don't think I can rationalize and say perhaps he's only "sleeping over" there (or somewhere else) as a possible excuse anymore.

A friend told me that OW said last spring that they were &#8220;absolutely enamored&#8221; with each other, had a physical relationship and that she expected him to tell me he was leaving me for her. This was long before I suspected anything and certainly he was still coming home all the time then, touching me etc. and expressing &#8220;I love you&#8217;s regularly&#8221; &#8211; it was long before he delivered the &#8220;speech&#8221; to me (mid-August).

But the OW is a predator so everything she says has to be taken with a grain of salt &#8211; she&#8217;s had these fantasy &#8220;relationships&#8221; with men before, at least 4 of our single friends in the last 2 years. As my friend puts it &#8211; they are terrified of her and still look like deer caught in the headlights if she gets too close to them.

The point? Should I be confronting H about the A now or still keep everything on a friendly basis and wait it out?

I&#8217;ll post again on a separate thread but the other biggie this has raised for me is renewed sexual contact means STD-risk &#8211; I&#8217;d be sleeping with every partner the slut has <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> (and she has had several that I&#8217;m aware of). Low risk but still&#8230;

As per our previous discussions, I&#8217;ve continued engaging in small touches which he doesn&#8217;t seem to mind &#8211; ruffling his hair, rubbing his back, calling him sweetie. But surely the whole mind-set we&#8217;ve been discussing &#8211; that he doesn&#8217;t want me touching him because he&#8217;s worried that he&#8217;s vulnerable to my touch &#8211; is no longer true? Isn&#8217;t it probable that the real reason he doesn&#8217;t want me touching him is because he&#8217;s given himself physically to someone else and feels he would be &#8220;unfaithful&#8221;? Surely my touch is simply unwanted at this time and I should desist?

He&#8217;s not a sleaze, like some I read about here &#8211; I can guarantee you there will be NO further revelations of multiple affairs, cyber-porn, etc. He&#8217;s just extremely unhappy and I made matters a lot worse. He&#8217;s got serious issues to address and she&#8217;s encouraging him to drink away his life in oblivion with her which gives him a welcome escape at this precise point in time.

One of his friends told me bad stories are starting to spread about her influence on him, and people are beginning to openly state their dislike for her. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I&#8217;m sure people wonder what they&#8217;re up to or at least question the time spent together (she hangs on him like a leech) but what has been expressed so far is dislike for her, not condemnation of an affair.

Also his business partner says he&#8217;s showing irritation at her constant calls. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Perhaps this is a bit of disinformation on my H&#8217;s part, but he&#8217;s not usually like that. Rolling his eyes and huffing is his way of expressing irritation and his business partner knows him well enough to recognize the signs.

There&#8217;s a good chance this A. might be coming to a head, left on it&#8217;s own.

Besides which, I still don&#8217;t know if I&#8217;m in a strong enough position to challenge him on ANYTHING (although I liked the approach I mentioned in my last post from TMCM because it is exactly what I have wanted to say to him for some time now &#8211; the lies are almost impossible to live with, not the A itself.).

He&#8217;s had 7 weeks of absolutely no LBs from me, seen the friendship potential with me clearly, noticed the changes I&#8217;ve been making (from his own admission to me) and made a lot of progress himself in terms of dealing with me on a rational, non-angry, friendly way. He talks in terms of future with me albeit only in little soundbites. For example, that he won&#8217;t be opening the store on Sunday afternoons if there&#8217;s a snowday &#8211; if he&#8217;s living there not here, snowdays wouldn&#8217;t make any difference. Or when he says I should go away on holiday this fall (although my paranoid self says he just wants the house for the 2 of them to have every night in privacy!).

Things have gotten better between us and I&#8217;ve met my short term goals. Unfortunately, while I always knew a PA was possible, I never expected to hear that it is seen by him as a true &#8220;love&#8221; affair.

But this is still on her word only, and is not backed up by his actions. Why does he do everything in public with her &#8211; why doesn&#8217;t he just sneak off to be alone with her? The only time they are ever alone together are the wee hours of the morning after he&#8217;s been drinking. ALL other times are public. This doesn&#8217;t sound like a love affair, nor is it how he behaves in love &#8211; even when we weren&#8217;t &#8220;in love&#8221; anymore this past year, he always wanted to spend time alone with me. And when we were first together in honeymoon love, he couldn&#8217;t stand to be apart from me and called me (not vice versa!) all the time.

Call me pathetic but it is my intellect not my heart that thinks this way. My heart is broken and would like nothing better than to walk away completely at this point and focus 100% on healing. My intellect is the part that says things aren&#8217;t adding up to what the OW claims as reality.

Besides &#8211; if she did ask him to leave me back in the spring, he&#8217;s still here. I&#8217;ve been back for 7 weeks now. He&#8217;s gone from being cold and indifferent to carrying on an animated conversation with me in front of her. Her calls have increased in frequency, she&#8217;s becoming brasher in her actions&#8230;lots of evidence that the A is not going her way.

In addition, I don&#8217;t ask him to report on his whereabouts &#8211; he chooses to do so. Instead of lying around in bed together (or having a leisurely brunch or whatever), he&#8217;s up out of her house and calling me to report in first thing in the morning. He wasn&#8217;t doing this 5-6 weeks ago. And if he&#8217;s doing this to allay my suspicions, why does he bother keeping it a secret if he has nothing left to lose? (ie. is planning on leaving, doesn&#8217;t love me or value our relationship, etc.)

I know if this gets out in public people will think I&#8217;m nuts for standing by him -- he has broken his vow to honor me and forsake all others. But I broke my vow to love and cherish him. He shouldn&#8217;t have entered into an A. but I was leaving him. The hurt I feel by the withdrawal of his love is practically killing me &#8211; so how do I think he felt when I screamed that I was leaving him, left him feeling worthless and abandoned by the love of his life? Perhaps severely wounded? This is sarcasm&#8230;I KNOW it hurt him, I just didn&#8217;t care at the time&#8230;kind of like he feels now although I never engaged in self-destructive behaviour concurrently.

I was going to say &#8211; and I didn&#8217;t piss other people off the way he is but even there, I think I did. I suspect people were bothered by the way I treated my H. although they might be more willing to forgive me because I was clearly unhappy whereas the A may be much harder for people to excuse.

In any case, that&#8217;s why in his current fog, I want to give him a chance at experiencing a peaceful calm home environment, to have a wife who supports him instead of nags him about his problems, and encourages him by example in solutions (hope, positive change, love over despair).

Re: alcohol...(your previous post) he's drinking again and the volume is high. This is the influence of OW and the current bunch of friends he's hanging out with -- it's another part of the impulse-disorder that I have concluded is part of the MLC. I agree that this behaviour has to stop or we can't begin recovery. But I don&#8217;t believe alcohol is his root problem, nor has his drinking caused an incident. But it is a pressure valve and likely an anaesthetizer to pain/confusion/thought.

Isn't plan A/B supposed to create an atmosphere/environment that makes recovery more likely? He has to want to change or no recovery WILL happen in this marriage. I believe Plan A/B is most likely to make positive possibilities/negative consequences understood by him. My eventual bottom line is that he must stop drinking until he sorts out his life/depression/whatever and I know any counselling will back me up in this.

But I&#8217;d like to help him get there through love not anger. Besides, anger didn&#8217;t work anyhow&#8230;