I am a new member, but have been reading posts for a few weeks. I feel comforted when I come to this site and thought I should go ahead and register.

I met my H about 6 - 7 years ago at work. Both of us had been married before-he for 30 years and me for 11. When I met him, he told me that he had two affairs while he was married before. One affair was with a local women that lasted for 10 years and the other was with a women that lived in another state (VA) (that he travelled to for business-she worked at the company he visited)for six months. I know that should have had me running for the hills, however, we were married on Valentines Day 2000. He told me that I was the love of his life.

About two years ago I caugh him on the Internet in an EA. I believe I caught it very early on and that there were not yet any plans to meet. All of the contact took place by email either at work or home. Not knowing any better, however, I did not ask a lot of questions and just took his word for it. I did not catch them contacting each other since the time I found out about it.

On 6/20/03, I found out that he was involved in a PA. I found out about it the strangest way...I walked into his office (yes-we still work for the same company) shortly before lunch time...could hear him typing on his computer as I walked up to the doorway. When I walked in the door, his face just froze, turned bright red and he looked as though he was about to cry. I asked him what was wrong and he did not answer for a few minutes before he finally said that nothing was wrong. I knew deep down that something was up...in fact, I felt that if I looked under his desk, I would find a women under there. I asked him "what's wrong, are you sending an email that you shouldn't be sending?". He just stared at me and then said no.

I immediately left and went home for lunch. He ran some errands. As soon as I got home, I dialed in and checked his work voice mail box and sure enough, heard five voice mail messages from OW...one of the messages confirming when they were last together (6/4) and all of the things he had done to her that made her feel so damn good. I thought I was going to die right on the spot.

To make a long ugly story shorter, he denied, denied, denied...I opened my own bank accounts and told him to find a place to live (he didn't leave), eventually calmed down enought to talk about marriage counseling, which we started on 7/9/03.

Once marriage counseling began, the counselor told him that he needed to answer all of my questions before we could start on the recovery process. He did. Guess what? Guess who the OW is...that's right, the OW from VA! He has not made a business trip to VA for 10 years until the first of this year. After learning about his upcoming trips, he called her and told her that he was going to be traveling there (she since left the first company and went to another company in the same area - funny, that company turns out to have business with ours now too). Also admitted that he has been talking to her "just as friends" for the past 2 - 3 years. I found out that while I was planning his surprise b-day party, he was getting b-day cards from her. Found out that he met with her in his hotel room on 2/13...the night before our 3rd Anniversay. Saw her for another trip in March and then again on 6/4 & 6/5. Admitted that he didn't necessarily need to make the last two trips and could have handled everything by phone! Great huh? The OW is also married, in fact, she issued NC 10 years ago when they were seeing each other because her H found out about the A back then!

My WH issued no contact to OW by phone on 6/20, the same afternoon I found out. I have checked, doublechecked and triplechecked and cannot find that contact has taken place since then. She tried calling him three times, of which he immediately told me about. I finally called the OW and told her that NC means NC.

My WH has done absolutely everything that I have asked of him. He has put up with my anxiety attacks, emotional breakdowns and anger. He continues to go to marriage counseling with me. I read both Surviving An Affair and HNHN and he is doing everything right. I can clearly see that I was not meeting his EN's. I have not been happy during the past year or so because he was not meeting mine. Within a week or so of finding out about the A, I started meeting his EN's (mostly SF)without even realizing I was doing that.

So, why do I still feel so sad? I feel like our whole relationship is fake. I don't believe what he tells me. He constantly tells me that he loves me, wants to spend the rest of his life with me, that I am the love of his life...etc. I don't believe him. I found out from one of the voice mail messages that he told the OW some of the same things!

Do I just need to be more patient?

Sorry so long. Thanks for listening.

If you haven't already, do two things. One, click on the link in my signarture line. The path to recovery takes time. It is early for you yet. Read, learn, and then put it in to practice. The second is to tell her H. you would want to know if it was you, wouldn't you?

Thanks for your quick reply and link. I have read absolutely everything on the MB site plus any other sites I can find (Peggy Vaughn, etc.).

I have been back and forth about telling OW's H. I would feel better writing a letter, however, I only have home phone number, city and state. The street address does not come up on searches on the Internet. I don't think I could make it through a phone call without babbling like an idiot. I can barely think about the A without bursting into tears let alone talk about it. Plus, the OW left most of her voice mail messages to my WH at night from her home, so I probably would not get through to her H very easily.

I have a strange mix of emotions today. I feel both sad and very angry. I feel like such a fool now that I know (or think I know) what happened.

Dear stillsosad,

I'm so sorry for your pain. I've been there...heck, I'm still there! I just wanted to say that a man with a track record like your H's is dealing with much more than just you not meeting his EN. He is dealing with huge issues within himself...more likely than not that deal with his childhood. He probably feels that there is some perfect "love of his life" out there who can make him feel whole and can fill the huge hole that he carries with him throughout his life. That woman does not exist. Nobody can fill that hole for him....it needs to be healed.

Here’s a quote from a book called Mothers, Sons and Lovers-How a Man’s Relationship With His Mother Affects the Rest of His Life by Michael Gurian:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> “The man who drinks the ocean again and again moves from relationship to relationship, leaving each relationship when the infatuation and ecstasy are gone. He find ‘em, feels ‘em, fu**s ‘em, and forgets ‘em. He sometimes wakes up in the morning knowing in his deep heart’s core that this is not mature love, there is a better way, he’s still stuck in adolescence…but he finds these moments of clarity dissolve at the sight of a new woman to consume.

The man who drinks the ocean again and again (What he is referring to is part of a mythological story called The Moon Children. The “man who drinks the ocean again and again” refers to sex and love addiction with the drinking being repeated behavioral acting out.) relies on sex as his primary form of intimacy and on conquest-intimacy as his primary mode of building self-image. He may be very “sensitive”, able to talk well, to convince women he really cares about them. But his relationships still won’t last more than a few months or a year. He may even have been married for a number of years, but throughout the long-term commitment his eyes never stop straying period. He carries on extramarital affairs, some of them non-sexual but affectionate to the point of robbing his primary love relationship.

The man who drinks the ocean again and again has been wounded deeply in his boyhood. It is probable that in his relationship with his mother he was abused, neglected, abandoned, impinged on, raised in her alcoholism or other addiction. His attachment to her was probably stunted, incestuous (sexually and/or psychologically), confused by abandonment. Because it was not an attachment based on trust, his separation from her was all the more confusing. He grew up yearning for her to love him and sees her reflected in the many mates he finds. As an adult, he is yearning, through many lovers, to prove to his mother that he worthy of feminine affection."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are some deep issues at work within a person that cheats over and over again. They have to look into their childhood, their relationship with their parents, etc. to find answers. If this is not done, they often find themselves repeating the behavior even though they hate themselves for doing it.

There is a men's movement that taps into this area. It is called The Mankind Project. You can find it at www.mkp.org . They have a Weekend Warrior retreat that gives these men what they need to become men of integrity. My H participated in it and it has helped him SO much! That, along with IC, MC and a huge desire to be a new man have brought us into a wonderful recovery of our marriage.

Another thought is male depression. It is rampant in our society! Terrence Real has written about this epidemic in his book I Don't Want To Talk About It . I personally think it should be required reading for all male WSs. He also wrote another one that we just ordered called How Can I Get Through to You?. Our therapist highly recommends both of them.

You can do this. It's hard work, but it's possible. If he will face his shadow side and learn to control it and incorporate it for the good, he can be a wonderful man and husband. He will be so much happier with himself and won't need any woman to make him feel like a man. He'll feel complete and then you can compliment him in your relationship with him instead of prop him up.

Stillwed

Dear stillwed,

Thanks for your reply. It makes a lot of sense to me and I plan to speak with our counselor about it. My frustration with counseling is that I thought his past track record warranted further individual counseling. Instead, I'm getting it because I'm having trouble coping. H's one and only individual session was summed up by counselor that he is a "thrill-seeker" and needs to learn to turn inward rather than outward. During one of my individual sessions I said the result of his session wasn't acceptable...fine, he has a label but what is going to make him change or deal with it? The counselor says that until he starts showing frustration during recovery (like wants me to hurry and get over it) or repeats something, there's nothing more she can do right now. I don't understand. I found out a couple of weeks ago that he sent a different women a Happy Birthday email. This women is a business contact. She mentioned her b-day a while back when talking to him on the phone, he added it to his calendar and sent it to her on the big day. I asked him if he sends b-day messages to all of his male business contacts also, if yes, then he's just a nice guy. Of course the answer was no! Shouldn't the counselor have seen that as a repeat?

The quote you included makes sense. Both of his parents were alcoholics. His mother left his father when H was about 10 or 11. She stopped in at the skating rink to tell him she was leaving his Dad on her way out of town. She ended up marrying someone else, having three more kids and living on the other side of the state. It doesn't sound like she saw my H or his brother very much once she left. Both of his parents are now deceased.

H is also an alcoholic (I didn't realize until we were married a while - he did a good job of keeping it to a minimum). Although I've talked to him about it before during the past three years, it took me discovering the A to get him serious about his problem. I think it clicked with him when I found out that all of his sexual encouters with OW were when he wasn't drinking and I told him "that's pretty special...you make sure the OW gets to make love to you sober but your wife doesn't even get that". H has not had anything to drink since 6/21. I was hoping that this would be the biggest key to get him to overcome his cheating ways!

I believe he has bigger issues too and I'm glad to read that somebody else saw the same thing. H always turns the slightest bit of affection into sex. I've had to tell him recently that sometimes I need just the hugs & kisses and not the whole works.

Looks like I need to speak with the counselor again. Or, maybe we need to find a new one?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by stillsosad:
<strong>

I have been back and forth about telling OW's H. I would feel better writing a letter, however, I only have home phone number, city and state. The street address does not come up on searches on the Internet. I don't think I could make it through a phone call without babbling like an idiot. I can barely think about the A without bursting into tears let alone talk about it.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I felt the apprehension about calling as you do. A friend suggested before the phone call to the OMW that I make a list of all the important issues that I wanted to say as well as important questions. Then put them in order and stick to it during the conversation. It worked like a dream, when we drifted off topic I could go right back to it without skipping a beat. Make each item short so it doesn't sound like you are reading from a script. You can elaborate as you go, but not too much.

When you make the call, let OWH know that you are in love with your husband and want the affair to stop by exposing it. Even though you know this hurts him, that isn't your purpose and didn't call to hurt him or his W but that you are just trying to save your marriage. Be respectful and sensitive. Don't be judgemental or use fowl names for the affair or those involved. Try to stay calm, cry if you have to but don't convey bitterness or hopelessness.

Don't use your own phone or one your H can recognize, because of caller ID. If OW finds the number she may ask you WH if he knows the number. You don't want to tip them off before you get a chance to talk with OWH.

Caution - Don't get too attached to the OWH or let him get attached to you. It's too easy to do. When I called, OMW was upset with me, but now she calls me at times to share and update. I have to be careful not to get too friendly with her.

Give out as little information to him as possible. He will no doubt confront his WW and she will tell your WH. Let him supply most of the info. So don't let him bate you into going on and on about your marriage and problems.

Dear Stillsosad,

You may have to give him an ultimatum...but probably not yet. I did, but I didn't have Marriage Builders as a resource at the time. I told him that I wanted him to stay, that he in fact NEEDED to stay and clean up the mess that he had made and that we could make this work. I told him that I would not let him stay if he didn't agree to counseling for himself. He also had to get to the bottom of WHY he had these affairs and take full responsibility for his actions. We actually went to IC for awhile before attempting MC. I am still in IC. He isn't currently as he's been busy with his men's group, but will get back to it soon.

He went to the Mankind Project weekend about 3 months into recovery. He was dealing with his childhood issues already at that time and was an emotional mess so he wasn't sure he should go, but did. He is so glad that he did. It was life changing for him. They teach men how to become men of integrity. It has no religious affiliations....it's about men helping men become men. They hold each other accountable for whatever they have asked to be held accountable for.

Have you ever read Getting the Love You Want by Harville Hendrix? It's good and it will introduce you to Imago therapy. You can look up Imago therapy online and find out what it is basically about, but it is dealing with your childhood issues within the setting of your marriage.

I would get and read both of Terrence Real's books. Your H really needs to read the one about depression. I hope he is a reader or willing to become one. Also I would find a copy of Healing the Shame That Binds You by John Bradshaw and for good measure add in the one I mentioned by Michael Gurian. They are all probably available on amazon.com and combined they are all probably cheaper than one counseling session. Another one that looks promising and that we have on order is called Romancing the Shadow: A Guide to Soul Work for a Vital, Authentic Life .

I can't emphasize enough that he will have to do this work or chances are huge that he will continue his behavior. He is a serial cheater and they don't change just because they want to. They change because they want to and because they are finding that their behavior has become more painful than pleasurable. They are addicts to either sex, love, romance, whatever. They are the way they are because they got off the growth track somewhere in their childhood. (Your husband's is OBVIOUS.) They are stuck in an adolescent phase in their relationship with ALL women. They can only see themselves as they appear in the mirror of yet another woman. They have NO genuine self-esteem...it is all based on what they see in the mirror of the woman that they are with. Believe it or not, you may well be playing the role of his mother right now in his mind...even without him realizing it. You may not even know what it feels like to be in the role of wife and lover with him yet. No woman really does because he doesn't know how to love himself yet...how can he truly love a woman? In order to feel love for himself, he has to see it through the eyes of a woman who wants him and that's not a healthy way to be.

Do you want to do this? It's hard work. If you do, your reward will be a real man, with real self-esteem and he'll treat you like a queen for seeing this potential in him even when he couldn't. You can't do the work for him though...or be the only one to want it. He has to want it bad enough to work hard at it.

Here's Terrence Real's website...I just found it and am anxious to explore it...not sure what is there though.
http://www.relationalrecoveryinstitute.com/index.htm

Stillwed

Thanks Monty for the encouragement. I guess part of my apprehension is that I find it very hard to give someone some news that will make them feel as devastated as I do. I'm going to try one more time to find a street address. If I can't, then I guess I'll prepare for a call. It will be hard to disguise my call...since we live in different states, my area code, regardless of the rest of the number, will tip OW off immediately.

I was unsure what you meant with one of your comments - "Give out as little information to him as possible. He will no doubt confront his WW and she will tell your WH. Let him supply most of the info. So don't let him bate you into going on and on about your marriage and problems." I guess my question is what kind of information should I expect from OWH?

Thanks.

Thanks again for your reply stillwed. I'm already overwhelmed with different emotions and feelings. The information you gave me makes my situation even more overwhelming to deal with. I think I need to meet with my counselor to see what she thinks about this. I think my WH is a repeater also and I don't think he's getting the help he needs. He said he is determined to become a better person out of all this. I believe he feels ashamed and extremely guilty for the A. But, how long will it be before he is even tempted to do it again? Can a person be strong enough to really help themselves?

Dear Stillsosad,

You wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I believe he feels ashamed and extremely guilty for the A. But, how long will it be before he is even tempted to do it again? Can a person be strong enough to really help themselves?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Probably quite awhile. Look at his "record" and see what the pattern looks like. Do you think he is being honest about this being the only infidelity during your marriage to him? My H's pattern was to go for 3 to 5 years between relationships or between strings of ONSs, with trying to be a great H in between them. He did have a push/pull type of relationship with me naturally (from his personality style) where he would pull me in close, but was afraid of true intimacy so he'd push me away. He would blow up at me and condemn some part of my participation in the relationship. It was very confusing for me. Men with this type of childhood tend to believe that they are flawed somehow. They don't just think that their behavior is bad they think that THEY are BAD. There is a huge difference. When they feel that they are bad, they have a hard time overcoming the feeling to just give up. They figure, what's the use...this is the type of bad person that I am. I can never be everything my wife wants me to be so I give up. Better find a little happiness in this life if I can, however I can. It's sad and it's probably not something that they will realize about themselves without counseling.

I'm sorry that I've overwhelmed you. I just want you to realize what you are up against. You situation is very different from that of a man who strays once in his life and then is faithful. With the repeat offender, it doesn't matter who they are married to...this is completely their problem. They can't remain faithful until they heal the hole in their heart. Or, if they do manage to remain faithful, they are still sad, broken people because they haven't dealt with their deep abandonment issues in childhood.

This type of man does have the ability to be a WONDERFUL husband. They know what it feels like to not be loved or at least not appreciated in childhood and they don't want that for their spouse. When they are healthy they are very loving and kind. They are often very charming (which is what leads OW to them).

Read this article to give you an idea of what Imago Therapy can do for the two of you. If you buy the book it has exercises in the back that you can try at home. It is called Getting the Love You Want by Harville Hendrix.

http://www.askann.com/articles.html

I know that you are feeling overwhelmed right now and that you have to get through this part before you can do any real work on the marriage. My H and I really didn't get into the "right" counseling until about 3 months into recovery. (We tried some, but didn't find one we liked.) That was good in a way because it gave us time to settle a bit and time for me to settle from getting the news I had hoped never to hear again in my life. (He had cheated on me in 1986 and sworn to never do it again.)

I'm exhausted right now, but we really do have a wonderful marriage. I know that you can recover if he is willing to do the work.

Take care. I hope that you are feeling better soon. Get lots of rest if you can and baby the heck out of yourself. It will help.

Stillwed

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by stillsosad:
<strong>Thanks Monty for the encouragement. I guess part of my apprehension is that I find it very hard to give someone some news that will make them feel as devastated as I do. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know how you feel. You can look at it a number of ways, pro and con, but I chose to do it because you may be helping the OWH in the long run. Although your news will hurt him, he won't be blind sided when it too late to save his own marriage. Also, he had a right to know what's going on, even if it hurts. Some of us would prefer not to know of the affair, let it end and it wouldn't have hurt anyone, but too often it does come back to haunt.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>
I was unsure what you meant with one of your comments - "Give out as little information to him as possible. He will no doubt confront his WW and she will tell your WH. Let him supply most of the info. So don't let him bate you into going on and on about your marriage and problems." I guess my question is what kind of information should I expect from OWH?

Thanks.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In my case, I called to tell OMW about the affair, but I also wanted to find out about OM to see if my D would be safe around him, should my WW and OM move in together or marry. I didn't tell her much about my WW except that I loved her and that she had been a good wife and just couldn't understand why she allowed herself to be involved in an affair. She told me tons of stuff about his drinking, abuse, sex habits everything. I know more about him than I do my own sister, but told very little.

Stillwed,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you think he is being honest about this being the only infidelity during your marriage to him? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe so. Since I discovered his A and realized that he's been lying to me for a long, long time, I thought perhaps he lied to me about previous A's. So I questioned everthing again. I again asked him to tell me about the A's he had during his first marriage. He answered everything the same as I remember him telling me the first time. I also asked H if he had any ONS's during his first marriage or to me (I had never asked that before). He first said that he didn't understand why what happened during his first marriage had anything to do with us. I told him that it helps me to establish truthfulness on his part or not. He finally answered with "No, because that's too hard to do". Jeez...sounds like maybe he tried but failed!

I also went over our years together asking about any other A's. This was directly after a counseling session about being honest going forward (good or bad) which he agreed to do. So I feel pretty confident that I know about all of them. We discussed his EA two years ago and the recent PA. Both fit in with his actions during our marriage.

But then again, what do I know? I thought I knew what was going on before!

Dear Stillsosad,

Well, at least you talked to him and got out of him what he was willing to give. Now, I would read and continue to go to counseling. Give it some time and see if you think he's experiencing a genuine healing or just getting past this one experience.

I'm so sorry for your pain!

Stillwed

Hey Monty I did it...Informed OWH about the A!

I paid $9.95 on US Search to get the street address I needed to contact the OWH by certified mail. I worded it as you suggested..."Even though what I'm about to tell you may cause you pain, my purpose in writing this letter is to save my marriage, not hurt you. I've learned in both individual and marriage counseling that it's important to expose affairs so they cannot survive..." I requested that he leave me a voice mail message or send a quick email to confirm that he did indeed receive the letter and that it was not intercepted somehow by OW. I also said that if I hadn't heard anything in a few days, that I would contact him by phone. I used my sister's address (in another state) as return address.

I wasn't sure if I should let my WH know about this or not. I did finally speak to him and told him what I was thinking of doing. I expected him to tell me all of the reasons not to do it (like no need to hurt OW or OWH, etc.). He surprised me with his response. He said that although he wouldn't do it (and would not want to find out about an A any way other than on his own) it was my decision and that if I felt it was important to do, to go ahead and do it. He said he did not care about OW/OWH marriage, their lives, etc.

I take that as a good sign in our recovery.

While part of me feels better to have sent the letter, the other part is dreading the possibility of dealing with more OW crap next week!