The battle over my husband's work-related social life has been dragging on for over three years, with at least a 10-year history before that of "inappropriate friendships" with his favorite female co-workers. Most of the other MB posters will not even respond to me anymore, because they're so tired of seeing the same old story.

However, my husband did admit to me last night that he really is okay with the idea of his company's "No Spouses Allowed At Social Occasions" policy. It has all but destroyed our marriage, but has no desire to challenge or change it even though he is a senior manager and certainly could if he wanted to.

Thinks this policy is appropriate and normal. Doesn't see what the problem is. Says the boundaries are up now and he "doesn't do that stuff anymore," so I should not be worried.

If he just can't get out of some work-related social event, he WILL go without me and has no problem with this. Says he will give me a "99%" commitment on not going to things that would upset me, but reserves the right to go things when "necessary."

This from a man who spent many years lying to me about exactly these types of events because he was really hooking up with his favorite female co-workers while there, sometimes driving them in our car and often going out alone with them. He lied, he says, because this was all "normal work behavior" and he "didn't want to have to fight with me."

This from a man who could find no possible way to tell me in advance about the off-site birthday party his co-workers threw for him at a very nice restaurant just last week. He did admit last night that he thought it was fine that I was not there. He had no problem with that at all. It was a work event, so no, why would it occur to him to invite me? I and our son had taken him out for his birthday over the weekend, so now it was his co-workers's turn to take him out.

He truly believes he can still go out and socialize with these people whenever he thinks he should, even with his history. He just doesn't want to understand why that might be a problem for *me.* He truly believes it is normal and appropriate to separate your spouse from work-related social activities, and is more than happy to go out with those people and have a fine time with them while I am somewhere else.

He doesn't need me or want me there at all. I had hoped he would, but he just doesn't. His co-workers are all he needs and he's much happier not having me there when he's with them.

Well, I had to try, didn't I?

Yes, I did thank him for his honesty. And I meant it. Honesty was my #1 EN and his championship-level bullsh*t was literally driving me insane. At least he did own up to how he really feels. At least I can be certain of what I am dealing with.

I know. I know. Please, just let me vent. I don't have anyone else to talk to about this.

Wow pb! This is a sad situation to be in. Always feeling like you are 2nd best. I don't know your story, but you must be a courageous woman to continue to try. No one knows when it is enough except yourself. That is why I DO NOT discuss my infidelity situation except when I post here. No one knows your situation without walking in your shoes and the worst person to be around is one of judgment.

I have to say that your H sounds extremely selfish, but you probably have already heard that enough. It's a matter of what your boundaries are and what you can live with. Is this the M that you want? Do you want to continue the nightmares and stomache aches about the "what ifs?".

(((psycho))) - big hug!

Thanks for the kind words, OUC.

*** . . . but you must be a courageous woman to continue to try.***

Well, as I often say, "Bravery and stupidity are often confused . . . "

bumping up for Cerri

If you have had this same problem so often and so long that people here on this board will no longer talk to you about it.. My first question is WHY are you still dealing with this? Why not Plan B or Divorce? Plan A is not intended to be a lifestle, and there is only so much that one person can do if the other just refuses to co-operate. It takes two to make a recovery, and only one to screw it up no matter how much the other martyrs themselves trying. It sounds like you could be there. Something to think about.

Sometimes people get hooked on the adrenaline of bad relationships, but it is no less harmfull to the soul than a heroine addiction is harmful to the body. Take care of you or no one else will.

Just my 2 1/2 cents. Take it or leave it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Best of luck, this is never easy.

Call Cerri. Enough is enough. I can't think of one good reason why a wife can't go to her husband's b-day party with co-workers. None. And it's mean and hurtful to you. Almost deliberately so.

Is the sauce for the gander good for the goose too? What if you and your girlfriends and some guy friends went out and left him home??? This WILL NOT work as a wake up call, but I wanted to gage where your husband's head was.

bumping up for Cerri

Hello!!!! I'm back!!! I survived the deluge of email that piled up while I was knocked offline.

Reading and thinking......

C <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Howdy MB outcast... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

The battle over my husband's work-related social life has been dragging on for over three years, with at least a 10-year history before that of "inappropriate friendships" with his favorite female co-workers

Hmmmm.... and what is it your H does? What kind of friendships? How did they start? And what have you done so far?

Most of the other MB posters will not even respond to me anymore, because they're so tired of seeing the same old story.

LOL well then, I guess the pressure is on to do something different, isn't it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

However, my husband did admit to me last night that he really is okay with the idea of his company's "No Spouses Allowed At Social Occasions" policy.

Yes well.... that may be the case. But marriage takes two and if YOU aren't ok with it then something needs to give.

It has all but destroyed our marriage, but has no desire to challenge or change it even though he is a senior manager and certainly could if he wanted to.

No desire, not the issue. No real motivation... that's the problem. It works for him because no one makes it uncomfortable. There are no consequences that give him pause to make changes.

Thinks this policy is appropriate and normal. Doesn't see what the problem is. Says the boundaries are up now and he "doesn't do that stuff anymore," so I should not be worried.

He can think and believe whatever he wants. But his ACTIONS need to take your feelings into account. Personally, I have no issue with all kinds of things that would make my hubby faint dead away... so if I want to be happily and successfully married I need to take his feelings into account and not do the things that he's not ok with. It's just being considerate.

If he just can't get out of some work-related social event, he WILL go without me and has no problem with this. Says he will give me a "99%" commitment on not going to things that would upset me, but reserves the right to go things when "necessary."

There's no such thing as a "necessary" work related social event. The two are mutually exclusive. And, as you say, if it was made to be important enough to him then he could make the change that would allow you to attend. It's just a way of getting what he wants and looking innocent at the same time.

This from a man who spent many years lying to me about exactly these types of events because he was really hooking up with his favorite female co-workers while there, sometimes driving them in our car and often going out alone with them. He lied, he says, because this was all "normal work behavior" and he "didn't want to have to fight with me."

Well, see... and there's the thing. Recovery requires that the conditions that led to the infidelity and that allowed it to continue be eliminated. If you haven't done that, you're in the bumbling in the dark stage rather than the recovery stage.

He doesn't need me or want me there at all. I had hoped he would, but he just doesn't. His co-workers are all he needs and he's much happier not having me there when he's with them.

Mmmmm.... you don't know what his level of happiness or un is. What you know is how he acts, and right now that's not all that well.

I know. I know. Please, just let me vent. I don't have anyone else to talk to about this.

Oh dear.... apparently you didn't read the bio with my reputation... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> .... I tend to challenge and needle and rock the boat.

So tell me... how long have you been married? First marriage? Kids? Ages? Obviously infidelity... what about porn or other sexual acting out?

And then tell me what you've done over the years to effect change.

C

***Howdy MB outcast... ***
That would be me.

***Hmmmm.... and what is it your H does? What kind of friendships? How did they start? And what have you done so far?***

He is a senior manager at a very large credit card corporation. You'd recongnize the name right away. He's been there since 1986 and worked at three separate offices, one in a different state.

He is the classic Knight in Shining Armor type. Loved to let the girls cry on his shoulder and give them loads of sympathy, because he got loads of attention and admiration from the office twinkies that way.

He also quickly found out how easy it is to fool someone who trusts you -- like your wife. After he'd been there for a few years, I starting working there too, and on the very first day I tried to kiss him good-bye in an empty hallway. He was *horrified* and insisted we HAD to be all business at work because I could "hurt his career" if we were seen interacting.

With incredible stupidity, I just laughed -- "gee, you're sure not like this at home!" -- and actually went along with this. He was quite good at hiding what he was doing and until I happened to occasionally catch him and a gal-pal when they thought I wasn't looking, I didn't realize that this rule only applied to me -- not to them.

They could flirt with him, straighten his tie, touch his chest, touch his arm, all out in public. This stuff would give him a heart attack if it even looked like I was going to try it. And I have seen him walk up behind them and give then the two-handed shoulder squeeze, with everyone grinning like Cheshire cats.

But he INSISTS to this day that he has NEVER touched any of these girls. Not once. He might have "shaken their hand." But that's all. I told him I've seen this with my own eyes, but he absolutely insists it's not true.

I did not know until much later that he was in the habit of going alone off-site with them for lengthy private lunches, usually driving them in our car. It never occurred to me to ask him whether he was doing this. He said he thought this was "normal." He did this for many years and was very careful never to mention it. I know now that he flat-out lied to my face about it when necessary. He says now he lied because he "didn't want to have to fight with me."

And I know now that on one three-day out-of-town trip, his favorite female friend was also there. She worked very closely with him, but he said it just never occurred to him to mention her all that time.

***Yes well.... that may be the case. But marriage takes two and if YOU aren't ok with it then something needs to give.***

He fully expects me to be the one to give. I gave him free rein for many years on this, trusting him fully, and he sees no reason why he can't have it again. After all, he is an important senior manager and this is how he is expected to conduct business. Of course, he says "the boundaries are up now." But he cannot grasp that I have no more tolerance left for ever being in this situation again.

***No desire, not the issue. No real motivation... that's the problem. It works for him because no one makes it uncomfortable. There are no consequences that give him pause to make changes.***

This came to a head in May of 2000, after a wedding reception which ended in major humilation for me. After this, I sat him down and explained everything and tried my best to reason with him. No anger, no upset, no yelling. He could not see what the problem was, but tried instead to just reassure me that I had nothing to worry about. I stupidly thought this meant he would clean up his act.

About a year later I insisted on reading his work e-mail before he had a chance to clean it out. Nothing had changed. There were private birthday lunches, gifts exchanged, sickeningly personal messages, vulgar greeting cards given for any reason at all -- you would never have thought this guy was married from the way the two of them talked to each other (she was the one on the business trip and also his [censored]-isstant manager. Had a habit of bending over in front of him at every chance. I've seen it myself. He insists she never did this.)

After this, something of a blow-up, but only more reassurances from him. Even a Japanese-style tea ceremony which was to be a "new beginning." To my horror, I find out later that "new beginning" meand "Psycho_b will no longer worry about what her husband does at work, because she'll know he'll always come home to her at the end of the day."

It did NOT mean he was going to change a thing about his behavior.

He honestly thought this was the way to handle it. To this day, he thinks his only problem is reassuring me that he's not going to leave me for any of these girls. That it's all just "normal business behavior" and how can he get me to just accept it? Do I want flowers, gifts, new wedding rings, what?

By this time, Psycho_B***h has emerged and is ready for a strait-jacket. Genuine rage over being duped and ignored so many times. I CANNOT get through to him that he is hurting me and hurting our family. To him, the Company supports this kind of activity -- they call it "Teambuilding" -- and because they do, there is NO convincing him there's anything wrong with it.

***He can think and believe whatever he wants. But his ACTIONS need to take your feelings into account. Personally, I have no issue with all kinds of things that would make my hubby faint dead away... so if I want to be happily and successfully married I need to take his feelings into account and not do the things that he's not ok with. It's just being considerate.***

This is his cue to emphasize how nice our house is and how hard he had to work. And to tell me again how "the boundaries are up now." But he'll still take off without me "when necessary" and can give me no reassurances about that.

***There's no such thing as a "necessary" work related social event.***

Oh, no, no, no, Cerri, like me, you just don't understand! My H informed me just recently that, contrary to my foolish assumption, THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A WORK-RELATED SOCIAL EVENT. EVERYTHING THEY DO TOGETHER IS A "BUSINESS NECESSITY." END OF STATEMENT. THERE WILL BE NO FURTHER DISCUSSION ON THE SUBJECT.

This is what I am dealing with. Think of him as Bill Clinton's smarter brother who is even better at parsing words. When I said I wanted to know AHEAD of time if he was going out with his work-friends for his birthday lunch -- I had forgotten to specify that detail -- he argued with me that if I know where he WAS, that's the same as knowing where he IS.

***The two are mutually exclusive.***

Well, most reasonable people would think so, wouldn't you?

***And, as you say, if it was made to be important enough to him then he could make the change that would allow you to attend.***

He is horrified by the very idea. The corporate culture will not allow it. It simply isn't done. His employees and co-workers would be offended and would not understand.

But they sure weren't offended when he was disappearing for hour-and-a-half lunches with his bimbo co-worker, were they? They sure did understand that!

***It's just a way of getting what he wants and looking innocent at the same time.***

Well, sure it is. It's a way of continuing to keep the stone walls firmly in place around the office and Keep Me Out.

***Well, see... and there's the thing. Recovery requires that the conditions that led to the infidelity and that allowed it to continue be eliminated.***

YES YES YES -- but this is also a man who REFUSES to admit that he did anything that could be called "cheating" or "infidelity." Going out behind his wife's back for long private lunches with some girl who can't keep her butt out of his face is NOT "cheating. It's not a "date." It's not even "socializing."

I've wasted hours of my life trying to get through to him about this. It's "teambuilding," or "it's expected of me as a manager." And she's not a girlfriend, even though she spends hours crying on his shoulder about her life and gets private birthday lunches and gifts from him and spends lovely company-paid evenings on his arm at fancy dinners. She's a co-worker. So everything they do together is "normal."

***If you haven't done that, you're in the bumbling in the dark stage rather than the recovery stage.***

No kidding.

***Mmmmm.... you don't know what his level of happiness or un is. What you know is how he acts, and right now that's not all that well.***

What I know is that he is absolutely determined that how he conducts his work life will NOT change. He'll do anything else for me, but not that.

***So tell me... how long have you been married? First marriage? Kids? Ages?***

We were married in 1982. I am nearly 10 years older than he is, but we don't look it and I honestly don't think it's a factor here. He did not start playing games with his co-workers until opportunity knocked in 1991.

His first marriage. My second. I have a daughter from my first marriage who grew up with him and who is very close to him. We have a 15-year-old son together. Both kids are great.

***Obviously infidelity...***

Oh, absolutely NOT NOT NOT, as far as he's concerned! The ONLY thing he will own up to is "I may have let certain people get a little too close to me." But that's all. Period.

Since I cannot prove there was anything sexual -- only that they looked and acted like people who were doing exactly that, and who had every opportunity -- he insists nothing ever happened. They literally never touched each other. He gets very, very, furniture-throwing angry if I dare to bring the subject up.

***what about porn or other sexual acting out?***

Porn, oh yeah. An occasional magazine didn't bother me, until I found my PC loaded up with the stuff. I used to watch the x-rated films with him at home now and then -- I thought we had a good SF life and I am not a prude at all, not in private.

I even told him I would be ok with the occasional bachelor party in a strip bar, as long as I knew about it and he didn't touch anything. His friends couldn't believe I'd be that understanding and thought he sure was lucky.

Then I found out that he'd been spending at least 3-4 years going out to strip bars whenever he was traveling for the company, which was often. He says he never got a lap dance. Sure. Like I would know.

God only knows what he really did with his female co-workers. I sure don't. And probably never will. Now, I just walk around with "Stupid" branded on my forehead.

***And then tell me what you've done over the years to effect change.***

Hours upon hours upon hours of talking to him to explain my position. He actually seems to respect Marriage Builders and printed off a notebook full of things from the site that he was willing to do for me.

The POJA was not one of them.

I have gone from trying to reason with him to screaming meltdowns and back again. Life with me is NOT comfortable, not anymore.

I refuse to have anything to do with his company. I will not spend time with people who knew about his activities with the bimboes and thought it was just great, and this annoys and inconveniences him (but does not stop him from spending time with them without me.) I will not touch anything with the company logo on it and even broke my credit card in half and gave it back to him.

I've slept on the couch for months and stayed out of his life for weeks at a time. We went to a marriage counselor, who looked down his nose at me and informed me that I was "angry" and felt sorry for H that he had an angry spouse.

He doesn't seem to care about any of this. He is determined that his life will go on as usual until I learn to "accept" his actions.

He thinks he is a victim because *I* have hurt *him* by getting furious and frustrated at being kicked to the curb and lied to for other women. He insists that if I am angry at him about this, he is justified in giving it right back to me because I caused it and he's just giving back what he's getting, and what do I expect?

He insists he CANNOT understand "the depth of my anger." He says he honestly thought that if I found out about his driving off with the girls, I would have a little annoyed, but no more so than if he'd bounced a check or let the car run out of gas and he cannot understand why I am so upset.

Trying to explain to him that getting caught up with some stupid little [censored] is one thing, but arguing and fighting with me about it is another, is worse than useless.

Bottom line: he flatly refuses to admit he did anything wrong. He "may have let some people get a little too close to him," but that is ALL.

I do not know what planet he's from. I really don't.

Thank you for reading all this. Believe it or not, our life is (or was) good except for this teensy little problem revolving around his work life. He actually seemed baffled once that I could not just "overlook" this little thing since the rest of our life together was very good.

What planet is that? Do you know?

So my outcast friend, what do you want from me?

Validation? You got that. I pretty much am convinced your husband is an addict.

Help? I can do that, but I'll warn you that your life as you know it will never be the same.

I guess it comes down to this... you can do what you've been doing and pretty much assume that you'll get exactly the same result. OR you can make some very scary changes and hope that things will change for the better. In the end, I doubt they could get a whole lot worse.

I can't guarantee that your marriage will survive or that we can fix it. I can guarantee that without making significant changes in how you handle all this it will never improve.

Rotten deal any way you look at it. Oh, and did I mention I'm not very good at sugar coating or pulling punches?? LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Let me know what I can do to help, and if I can I will.

C

***I guess it comes down to this... you can do what you've been doing and pretty much assume that you'll get exactly the same result. OR you can make some very scary changes and hope that things will change for the better. In the end, I doubt they could get a whole lot worse.***

Well, lemme have it -- short of moving out, which I'm not willing to do when I've got a son at home, I've done everything else I can think of.

I was going to add that I've been very specific about what I want from him, since he claims to be constantly frustrated that he "doesn't know how to fix this." (My translation is, he doesn't know how to get me to just accept it. That's what "fixing it" means to him.)

I told him I needed (not just wanted, but NEEDED:)

1) A real apology. For well over a year after I confronted him, he was physically incapable of apologizing. I realized I was not hearing this and would say, "Please tell me you're sorry. Please tell me you know it was wrong." He would grit his teeth and glare at me in rage.

This, more than anything, is what really rips my guts out about this and it's why I need a REAL apology. Yes, he's recently forced himself to say the words "I'm sorry I hurt you," but to me that is NOT the same as "I'm sorry I did these things and I wish I'd never done them because they ruined our relationship."

Remember, according to him, he's done nothing wrong at all except maybe let some people get a little too close to him. The company encouraged and rewarded everything he did with these girls. I am the only one who didn't like it. Therefore, he's done nothing wrong and he considers this to be my problem, not his.

2) I needed information. I am well aware that I still don't know the half of what went on. He claims he can't remember anything. I'm waiting for his 20-year anniversary at the company, when they'll have one of those "This Is Your Life" sorts of things. Will he stand up then and say he doesn't remember anything and these people mean nothing to him, like he told me?

3) I needed empathy. He claims he just can't understand why I am so upset. I ask him how he would feel if I had done the same to him, and he just shrugs and says he doesn't know. There is NO empathy for me here at all.

Go ahead. Let me have it. I've been beaten up by the best for quite a while now.

Hey P_b....I didn't give up on you chere....I thought you gave up on me! I'm glad you're posting to cerri. I have a feeling she's going to give you some of the same advice some of the rest of us have....but she's got more stroke. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I wish you all the best of luck and an end to this stalemate. Nothing would please me more.

I'm with Starfish and Cerri! Pretty much what's been said to you all along...change it or accept it. I really do wish you the best!!

***I'm with Starfish and Cerri! Pretty much what's been said to you all along...change it or accept it.***

Kids, I've been trying to change it for years. Tried everything I know. I was just hoping somebody else might have a suggestion for dealing with a man whose head is encased in concrete when it comes to insisting on two separate lives for himself -- one at work and one at home.

I have NOT just sat back and accepted this, not since I found out what was really going on. I have tried to reason with him, we have gone to counseling, I sent him to MarriageBuilders, I've removed myself from his life (especially his work life, but that's what he wanted anyway,) I've dug in my heels and fought him right back -- and all that has gotten me is emotionally beaten to death.

I was just hoping someone else might have a solution, or at least explain to me why a man who claims to love me would be so determined to cut me out of half his life.

P_b,

I am hoping the same thing for you, and I'm really happy that you're posting to cerri who may very well indeed have another way of looking at this problem. I believe that sometimes when a low risk approach has no effect on a situation, that sometimes....you have to move to a higher risk approach. I suggested that you try a short Plan A (since you seem to have alot of trouble controlling LBs and are carrying so much resentment) and then think about a Plan B. That's a higer risk approach, but after three years of emotionally being beaten down and absolutely no progress at all in changing this situation....I think that you may have to try something different and probably more risky. If you keep doing the same things....you're likely to get the same results. When your H crosses your boundaries nothing happens....so he just keeps crossing them. The conflict this situation creates is completely destroying all intimacy and happiness....and before you know it....your love for your H will be gone. Then it will be too late for Plan B....because you will be done.

P_B, I really do believe you have tried everything you can think of, and I know your heart has been in the right place. I remember all too well feeling like I'd done everything I possibly could do, and it still didn't seem to be enough. I stood very adament on my stance that I'd truly TRIED EVERYTHING in my marriage...so that meant that hubby was the problem. Well, several years later and a little wiser I realize that wasn't quite true. I have a very happy marriage now, and my H isn't much different than he was before. Our HABITS have changed, but we're still the same people.

I very much look forward to Cerri's response to you. I hope you actually put in to action her recommendations. She speaks the truth...your life and your marriage will never be the same. But that's the point!! So be brave, and give her suggestions good thought. GOOD LUCK!

I meant to also say that I greatly admire your committment to your marriage! My reaction to feeling less than #1 in my H's life was to run away and try to find appreciation elsewhere. You're dedication to hanging in there and trying to find a good solution is truly admirable!!

What do you tell someone who wants change, but takes the only likely solution off the table?

PB, I can just about guarantee you that he believes his little world will never cave in on him or his duplicity. He knows you would never do something that would rock that reality.

And your statement of not moving out proves just how well he knows it.

However, after you've consulted with an attorney about your options for dissolving marriage to "big man on campus", as well as hiring a PI to gather evidence of "irreconcilliable differences", going to a deliberate and well thought out PLAN A to remove any doubts in yourself, to help you know that you have given him your very best to remember you by, followed by a completely dark PLAN B - one with the teeth to kick his *** to the curb and move him to that office he loves so much more than his marriage....

You may just find out that his non-negotiable terms are completely up for POJA, or you may find that you don't need him or his high-minded brand of mental/emotional abuse anymore, etc.

Are you woman enough to try it?

Ah Kayla! Great minds do think alike! There's an echo in here....but I like the "teeth" in it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />