Here is my story. Our 12 year marriage has been somewhat rocky since we moved back to her home city. I'm 38, she's 37, and we have two little kids. My wife wants to go out to karaoke with her friends (often at a lesbian bar, but she is straight, as far as I know). Of course, I don't go, because I hate karaoke, and I don't want to hang out at a lesbian bar. Anyway, things started getting really wierd when she was in a band for a charity event. She was practicing 2x per week for a couple of months, coming home at midnight. Seemed like an awful lot for a one night deal. Oh by the way, the band includes a 24 year old boy who works with her, and who recently moved out of his parents house to his own apartment.
I almost forgot to mention, she was always been a little overweight, but she decided to do weight watchers. She lost a ton of weight, and looks better than she ever did her whole life. She started wearing tight clothes and colored her blonde hair red.
So all summer, she is going out late (3:30 am on weekend, sometimes during week), and starting to be very secretive. She wants her space. She doesn't like me asking her questions like where she was, or what she did. She started talking about this 24 year old at her work a lot. She had friday afternoons off, and I thought she would go get the kids. But instead, she would call me to say she was at her friend's pool, and could I pick up the kids. Evidence shows she was at his apartment pool. In fact, I ended up picking up the kids a lot, since she said she had to work late.

So here is my evidence of an affair:

she has been going out very late a lot
she has not been showing up on time
her mom has been picking up the kids a lot
She started smoking, but has never smoked before
our common friends won't talk to me at all
she started wearing lots of perfume & tight clothes
she started chewing a lot of minty gum
she had toothpaste and deoderant in her purse
she was very secretive about her purse
she was resentful that I wondered where she was
she didn't like me calling her
she frequently doesn't answer her cell phone or her work phone when I called
She calls the 24 year old on the phone a lot. Lots of incoming calls.
I saw them together at a bar when I was meeting her there. He took off very quickly.
she wants to be young so bad- she says it's a mid life crisis
she wrote convincing "stories" on the computer about affairs and infidelity.
she started playing guitar - he plays guitar.

wow. It's pretty convincing. So here is what has happened. We got in a big fight about something really silly (I think she picked it), then the next week, she announces that she wants a divorce. The following week, she says she wants a separation, and I need to move out. I go stay at a hotel for a week, then have been in an apartment for 3 weeks. She has called me 2x demanding a quick divorce.
So now I'm not sure what to do. I've basically tried to stay civil with her, for the kid's sake. I'd like to give reconciliation a shot, and am willing to work hard to satisfy her emotional needs. But she won't see a marriage councelor, or even go to lunch with me.

At this point, it seems like "plan b" is the only option.

Comments?

<small>[ October 03, 2003, 02:19 AM: Message edited by: tallboy ]</small>

How awful! As you say, yeah, pretty convincing. I would not advise Plan B at this point. It is best to do a good Plan A, first. If you click on the link in my signature line, you will find some good info on Plan A. So, move back in the house and start Plan A. Why should you move, anyway?

BUT!!!! before you start Plan A, read up on Love Busters in the the "Concepts" section in the link above. The most important part of Plan A is to eliminate LoveBusters. When you can't do Plan A anymore because you cannot resist the urge to get angry and LB, then you better go to Plan B.

I know it is horribly difficult to maintain self-control when your W is having an affair and not controlling her own anger, but this is critical. You are fighting for the survival of your family!

<small>[ September 29, 2003, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

Problem is, I've been out of the house for almost a month. I just moved the guest bed out last weekend. About a week ago I talked to a lawyer on the phone, and he said get back in the house. I called her and told her that, and she said she couldn't live with that. She said she would go to her parent's house (1/2 mile away). While that sounds ok, I'm not sure if I'm ready for that confrontation. She will throw an awful fit, and might just walk out. While that would make her more miserable (not in the comfort of our nice home), I'm not sure if that is best. Not really an environment for satisfying emotional needs!

Is it worth the confrontation?

Yes. Your lawyer told you the same thing. Trust us.

tallboy

I'm not going to give you any advice there are people here much better qualified for that. I am in the middle of the same problem and I've moved from being seperated to finding out the A. to now she wants me gone.. Read my post and listen to what the others told me.. If I had listened earlier I would have stopped the A befor it actually got to far but I was in denial and wanted to trust her.. All within the last two weeks. So like I said look at my post and read what they said to me.. I feel for you I do know how you feel. Good luck - Lost & Confussed

So how do I go about this? Should I confront the OM? I have his phone number, and can call him at work - He works at the same co as my wife. I doubt if he would talk to me though.
I am friends with her boss - I could try to enlist his aid in talking with the OM and maybe her. Everyone tells me not to do either of these things, though, because it would be "pursueing" her.
I've talked to her parents, accused her of having an affair. They didn't believe it, and would probably deny the whole thing to the end.
I'm supposed to have the kids the rest of the week (at the apartment). I'm planning to pick them up after school, but I'd thought about maybe going over to the house and staying there. Announcing that I'm spending the night, and so are the kids.

Should I pronounce my love for her? After the last few weeks, I have realized that I love her with all of my heart. The whole time we've been together, I've never even thought about anyone else. But, we've let so many things get in the way of our marriage. Also, I hate the idea of the kids growing up in a broken home.

Please help with this plan, I really don't know what to do. She'd like to have me be gone so she doen't see my sufferring, I think. And she wants to deny the sufferring of our kids.

Tallboy,

You need the kind of help in this crisis stage that you can get from the professionals....Harleys or cerri. The steps you are going to have to take to end this affair are not going to be comfortable, and they are going to go against your instincts. I'm going to ask cerri to drop in on this thread for you.
Or you can go to her site www.saveyourmarriagecentral.com and give her a call.

TB...

Couple thoughts,

yes, she is having an affair, would bet the ranch on that.

No, she can't force a quickie divorce (more later).

Yes, GET YOUR BUTT BACK IN THE HOUSE AND IF SHE LEAVES THE KIDS STAY WITH YOU.

Two seperate things to think about here

1. Win back your wife and fix your marriage (duh)
2. You do not want to get killed in the divorce if she files and pushes for one.

Fortunately (well, kinda) those two goals work together well.
First, Plan A. DO NOT talk to her boss, huge lovebuster. Be very careful talking to the other man. LISTEN to me on this - he is a 24 year old boy, very likely with a 24 year old boy's conflict resolution skills. Getting into a fight would be harmful to both of hte above goals. Confronting him in a controlled manner - phone, email, publicly with a tape recorder and witness (if you are sure you can keep it together) throws a bit of stress on Jr's relationship with your wife.

Ok, what if she wants a quick divorce? Don't panic, quick divorces when one spouse resists and children are involved don't happen. If she files s-t-a-l-l-l-lllllll. Request court-mandated counseling, request social study, file interrogatories, depositions (serving OM with an order to appear for a deposition at work would not make him happy, would stress their relationship enormously). If you can get evidence of the affair and he lies in the deposition then he goes from aldulterer to felon - you can only get away with that if you are a president from Arkansas.

Overall plan? Let her know you do not want a divorce, you want to fix the marriage.
Let her know that a divorce is not an option in your mind and you will resist it to the limit of the law. A 2-year divorce proceeding would stress their relationship enormously, especially for the 24 year old. Exposing the affair (get proof) to everyone you can (how about Jr's mom?) will add more stress. The mutual friends who won't talk? They are in a rough spot - they may know things they do not want to. I would ask them to lunch, express your concerns about what is going on and ask their opinions - someone knows about this, you need to know what's up. A PI is not that expensive, a buddy with an evening to kill and a camera is good too. A $15 voice activated recorder under the carseat may be sneaky... Ok, so i am going to Hell but it is useful. Any/All means to protect your marriage and find out what is going on.

here is the thing - you two have a lot of time invested, bad because things have had time to get stale, good because time, kids, history is a big foundation that can withstand a LOT.

An affair is built on lies, it does not have a foundation and infatuation is fleeting - toss a little stress and reality on it and it crumbles.

DO call Cerri or SH and get some professional guidance here.

Meanwhile, get home NOW, take on every childcare duty you possibly can and Plan A. Do not freak if she files, I can give you 50 ways to make that take years. If she moves out then try to keep the children home - while she is busy acting out the kids need security and consistancy. THEY come first. If you can get evidence of the affair and SHE is the one to leave then getting temp orders to keep the kids home with you is not too hard.

OK, now that I lectured you like an overbearing [censored]...

Been there. It does suck but it is NOT the end of your marriage and there IS still a lot of hope. I know it is hard to see the glass as 1% full in a time like this, hang in there and hang around here - lots of good ears/shoulders.
2.

She called me today, there are problems with her car, and she wanted to know if she should fix it or buy a new car. At first, I asked if she can afford it, but finally I told her I would pay for half of the repairs.

There are indications that the affair is starting to fall apart. I saw emails that indicated some strife in the relationship.
The day after the email, she demanded a quick divorce. She called me last week, again, to demand a quick divorce.

I found a poem she wrote on the computer (written last weekend) that was about the other person running away and how badly it worked out.

This makes me wonder if we should go through the confrontation of moving back. I'm really scared that it would make her hate me even more. I have the kids the rest of the week at the apartment.

When I picked them up, we talked some (probably too much). She asked me how things were going, and I said I could hardly stand the pain. But besides that, things are fine.

She put some things in the car, and unfortunately she saw my copy of "Surviving An Affair". She said that there was no affair going on, because she saw the book. She started telling me that our marriage was completely over, and it was because of me. Actually, I kind of believed her. It rattled me. I told her that the kids were already visibly affected by this. She said that was better than living with a marriage where the people don't love each other.

She asked me if I wanted a marriage where she didn't love me. I said of course not, and I don't want the marriage we had 2 months ago.

We stood by my car, and I said I don't know why I left this house. She said that she would take the kids to her parents if I came back. I said why disrupt the kids - she says that they would rather be with her. But they are 1/2 with me now. I also told her how miserable it was living in a hotel, being pretty much homeless, and setting up an apartment. She said "but now you've done all of those things".

As for the divorce, she wants to do a cheap agreed no-fault divorce, like her friends have done. Of course I can resist that agreement, but it will cost me big time ($$$). I think she is playing on my concern about money to try to get what she wants.

Since I have moved out, I can't really get any hard "proof" of the affair. This will be especially hard if it is already ending. I can't really follow her or anything, my car is too recognizable. My friends won't do a stake out. Any ideas on this? Should I really go to the trouble? Any ideas on how to accomplish this?

We had made plans to go to DisneyWorld at the end of the month. Real premium (for us) kind of arrangements. Prepaid for everything. She said she cancelled my ticket. This makes me feel like it is really over. It will absolutely kill me for the kids to be at disney without me.

Oh, one other point. When she was denying an affair, I asked her why she lied to me about being at his pool (she said she was at her woman friend's pool). She first said she didn't. I told her that she admitted to being at his pool, and she never told me about it. She was totally cornered, and she responded with "I don't remember".

One thing you can etch in stone tallboy........the WS will always deny they are doing anything (affair)....they will tell you they are not even if you have concrete evidence. Its like they are in denial and feel if they say they arent having an affair then in their weak minds they arent. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> My EX said to the very end of our marriage and even after our divorce that she never had an affair.....EVEN THOUGH I had people tell me she was seen out with some guy and I had cell phone records of 50-100 calls to a cell phone I didnt recognize, and even though she worked late.....dressed up and had perfume on when she came in at midnight. DENIAL.

So if you go home, she will leave? Cool. Why exactly is it that you should get out because she wants an affair????

As to the kids. you are giving her atty an EXCELLENT weapon if you don't go back home. Her forcing you out will turn into you abandoning them.

GET HOME, if she wants to go to her mothers then you can't control that - control what you are doing and do NOTHING to make this easier for her.

YOU MUST MOVE BACK IN -- if it pisses her off, who cares.

LISTEN, she is in the FOG big time. She wants to play single, she's not going to take the kids. If she does, she's going to try to make her mom watch them all the time.

SHE IS BEING A BAD MOTHER RIGHT NOW SO YOU HAVE TO STEP IN AND BE THE RESPONSIBLE ONE FOR THE KIDS!

She's not even behaving like a mom right now and that pisses me off! Sorry, I have issues with people who forget they are parents and are suppose to be setting examples for their children, etc. Staying out late and dressing like you're in your 20's and hanging out at bars is not my idea of setting an example for the children.

It doesn't matter what you have done in the past and whether or not this whole mess is partly your fault. What matters the most is the both of you have children and she needs to grow up and the both of you need to handle this appropriately.

There is no such thing as a "quickie" divorce when kids are involved. I'm sorry, you do not call the court and say, "Hey, I want the fast track." Doesn't happen. Her friends probably didn't have kids.

The A is probably having problems because this KID had the perfect R. A married woman who was providing no-string attached sex. All he had to do was nice talk to keep it coming. There are a lot of 24 yr old single guys that would keep it coming. Now she says she is getting a divorce. Oops, she's going to want to hang w/me more. What do I do? I'll start picking fights or something. Your wife is so in the fog and will be for a while.

Sounds like she is wanting the single life again. Well, guess what? You have kids and have responsiblity now! Let me at her! Just kidding.

Seriously, move back in and tell her no fighting in front of the kids!

Like everyone else has been saying, the betrayed spouse should not be the one to leave the house. Your wife is the one that chose to look for companionship outside of your marriage, she needs to be the one to move out of the house. Let her live with her parents so that they can see what she is up to. Nothing will put stress on her relationship like having to bring the affair out into the open. Be firm, but do not be cruel. The kids need to remain in familiar surroundings and should be with you until your wife decides if a 24 year old is worth breaking apart your children's world. She is lost in the fog and will not respond to reason, so be patient.

Here is the wierd thing - even though the evidence is pretty damning, I'm not absolutely sure that there has been an affair (well, I'm pretty sure of an emotional one), and I'm really worried about permanantly pissing her off. I agree that I should not have been the one to leave, but she convinced me that I should, and this divorce was all my fault. So the fog has lifted some for me. I have the kids at the "condo" all this week. Guess that lets the wife and OM play house for a while.
She was supposed to have the kids Friday, but has arranged for her parents to have them sleep over.
Her parents would deny the truth of the affair, even if they saw them in bed together. They taught her to avoid any conflict at all costs.
I'm still thinking about moving back in, but I'm really worried. I guess I don't want to make things worse, but how much worse can they be?

Tallboy - please listen - post to Cerri.

Look, DO NOT let her take the kids. From what you are saying about ehr behavior I will bet you anything she is having an affair. No, I am not a paranoid BS - I was a WS - get it? I know her routine back to front because I helped write the playbook.

If moving home permanently pisses her off SO WHAT! She wants a quick divorce, the kids, and the freedom to stay out til 3am????????

SORRY, that is not what your children need.

As to the all your fault crap? yes, of course it is your fault in her mind, otherwise she would have to decide it is her fault.

I KNOW how hard it is right now OK? My XW left for an OM and tried to take my child and I spent 2 years winning her back because i wanted to be nice and not rock the boat.

Tip the f'ing boat over and dump her [censored] in the cold water if need be but please, this advice is coming from someone who spent 2 years and 200k on 5 lawyers before firing all and representing himself before finally winning on appeal. I also spent two years ont he board of director's for a father's rights group so in this area I promise you - I am not guessing or hypothesizing or suggesting - i am telling you the facts.

GET BACK IN THE HOUSE WITH THE CHILDREN AND DO NOT LET HER TAKE THEM OUT OF THE HOME!

I know you can't think clearly now, i know you are hurt but unfortunately you do not have the luxury of getting through this first and then focusing on the kids, you have to do the reverse.

NEver, ever, ever accomodate the spouse who is asking for a divorce you do not want. Do not move out, do not agree, do not give up the kids and do not leave the home under any circumstances. You will make it easy for her to divorce you. Give her a little bit of a challenge here and fight her on this - if nothing else that shows her that dangit, you are willing to fight for your marriage.

THAT will refute her ideas about hwo little you care. You are playing into her hands if you accomodate her.

PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE.... go to your first post on this thread, click the little pencil and change the title to "Cerri, please comment".

Been there, done that, wish I knew then what I know now, okay????? This is not over by a longshot if you play it smart.

Hi tb,, im sorry things are so bad for you right now,, Im no expert thats for sure, but I do qualify for being in pain. Im not sure but I think you are probably right about your ws affair. It does not make sense that she would just suddenly want out of the marriage. May I ask how old your children are? Her wanting to be young again is hurting not only her family but her also, she just does not realize this yet. She must know that you loved her as a woman with more meat on her bones, as a women with less meat. She is just making excuses, and as far as her taking the children to her parents house so often it is not fair to them either. You move back into your home, you have that right, you did nothing wrong. Don't let your emotions of love for her get in the way of what you know is right. If she rants and raves so be it. Tell her exactly what is on your mind, and ask her to do the same. I hope things get better for you. may god bless you and help you through this a little at a time... Hurtinhart

Ok, everyone I know councils against going back, except the lawyer. They say it will just make her hate me permanantly. And if she is at her parents, they will believe her lies more than I did. You see, she only works 32 hours/week, so she has a little extra time every day to "play". And maybe I'm distorting the whole situation - you are all just making a determination based on what I'm saying.

BTW, the kids are 5 and 8. The 5 year old is fighting with her sister a lot, and the 8 year old is much more sensitive.

<small>[ October 02, 2003, 06:33 AM: Message edited by: tallboy ]</small>

<small>[ October 02, 2003, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: tallboy ]</small>

I know you all mean well, but I'm really concerned about making such a huge decision about what to based on internet recommendations. I mean, I really need something that will work - I don't want to ruin the chances for something with her.

I'm guessing that things didn't go so well with this guy, and she is still hurting. She knows that she can love now, and it's not me in her mind. She is now convinced that she should find someone new. She has been looking on the internet on dating, flirting, etc. Maybe she is still trying to get him.

But as for the going out late, etc., I'm very concerned that she is not being a proper parent. That is why I have the kids all week.

God this is getting me down. I can't stand the idea of all this going on, and I'm distancing myself from it. This living in the apartment is easier, like I can deny that I had that life at all. Only having the kids brings it right back - that is why she wants me to have them.

I would do anything in this world to make this work out. But I just don't know what that is.

<small>[ October 02, 2003, 05:11 AM: Message edited by: tallboy ]</small>