I've been seriously thinking about filing for divorce during the last six weeks or so. I've seen an attorney and I've drafted an emotional letter to my husband that explains why and thanks him for the years together.<P>Brief background for those that don't know my story (is that possible - I've been here for a year now). I'm separated nearly 16 months, since Sept. 98. It's a fourteen year marriage. We have a seven year old boy and a toddler. My husband got involved with a woman at his office while I was pregnant with our toddler and left the day she turned two months old. We had just moved into a new house which I had to decorate and landscape on my own.<P>The affair continues to this day, with no abatement. My husband has been non-communicative and cold throughout. He's no longer angry, but he shows no emotion whatsoever. And he has NO RELATIONSHIP with our toddler. He sees our son every other weekend and one night during the week. He has never met our son's teacher, or taken him to a doctor's appointment, or even on a vacation. I did Plan A for four months, Plan B for five months (he never saw our baby a single time during Plan B) and Plan A again since June. There's nothing left inside of me for any more needs meeting. The efforts made him happy to be with us, but not enough to end his affair. He has periodically said he was going to file for divorce, but does nothing. He's never seen a counselor, taken an anti-depressant, or read a self-help book. If he's investing any effort to work through this, there's no evidence of it to me.<P>While I was needs meeting, he saw our toddler. Now that I've stopped inviting him to things, he no longer sees her. Hasn't seen her since the beginning of November. There is no bond between them. She doesn't know him.<P>I am a fighter and feel I've held onto this beyond the point of reason. There is no love or respect left inside me for my husband. I know he was a good man once, but he's done so much damage during the last year. He's made no effort to apologize, stop it, or even explain himself.<P>Based on the above, probably everyone would say I'm ready to serve him the papers. But I have two darling children to consider. My son will be devastated. He has told me directly that he wants me to wait as long as it takes. He says that if I divorce dad, he'll never come back home. I would be removing his hope.<P>Also hanging over me is the relationship with our toddler. It is clear to me that if I don't manage that relationship, there will be none. Probably forever. Can I live with that? Before you answer, I know it's his responsibility to be a father. But if I divorce him believing that ends their relationship forever, am I culpable in the outcome?<P>So many people will be hurt. The inlaws have invited us all over for Christmas. They're so hoping we can work this out. I feel like I'll be letting down everyone.<P>Meanwhile, no man has touched me for a year and a half now. All I've done is give, give, give. My lovebank is well below the reserve level. I'm at the point now where I can barely look at my husband. I feel contempt and disgust. I try to stay away from him. Still, I don't lovebust when we connect.<P>This man that I see is completely unlike the man I married and lived with for so long. But after this much time, it's hard to believe that old version still exists. For others that have made the tough call, how did you feel when you finally took matters into your own hands and ended the marriage? What did it do to the children who had already endured a long separation?<P>Any and all input is appreciated. Does anyone think there's anything more I can do to turn this around?<BR>

Distressed,<BR>I have nothing to offer as I am at the same point as you. We have already filed and divorce hearing is 2-1-00.<P>As far as your children are concerned, you are not responsibel for him not being a father. Your son will not blame him for abandoning him but will take his anger out on you because you are with him.<P>Should you wait, only you can answer that. There are some here that have waited years. I lasted 5-6 months. It is totally up to what you can stand. To me it sounds as if you have done everything possible.<P>God Bless<P><P>------------------<BR>"You can't always get what you want! But if you try real hard,you might just find, you get what you need!"<BR>Mick Jagger<BR>

Distressed,<BR>I wish I had really good advice to give you. I do not. I might suggest calling Steve Harley, just as a last resort, but only if you have the energy and desire to do so. <P>This is what i hear in your post Distressed: you would be interested in keeping your marriage, but mostly for the sake of your son and toddler at this point. You feel responsible for their bond and their continued relationship. But let's face it - divorced or separated - you are the one who has to make the effort for your H to see your baby. And if he doesn't respond, it doesn't matter if you are divorced or not. You know it has to be his responsibility at the most basic level to maintain this relationship with his kids. God knows you have done everything possible to make this happen.<P>But you can't do it all alone. Just like you can't save the marriage all alone. It is not YOU who would be letting everyone down - you have been phenomenal. And have given the rest of us so much support and good advice to boot through this whole mess!!<P>I guess I would just say if you have any doubts, give yourself a time limit (3 months?) and reevaluate then. Unless you have found the custody and financial reasons to be compelling - maybe a little more time will give you the peace of mind you are looking for on this decision.<P>I am so so sorry Distressed. But know that your good advice and solid friendship mean a lot to me and to others here as well. I know you will find happiness again - whatever you choose...<P>Starpony

{{{{{{{{{{<B>Distressed</B>}}}}}}}}}},<P>You've reached a point that I feel everyone who starts on a Plan B dreads...<P>I know you said you're back into a Plan A... did you formally go into Plan B again... new Plan B letter again?<P>At this satge... I can think of only one thing(cop out)... set up a counseling session with (Steve) Harley...<P>I don't know if going back into a Plan B again(for another few months) makes sense... staying in Plan A doesn't seem to make sense for sure.<P>As far as your son is concerned... Some more discssions with him are needed... maybe even some counseling in preparation for a divorce. It is stated in the book <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi6070_sa.html" TARGET=_blank>"Surviving An Affair"(SAA)</A> that... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>(#3.) The (betrayed) spouse needs to know that he/she had done his/her best to save their marriage. (page 76 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>...it seems you may have done your best...and... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>(#4.) If the (betrayed) spouse follows the plans (A & B), and they(the plans) fail, the (betrayed) spouse would no longer have any feelings of love for the wayward spouse. (page 76 of SAA)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>... I just don't know if this is where you're at... honestly! Yes... to move on in life... a divorce is necessary... especially if you are to have another life fulfilling relationship...<P>Sorry I can't be of more help...<P>But I am most definitely praying for you...<BR>I too have the fear... that my W will too be like your H... (as I too am shortly starting a Plan B)<P>Jim<BR>---------------------------------<BR>Where two or more are gathered...

These are awesome responses. I think psychologically I'm looking for validation that I'm not responsible for my husband's relationship with the children. They are everything to me and I don't want to live the rest of my life thinking that I've come up short on one of the most important things in their lives.<P>RWD, I've followed your story for some time. You're a very strong individual. In some ways, it's been easier for me on the roller coaster because my husband never made an effort to reconcile. My roller coaster has only gone downhill - an agonizing, slow descent straight into hell. I think it's harder when they get your hopes up and then run back to the OP. How any parent can abandon their kids though is completely beyond me. In my world, that is FAR WORSE than the adultery. It is unforgivable.<P>Starpony, thank you for your kind words. I know intellectually that I'm not responsible for his relationship with the kids. I also realize that it's completely impractical for me to sacrifice my future romantic life to manage that relationship for the three of them. At this point, I'm physically incapable of orchestrating their interactions and participating with them. So the reality is I can no longer do it in separation. I certainly will not do it in divorce. The only point, I guess, is that divorce removes all hope of reconciliation. I've connected reconciliation with his resumed parenting, which may be an error on my part. If we reconcile he's almost sure to become a dad again. But if we don't, I don't see it happening. It is possible for him to become a parent again in divorce, but it will be totally up to him. I guess it says alot about the way I think of him these days that I'm so doubtful he can pull it off without me.<P>I really appreciate your comments and want to thank you for your support too. I used to be able to help alot of people at this forum. Now, it's too hard for me to give advice. I suspect I'll fully ween myself off here after I file. There were times when I was so addicted to the forum that I would hit the refresh key repetitively to catch new messages when they popped in. It really helped me in the early days. I think I helped it during my middle months. Now, I can't do much. It's depressing.<P>NSR, God bless what you do for the newbies. You're a special gift to these folks that are ruled by fear and panic.<P>Regarding Steve Harley, he's a wonderful counselor and I've met with him many times. But at this stage, I don't see how he can help me. It's a race amongst tortoises to see who comes in first - my completely losing my love and filing for divorce or my husband getting dumped by the OW or losing his job, hitting rock bottom, and taking some action. I could wait another five years for some external event to drive him to action. He clearly is doing NOTHING on his own, in any direction. He is obviously depressed. He's gained a huge amount of weight and has dropped all previous relationships. But he isn't doing anything to help himself. No one can make him see a counselor or address the issues he's avoiding. Meanwhile, the damage is phenomenal.<P>There is no point in going back to Plan B. My love bank is already empty and it's obviously not going to motivate my husband to do anything different than the avoidance he's already practicing. I either wait longer with my "nice when I have to see you" version of Plan A, or I file for divorce. I'm leaning towards the latter. I will certainly wait until after the holidays to take action and am not committing myself to either course of action at this time. But I'm feeling an increasing sense that I should just get this over with.<P>I really appreciate these great responses. I was looking for validation and I got it. I don't know if I will really feel free of guilt if I do pursue the divorce, but I do think that I have done everything I could to save the marriage. At some point, my husband does have to act like a human being. I can't cover for him forever.

Distressed,<BR>I've gotten a few more rides up the roller coaster than you, but, especially this last time I was just filled with the apprehension of the flight down.<P>My lovebank is also close to empty. The thought of my H leaving again brings as much relief as it does sadness. Like you, I've given everything I've got and been in this over a year (20 months since affair began, longer since he pulled away--though he does push close every now and then). I find my H wants me to keep my promises, but he sees no reason to keep his. He told me this week when I said "But you promised!" (and this regarded a promise made recently) He said, "I broken so many promises to you." My lovebank took a bad drain on those words, it was as if he considered me foolish for believing him once again.<P>I guess I'm not helping you, Distressed. Just commiserating. I'm thinking of divorce and what my life ahead would be. This isn't the life I want.<P>Lor

Distressed,<P>I think that it's probably time. It's going to be hard on your kids (and on you), but you could wait another 5 years and it'd be the same. It really doesn't sound like you've got much love left for him, and it also doesn't sound like he's capable of coming around.<P>It's terribly sad---but you truly have given your marriage the best shot that you could.

No real advice, but it does seemt that it is time for you to stop waiting. This man does not seem to be a good role model for your kids. Don't feel guilty about his non-existant relationship with your daughter. That is ENTIRELY his fault! If he wanted to be a part of your daughter's life he knows where she is at all times. Just put the love that you had for H on your daughter and son. They both need you to help them get past this, your son especially. Don't let your son dictate your decisions, you can't live your life to make him happy by making yourself miserable.

It's pretty clear that it's time. I've been loathe to accept this outcome but I'm finally coming around to see that it might be the best thing.<P>Lor, I appreciate your support throughout this fiasco. I'm always here to commisserate with you. How and why previously good men like this turn so bad is beyond me. But at some point, why doesn't matter anymore. The fact is, they are. After we give them the time to work through it, we can either accept them as they are or let them go. I know I can't accept my husband as he is. As trying2-4give points out, the man is a terrible role model. He has no values.<P>My son is even starting to see the problems. He's said things like "Dad never lets me stay with him on Sunday evenings. Wherever he runs to is more important than spending time me." Also, "how come when I'm with Dad we never see any other people or go anywhere?" and "Dad must be so busy with work that he has no time to think about coming back to us.". Aside from seeing the OW, my husband now lives in complete isolation. In all this time, he still hasn't taken a day off from work to spend with our son. The whole thing is tragic.<P>K, yours is probably the ultimate validation. When you say I've given this enough time, it has special meaning. I know how committed you've been to helping people save marriages and you've been both an inspiration and a friend. I'm asking for the freedom and the wisdom to let go of this and when you tell me that's it's OK, I know that I can go free of guilt.<P>Trying2-4give, you are right, he is totally responsible for his relationship with the kids. There's irony in our situation. He tells everyone that he left because I'm so controlling (everyone but me. I never heard this until after we were separated.). It is true that I "over function". I've never been manipulative or passive-aggressive, but I'm quick with making decisions (except this one) and accomplishment oriented. But the reality is a) he cannot make decisions or take action without me, and b) he's been controlling me for quite some time by withholding information, telling lies, and being evasive. When I see him now, or listen to what his parents say to me, there's one overwhelming theme. He views himself as not responsible for anything in his life. His parents say that he says that my parents will never forgive him. I say "has he ever apologized, shown remorse, or stopped the bad behavior?". Not too much chance of forgiveness without that. Every problem that he's brought up (again to his parents, not to me), was never mentioned during the marriage, never mind worked on. No wonder we can't solve anything.<P>Anyway, I'm sure he's found some way to avoid responsibility for the situation with the kids. I don't know how long it might take, if ever, for him to realize that what happens in his life is because of what he chooses to do. He thinks I have far more power than I do. Why he doesn't realize this now, after all the time and space I've given him, is beyond me. Perhaps he doesn't want to see.<P>I love those children with all my heart and I give them everything imaginable. You are right, that must be where I focus my energy. Miraculously, they do feel secure. The little girl is happy and loved by many. In fact, I'm off with them later today for a vacation. I'll be away from the Forum for a few days.<P>Thank you all for your support. I'm going to take my letter with me and work on it. I'm fairly certain I will do this, but will wait a little longer just to make sure. I can't thank you enough for your insights.

Hi Distressed,<BR> <BR> I am so sorry for what you are going through....I know you have been here a long time and have received alot of wisdom from your posts in the pasts. My question to you is what in the world does his family say about his abandonment of his kids? You have done everthing humanly possible to bring him back and restore the marriage. Like someone else said with a divorce or without a divorce it is his responsibility to be a father.....we're thinking of you with whatever decision you make....Lu

Distressed:<P>I couldn't pass up a chance to write to you about this. I really feel for you in this situation, but I think K is right. You've given this about as much of a chance as any marriage can have, and your H hasn't responded.<P>I'm so sorry that you have to go through this, but you WILL be happy again. Don't concern yourself with your H's attitude toward your toddler. It is terribly disappointing when a biological parent refuses to step in and have a relationship with a child.<P>But, remember this: Any man can be a sperm donor. It takes character to be a father . . . to own up to the family responsibilities. Clearly, your H isn't there, and he's truly let you ALL down.<P>Now that you know what you have to do, make an effort, regardless of how hard it is, to get on with your life and not look back. Your children deserve a father figure that is worthy of their respect. Whether you ever choose to marry again or not, don't let them use your H as the standard for their male influence. He did the easy part and copped out on the hard part. Your kids deserve better. YOU deserve better.<P>I wish you the best of luck in moving on.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P>

Distressed,<P>It has been a long hard ride for you. I have been around but not posting much. I too think is is time for you to move on. It was the best thing I did. I stopped obsessing about a relationship that was never going to happen again. My h much like yours never came back to ever give it a chance. I am happy now, I have found my way in life. I am very close to finalizing my divorce. I have met someone new, who understands that I am slow to trust again, but is willing to take it slow with me. I am at a much better place with my children, they are not caught up in the roller coaster that limbo is. Don't feel guilty, you hung in there far more than most. You should feel proud of that accomplishment. I am thinking of you, I hope you have a nice holiday. Keep in touch.<P>Gerri

Distressed,<BR>I read somewhere that men often relate to their children primarily through their wives, and if that relationship falls apart, they often stop putting any effort into the relationship with their children. I don't understand how men (or more rarely women) can do this. I don't understand how a good man can go bad. <P>I understand why you put so much importance on having him maintain a relationship with his kids. Having my H be a good, loving father is my most important "emotional need" - far more important than anything Harley mentions. <P>I think men who complain about being controlled let themselves be controlled - certainly my H seems to be letting the OW control him far more than I ever did. As with most affairs, the problem really centers on the fact that the betrayer does not feel good about himself.<P>Only you can decide whether it is time to file. You have certainly given it your best.