It isn't easy writing this through all my tears. I can't seem to stop crying these last few days.

I am so DEPRESSED & desperate for relief from this hell I am experiencing. Who have I been fooling? Try to make it work for our son (age 7)? Isn't it just as damaging for him to see his Mommie so miserable and depressed?

I told H he could have the house, our son, everything I just want out of this misery.

H had a PA 1/3/00. Most recently an EA 7/23/03(i think). OW is 10+ yrs younger than me and no kids. We have 3 (blended family).

H stated he would stop all contact w/OW. Found out he has been in contact w/her. I confronted him about it today. When referring to EA as an A he had issue with that so (as Dr. Harley suggested) I said regardless of what "it" is, "it" is hurtful to me. Well, so and so was hurtful to me he says. Then the excuses and anger came. H has an anger management problem and it isn't just in regards to his A's. H throws disrespectful judgments around like they are nothing, coated with his anger.

I was reeling & distraught after discovering the EA, searching the net for answers. Found some hope stumbling upon MB's. Purchased "How to Survive an Affair", "Love Busters" & "His Needs/Her Needs". Couldn't put them down.

A couple weeks ago was our first session with Dr. Harley. UNhappy to say things have deteriorated since then. Have gone from hopeless to hopeful back to hopeless again. Have filled out the questionnaires requested by Dr. Harley and tried my best to follow the principles and avoid lbs as I understand them to the best of my ability.

I have feelings for my H but sometimes I think I hate him more. I feel if I never saw him again in life it would be too soon. My self respect & self esteem are where?? He can't seem to tell the truth. He has lied and raged so much in connection w/his drug abuse & the A's I don't know where to go from here?

Is there really any hope for a marriage facing a H's functioning drug abuse, major step-children issues, A's, my depression, the lies? Not to mention he visits a porno site most every day (do we add sex addict to the list too?)How do I keep my sanity?
Hopeless isn't it?

Hi,

No is isn't hopeless just hard. Now let's apply some of what you learned from plan B.

How long has the A been going on? Is it EA and PA? What did they plan to do and how was your d/d?

Your situation is close to mine in some respects. My H was a very angry man during this time. Association with the OW in our case brought out the worse in him. Their A lasted 3 years. He came home over 2 years ago but fully contact stopped only recently. Once the true colors of the A showed and after several false recoveries, H finally started to come around.

He looks and acts normal now. It is still hard.

So you see it is not impossible though if you asked me 2 years ago, I would have thought it was.

Keep having those sessions with Steve, keep reading and posting.

Do NOT give up your rights and your child. It will be hard but if you give your child over to him in his current state of mind you are not thinking of the safety of your child.

Protect your finances also. At least the very least check out your options.

take care and keep posting.
L.

Hi Orchid, thank you for responding. I think it is still an EA. As far as a plan A or B I'm not sure what I am doing?

I found out about OW through an e-mail of theirs. He discussed our sex life or lack thereof. Told her he thought he was attracted to her & apologized to her for "once again" keeping her up late. Told her how miserable he is. When asked what he was going to do. He said seperate, then divoce. When confronted with all this, he stated he was just venting and didn't want a seperation or divorce. Lied & said he never told her he was attracted to her. H has an idea where I got my info but not for sure. Continues to state there was nothing and will be nothing between them and gets angry. Same behavior with the PA.

At another time she sent him photos of herself. I only saw one but it was provocative, including another woman. His response to her when he saw it was "Sexy, wow! killin me".

Today, has been hell! He left about 1 1/2 hours ago. I know where he went. After a day like today it is the perfect excuse to get drunk and indulge in his other favorite drug. I probably won't see him this weekend.

Sofea,

A's are addictions of sorts. Let's see if we can get Bramblerose. She dealt with this combined issue and has helped many others. There are others who have dealt with this issue also.

Don't be surprised if the pa already started. Her come on photos show this is already a topic.

Don't give away your source even in anger. Retaliation is not to your benefit.

His anger could mean he is hiding more. Be prepared.

take care and keep posting as needed.
L.

Orchid, thanks again for being there. Right now I am physically sick I have to go lie down. Please don't give up on me...

Hi Sofea,

I hope you were able to rest a bit. I will check on you later.

Don't worry, we won't forget about you. I am going to put out an MB APB for BRamblerose.

L.

Sofea:

I am sorry about your situation. I, too, have experienced the effects of alcohol and an affair. (If you go to search and read my posts you will see many similarities to your situation).

To me alcohol abuse and being an alcoholic are about the same when it comes to relationships. In addition, you are facinig other substance abuse issues w/ him and an affair.

Much as I do not like saying this there is only so much you can do to Plan A with a substance abuser. This is because they simply do not have any recognition of the problems they face and are incapable of making good decisions.

Right now you MUST be in a self preservation mode for you and your son. It is very clear to me that the issues with substance abuse must be addressed first before any work on your marriage can begin.

Harley defines an alcoholic as a person who continues to drink desite the wishes of their spouse. He also states that there is no possibility of recovery with an active alcoholic.

Do not get sucked into the functional alcoholic rationalizations. There is NO SUCH THING. It is a tool that alcoholics use to enable the rationalization of their addiction. Trust me, I know.

I know how you feelan make no mistake, this is hard. It is tough enough with a sober and clean WS. With a substance abuser, impossible.

And please, I am not being negative here. Just realistic. You could Plan A your kiester off and it will have minimal effect.

So,what to do? Harley is clear about this. When your spouse is an active alcoholic and/or in an active affair, and will not ackowledge your pain or the damage it is doiong it is time for PLan B.
A very strict Plan B. My experience says he is right.

First though, get all of your legal,financial and emotional ducks in a row before you PLan B. Know where you stand on your financial and legal issues.

And before you start PLan B, start drawing boundries with him. Show him you will not tolerate this behavior. But above all,stay calm when you draw boundries. Do not make any LB statements or judgements. HOw do you do this?

Simply ask him questions in a calm,firm way. i.e.,
"Do you ever think that what you are doing is destructive?" "Have you thought about the long-term impact of what you are doing?", etc.,. You are a smart girl, you know what to do. And when you ask these questions, ask them and calmly walk away. Keep your message simple and your emotions calm...and your head clear. THIS IS IMPORTANT.

But, you must prepare for the worst. In my case, I asked my wife to leave because she was an active alcoholic and involved in an affair.

The pain of this is excruciating, especially with children. I have two sons,7 and 14. I decided very early on, that they were not going to be subjected to the further destabilazation of their lives with a an alcoholic and an affairee.

This is about damage control.

There will be an impact, there will be damage. Your assignment, should you decide to accept it, is to limit the damage. And take control of the situation and make good decisions for you and your son.

I wish you only the best. Keep your chin up and stay busy. And, get to Alanon.They are teriffic.

Hi Sofea ~

When is your next session with Steve Harley? Is he aware of the addictions present in your marriage?

The MB principles DO work, but unfortunately, it is unlikely that they will work in your circumstances. The MB principles were intended for relatively healthy couples who have gotten off track. They can not be used to fix a marriage with addiction present.

Why can't the MB principles work with addiction present? Because it is impossible to meet the emotional needs of an addict. Not only that, but some of the emotional needs of an addict are needs that cause harm to the spouse.

What will "work"? I can't promise you a specific outcome (ie your husband in rehab, your marriage recovering), but I can promise that you will experience contentment, happiness and joy again.

How?

What worked for me was Al-Anon. My family background is full of alcoholics, and so it is no surprise that I married one.

I've been where you are - full of despair, and believing that I could not bear even another moment of the pain I was in. Like you, I made wild threats and grand stands (I am a masterful drama queen!) in an attempt to get my husband to "see" how badly he was hurting me. I thought that if I could just find the right words, the right threat, the right whatever to get through to him, that he'd stop - because of course, I couldn't imagine that anyone would willingly do to another what he was doing to me. When he didn't stop, I began to believe that he didn't love me - and then even worse, I thought he didn't love me because *I* was a bad person.

I thought it was all about me. And the damage that thinking did to me was enormous.

This problem of your husband's is NOT about your failures. No spouse is perfect, and you haven't been either. Living in the face of active addiction causes a great deal of damage to all family members. It distorts and twists our thinking, and causes deep emotional and spiritual harm. So, while you do have alot of work to do on yourself - you did not cause ANY of his current behaviors.

Family members of addicts become obsessed with the behaviors, and worry constantly about the consequences. Family members of addicts become ragingly angry for the hurt and frustration that the addiction has caused, and yet still hide their feelings, and pretend that reality is something other than what they know. This is denial. But these aren't the worst of it. Guilt is the most hurtful of all, because the spouse begins to believe that if they were more attractive, more intelligent, better at coping, etc, that this problem could have been solved.

Sound like you?

You are seeing first hand the result of what happens to someone living in close proximity with the cunning, powerful, baffling disease called Alcoholism.

Sometimes, the family members of addicts, end up more crazy and disfunctional than the alcoholic. You see, while the alcoholic gets to live numbed and protected from reality by the fog and padding of booze, the family members experience the disease stone cold sober.

So how does this help you?

You can't fix your husband. You can fix you. And by fixing you...you will begin to find solutions to situations and problems that you had never imagined, and you will begin to find peace, joy and serenity in your life again, regardless of your husband's behavior.

I was able to do this by working a 12 step program and going to Al-Anon meetings. Before I found Al-Anon, I suffered from a clinical depression so serious that not only did I seriously consider taking my own life, but I also neglected my small children horribly. I had no idea that I was so seriously affected emotionally and spiritually by living in close contact with a cunning, baffling, and powerful disease called alcoholism.

As they say in the Al-Anon intro, "The family situation is bound to improve as we apply the Al-Anon ideas. Without spiritual help, living with an alcoholic is too much for most of us."

Once I entered the Al-Anon program, my life began to improve. Those improvements did not happen over night, they happened in small incremental steps. I can tell you now, 5 years later, that my life has been transformed from one of humiliation, degradation, frustration, anger and devastating hurt to one that has respect, love, serenity and joy. I still struggle with my own twisted thinking, which is why I will always go to Al-Anon (its a lifetime membership!) but now I have friends and tools to help me - so that I never have to go back to those horrible dark days before I found Al-Anon.

So, I hope you try it. You can find local Al-Anon meetings by looking in the phone book, or on the Al-Anon website: http://www.al-anon.org/

Also, here is a link to a post that may help you.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=008859#000000

(((((((((((hugs))))))))))))

<small>[ September 28, 2003, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: BrambleRose ]</small>

Hi Orchid, I feel better this morning. Thank you. I can't believe this actually has made me physically ill.

H never came back last night. It is now 11:40am Sunday, he left around 10pm Sat And if the past is any indicator he is "partying" as he puts it. Meaning he gets drunk and smokes crack. He too was very upset last night and that is how he chooses to cope. This behavior is excruciating enough but now after the A's I worry about that too when he doesn't return home at night.

His alcohol/drug use is sporadic. He is what Alanon terms a binge drinker. He has been sober a year here and there but no longer. he may go 6 mos then he binges, then a sober year passes, then he binges for every weekend in a month, then he is sober 3 mos then a binge, etc. etc. Its always on weekends, in the past it would run into Monday but hasn't for years.

I appreciate you putting out a MB for Bramblerose, what exactly is that? I imagine it is a way to ask her to talk to me. Thanks Orchid

Sofea,

Take a look at the 2 replies to your thread above you last post. Both BrambleRose and GregM responded to you with very good information. They also posed some questions you can take to Steve. You are dealing with multiple addictions and it is going to make any recovery that much harder.

Greg & BRambleRose,

Thanks for your posts, the info is very helpful. I certainly appreciate your quick response.

take care,
L.

<small>[ September 28, 2003, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Greg, Hi. Thank you so much for your response. In reading about your W I get the impression she was/is a daily abuser. My H is a binge user as I have previously described in a post to Orchid. Does that mean there is more hope for him? I don't know what is easier or if there is an easier as far as a daily user or a sporadic one. I am hoping it is easier to beat a binge addiction. But maybe I am in denial. It is still devastating and in some ways it gives you hope because he has gone a year sober. Then WHAM, SLAM,a SLAP in the face just as you are feeling a little security and trust.

There is alot of truth and good in what you are telling me, I know this. I have a little Alanon schooling under my belt, I will have my 2nd year anniversary in Alanon coming up on Oct. 1st. I was getting involved, volunteering @ our downtown office here in Cleveland, Ohio and was secretary for my home group for a year. I thank you for suggesting I join Alanon because if I hadn't already that would have been GREAT advice.

I have got to speak to Dr. Harley. I need help figuring out what to do. Is there a necessity for a PA in my situation or do I really proceed directly to PB as you suggested.

Are u & your W split still. Have you divorced? What is she up to now?

BrambleRose, Hi. I am finding some comfort from you and others like you. Thank you for taking the time to read my post.

I assume Orchid summoned you for me. Thank you Orchid and thank you Greg.

As far as the next session w/Dr. Harley it is This Tuesday. it is my H’s 1st individual session. We have had a joint one and I have had 1 individual also.

Last week during my individual is when I told Dr. about H’s addictions and when I sent him the questionnaires he requested that go into further detail. I don’t know if he has had a chance to read them yet.

My family is riddled w/alcoholics too. My Dad was one. My first child’s father was one (we were never married), my 1st husband (2 children) was a rageaholic/abuser but not a drug abuser,
and came to find out all of my Dad’s uncles were, there were FIVE.

I have been in Alanon for over almost 2 years this Oct. 1st, and It has really helped me to cope with my situation. But... after reading Dr. Harley’s book I wasn’t so sure I was doing the right thing and stopped going. If I understood Dr. Harley correctly he stated Alanon teaches detachment and in MB you don’t want that. I missed Alanon and wanted to start going again and discussed it w/Dr. whom didn’t have a problem w/it. But my H now doesn’t want me to go. So I haven’t been going trying not to do anything without the enthusiastic agreement policy. But it feels like I am the only one following it. I’AM REALLY CONFUSED ON WHAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO!!!!

I really feel I need a individual one each week w/Dr. Harley but money has prevented any more sessions. I am grateful H appears very willing to go to Dr. Harley and also appears so far to like what he has read in “Surviving an Affair”. He is almost done with the book and has ordered the others. He stated yesterday that he does not want a seperation after I had started packing in a panic yesterday to escape. I finally calmed down but couldn’t stop crying. Does that give me something to work with, his not wanting to seperate? Would a plan a work? This is insane, I go from hating him to figuring out how to still work it out. I do have love for him and the love we have for our son is enormous.

When a spouse is active in an A, whether an EA or PA do you still try to fulfill their need for sex? If yes, what about STD’s. I’m not sure what boundaries to put in place if my H binges or continues in his EA.

Sofea :

I have considered your questions baseed on my past experience,Alanon and my wifes re-hab counselors. Firts and foremost, alcoholics, whether they binge, drink every day or every weekend of whatever are going to do what pleases them the most. In this case, it is getting that next drink. Often they do what is known as "Maintenace drinking" between binges. It all looks very social but it is not. Alcoholism is a disease that masquerades. It can fool you into thinking that an alcoholic is fine if you see them sober a couple or more times in a row.

But, this is not reality. It is a masquerade. That why as BR said it is such a cunning and powerful disease. YOu become fooled, bewildered because you see a seemingly normal and healthy spouse one moment, and the next you don't recognize them.
It is powerful because it combines a drug with the most powerful organ on Earth: The Human Brain.

Yes, you are in denial. And, this is understandable given your great feelings of love for your husband. YOu want things to be the way they once were,only they cannot. The fact that he is a binge drinker does not make it different, nor should you take hope from this notion.

Only when he decides to be sober for the rest of his life will there ever be any hope. This can only be his decision. Nothing you do will make him come to that realization.

[censored] for my wife,we have been separated over a year now. My past posts show that there was a period of time where I thiught we might reconcile.
But,that faded rapidly as her disease progressed.
After re-hab she seemed to get worsr. And her alcoholic boyfriend was just another enabler that I could not overcome.

I have filed for divorce. Her disease is so progressed that she didn't bother to even file a defense or answer. So now she is in default of my divorce suit. She has not seen our children in over three months and seems not to care.

It is ahame. She is pretty,smart and at one time ambitious.

But, I digress. I had to protect this family from an affair and alcohol simultaneously. It can be done. Your posts tell me you are smart and are really looking for answers. It is just that you won't find them from your H. The good news is that youo have the answers. All you need do is to discover them. One step at a time.

Best wishes. Keep posting.

Hi again Greg, not sure how to check your posts. Although I first discovered this site in July this is really the first time I have made good use of it. Not to familiar to getting around yet. Enlighten me if you would please.

Can’t say I really liked hearing what you had to say but it all rings as being too true and I thank you for your honest assessment.

I have to say that I feel my H does “do whatever pleases him”. I am beginning to see a very selfish, self-centered person in my husband. So then do I try a plan and see if he is willing to give up his addictions for our marriage or not? I’m not sure.

He has done a very good job in hiding his addiction from family and friends for a long time. Mostly, because he doesn't drink at home. He leaves to do his drinking, sometimes the entire weekend. Like this weekend he told the kids he was going out of town.

It wasn't until I came into the picture and let family know, meaning his Mother & Father. I felt I had too, his mother was unknowingly enabling him.

Two of our youngest still don't know. I told one step-son but when he seemed to be blindsided with it I decided not to tell the other. Maybe I should.

Our little son (age 7) I will not tell right now. He is a very happy little boy. I feel I am only causing heartbreak and grieve by soing so. When I told the oldest they were in SHOCK.

I am really sorry for the loss of your W and a mother for your children. I can hardly imagine how this is also affecting them. How devastating. My H is also handsome, extremely intelligent and still has ambition.

I know you are right, if he doesn’t choose sobriety for the rest of his life we would be going through this until...

How are your children coping? How have you managed to take care of yourself and your children through all this?

Sofea,

To check my posts,click search and enter my name as it appears here or my member number.

Yes , the effect onmy sons was devastating to them initially. Our oldest is 14. I had taken him to counseling for about 5.5 months. He had anger management issues over her leaving.

She never said a word to them.

But, he has seen her at worst with her drinking ,yelling and impatience. I know some of this was her frustration with the impasse in our marriage. Her drinking and my lack of intimacy with her because of her drinking and past indiscretions.

We never got profeesional help, as we should have gotten. She refused. And I believe it was due to the way her Mother left her and her sisters and brother at the age of thirteen. She simply did not want face her own emotional issues. She acts like our marriage was a high school romance. Very immature.

The seven year old is a very happy boy. He has a very active social life and is well liked by his many friends. I know he misses his Mom, but he has adjusted and given the circumstances, has flourished.

I am very patient with both of them, but dealing with a house, a family and a full time career has been challenging to say the least, let alone the vast emotional issues I have had over the past 14 months.

I would be careful what I tell the children. You have seen the effect it has on them. It may be necessary for you to take them to Ala-Teen or Alanon for them to gain an understanding of all of these issues. I would talk to a pro first about this, however.

As for taking care of moi and the boys, I have become the best Mother a Father can be and given them as much love and attention as I can. For myself, it has been a very gradual re-building of my pride,ego and self-esteem.

I have never lacked for confidence except during the early part of this whole trial.

It has been a hard and long journey, but I see the glass as half full.

Learn as much as you can about alcoholism. And trust Orchid and Bramblerose too. Their advice is invaluable.

There are several other posters who have had similar experiences as you and me. Among them, TooMuchCoffeeMan, JustAWifey and WhenIFindTheTime.

Coffee is a very wise man. His advice is as good as it gets. And, he seems to be able to look at issues from the other side.

Above all, take care of you and your needs, so you can take care of your family.

Best to you!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I understood Dr. Harley correctly he stated Alanon teaches detachment and in MB you don’t want that. I missed Alanon and wanted to start going again and discussed it w/Dr. whom didn’t have a problem w/it. But my H now doesn’t want me to go. So I haven’t been going trying not to do anything without the enthusiastic agreement policy. But it feels like I am the only one following it. I’AM REALLY CONFUSED ON WHAT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO!!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aaah very good question. I am not going to speak for Dr. Harley, but I will explain to you how I understand it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The MB rules of marriage are meant for healthy couples. The whole point of the rules for marriage is to bind 2 individuals into one tightly knit, compatible team. There are no boundaries needed between the couple - IF - the rules of marriage are being follwed.

Policy of Joint Agreement (never do anything without the enthusiastic agreemetn of you both) - and the Rule of Protection (avoidd hurting your spouse) are impossible to follow for an addict. The addiction itself is in exact opposition.

Imagine...tell your spouse that his drinking is a lovebuster - a healthy person would agree to give it up - an addict will say OH well! and continue on, regardless of the damage, hurt and pain it is causing the spouse.

The same goes for the rules of Care, and the rule of time and the rule of radical honesty.

Time is spent with the addiction, not the spouse. Honesty? Well if the addict is breaking all the tohers, lies are soon to follow.

By accident, the addict may meet emotional needs...but actively doing so is probably unlikely.

So thats why you need boundaries and thats why you need Al-Anon.

Dr Harley objects to HEALTHY people, in marriages without addiction or other mental dysfunction, in practicing detachmetn and boundaries with a spouse. Which is fine. You don't need boundaries if you are both following the rules above.

But your husband isn't following those rules. You need boundaries! An addict can't follow those rules and in the meantime, the damage to you is incalculable.

Take care of you!

Greg,

I would like to check your posts but where do I even find search? Is it on the home page? If so, I check for you there and it came up with 0.

Also, how would I locate the posters you mentioned that have had similar experiences as us?

Thanks, and take care.

Sofea :

Sory about the delay in getting back to you. I tried last night, but my ISP kept shutting down.

Anyway, to get to my posts, go to the top of the page. You will see the MB logo. Just below that is POST A REPLY. You will see search below this line. Click. A dialog box will appear. Type in my MB name: Gregg M. All of my past posts should appear. I checked and they all popped up. To get to other posters you can click on My Profiles and enter their names and send a private message.

However, I suggest going to the Emotional Needs forum and asking for the ones I specified in an earlier reply to you by me.

Hope this helps.

Sofea, I don't really have anything to add to the great advice you've already received, and I hesitate to post to you because I don't have a positive outcome to report.

I relate to your story because my S(omeday?)TBXH is also an alcoholic/addict who left me 3 years ago to move in with a much younger MOW who he's still living with today, as far as I know. My H was also extremely verbally abusive and into porn. When he left, there were 6 teenagers living with us including his son and his niece and nephew for whom we were legal guardians because of their parents substance abuse.

Al-Anon has been my lifeline, though I relate to your dilemma about going or not, though in my experience it's a false dilemma. My H blamed the A totally on me and insisted he'd learned to drink normally so drinking wasn't an issue and he flatly denied drug use. I felt disloyal attending Al-Anon at that point and stopped for about 6 months, until I realized that his drinking and drug use were a problem for me, whether he acknowledged them or not. The first step for me was admitting there was a problem and that I was powerless over it.

I/we also counselled with Steve H. who ultimately recommended that I divorce my H. I couldn't accept this advice at the time, and continued to fight the losing battle against my H's addictions for another year.

Right now, I have a restraining order and haven't seen or spoken to my STBXH for over a year. I strongly agree with Gregg to get all your legal/financial ducks in a row before you do anything else. This is something I didn't do for which I'm paying dearly. I'm supporting him financially since I'm running our business and living in our "dream house" alone.

This year of "no contact" has given me a chance to heal. I continue to go to Al-Anon as well as IC with someone with many years of 12-step program experience herself. Nothing is ever hopeless. As my IC says, God will always give us what we ask for if we're willing to give up the form it will take.