I want to throw open a question to everyone. How does one define an affair??? <P>My H has had a typical sexual affair years ago - easy to define!! He is now consumed with feelings for another woman (read my profile). I consider this to be an emotional affair, and have had feedback from this forum that says I'm on the right track. He also has had several friendships with women which I believe have overstepped the mark as far as friendship goes, considering he is a married man. In one of these there was holding and kissing which was more than friendly, as a comfort when she was going through a bad patch(she was a friend, felt guilty about it ever since, and SHE told me about it - don't think he considered he did anything wrong). Other friendships involve taking the women flowers on their birthdays, talking to them about our relationship, meeting for dinner / coffee, hugging etc. I believe my H has never learnt not to overstep the boundries between friendship and something else, but he was angry when I suggested he had "emotional affairs" with women. Says he likes to relate to women in this way - they feel like they can talk to him etc. etc. etc. Am I getting a bee in my bonnet over nothing? I know even with the current situation, he feels like he has done nothing wrong - has even told me "they haven't done anything", and feels like this is ok. Not ok when he feels like she is the one person he wants to spend his life with! Need input please.<P> Am wondering whether we can ever be happy - especially as he has no intention of not having women friends in the future. - Should I cut my losses totally?? (Part way there if you read my recent posts in other peoples threads). Or am I just paranoid??<P>PLEASE HELP.<p>[This message has been edited by sosad (edited August 24, 1999).]

sosad - at one point, anyway, can't say for sure now, I was also dealing w/ "just friends". Difference is, my H realized it was wrong. Yours probably does too, but admitting it, to you and himself is an entirely different issue - means he'll have to give up something he doesn't want to give up. <P>After careful consideration, I think an affair is any relationship that takes away from the relationship he is supposed to have w/ you - sexual or emotional. A lot of us have learned the hard way that the friendship, the close friendship, the comforting - ah.... here comes BIG trouble.<P>Sorry you're hurting now. Don't give up just yet though, unless you feel you have to. Maybe you can find a way to get through to him that'll make him understand. I sure hope so. Good luck to you.<P>Lori<P>

sosad -- I want to second the thoughts that lostva gave you. I just responded to another thread on essencially (sp?) the same topic, but lostva did a much better job of explaining it than I did.<P>God Bless

sosad,<P>Your H may very well be into emotional affairs, but it's not conclusive from your descriptions.<P>Whatever his relationships are, he probably won't want to discontinue them. He may be drawn to females as friends to give him a sense of being accepted and, to a certain point, loved by the opposite sex. It could be an ego booster.<P>My advice is to keep a close watch on who he befriends and how open she is to being affectionate to your H. Signs of affection from her are more dangerous than his flirtations.<BR>

I was never really upset that my H seemed to be friendly with women, until he crossed the 'line' with one. now, yeah, i'd say that any energy he spends on FF's (female friends) is a detraction from the marriage. I guess it is the level of comfort you have with it. <P>------------------<BR>for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, for richer or for poorer, till death do us part.<P><BR>

This was in a MB Newsletter<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi050_sample.html" TARGET=_blank>www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi050_sample.html</A> <BR>“============================================<BR>3. Food for thought -- What is an Affair? by Steven W. Harley, M.S.<BR>============================================<P>Just the other day, I again found myself thinking about the question "What is an affair?" Understanding that the left hemisphere of the brain is used for more logic and systematic thinking and the right hemisphere of the brain is used for more abstract and emotional thinking, here is how I processed the question. (Please, no email offering assessments on possible mental disorders that I may have.)<P>Left Brain: In the context of marital infidelity, an affair is when a married individual has intercourse with a person to whom they are not married.<P>Right Brain: No, wait. Must it be intercourse? Or, could it include any kind of "sexual contact?"<P>Left Brain: Hmm... Alright. How about this: In the context of marital infidelity, an affair is when a married individual has sexual contact with a person to whom they are not married.<P>Right Brain: No, wait. What about the emotional element. What about the feeling?<P>Left Brain: Hmm... Alright. How about this: In the context of marital infidelity, an affair is when a married individual has sexual contact and emotional attraction to a person to whom they are not married.<P>Right Brain: No, wait. What about a "one night stand?" Emotional? Lust, maybe. But, emotional? Apples and oranges.<P>Left Brain: Hmm... Alright. How about this: In the context of marital infidelity, an affair is when a married individual has sexual contact and/or emotional attraction to a person to whom they are not married.<P>Right Brain: Emotional attraction? Any emotional attraction? Really?<P>Left Brain: Hmm... Alright. How about this: In the context of marital infidelity, an affair is when a married individual has sexual contact and/or inappropriate emotional attraction to a person to whom they are not married.<P>Right Brain: Wait! Why are we doing this?<P>Left Brain: You know. We get asked this question all the time. People want to know if they or their spouse is guilty of committing an "affair" in order to understand what just happened and then to begin the recovery process.<P>Right Brain: Hmm... How about this: In the context of marital infidelity, an affair is however the offended spouse defines it.<P>Left Brain: I hate it when you do that.<P>(Again, please, no email offering assessments on possible mental disorders that I may have. I already know of them.)<P>Discussions (or arguments) about what to include or exclude from the definition of marital infidelity is an effective way to get lost down a path where "Left Brainers" typically dwell and where "Right Brainers" typically get offended. The bottom line to the question is, "Specifically, what was it about the inappropriate relationship' that caused the damage in the marriage?" Was it the sex (insert definition here), the emotional bond, the amount of time spent together, the physical attraction? What was it? Talk about it. Get a clear understanding. If you don't understand how or why it happened and why it hurt the spouse, the probability of it happening again is very high.<P>Asking others to define the term for you is not the answer. If you boil it all down, you are left with the fact that you both need to work together in developing a plan to prevent this "beast" from ever attacking your marriage again. If you don't know what it looks like, if you don't know where it hides, if you don't know what its touch feels like, then how will you ever protect your marriage from its venom again?<P>Food for thought.“<p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited August 25, 1999).]

Chris -- Very well said. I wish I could express my self as well as you do.<P>God Bless

I forget who the Supreme Court Justice was who said, "I can't define pornography...but I know it when I see it."<P>Same thing goes for an emotional affair.<P>If the spouse feels it's an emotional affair, it's an emotional affair.<P>Don't tell me a spouse can't tell the difference. We can. My H has had female friends on his last job, and only one is perceived by me to be a threat.<P>A lot has to do with the willingness of the "friend" to be a "couple friend", not just a friend of the spouse.

ES,<BR>Wish icould take dredit for it. It was Steve Harley who wrote that though.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

sosad, I'm so sorry for what you're experiencing. I don't think you're paranoid, just in touch with your intuition. I'm sure there's more to it than your H's female friends, but I wouldn't stop trying based on this issue alone!<P>My therapist said once that ANY relationship with a member of the opposite sex that excludes your spouse is inappropriate. Is that the definition of an affair? I don't know, but I don't care. Does it have to labelled an affair to ask your spouse to stop?<P>Thanks, Chris, for that newsletter info! My H and I were just discussing that!<P>I second what everyone else has been saying! Lizbeth

Sosad,<BR>Well, I was going to tell you what I was told when I first came here..... but everyone else has beat me to it! <BR>It is an "affair" if the offended spouse feels/thinks/says it is. I really like the way Chris put it in his post. <P>It doesn't really matter if your H thinks it is a problem.... it matters if YOU do. He should immediately stop doing these things when he knows they hurt you. <P>I really wish my H would have gotten that point! I would have been a lot happier, and a lot nicer to be around! Oh well, maybe someday he will wake up to what I have said.<P>B<P>------------------<BR>My favorite quote....<BR>"Hello, this is God. I will be handeling your problems today. I will not need your help, so sit back and have a good day."<BR>

sosad,<BR>we are going through a similar situation. although i don't think my H has done the deed yet, he has clearly overstepped his boundaries in relationships with other women. i want to tell you to go with your gut feelings. i had him tell me i was trippin' and also had a pastor convince me that i was being paranoid. the result was women's numbers,letters,pictures,phone calls, and possible unknown rendezvous. i had nightmares because i knew what was happening but everyone else around me kept telling me he was innocent (including my H himself). so whatever you are feeling go with it and act on that and what GOD tells you to do.

sosad,<P>Again as I said before, if I didn't know any better, I'd swear you were my wife! Your marital situation, the way your husband relates to women, the two affairs (past and present)... all too eerily familiar!<P>I have always found it easy to be friends with women. I've had what I considered to be very close female friends and I've never felt anything romantic for them.<P>This second affair has taught me that it is VERY dangerous to be so close to someone of the opposite sex, and that I obviously must modify my behavior to save myself from that happening in the future. This OW started out just like any other female friend I've ever had. We were good friends and enjoyed each other's company, much like I enjoyed my male friend's company. In fact, many times she joined my male friends and I for lunch at work.<P>I don't know what happened exactly, but at some point our friendship crossed the line. Even though we both knew we needed to keep it platonic, our feelings for each other were deeper than that "just friends" thing. We wanted to be with each other all the time. We thought about what it would be like to be in a relationship together, even though we never acted on it.<P>In a nutshell, that is an emotional affair. And I'll bet your husband knows EXACTLY what one is too, don't you doubt that. He's just in denial. <P>--airheart<p>[This message has been edited by airheart (edited August 25, 1999).]

I agree with airheart. Looking back, I was into an emotional affair with a man for several years. My H always complained about our friendship, but I wouldn't listen. The fact that I finally had a physical connection with someone only states the obvious. My marriage has been in trouble for years. My <BR>H and I both knew it, and acted inappropriately with people of the opposite sex. Almost makes me afraid to have any friends who aren't female - and my husband vice versa. We both feel that way. It's tough when you're out there working among men and woman.

Hey n_b...<P>My wife complained as well. I knew it bugged her, but I didn't know how MUCH it bugged her. I just considered it no big deal (much the way sosad's husband does).<P>However, I still think it's possible to have friends of the opposite sex. You just have to limit how close you become. No going to lunch alone. No carpooling alone. No flirting. No discussion of sex or marital problems. etc. etc. etc... I'm not exactly paranoid, but I'm now well aware of the affects such friendships can have!<P>--airheart

hey airheart -<P>I'm so scared now about friendships that I honestly wasn't gonna reply to YOU! It is easy to go over the bounds, sometimes without realizing it. But when I think back, like I said, I think I knew, just didn't want to admit it. BTW, and this may come under the heading of TMI (too much information) but the person I had that too-intimate friendship with was our pastor. I was the church secretary. Talk about a double-whammy! I'm out of the church (for five years now) and it still hurts to think about it. When the pastor said he loved me, I thought he meant in a Christian way. He didn't. Life is so hard sometimes...

Many good responses,<P>My long version is as follows:<P>If a spouse has to lie, deceive or make up wonderful stories [{such as they stopped on the way home from work to rescue a bus full of nuns that was on fire [the bus, not the nuns}] and it was upside down on the highway helped Squad 51 with the rescue,treatment and triage of the injured and this most rediculous fabrication will be backed up by their friends and/or family at the drop of a cheap hat that was on sale at K-Mart in the clearance isle in an attempt to excuse and account for the lost time period for their whereabouts and activities to the person they pleadged their life to be with someone else. <P>Short version:<P>If they have to lie to us, it's wrong.<P>Sorry not trying to make fun of our situations but I will not wallow in self pitty. No offence intended.<P>The short version is what I live by.<P>Wishing us all the best,<P>Medic

Thanks so much everyone - confirmed things I have always felt. My H knows how much his "friendships" with other women hurt me, but he wasn't / isn't prepared to stop them because they feel so good for him - they "understand " him in a way I have never been able to (according to him). Sometimes seems like an absolute waste of time even trying to work on our marriage with that sort of attitude towards your W's feelings. In fact, my H has said he wants to stop hurting me, - so looks like he's getting out of our marriage to do that, not work on it. He doesn't want to stop the way he relates to women - I guess he hopes one day he will find someone whom he relates to like that who is unattatched - none of his friends has been. Am I supposed to feel eternally grateful that he is doing this for me??

Bringing this to the top for Medic238

Just realized you have already seen this old post Medic238 - never mind!