Everyone was right, my wife is having aa affair. I caught her last night. I started a thread in Emotional Needs that kind of chronicals what happer over the night. I should of started it here...sorry. I'm lost for what to do, she absolutly HATES ME now. Will not even talk to me. Can get in contact with you or the harley's this weekend for an emergency session?? How does this work in these cases?

<small>[ September 13, 2003, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: RJP ]</small>

It's slow on the weekends here, so you won't get too many replies. If this were a Monday...

You've gotten quite a bit of advice on the other thread. Plan A and expose the A. Confronting the OM is sticky...be careful...take some time and come up with a plan. Not a good idea to make yourself look like a loon right now.

Operate with dignity and grace and most especially LOVE. Do everything out of LOVE. Treat this like an addiction, sometimes you have to be tough with the one you love if they are addicted to a substance. Letting family and friends know about the A. DO you have some good friends you could talk to? Be careful though, you'll get some pretty lame advice.

Plan A, Plan A, Plan A.

Keep checkingup on her. Coming outside of the house was TOTALLY within your rights. Some BS go as far as recording phone calls, checking up on cell phone records, putting on spy software on the computer. If the WS wasn't up to something...they wouldn't mind. They get mad because they are afraid they'll get caught and have to stop.

I still have spy software on my computer, my FWH knows about it and is OK with it (now). He still lets me check his email accounts and I ask him about strange calls from caller ID...I may have to do this for years before I feel better. That's the life...and if he were up to something, then he'd keep me from finding out.

Some BSs will find a way to get information but not tell WS (that way they can keep on finding information).

Spying is OK!!!!! Ask yourself, would it be OK if my wife spyed on me? Of course!

RPJ,
i read your post on the other board and have to tell you that it sounds like you're in a bad spot.

your W seems to be be very immature and not terribly sensative or loving. otherwise she would not be acting out in this simply outrageous manner.

the question is what to do? and of one thing i'm sure...the more you yell, scream and cry the less efective you will be in turning this thing around.

she is showing no respect for you or her marriage because she FEELS no respect. and you are convincing her that she doesn't have to by reacting emotionally to what she's doing...thus confirmiong to her that you're just "old dud" trying to keep her from having a good time...and here's the kicker...she doesn't think she's doing anything wrong!

from where i'm sitting, what you need to do is an 180 right now!

just back off and become less strident in your opinions and how you communicate them to her. no yelling, screaming, crying or arguing! this is an issue that is not one for debate...she will not aknowledge that she is in the wrong and you will not convince her of it..not at this point in time, so don't even try! believe no emotional appeal will work! it will only cause her to think less of you.

what you need to do is "talk to her" in the calmest possible manner and tell her in the softest possible way that her behavior is unacceptible. AND THEN LEAVE IT ALONE!

do not threaten her with anything or say anything negative about wh she is and how she is acting. don't tell her what she must do or about what you will do if she doens't straiten out. instead, i would disconnect from her and let her do whatever she wants.

you can't stop her anyway! you can, however, control how YOU react to what she's doing...so begin right now to show her that you are strong in your resolve and not stupid enough to even discuss her laime excuses and lies! let her see that you see right threw her and just don't want to discuss anything so stupid any more.

i would make social plans of my own with friend and others in general that she doesn't know. i would not be availible to her...hell she doesn't want you right now anyway!

further, i would change my physcial appearence...work out...lose weight or gain weight...get a new hair cut, let your hair grow long...buy yourself some new cloths...and, EXPLAIN NOTHING TO HER...NOTHING!

if she makes any kind of threat or anything else i would simply answere her with the old line..."you must do what you must do and so must I..." and let her think about that!

in any situation, do not move out of your house, do not let her take your children anywhere...in fact, when she does take them out (even on the most mundane appointments) make a point of asking her where she is taking them and when she will be back with them. again, you must do this quietly and respectfully. i would let her know that at this poin, i even have questions as to her qualifications as a mother.

look, what i'm suggesting is that you show her your disaproval...not yell it at her! i'm suggesting that you show her what living in a cold unhappy marriage is all about...a place where both parties choose to go their own way...but you must do it so that the door is always open to reconciliation. i'm suggesting a plan A that lets you live with the situation, with no LB's and still lets you retain your sense of control over YOU. cry if you must but never in front of her. vent if you must but never to her.

by the way, make sure the the OM knows that you won't have him in your home..ever again. and if he's married, let his wife know why. let everybody in the naighborhood know! everybody should know what's going on. put some social pressure on your W and the OM. then go about your business in a respectfull and dignified mannor and watch what happens.

that's my advice and it worked for me, so good luck.

coach

RJP,

After reading your posts I couldn't believe how similar our stories are. Read my under this topic, "MAJOR HELP NEEDED". It's uncanning.

As of today, we've communicated briefly through email; issues about the house and whether or not bills will continued to be paid and how. He's totally and completely abandoned us, in all ways. When he does reply, it's vague and never answers the questions specifically. I just tried calling and of course phones are turned off, they go directly to VM. I'm a bit worried about finances, because for the first time in awhile, I believe he now is having trouble. I've received calls about past due bills, etc. His behavior and actions as of late are so foreign. Par for the course I guess.

It's so hard knowing that they are together at his new place (even though she has her own apt. - only 5 miles away - and he claimed he needed to be alone), and that he hasn't even invited me over or bothered to check in with us. (By us I mean me and my daughter (his step). Very, Very heart breaking.

Last night a friend of mine dragged me out of the house to a fun night spot. Even though I had reservations, I went and it was o.k. We got to talking to an older gentleman, married 46 years and it was very interesting to hear his opinion on this matter. Both him and his wife had, had A's. Of course I started crying about the whole thing. The point of going out was NOT to think about my deal. Oh well.

Today, I'm writing out letters to follow through with plan A, as my last post mentioned. I'm very nervous. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I can totally empathize with you and it's a very screwed up thing that we are all dealing with. If it would be helpful, drop me a line; arnorton13@aol.com
Maybe we can offer each other support. It would be good to get the opposite sex opinion.

Hang in there.

Hello everyone. Well, I told the whole family over the weekend. I need to tell the nieghbors still. She is soooo mad at me. She thinks I'm just being petty and vindictive. She thinks I've gone completely loony and how could I ruin her life like this..??? She thinks I'm trying to turn people against her and drag her thru the mud. She absolutley insists that we ae over, no if's, and's, or but's. She says this little stunt of spreading rumors and confronting the OM has just killed any chance of us working things out. She says she'll never forgive me for this and I owe both her and him an apology. I said I was sorry if it made her feel bad but I wasn't sorry I did it and he was getting no apology! She also told me that I'm not allowed to tell her I love her anymore, I can't touch her, and she is no longer wearing her wedding ring. She also said that if I tell anymore people she would leave and be gone for good. Ifeeling lost today, a little self doubt has trickled in. Don't know if I can save this. I'm working on plan A and have two calls into the Harley's, waiting for reply. What next?

<small>[ September 15, 2003, 08:39 AM: Message edited by: RJP ]</small>

I have another question, do I let her know about plan A and B??? She can't figure out why I'm going aroung airing our dirty laundry. Should I tell her?, or is it better to act in secrecy here?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by RJP:
<strong> She can't figure out why I'm going aroung airing our dirty laundry. Should I tell her?, or is it better to act in secrecy here?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would put a pause on the informing the world part. While that is part fo Dr. Harley's mantra, I know from speaking with Steve that he has some caveats on it. It is always a huge lovebuster, so that has to be factored in to the equation.

What precisely are you telling people? It seems to me that you came up a little short of evidence of a physical affair, no?

If she again responds with the same statements about being finished with the marriage, consider responding back to her:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">'If that is what you want, then so be it'.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The point is that you realize that every threat she issues to you is done not so much out of a real conviction but more out of an emotional response AND the need to control the situation by trying to turn the tables and put the fear of God into you. Don't fall for it and do what Coach recommended to you while at the same time avoiding ALL love busters (angry outbursts, selfish demands, disrespectful judgements).

Well, I've told her folks, sister, my folks, brothers. I wanted to tell the people across the street, as I feel they are the only ones in the nieghborhood I can trust right now, but W was home and made all kinds of threats so I postponed till I talk to Jennifer (Marriage Builders coach...First call sched. for 9 pm teus.!!!). This is what I've been telling people:

W is planning to leave me and the kids. I'm about 99% sure she is having an affair, she is certainly having a deep seeded emotional affar. It is with ____ who lives two houses down from us. The reasons I feel this is an affair are: she spends a lot of time with him and his friends, alot of time alone with him, I've had to go down to his house a couple of times at 3:30 or 4:00 am to get her. She is adamant about there being no PA, and I don't think there has been yet, however I believe there would have been had I not broken things up when I did. She confides in him things that she should be confiding in me, she has the most fun when with him. I've asked her to stop contact with him, but she won't. She gets angry whenever I mention it or try to keep tabs on her. I'm not saying any of this to be mean or to drag her name thru the mud. None of this is out of anger, I fully understand that she never intended for this to happen. What I'm expecting is for you to offer her your support in doing the right thing and ending this so that we can rebuild our marriage. I love my wife and am commited to being married to her forever and making permanat changes to do so. I'm not trying to hurt her, and I don't want you to get angry with her or try to guilt her into anything. All i want is your support for her, she is hurting too. I just want her to do the right thing.

Usually I throw in that she is spinning this whole thing like I'm going coo coo, but I am not. I'm not acting on emotion, this is part of a well documented process to end the affair and rebuild the marriage. Then I usually explain plan A and B. I think this helps to reassure whoever I'm telling this to that I'm sane and not acting malicously but rather out of love. Any suggestions?

<small>[ September 15, 2003, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: RJP ]</small>

RJP,

Again going through the exact same thing. It's good that you have an appt. with Jennifer. Mine is Wednesday. Until then, try to keep contact to a minimum. It sounds like you're still in the same house, so that might be difficult. If you must communicate, do so briefly and without anger or feeling desperate.

It's so hard to deal with our spouses when they are making you feel like you're the one insane or making threats of divorce or never speaking to you again. As cerri told me once, "put your duck suit on and let it roll right off your back".

I'm with you on the Plan A situation. If I continue with the part of exposing the affair to the OW friends, family, work, etc. then I might be in a world of legal hurt. Not sure. I've posted an update on MAJOR HELP NEEDED.

Hang in there until you're counseling session. Let me know if you want to chat.

All the best.

RJP,
getting professional advice is best...NO QUESTION ABOUT IT! but get this and understand it...your W and the OM (and his friends) are up to NO GOOD! you are not crazy and you are not wrong! your Ws behavior is not tolerable!

as to your Ws response to your shedding light on her actions...it's classic! and her threats are classic as well!

my advice is to stay cool! do not be be dragged into an argument with her. look at who she is right now. she's hysterical knowing you've called her on it. she expected you to sit back and take it like a fool! beside, how can you expect to make sense with a person who hangs out to 3 or 4 in the morning with another man and gets crazy over her husband being offended by this kind of behavior?! come on! the lady is in "foggy groggy land!"

your job now is to be firm in your resolve... to be calm and non confrontational...NO MATTER what she says or does! and by the way,...at this point you shouldn't be telling her you love her or trying to have sex with her! what you need to be doing is to disconnect until she comes back to some kind of reality. anything else you do will offend her and only anger her more.

and one last thought...don't you believe that she's moving out so fast. more likely she will try to be so mean and offensive to you that it will force you to leave...and you MUST NOT! under any circumstances leave.

now is the time to show her what you're made of. the day will come when she finally compares this plyer down the street to you and when the day comes she must think of you as a man who is not begging, pleading, yelling or screaming. let her think of you as the man who maintaned his dignity and resolve under the worst kind of pressure.

coach

Exposing is NOT a lovebuster. A love buster is a habit that destroys the feelings of love and generally speaking must fall into the categories or Demands, disrespect, angry outbursts, independent behavior or annoying habits. It is not simply something that makes our partner feel bad or upset... if that were the case then honesty on many occassions would be a love buster, and it is not.

Although a case could be made that exposing an affair is independent behavior it doesn't meet the full criteria for being so. Independent behavior as a love buster is something that one spouse does regardless of how the other person feels about it AND is detrimental to the marriage.

Exposing the affair is not detrimental to the marriage; it is part of what the faithful partner must do in order to help hasten the end of the affair. Plan A is a strategy to end the affair. Included in and essential to Plan A are: eliminating your own love busters, meeting needs if possible (generally not likely though), confronting the WS with what you know, how you know it and how you feel about it, and exposing the affair to the scrutiny of people around you.

Those things combined are a powerful tool. An affair is an addiction. The chemical process in the brain and the behaviors are nearly identical to other addictions... as is the rationale that unfaithful partners use to justify what they are doing. Confronting and exposing is a very similar strategy to the intervention we are all familiar with in cases of substance addiction. And in fact, I have my suspicions that it modelled after that... Bill Harley once owned several addiction clinics/programs here in the TC.

In any event, working to end a partner's affair should be a one/two punch type of thing. The longer an affair goes on the more entrenched it becomes, the harder it is for the WS to get out of it (again, just like other addictions), the more accepted it becomes by people around you and the nore difficult reconciliation or recovery would be when it finally does end.

My only caveat to exposure is if the WS has ended the affair, sent the n/c and has agreed to all the conditions of recovery and is demonstrating that s/he is serious about following through. Even then I agree with Bill Harley that the spouse of the OP should know so that they can take steps to repair their marriage.

C

IMO you have told enough people about the affair. Telling the neighbors is going a little bid overboard. You need to get your emotions under control. Go to your doctor and get an Rx for antidepressants. What you need to remember is that you cannot control her actions. You can only control what kind of marriage you are willing to accept. My other advice is to consult a lawyer and make sure that you are protected if she decides to go for a divorce. You don't want to wake up in the morning and find that she has taken all the money out of your account.

Well, I've told her folks, sister, my folks, brothers. I wanted to tell the people across the street, as I feel they are the only ones in the nieghborhood I can trust right now, but W was home and made all kinds of threats

The reason she is making threats is because you are threatening her addiction. It's not the rational anger of someone who is being injured in some way. It is the anger born of fear that an addiction will be taken away.

When I work with clients on exposure I make sure they know ahead of time what to expect. That there will be lots of anger (often very fiery and loud.... we refer to it as the mushroom cloud effect), lots of threats and intimidation, and lots of blaming. Suddenly you are the bad guy who ruined the WS's life.... and the fact that they are having an illicit relationship has absolutely nothing to do with it.

I also make sure that people know this kind of anger doesn't last. It's an interesting phenomenon that real love busters... demands, disrespect, loss of temper, dishonesty... will cause anger and hurt that is remembered on some level pretty much forever. But anger that is a result of the things you do with respect to end the affair is often forgotten once the affair is over. Anger from confronting and exposing is surface.... and it's not your spouse so much who is angry but the person your spouse has become as a result of the addiction.

This is what I've been telling people:

It's all very good. Caring and respectful. What kind of response are you getting?

Usually I throw in that she is spinning this whole thing like I'm going coo coo, but I am not. I'm not acting on emotion, this is part of a well documented process to end the affair and rebuild the marriage. Then I usually explain plan A and B. I think this helps to reassure whoever I'm telling this to that I'm sane and not acting malicously but rather out of love. Any suggestions?

The only thing you might want to add to that is a suggestion that they check out Surviving an Affair by Dr. Harley to see that you really do know what you're talking about. It helps to have a PhD behind you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think you asked too if you should talk to your wife about PlA and PlB, and I would say not at this time. She isn't going to want to hear it and teaching your spouse falls under the category of Disrespectful Judgments.

C

I would hold off on the atty unless you are forced to get one. Once they get in the picture it gets adversarial and ugly. I like to see people wait as long as possible and hopefully that won't need to happen.... ever.

Dr. Harley has this to say about exposing an affair: "Put it on the evening news."

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by coach3530:
<strong>RJP,
getting professional advice is best...NO QUESTION ABOUT IT! but get this and understand it...your W and the OM (and his friends) are up to NO GOOD! you are not crazy and you are not wrong! your Ws behavior is not tolerable!

as to your Ws response to your shedding light on her actions...it's classic! and her threats are classic as well!

my advice is to stay cool! do not be be dragged into an argument with her. look at who she is right now. she's hysterical knowing you've called her on it.

coach</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">RJP,
Coach is exactly right. I went through this with my WW last Fall. In the shock of finding out that they were intimate multiple times, I blasted an e-mail to some close friends and family exposing the whole thing. She said EXACTLY the same things to me and acted EXACTLY the same way. I didn't tell everyone, but I told enough people for her to tell me I had no class. These people I told actually ended up helping me get through the situation. They all offered their support and it made a big difference for me. You are NOT wrong, but she'll do anything right now to try to pin the blame on you.

My WW actually continued the A for another 10 months and when I found out this time, I didn't have to tell anyone new. The word spread quickly and her entire family now knows. I honestly think this will help her stay away from the OM because she's made promise that the A is over to them, too. If she goes back, she has to face everyone again. I believe that exposing the affair is a necessary first step to getting the WS to accept responsibility for what they've done.

Hang in there --it will get better when she begins to see through the fog.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>Dr. Harley has this to say about exposing an affair: "Put it on the evening news."</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True.

However, I know from conversations with Steve Harley that he has reservations about exposure. It can result in violence, for one thing.

In this case, I would be concerned that RJP not "paint a picture" of a physical affair to their entire network of friends when he does not know if that has occurred.I could understand his W's anger if that was the case.

While we could debate whether legitimate exposure of an affair could be considered a lovebuster, surely spreading inaccurate tales about ones spouse would be.

I have never seen anything in an exposure letter that says you should paint a picture of what the people in the affair are doing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Somehow I fell asleep, waking suddenly at about 4 am. Fire was out, everybody gone, no wife at home. I put my shoes on and went over to "Friends" house. I knocked once and opened the door to find her with her back to me in the entry way and her glasses on the step. He was running up the stairs and dashing around the corner. If it hadn't moved to PA it surely would have if I'd been 5 min. later. She starts screaming at me to leave. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's an affair, who cares what kind?

Write a letter and expose the affair. You need not specify that it is an "emotional" or a "physical" affair. It is an affair, plain and simple. That is not inaccurate, so passes even Mike's muster.

Mike,

However, I know from conversations with Steve Harley that he has reservations about exposure. It can result in violence, for one thing.

Yes it is true that Bill and Steve tend to differ on this topic. I, as I'm sure you know tend to be pretty much in line with what Dr. Harley advocates. It works.

In this case, I would be concerned that RJP not "paint a picture" of a physical affair to their entire network of friends when he does not know if that has occurred.I could understand his W's anger if that was the case.

I would agree entirely. And I am very adamant that exposure be "what you know, how you know it, how you feel about those things" AND a request for help and support during this time. I also suggest that the BS ask that friends and family encourage the WS to end the relationship with the other person.

Often I help my clients write these kinds of emails or script what they are going to say. It's short and to the point and always about themselves. No name calling, no bashing.

It goes something like this: "My spouse is having a relationship with ____. It is painful and offensive to me. I want to save my marriage, keep my family together and I'm willing to do what it takes to be the spouse s/he needs and deserves. However I can't do those things with ___ in the picture. Please support me in whatever way you feel comfortable and if you find it in your heart to talk to my spouse please encourage him/her to end this R and recommit to our marriage."

While we could debate whether legitimate exposure of an affair could be considered a lovebuster, surely spreading inaccurate tales about ones spouse would be.

Well according to the man who coined the term and the concept of Love Buster the first most certainly is not. And the second most certainly would be.

All the best,

C

I suppose my feelings on this also come from an incident before I got married with a previous girlfriend. We had a falling out (no OPs involved), which I thought was minor and workable, but she had blabbed our problems around to all our friends. I felt betrayed, and when she wanted to reconcile I couldn't see my way clear to trusting her again. When my W and I had trouble a few years back, she was adamant that we keep it between us, and that was one of the saving graces, I think.

Exposing an affair is a major strategic move as well. If the OP is married, you may end the affair, or you may wind up with that person tossed out in the street and totally "available" for an even deeper relationship.

All this presupposes that nobody grabs a gun. Also, in this case, it is all in a neighborhood with the children to think about as well.

I totally understand the need here for stopping this relationship, and on the other board I counseled RJP to move, which I still think is the only way to recover from an OM two doors down.

But...I would rather see a Plan A foundation laid, and then a no contact plan put forward to the BS before going nuclear. (Or public.) That's just me. I suspect that if RJP was talking with Jennifer or Steve they would also counsel a more moderate approach.