Hi Cerri,

I had to copy and paste over here, I was told it would be easier to find you here. I'm sure you don't know me, or MAY have read a thread of mine. My thread is currently running in recovery and GQII, I do not know how to get it all over here. I also do NOT know what to from here. I did confront my H regarding what I found on pc and he of course denied, EVEN once I told him what EVERY single one of his notes contained. He also stated he did NOT want to talk about it. We are scheduled for Christian counseling tomorrow, however I don't know what to do. Does it make sense to still go to counseling, while he's still in fog.

He has already stated "I cannot say counseling will change my mind, but I am willing to go." I was reluctant to call on you for help, I am new here and my situation may not be that serious for you. However, I am hurting, angry, and afraid, and very ready to kick him out of the house.

Thank you
LHE

Luv's threads from GQII & Recovery:

Title: PLS HELP-RECOVERY FAILED, HUSBAND IS LEAVING..AGAIN!!!!

Luv's GQII thread

Luv's Recovery thread

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanx Orchid,

I'm not as computer saavy as I thought I was!!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi Hazel,

I have seen your name over there, but I'm not familiar with your story. I'll check out the links and skim quickly.

I did confront my H regarding what I found on pc and he of course denied, EVEN once I told him what EVERY single one of his notes contained. He also stated he did NOT want to talk about it.

Very common, I'd be surprised if he didn't.

We are scheduled for Christian counseling tomorrow, however I don't know what to do. Does it make sense to still go to counseling, while he's still in fog.

Let me read your links and see. Probably I'll have more questions. Are you ok with posting here at JFO?

I was reluctant to call on you for help, I am new here and my situation may not be that serious for you.

You know, I'd be tickled to have a request for something not that serious... so don't worry about it. But if it's infidelity, there's no such thing as not serious.

However, I am hurting, angry, and afraid, and very ready to kick him out of the house.

And that is all the reason you need to ask for help. Another thing you might want to consider is giving Dr. Harley a call on the radio show. Mondays and Thursdays, 1 pm CT, call at the top of the hour to make sure you get on. Here's the number, be sur to adjust for time zone if you decide to call.

Ok, off to read a bit... then we'll see where you are.

C

LOL.... oops.... here's the number 1-888-332-5169 ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

1pm CT Mondays and Thursdays. That's today, BTW. And they are wonderful caring people.

C (blonde... sheesh)

Hi Cerri,

Thank you soooooooo much for responding. I wanted to give you a quick update before you post again. I spoke with my H last night, SUPRISINGLY he was very talkative. (even in a good mood) He said that yes he did lie about the site he visited (no, it isn't a porn site, and yes he leaves messages telling the women they are pretty, but he is not going to cross the line nor would he EVER meet up with them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> (how do i know that?)

(we were speaking very calmly <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )I told him that he DID cross the line, by doing this because it bothers me, and it makes me feel like he has the DESIRE to cheat. (he never even knew how to use the pc before)He told me that he feels like I shouldn't go into his things, and I have nothing to worry about. ( he just doesn't get it) I explained to him that secrets are an absolute no-no, he already knows that. He told me that we re in a much better place, than we were last year this time, and he wants to go to counseling even though he feels how he feels, AND he kept reassuring me that he is not cheating on me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I don't know what to believe. In the past, while in A and prior, he didn't give a sh** what I thought. It was a task to get him to talk to me, esp to point things out and tell him what was affecting me. He would be rude and very quiet, but last night he came to me. I hope I'm not reading into anything or that I sound ridiculous, I am just very confused..VERY

Thank you
LHE

Also, thank you for the telephone number. However, I won't be able to call today, but will definately call thursday. We just moved to a new apt, and don't have a phone as of yet.

Ok, first thanks Orchid for linking those threads, very helpful.

Let me see if I have this right because I did just skim quickly.

Your husband had an affair and was living away from home for a while. The woman he had the A with did not know that he was married at the time.

Supposedly that A ended.

Since then there has been some cybersex use in terms of chat rooms and such?

And I didn't see what it was that he was arrested for... what was that and what has happened since.

When the first A ended, what kinds of things did you do for recovery?

Where are you now? Is he still at home even though he threatens to leave? Is there still some sort of cybersex use? And possibility of another in person A?

What kind of research did you do to find this counselor?

C

Hi Cerri,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Since then there has been some cybersex use in terms of chat rooms and such?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, Cerri there wasn't any cybersex at all. This site is not a pornographic site either. It is a site that is dedicated to indiv creating t heir own webpages and you are able to leave personal notes. I found that he was leaving personal notes for females (with pics on their pages) complimenting them, asking them their locations, and asking could they talk further.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> And I didn't see what it was that he was arrested for... what was that and what has happened since.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He had actually had a warrant for driving with a suspended license and was picked up on it. He was actually IN South Carolina with OW prior to this because he was actually running from the warrant, didn't want to face the 90 day sentence. Since then he has served his time, and he came home 5/03.

Prior to that, and prior to his incarceration we tried communicating(after 12/02 d-day i stated i wanted nothing to do with romantically) it wasn't really until 4/03 that I really decided I would give it a try, but would still communicate with H via the phone (WOULD NOT GO VISIT IN PRISON)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When the first A ended, what kinds of things did you do for recovery?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is where the problem began Cerri. My H filled out the ENQ and Domestic Support is like his number one EN. I do admit I wasn't doing these things as reg as I should have, but I didn't realize how bitter and angry I still was regarding the A. I was Lb'ing all over the place as well as bring up other woman constantly and saying some degrading things, and this may have been my way of punishing my H in retaliation for what I was feeling.

I really was pushing him away from me. Then, in June 2003 I told my H that I didn't that I could NOT stay married to him anymore and asked for a divorce. HE refused and told me that more than anything he wants his M. Anything after that is a blur, we were still cordial to each other but arguing more frequently, but also still having sex.

Then in July 2003, my H tells me he doesn't feel happy with me. I don't suspect A because H is with me 85% of the time and I don't have that gut feeling. (that i know so well) He tells me that he SICK of my mouth and doesn't know what he's going to do. I try to change somewhat, I actually stopped showing I care, and we became roommates right under my nose. We haven't had sex since July and he is not all that interested.

I ask him if he is contacting OW, and he tells me that SHE is not an issue for us. He says it's me. I ask him if he has found another OW, he tells me that-that is my problem I think everything has something to do with another woman. He is frustrated, but being nice. He tells me he's being nice to that we can break it off easily.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Where are you now? Is he still at home even though he threatens to leave? Is there still some sort of cybersex use? And possibility of another in person A?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fast forward to now, I have been reading, reading, reading this board like crazy. I have been doing an ok Plan A, and he does notice some changes. I told him I love him and am now committed to truly working on our M. He hears NONE of this and does NOT want to be M anymore at all. I ask again about another OW, he adamantly denies and tells me that he is tired of trying he feels like we have tried a thousand times and nothing has changes.

I ask why is he so adamant, and will not even give US one month. He says if he does that then I will feel like "we're back together." WHAT DOES THAT MEAN???

Yes, he is still at home but we don't have alot of money so he will be getting a room he says. As far as still leaving notes, he hasn't in the last couple of days. I think there's always a possibility of another A, but I have no proof.

9/18/03

Went to see HORRIBLE christian MC. I found this counselor through a christian organization near my home. I don't even want to go all the way in depth, but this counselor basically told my H if he doesn't want to be married anymore then we may have to end the marriage. He also told my H not to be unfaithful " WHILE IN THE HOUSE" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I'm crushed Cerri.

After counseling I told my H that I love him and need his help to deal with moving past the A. I told him that our M is important to me as well as he and would like to give my best to try to make it work. I ask him to please be honest if there is OW, he says "No, why does everything you say center around another woman?" I tell him the things he has shown make me feel this way.

He tells me we have our own issues that what he's feeling has NOTHING to do with anyone else, he is JUST TIRED OF THIS. I tell him if he is having any type of contact with another female, then it does. He doesn't even want to talk about it, and told me I am making things worse, by talking about this everyday. I cry, he didn't wnat to have sex (i really wanted the closeness), i cry some more, we have sex...and I'm going crazy feeling the same way as I did on dday. What do I do????

<small>[ September 19, 2003, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: luvhazeleyes ]</small>

Hi Hazel,

No, Cerri there wasn't any cybersex at all. This site is not a pornographic site either. It is a site that is dedicated to indiv creating t heir own webpages and you are able to leave personal notes. I found that he was leaving personal notes for females (with pics on their pages) complimenting them, asking them their locations, and asking could they talk further.

Ahhhhh.... so he is making inappropriate advances in a place that is not meant to be a dating space? What kinds of responses did he get?


Prior to that, and prior to his incarceration we tried communicating(after 12/02 d-day i stated i wanted nothing to do with romantically) it wasn't really until 4/03 that I really decided I would give it a try, but would still communicate with H via the phone (WOULD NOT GO VISIT IN PRISON)

Ok, so he left and was living with OW and then you agreed that you would reconsider the M this spring. But there were no conditions for recovery and no discussion about what would need to change so that you could both be happy in the marriage?

That is where the problem began Cerri. My H filled out the ENQ and Domestic Support is like his number one EN. I do admit I wasn't doing these things as reg as I should have, but I didn't realize how bitter and angry I still was regarding the A.

So are you doing those things now? And was there any discussion about the conditions that allowed the A to begin and continue and then how you would eliminate those things going forward?

Meeting needs is great, but honesty, protection and POJA need to come first. They are the foundation for meeting needs. Now of course you can meet needs and work on those things at the same time, but you can't meet needs and not do those things and have a good outcome.

I was Lb'ing all over the place as well as bring up other woman [b]constantly and saying some degrading things, and this may have been my way of punishing my H in retaliation for what I was feeling. [/b]

Are ya done doing that now?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

What other love busters do you think are a problem?

I really was pushing him away from me. Then, in June 2003 I told my H that I didn't that I could NOT stay married to him anymore and asked for a divorce. HE refused and told me that more than anything he wants his M. Anything after that is a blur, we were still cordial to each other but arguing more frequently, but also still having sex.

So this was where there really was an opportunity for some intervention and some change.

Then in July 2003, my H tells me he doesn't feel happy with me. I don't suspect A because H is with me 85% of the time and I don't have that gut feeling.

I would suspect, and I could very well be wrong, but I suspect that your LBers were getting to him and wearing away at not only his feelings towards you but his resolve. I'm NOT saying that makes a past or present A ok, just commenting on the dynamics.

He tells me that he SICK of my mouth and doesn't know what he's going to do. I try to change somewhat, I actually stopped showing I care, and we became roommates right under my nose. We haven't had sex since July and he is not all that interested.

So you are seesawing between conflict (arguing and being rude) and withdrawal... appearing not to care. Have you looked at the LBQ at all? I would not do this as a couple activity, it's very draining and very stressful, but I would think about my own LBers and then work on a plan to eliminate them.

Before the A did you have a problem with losing your temper or being disrespectful?

I ask him if he is contacting OW, and he tells me that SHE is not an issue for us. He says it's me. I ask him if he has found another OW, he tells me that-that is my problem I think everything has something to do with another woman.

Well, that may be true. But without other conditions to protect you you are kind of left hanging in the breeze. If you knew that you were being protected this issue might lessen quite a bit.

He is frustrated, but being nice. He tells me he's being nice to that we can break it off easily.

There's no such thing as breaking it off easily.

Fast forward to now, I have been reading, reading, reading this board like crazy. I have been doing an ok Plan A, and he does notice some changes.

Ok, but PlA is NOT where you need to be. At least not technically. You may need to use some PlA strategies for a BRIEF time to get him reengaged, but what you really need is just some basic MB concepts at work.

I told him I love him and am now committed to truly working on our M. He hears NONE of this and does NOT want to be M anymore at all.

Don't tell.... show. Eliminate LBers, meet needs... DS is one that you CAN meet even if there is an A or deep w/d.... what are his other needs?

I ask again about another OW, he adamantly denies and tells me that he is tired of trying he feels like we have tried a thousand times and nothing has changes.

Asking is pointless. It's like an accusation. You need to work on being honest about how you feel, we need to talk about that, and negotiating for what you want and need... and a big piece of that is feeling safe. Accountability.

I ask why is he so adamant, and will not even give US one month. He says if he does that then I will feel like "we're back together." WHAT DOES THAT MEAN???

Is he there? Then don't ask. Just do it. Behave as if. Don't have a RT (relationship talk). Be courteous, be calm, meet needs and we'll work on the other parts.

Yes, he is still at home but we don't have alot of money so he will be getting a room he says.

DO NOT bring it up. Every day that he is there is an opportunity to show that you can be the wife he wants. But you won't do that by talking about it. Clean up the house, put on something nice (not over the top, just clean and neat and not sweats), make a nice dinner and just chat about the day.

As far as still leaving notes, he hasn't in the last couple of days. I think there's always a possibility of another A, but I have no proof.

Then let's watch behavior. And talk about your reactions and honesty skills.

Went to see HORRIBLE christian MC. I found this counselor through a christian organization near my home.

Don't even get me started..... I've heard incredible horror stories. Because one is a pastor or minister or whatever does NOT mean that one knows what it takes to guide a couple toward saving their marriage. I have a list of questions at my site that everyone should ask before they hire someone. If they don't pass I don't care what church position they hold they aren't going to be helpful.

I don't even want to go all the way in depth, but this counselor basically told my H if he doesn't want to be married anymore then we may have to end the marriage. He also told my H not to be unfaithful " [b]WHILE IN THE HOUSE" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I'm crushed Cerri. [/b]

I would be too. And angry. That would be an incredibly unethical position for a mundane counselor to take and it's unforgivable for a church counselor.

I ask him to please be honest if there is OW, he says "No, why does everything you say center around another woman?" I tell him the things he has shown make me feel this way.

Then instead of asking you need to say, "When you do such and such I am frightened because when that happened in the past you were with OW."

You guys sound like you are chasing your tails when it comes to getting anywhere. So if what you are doing isn't working, then try something else.

Does that help at all?

C

Cerri,

Ahhhhh.... so he is making inappropriate advances in a place that is not meant to be a dating space? What kinds of responses did he get?

The responses are usually pretty vague. "thank you for the compliment; im from such and such" things like that. It hasn't gone over the top, however I believe with continuous communication it could.

Ok, so he left and was living with OW and then you agreed that you would reconsider the M this spring. But there were no conditions for recovery and no discussion about what would need to change so that you could both be happy in the marriage?

No, there were no real dicussions. The only thing he told me prior to coming home was that he knows I have many questions and he would answer any and all. He told me that he is 100% committed to working on the marriage, and he is NEVER leaving again. The only step we did take was filling out the ENQ. And he tells me that his only real needs are ds, admiration, and sf.

So are you doing those things now? And was there any discussion about the conditions that allowed the A to begin and continue and then how you would eliminate those things going forward?

Yes, I am doing these things now (DS the most), more now after he told me he wanted to leave and didn't want to be married anymore. However, he doesn't really want SF and I think if I tell him now that I do appreciate him and everything he does, he will think I'm being phony. He had left prior to the A started, (confirmed with date from OW, she didn't know he was married-she's from another state where he was staying) and told me he left because I became a severe nag and didn't know how to talk to him. Yes, I can be very disrespectful, overbearing, and domineering sometimes. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Yes, this was a problem before the A.

Meeting needs is great, but honesty, protection and POJA need to come first. They are the foundation for meeting needs. Now of course you can meet needs and work on those things at the same time, but you can't meet needs and not do those things and have a good outcome.

I actually let him read your post and he is NOT interested, as least thats the feeling I'm getting. He did ask what POJA was and I let him read the information regarding this, and he showed no emotion one way or another. He just told me he has no more energy to put into this M AT ALL. I think I remember reading a post you wrote and you said something like, when a partner doesn't want to work on anything or save anything, then they are usually having an A.
My husband is adamant about no affair, just tired of trying.

Then let's watch behavior. And talk about your reactions and honesty skills.

His behavior is strange. When I try to be affectionate he pulls away, and he's not really interested in SF. This is what is REALLY making me think there is an A going on. He loves SF. lol I tried to have SF the night before last and he kept sayig he was tired <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . I really was upset and began to cry, but not because he didn't want to, but because I feel like I'm losing him to another woman. I feel absolutely ridiculous for doing that.

We have both actually agreed to no relationship talk, but it is VERY hard for me. He seems pretty "done" with the whole thing. I think the only reason why he is still here is because he is getting himself situated. If he is not willing to participate in POJA or anything, what MB concepts do I need to implement besides meeting needs.

Does that help at all?

Yes, you've been a big help. I wanted to go on your website, but couldn't find a link. Can you give it to me please

<small>[ September 20, 2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: luvhazeleyes ]</small>

***bumping for cerri****

Cerri, I am almost positive I am ready to file for D from this man, seriously. I found out that the online chat has turned into sexual advances, that I will NOT deal with that. I confronted him, he said nothing. I told him that I am filing on Tues, he still said nothing. I notice he is trying to be nicer, and calmer. I will not stay on this roller coaster. I've had it with him, I feel nothing for him and he has a sickness.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by luvhazeleyes:
<strong>***bumping for cerri****

Cerri, I am almost positive I am ready to file for D from this man, seriously. I found out that the online chat has turned into sexual advances, that I will NOT deal with that. I confronted him, he said nothing. I told him that I am filing on Tues, he still said nothing. I notice he is trying to be nicer, and calmer. I will not stay on this roller coaster. I've had it with him, I feel nothing for him and he has a sickness.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, then it's past time for PlB.

He probably doesn't think that his advances on line are the same as being unfaithful. It's a pretty common thought process, even though it doesn't make sense to you and me.... it's part of the addiction. I would guess that might have a lot to do with the lack of desire for sex.

Should we put together the PBL? Do you know where the guidelines are? Do you have somewhere you can go?

Link to my site is in my sig line, but here it is also : www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com

C