I have a question...

Ive seen here that many Ws insist on NC with OW after DDay. This is often times in the form of a letter. The W should be able to read the letter, if im correct.

Can you explain to me the purpose of this? Why the BS feels the need to require this of the WS rather than allowing him to do this on his own free will.

BTW... ill state up front, that yes, i was an OW. 7 yr R, 3 of which he was M'd. (long story, ill spare unless specifically requested to share it). We had dday about 6 months ago or so (a little less actually), are still in casual contact (he moved right before Dday so we dont see each other). His W insisted he write me an email, cc her, and deny any feelings for me, that we were ever anythign more than friends, and to state that he never wanted anything more to do with me. He called me in secret to tell me she wanted to do this, and to ignore it that he didnt mean it if she made him send it. She stated that she hoped that the email would spur an angry response (angry from being rejected) if i was in fact involved with him, and so not only was the letter to end all contact with me but also to prove if there ever was anything.

Thats just my situation. I dont know if this is what you recommend here specifically though.

Anyone????

Rain...

Rain,

I don't want to be rude....but I feel certain you probably post on the TOW board, and we have no obligation to help you use the information you find here to your benefit. I have seen huge discussions on that board that referred to how OWs can benefit by reading here. You don't belong here.....and I'm going to urge other posters not to reply to you. If that seems rude....remember that I stay off of your turf and don't harass you there.

I hope no one gives you what you're asking....if they do....I'll go over to the TOW board and paste and copy excerpts about how this works.

Please leave....there are some people really hurting here....and your presence is not welcome as a reminder of that.

Anyone who follows....please do not give out information to this person.

Instead....leave this: <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

The NC letter you describe is not the NC letter Harley describes. If you want to find out abot the Harley principles, read here (click on the Q&A link and the Concepts link above - these boards are filled with people who have varying degrees of accuracy when they interpret what Harley says), or read his books. "Surviving an Affair" is excellent, for example.

When in the Concepts section, read the Radical Hoesty section carefully. You will see that your MM is not applying this Harley concept.

Beyond that, the purpose of the NC letter is to inform the OP that the OP will no longer recieve any communication from the WS, and to request that the OP no longer contact them. So really an NC letter is a "Last Contact" letter, if the WS actually applies the Harley concepts to their marriage. You can't have NC in the form of a letter, obviously, since a letter is communication, it is only after the letter is sent that NC starts. At least that is how I understand things - but read for yourself.

John,

How nice of you to explain this to rain....but I assure you that if you stroll over to the TOW board and see the discussion in progress over there about the NC letter...you will see that some very good descriptions have been already been presented by folks like KAM.

The only purpose of this post here....is to goad us. This poster is using the name of "raindrop" on the other board (not too much subterfuge involved) and posted right before coming here:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Testing testing... lets see the results. Ive got my flame retardant suit on (at MB). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She had this to say earlier in the same thread:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> as for the NC letters, they range. SOme Ws write the letters and tell MM to send it, some send it themself to the OW acting like its the MM, some tell their MM to write it, then they edit it before its sent, etc. Some coach their Hs every word some call the OW themself.

Theres no standard to anything.

Surely youve seen this at MB?! Lol... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and this which shows she really does understand why the no contact letter was written...because if the MM had stopped all contact abrubtly...she wouldn't have been too happy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTW, im sure you know me personally, i would have racked my brain had MM just disappeared with out another word. I dont know how i would have handled that - but it would NOT have been good, and would have probably resulted in some not so dignified behavior on my part (possibly)! lol... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here's a few of the other lovely comments from the same thread by others:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I got both...the first time it was a letter...a very nasty one that she dictated t him. He broke NC and as recently as two weeks ago I received the phone call...and I heard her in the background telling him what to say. He wouldn't even respond to questions, his call was completely scripted. Again it was very ugly.

Did I mention we have a child together who is barely a month old. She told him NC with me and child or divorce. Lovely woman she is.

edited to add: he called me right after sending the letter to tell me to throw it out unopened. I of course read it, saved it and will be giving it to my attorney. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> as for the NC letters, they range. SOme Ws write the letters and tell MM to send it, some send it themself to the OW acting like its the MM, some tell their MM to write it, then they edit it before its sent, etc. Some coach their Hs every word some call the OW themself. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So, MM sends the OW the NC email/letter/phone call and months or years later comes back to her after realising how much he misses her.. must have been a token gesture to settle the sh*t flying at the time id say. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's quite a discussion over there....getting alot of hee haws at how stupid these NC letters are. So don't waste your breath.

<small>[ September 20, 2003, 10:47 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Youre absolutely right. I have no reason to hide my identity. Raindrop was already taken here (dont know by who??? Ive never posted here before or registered), so i used Rain.

Not understanding the concept, i came here to ask, as you can see.

Youre all welcome to come read the posts on there that was originated by a member who also posts here at MB.

So... you honestly think this is ammunition? You honestly think that i can gain something in my experience by knowing the full purpose of an NC letter and why its pushed for even if the WS doesnt want to send it? My curiosity really lies in why its requested if the WS doesnt want to do it on his own free will. Ive posted this same topic on PlanA/PlanB... and ive gotten some semi answers but none really answering my question of why its seen as progress or a good thing if the WS wouldnt have sent it on his own free will without a prompt from the BS.

BTW, i can completely understand the need for NC itself, which is something xMM and i discussed - he didnt want to lose his M and family... and i have always stood by his decisions... so therefore i woudl do what it takes to help him with that, and we both agreed NC was the way to go even if he didnt script up the letter his W demanded after dday. (She did demand a letter but he never sent it - i dont know how he managed to get out of sending it though).

So... anyone?

Ill also say that BSs posts (or WS posts) are always welcome at TOW... we just ask that you dont come with the sole purpose of flaming. I dont come here to flame.

But, we do welcome your pov, obviously unlike here <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Rain,

I know how much the folks on the TOW board hate it when the BS from MB go over there show disrespect for the people there. I have only been there once before and stayed away until you made this request.

Please try and understand that the information you shared in your first post about how you had an affair for seven years, R3, how he called you anyway etc. (while is no doubt true) is as hurtful here as you accuse the BS's of being on the TOW site. These details posted on this board in particular....where people are just finding out about affairs, is hurtful and disrespectful. You don't like trolls on your board. We don't like them here either. When you come here flaunting your affair and asking for advice on something you have glibbly already decided you know the answer to.....you encourage the trolling on your own board.

I've read your contempt for this board over on TOW....you aren't interested in honestly understanding this issue....you're interested in rubbing this in our faces. If you really wanted an answer, you wouldn't have presented it in the fashion....just simply asked the question. Besides, folks from MB who also post on TOW have answered it there....plus John graciously did it here as well. I'm sure the ladies on your board would not welcome the backlash that this could cause with increased troll activity over there.

Just to show you that I am sincere in my desire to end the potential for problems in all places....let me say this about your question.

It's unreasonable for you to assume that all WS don't want to write this letter. Most WS go back home....even the TOW board recognizes this. So the WS is willing and to do those things that are required to recover their marriages. Dr.H says one of those things should be a NC letter. It is a formal and symbolic way of ensuring the best probability of NC. Something about putting things in writing gives them a bit more oomph. Yes it help the BS feel better. Yes sometimes it helps the WS keep to his promise. Does it always work? Of course not....affairs as you know can be very very addictive and exciting....almost impossible to resist for some.

The NC letter as it is supposed to be written is not ugly or mean spirited or the way it is described on TOW. When it follows the MB plan...it is a simply a formal declaration of intent to end contact. It is to be written by the WS. I'm sure it's misused by some. Maybe some BS's do it themselves....I have no idea. That is not however, what we advise here. You can easily find sample letters here for this purpose if you are truly and sincerely interested in this answer.

Now.....will you kindly leave the people on this board alone instead of disrespecting their pain. They don't need it....and you guys don't need a board war.

I apologize if you interpreted it as flaunting. My intentions were to make my status known and to show that i was not trying to pursue contact after dday even though there was contact.

Ive never assumed that all WS dont want to write the letter, and i do understnad that a large majority of WS choose to work on their M after dday (ill be the first to remind an OW on TOW about this).

I just wondered why it might be pushed for if the WS doesnt do it voluntarily on DDay. I know personally, if it were me, and i wanted to save my M at all costs, I would do the NC letter, but nobody would have to ask em to do it. I guess thats all im really saying.

You can assume my intentions are whatever, but i can assure you they are not malicious. I certainly didnt think i was flaunting or rubbing anything in.

In the meanwhile... ill quit posting on this particular forum.

Rain...

Rain,

Look many the BS here are in great pain. Your question while appears to be an honest one is difficult at best for many here to respond.

It is a valid question, so I would like to respond.

Rain, the NC letter often recommended here is created with the intent to help restore the trust and POJA in a M headed for recovery.

When the WS undid the intent of the letter by telling you to disregard it's contents, he violated the POJA and the trust factor disappears.

It is quite easy to understand when this same tactic is seen in a business environment but hard when it hits home.

Any WS who works against the POJA of his M recovery is not qualified to regain their W or H title. This person continues to be a WS and the A is still in full swing. The hurt party is not the OP or WS it is only the BS and family.

Now if the BS did not insist in the letter, the true attitude of the WS would not as visible and the A would continue as before.

Hope this makes it a bit clearer.

The moral: The WS needs to say what he means and mean what he says.

L.

I said i wouldnt post here anymore, but i just wanted to say thanks for your response... i realize this wasnt the best place to post this question, and i do apologize, id move it all together if i could.

ANd i wholeheartedly agree - particularly your last statement <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Rain...

This message is for others here at MB who feel this thread is a waste of time.

NOTE: What is to follow is my personal opinion so do not consider this an MB opinion.

When a TOW poster comes here, their true intent will 'eventually' be seen. To outright deny that person the ability to post a 'valid' question/opinion or thought is cruel and makes posting here as hypocritical. I know this is not true but that message is conveyed.

What I recommend is to let the OPs post here. Much can be learned if we just give it an opportunity and when the poster goes back in the fog, gets stupid (like a few did in the past - remember the one from Finland and the 2 Ows who used to communicate to each other in an attempt to tie up the board?) , then it is time for the moderators to step in and do their job.

The point is that our support and information may come from some very unusual sources.

For example, as recently as last night, 4 BS together with 1 WS and had a 7 hour discussion together. It ended because basically, I couldn't stay up much longer - LOL!!! There was a lot to learn and even tho' the WS was out numbered, this particular WS was able to share his POV equally with the rest of the BS in attendance.

Is this WS healed? Recovered? No, not yet. He is working on it. The point is that this WS had some insight for the BS there and visa versa. We discussed both POVs last night and IMHO all benefited from our 'square' table discussion.

So can the same be achieved here? Yes, it could. That success is inidividually up to each and every one of us. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

L.

Rain,

I 4 one would appreciate your thoughts. There are several OWs that post here and they are 'highly oponiated' yet good posters. They have given many of us somethings to ponder.

The point here is posting here brings out the pain and anger in all of us. Writing here is a learning and venting tool.

Constructive criticism is helpful but only with the right attitude.

I recommend you not stop posting (though that is your choice) but rather toughen up your skin a bit.

The life choices here are working towards a permanent solution. A's are temporary at best. Definitely an irriatant to the BS and family to say the least.

Regardless of who we are (BS/WS/OP), we want to be permanently happy with our partner choices.

If so why go for the lowest percentage of happiness by choosing from a pool of people who have lowered their morals and proved disloyal? I mean we wouldn't buy a car from a 'known' dishonest salesman right? Funny how most put more effort in the searching for an honest salesman when it comes to making large purchases, then we do for a partner for life??? Go figure.... one of life's mysteries.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

Thank you Orchid. Theres several things id like to address... hopefully ill have the time and can find the words to express what it is i want to say <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

First, i wholeheartedly agree that other POVs are a good thing. I have befriended several BSs on TOW, and while there are of course a few that really get under my skin, the same can be said for some of the OWs there! lol.... although generally im pretty easy going and laid back and even the ones that bother me dont bother me for long. I can easily hop to another topic and have a good conversation... it all usually depends on the topic.

Second... i may continue posting (take it post by post) but likely more over on general or plana/planb. As for thick skin... lol... i think my situation with xMM took care of toughening me up!

And your last statement - i wholeheartedly agree. Its a very difficult thing to explain. I cant respond as id like for my inability to word it in a way that i know would be appropriate, however... I will say this: thats something i have always believed in. Dating a MM was never an option for me. Something that i had the opportunity to do many times over, and always always turned it down, exposed him to his wife, and never looked back (ive had two occasions where ive met a man, days or weeks later discovered he was married and immediately booted him with NO hesitation). Im not justifying my situation but i can say that my R with this particular man existed before he got M'd. Still not right, still caused us all a lot of pain, but when my feelings developed they were not with a MM. And so ironically, i still agree with you.

Hope that makes sense. If this is offensive, or too painful, please say so immediately and ill edit.

Rain...

Orchid,

I didn't dismiss this as an honest request without looking first to get to know who was asking it....the same thing I do here. I went to the TOW board to read to see if this particular poster seemed honest in her intent, very much like I read the old posts of the folks I answer here. I read an incredible amount of her posts...invested a great deal of my own time....and concluded that IMO it was not a sincere request but instead just for "fun"...a joke.

That doesn't mean that we can't learn anything or should not welcome honest requests for information from the TOW board. But that wasn't what I saw. We have lots of folks who come here from the TOW board who are sincere and who share their perspective. I don't believe this is a situation like that. Perhaps....something good can come out it though.

Star, i think its quite evident that if this is all for fun and games, and i had absolutely NO honest intentions, i would not be being so careful as to not offend.

What more can i do star? Seriously... let me know.

Rain...

Well since 'no one' is asking for my opinion, I am going to just but in and give it anyway!!! LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Rain and Star,
U both make valid points but are one separate ends of the spectrum.

The ponts of agreements are: A is not good. Being with an MM is not healthy.

I agree.

However, the points of disagreements are that in the life's decision, you each are on opposite ends. Rain, while you say you don't want to have an A, you have had one. What type of example does that show to let's say....your children or others who look to you for guidance? You don't need to answer me, those are just questions for you or any OW to ponder.

TOW, that board does show that all have issues. The sad piece is that the A creates more havoc and issues than it resolves. IMHO the OPs there want soo much to be 'accepted'. At best they are pseudo partners and at worst....well.... maybe not all but I have certainly seen my share of bad OPs. Nothing is worse than a bad OP. Why? Because there are more laws to protect people from family abuse (though they c/b stronger) but when it comes to OP abuse, most of the BS and family's hands are tied until that OP crosses the legal line. I am dealing with similar right now and it has been long in coming so I speak from experience.

The law does not always error on the side of the innocent. So often the BS and family are made to suffer more to get less.

I do not disregard the pain, frustration and confusion by the WS and OPs of this world. That would be stupid. What I do object to is that the WS and OP's pain and frustration is shared back to the family. This is WRONG!

Find me a TOW member who agrees with this in mind, sould and spirit then shows it in actions and I would venture to say that is an Xop and a potential MBer.

Star, I appreciate your reserach efforts and have visited the TOW board in the past. The attitude doesn't change, just the names, times and faces. This is an ancient passtime (adultery) but it still has the same damaging affect. Basically there are degrees of OPs some are just worse than others. There are also degrees of H and Ws, some are better or worse than others. The difference? There are many that can help an M and the highest support goes to the M since 'He' created it. You will never find 'Him' supporting an A in any way shape or form. Therein lies the difference. It is just sometimes harder to see through the fog.

I used to read and even posted a few times over there, causing my blood pressure to raise more than it should have. The sad piece is that 'they' (mothership) are making OPs quicker than we can change them. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

rain,

You don't need to say anything. I am only one person, and I will bow out of the discussion. I think kam did a really wonderful job of explaining why the post was interpretted as it was here and why it might be hurtful to some. She posted an explanation on the TOW board and you responded so I see no reason to explain further. I thought she had already done a great job of explaining the no contact letter before you ever posted here.....which is one of the reasons this seemed unnecessary and has confused me. Perspective is different....that's all. It's not so different over there when a BS speaks....same dynamics. As I said before....there is no OW in my marriage history so I hold no particular animosity....but I do my best to help the folks here who are in the beginning stages of dealing with affairs....which is horrible for everyone....including the OPs. Anyway, whether I believe you were sincere in the beginning or not.....I have no problem with your question....only the context you put it in.

Can someone provide me the link to this TOW board?

Thank you.

Lemon,

Why?

L.