Brief history - Married 17 years-7 children ages 1 to 17 (2 girls, 5 boys)- things began to unravel late last year when wife became depressed after last child and began spending lots of time away from me and home with her best friend (female next-door neighbor)- wife met neighbor's best friend (single male, never married) at Christmas party of neighbor's last year-he moved here in January-found out that they were having emotional A in February-wife has tried 3 times to turn her heart back to me but it is very short lived because she says she has never really loved me and that she has never really known love until she met him-she feels as though everyone (except the neighbors and the guy)is against her breaking up her family for this OM (they just don't understand what a good man he is) and she has put up walls against everyone except those that support whatever it takes to make her happy-the A turned sexual over the past 2 months she says due to the fact that she felt forced back into our relationship by everyone's opinion and she felt trapped so she had sex with him to try and win him back-he said he no longer trusted her at that time (didn't keep him from having sex with her) but just wanted to be friends because he didn't want to feel responsible for breaking up a family and hurting the children (they are very attached to me)-she went through withdrawls while we were in Fla. on vacation and was extremely upset; feeling the rejection (kinda like the rejection I was also experiencing from her)-we got real honest(found out about the sex and their plans to have been married on the beach, also to have children right away)-she was saying then that we need to stay together for kids sake and that if he wanted her back today, she would not go-she was still going off with neighbor and OM "as friends"-she would tell me that he was continually saying things that keeps her hopes up that they could still be a couple-we saw a pastor who suggested seperation and she jumped on that-she has been out of the house for 3 weeks and we have not been allowed to talk about "us" in this time period-I know for a fact that there is contact with OM through cell ph records-she is cold and distant towards me, doing the "perfect mom" thing with the kids (taking them places, signing all school work, keeping the house and laundry up)and priming them on "how much happier and healthier mommy is since she's been away from daddy."-this is the second A I have had to deal with within our marriage from this woman. Other A happened about a year after we were married. She found Christ and as far as I know has been a good and faithful wife and a very spiritual person until now. This is not the woman that me and the children have known for the past 16 years. She has questioned and changed every value that she has held for the past 16 years. She worked hard after the first A to teach me that marriage was forever and that divorce was NEVER an option. I believed her. She is sayin now that she examines her life and decisions(Dr. Phil's book - "Life Matters")she was pregnant and scared when she married too young, and she was just scared when she decided to stay with me after the first A. She has never really loved me but has tried her best to make it work for 16 of the 17 years. I love her and I love our family but I don't know how much more of this crap I can take for the sake of my sanity or the children. They are feeling all of this too. She made the decision (against my advice) to get the opinion of the 3 oldest boys on divorcing me and having her new boyfriend (who the boys had already befriended). The plan backfired and they were not happy. They all have their own way of dealing with it but she says that her relationship with the kids is fine; and will continue to be if we divorce (they will adjust). They do not know how close we really are to divorcing. I don't want to be the one to file. I feel like I would be betraying my children's trust that I have worked so hard to establish through this. I would like to go to some sort of plan B but the arrangement now is that she is comming to the house after I leave for work to get the kids on the bus and leaving when I get home. As far as I know, this may be the way that she'll want to keep it becaause in my opinion, she has her cake and is eating it too. What advice can you guys give me about making it through this mess or getting out of it with the least amount of damage to my health, finances, and most importantly -the children?

The fact that you are here tells me that deep down you want to save your marriage but are realistic enough to realize that this may not be possible. Your WW(wayward wife) is addicted to this OM and unless she makes a committment to never again have any contact with him, your marriage days are numbered. I recommend that you contact an attorney ASAP to find what your legal options are and how to prepare a legal plan of action that will protect you, the kids, and your finances.

In the meantime avoid all love busters such as angry outbursts, selfish demands, and disrespectful judgements which only push her further towards the OM. Live your life as though she no longer is a part of it by starting to go out with friends one night a week, buying new clothes, getting in shape, etc. in other words, follow Divorce Busting's 180 degree list not as a manipulative tool to get her back but to help you to emotionally detach from all the negative emotions that could sabotage your efforts to save your marriage.

Dadof7, I am praying for you in this terrible situation. May you have the peace that passes understanding. Hopefully your wife will have a revelation about you, as a worthwhile man, and about the ugliness of her affair partner and the ugliness of her own heart right now. May she fully feel the brunt of her choice to separate herself from God. I pray for her to hit rock bottom, to shake her out of this delusion. She needs to feel what life will be like without you, since she doesn't realize your worth and value at this point. Hang in there, you are not alone.

Dadof7,

I can only imagine your pain.

In the midst of that pain, it's hard to think. Please get some professional advice - both legal and marital.

Having said that, I'm willing to shoot from the hip.

Imagine OM surrounded by 7 very unhappy kids. Your kids. How long will he last in that situation?

Is it possible your W would abandon her kids?

Most Moms can't.

So, the worst-case scenario for you is being effectively kicked out of your family - separated from the 8 people you love the most - and replaced by OM. Maybe you haven't faced that scenario yet. It is incredibly unfair and ugly.

But... OM hasn't faced it either. You live with your family as Dad - the real thing. Of course, I imagine there are times when you kids think they hate you. That's just part of being a Dad - but imagine OM's situation if he were to try to replace you. Those 7 would be constantly hostile to him. Maybe the best thing will be for you to go away - leave your W without support even (until the courts order it). Let OM try to handle that. I think it will take all the romance out of it for him.

But, please get professional advice. 9 lives depend on you taking the wisest course. My life is messed up too - and I have only one child. I don't have the standing to advise you.

-AD

<small>[ September 28, 2003, 01:58 AM: Message edited by: AD. ]</small>

Hi,

I replied to your post on the plan a/b board.

L.

Heartfelt thanks for the advice guys.

Wife and I had our long talk today. She wants to come back home but only if we continue having the freedom to become the best people we can be seperately before evaluating whether or not we should be in a marriage(or try to salvage our marriage as I should say). She was very honest today in that he provided the emotional needs for admiration and genuine caring that I have seemingly failed her in for so long. She tells me that the relationship is not there because he doesn't want to be responsible for breaking up a family and she is not in a place where she feels healthy enough to be her self in a relationship with either him or me. She still professes that the love that he gave her and still claims to have for her is the love that she has been craving her entire life. She says that she feels she still loves him but does not trust that because she doesn't trust her current state of emotion. We were both next door at the neighbor's house just now...and he was there. I was nice and very tolerant...even told him goodnight before I left to come home and get my children bathed and ready for bed(school tomorrow). Is it possible to win back the love of a spouse while they refuse to discontinue contact with OM by being the best person, dad, husband, and friend you can be? My wife is a very intelligent and spiritual person and I want so badly to trust what she tells me in that she is not seeking a relationship with him or me right now...she wants to be healthy before she enters into her next relationship whether it be with me, him, or anyone else. I feel like I owe her that space but I am also conscious of the fact that it would allow her to come to a point of conclusion for our relationship. The funny thing is that I am sitting here typing this with a real peace for the first time in that she is there with him...I know I have no control over that...and it really does not bother me at all. She makes a point to give no guarantees that we will work out but that she has seen things in me and in our relationship that let her know that that is the best possible situation for us and the children. Do you guys think that I am giving her too much credit and trust? Seems like the fog is lifting but that it does not mean that she will choose to stay in this marriage. I think I am finally comming to terms with that but I still hold out hope that somehow...we will end up together and better off for this whole experience.
Thanks again...

IMHO, you are giving her too much credit. This woman has basically spit the M in your face. Demanding to have her cake and eat it too. Then she is asking you to bless and enable it saying she has to be better before she can decide.

How long will that last? Your W is babbling. Don't be surprised if she now goes around saying you approved the A and then takes you to the cleaners.

Go get some serious MC. Call Steve, Jennifer or Cerri. It is one thing to plan A but another thing to be an enabler.

At this point, what does your W have to lose or why should she change if both you men are giving her what the A craves most? Attention.

Do you think this is healthy for you and the children? Don't be lulled into a false senseof security. Your W's loyalty will change in an instant and even if you give this much she may want more and more and more..... it will be non ending until she breaks you. That seems to be the ultimate goal of the WS. Break the BS.

The question now is will you allow it?

L.

Dad,

I will repeat the advice you have already gotten. Go see a lawyer. NOW!

This may well work out, but it will be awhile. I don't think being friends with OM is a good idea, and I suspect it makes your W think "no harm, no foul" with regard to your marriage.

I strongly second the idea of a marriage counselor, and of you avoiding LB's and doing your best to be a good father. In fact, I would focus on being the father, and not so much on the H role. Your W is still very deep in the fog and does have some serious issues. I doubt her friends are helping her.

You really need to talk to your lawyer to understand your rights in case of separation, presence of OM, and custody. In some states you can keep your children away from OM. But more importantly once you understand your rights, you will be better able to formulate a plan for your marriage. I too recommend that you talk with one of the Harley's.

I am afriad that something very profound is going to have to happen before your W comes back. It could be OM leaving her high and dry (which he won't if even YOU accept him in a friendly manner), or it may be you leaving and going to Plan B. This is where you need a lawyers input. In order for you to do a plan b, you may need a separation agreement or you may not. Ideally, she would leave (she has moved out) and her only contact would be strictly limited. Better, yet she would not be in the house, but that would mean you providing more of the child care.

None of what I have said is a plan or even plan B yet. It is simply a way of pointing out you need to talk with a lawyer BEFORE you implement some aspects of the marriage recovery program here. If you have not please read about Plan A and Plan B. THat go hand in glove, but they require planning and thought on your part. So even if you are not ready for Plan B, you should be getting things in order to go to it when the time comes. And I think the time is coming.

Please get all of the background homework done, before you try to go any further with saving your marriage.

God Bless,

JL

D,
it is more then doubtful that you can get your marriage into a state of recovery while she still has contact with the OM. it just ain't gonna happen! if your W won't committ to working on the marriage and not having any further contact with the OM then you're in for a long and rocky road trip!

marriage is something that folks want or don't want. a person can't hedge their bets on something like a relationship. relationships take work and effort...they don't come for free! if she can't give your marriage a try then plan B would be MY option. i just couldn't stand to be there while she continues her affair in my face.

one last thought. what were you and the OM doing together in a scoial situation? what were you thinking? this is the guy that is sleeping with your W! he has no respect for you, your family or your marriage. you owe him NO courtesy, understanding or thoughtfullness...he is a trashy dog and nothing more. plan A does not require you to suck up to pigs!

coach

Actually, I have seen a couple of lawyers much earlier on when divorce seemed inevitable. She did too. The truth of it is that nomatter how you slice it...it ain't gonna be a pretty picture for me, her, or the kids either financially or emotionally.
She prides herself on being a good person and a great mom and does not want to go there if she doesn't have to (so she says). But like a buddy of mine told me...the marriage takes on a life and it either must be revived or put to death. I just plain care about her and the children and want to avoid the emotional trauma and forecast of financial ruin that has been laid before me.
She will not "go" and wants the house and kids to stay with her. I will not go and can't afford another apartment or house that will support 7 children and I don't want to break my promise to the kids that I won't leave them again until a judge throws me out.
They all know very well that this is their mother's issue (the om and not working on the marriage) so I am on good grounds relationally with them. Although I have noticed with both of us not at each other all of the time, they treat her as they always have...respect, admiration, and friendship. Maybe she is absolutely right in that they are great kids and would cope with us divorcing just fine. I happen to think otherwise. I am(and possibly she is)not ready to take that risk, though she wants her freedom to "be herself" within the marriage, without working on any relationship right now. I am not naieve and know that she would prefer to be with the OM if she could make that work although she says that right now she feels otherwise and has seen things about me that she truly loves and admires.
She claims that the hopes, dreams, plans, and intimacy that they shared were what she was missing from our relationshp for the past 17 years and she is trying to let go of the fact that she can't have those fulfilled by him anymore(still doesn't want them met by me either). She claims in order to do that she has to be around him to let him know that he didn't break her down.
The reason that I went around him is to let both of them know that they didn't break me. I wasn't overly friendly at all but I wasn't exactly an a-whole either. Afterall...I didn't do anything wrong here other than my 50% of the promlems in our marriage. The A was of their choosing.
She commented this morning about his childish behavior and pouting being his problem and not hers or mine and she will not be reluctant to hang around with her(their) friends.
He looked very ashamed - kinda like a whipped puppy. She says its because he is having a hard time being around her and not being with her but I believe that there is more to it than that. I try to put myself in his shoes - being around another man's wife that I have feelings for(not to mention slept with) as well as the decent man and father(who has been painted as a tyrant)and the children who obviously cherish him. I can't really speak for him or his value system but I would feel like an absolute crumb.
She has even told me that if we did divorce that he has stated that that relationship would not happen any longer. I somewhat think that he is serious but I know that she feels as though she is still very much in love with him and that she is trying to get back to being the "strong, independent person" that he fell in love with.
I want to believe that he has seen the fog that she is in and that he has enough sense...nomatter how pretty she is...to steer clear of this chick. She admits that if we had divorced and they continued their relationship that it would have ended in disaster because of the crap that she would have dragged into it from our marriage(darn!). That's why she wants to "fix herself" before she commits to any new relationship with either him or me or (someone else). Sounds like a plan don't it? Whoever she is with it would have to be started with a clean slate and go from there.
Should I be sitting around hoping that it is me that she chooses? For the sake of my children and my family I tend to say yes, although that doesn't really feel like that would give her any sort of picture of a man she would respect(what kind of relationship possibilities does that lead to?). There is a part of me that wants to go ahead and file for divorce and let the chips fall where they may...if she comes back then it will be on better negotiating terms...if not, then she really didn't love me anyway.

I guess what it comes down to is that I don't have a real peace about it either way - don't want to bail if she is really trying to straighten herself out...don't want to stay and be an enabler financially and emotionally while she finds her ticket out of my life anyway.

What a stinking mess!!!

IMHO, gonna give it again.....she is babbling and stringing you along. DON'T fall for it.

This is a prime time to push them together. Tell her she is disrespecting you and the children and needs to leave. She should NOT be allowed to benefit from the safety and comfort of the family home while she trapes the A before you and the children.

Even if she says she and the OM knows it is doomed, tell her that her actions say otherwise.....high time for the OM to meet all her needs. $$ and all. REmember she loves him more than you so he'd better pull up his pants and pay for it.

The sooner you do this, the sooner the A will collaspe. Then you and the children will feel relief. Otherwise, she will drag this out until you have no more energy left and then she will rake you over the coal and take you to the cleaners.

JMHO,
L.

D,
ms orchid is tellig it like it is...and in a very civil manner by the way! the down and dirty of it is that your W is some piece of work!

she's seems to really be enjoying the social interaction of her extended little family...she has you and her kids on a string while she slowly introduces her boyfriend to the mix (what has she encouraged the kids to call him by the way? uncle...?) and along she brought in a new circle of friends that she has developed with him. people you just have to know! right?

i'm sorry but this is entirely to sophisticated and civilized for my taste. your W sounds like quite the woman...she's in control and it sounds like she's not gonna give it up...

this whole mess is begining to sound a bit more complicated then your usuale run of the mill...it sounds a little sick to me. i think you need t real professional therapist to help figure out what's realy going on here. i mean it sounds as if your W has a pet boyfriend she keeps around to amuse her on off moments...is enjoying the turbulence of the entire affair and is just having a swell time! talk about fog!

get help! real professional help!

coach

dadof7,

I seem to notice a theme running through your posts. You seem to view your wife as more of a cog in this big machine called "family". I'd bet you see yourself that way, too. Your username is even an indicator of this.

I'm not saying this is a bad thing, but there are roles to play in all marriages. You should be your children's father, your wife's husband, your wife's friend, and your wife's lover - not necessarily in that order.

I don't think you see yourself as the last two outside of the context of your large family. She will see you the way you see yourself.

Plan A is to focus on meeting her ENs and eliminating LBs. Start there. I think she wants to be seen as something other than the mother of your kids. The OM gives her this.

I second the other opinions about being civil towards the OM and the neighbors. You don't owe them anything. Whether he's pursuing her or she's pursuing him is completely irrelevant. He has no business in your family's life.

Lastly, I recommend you consider moving. You don't need neighbors like the ones you have.

Low