Here is the scenario – last night after a pretty good day – on the way to an event, my wife started talking about work. There were some technical questions that she had about regulations and laws and by the drift of her conversation I could tell that she was edging toward an indirect suggestion that she needs to call the OM to just answer a quick question. (situation from "Need Immediate Help!" Topic) I dropped it at the time because we were almost at the event and I didn’t want to upset the evening. When we left and went home I decided that I wouldn’t bring it up at the time because we have been having intense conversations for about a week – and I wanted to give her a chance for rest etc. This morning however, I resolved that I needed to remind her about her commitment to not communicate with him. Two of our kids were still at home. I went into the room where she was when they were elsewhere and reminded her that she was not to have any communication with him. Then what happened was, in my opinion, she escalated it. It reminded me of when I first suspected and called her on her trip and she raised all kinds of defensive mechanisms – crying – saying why didn’t I trust her – the job is her focus and how could I suggest that she was up to anything except the best interest of her organization. These all came back. She said she had promised me that she would not call him without letting me know and I should trust her, she cried, she became angry with me saying how could I bring this up at that time when our kids were around – (which by that time they had come in the room hearing the commotion and unfortunately my 4 year old heard more than I would have wanted.) She said that when she was talking last night she had no intention of calling him today and if she needed to she would let me know. My problem was that may have been true but by not raising the issue I did not want to leave her with the notion I was giving tacit approval to her calling. I really was just reminding her and again in my opinion she escalated it with the mentioned things. I suggested that she was rationalizing through the business angle as to why the personal issues could be segregated in any conversation she might have and she denied it. “Only the interests of the organization” I suggested that if she needed to call him I would come to her office and be there when she did – and she was silent. There is another lawyer in his firm that he volunteered to have be the primary contact for my wife and I suggested that she could call her – my wife said “she doesn’t know the answers to these questions.” Of course I was thinking, “She could go ask.” My question I guess is – what can I do to minimize these kinds of things impacting our kids – I had to bring it up - maybe I should have done it last night but we had a nice evening and she was so tired I thought I would try to just be supportive. I felt that if I waited until tonight she might rationalize to the point of calling. I didn't suspect - but probably should have - the escalation. I thought I could just make it a reminder. By the way, the history of our marriage is that when we try to have serious conversations if I ever say anything that might make her uncomfortable she cries and become defensive/combative. I would always retreat and we would leave whatever the issue was on the table. I have resolved not to do that anymore.

My response would be: 'Well hon, if contacting him for even work info upsets you this much, maybe you shouldn't talk to him and ask another person.'

L.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by looking4ananswer:
<strong>By the way, the history of our marriage is that when we try to have serious conversations if I ever say anything that might make her uncomfortable she cries and become defensive/combative. I would always retreat and we would leave whatever the issue was on the table. I have resolved not to do that anymore.</strong>

Poor communication is the root of all marital evil.

It is impossible to assess from here who was "right" or "wrong" in this exchange. Probably no one. It is a turbulent time for both of you, you have fears, she has guilt, etc.

A counselor can help get tpo the bottom of that. I would advise you to do phone counseling with the Harleys, they are excellent.

In the meantime, if you have to have serious conversations, it may be productive to step back and set ground rules for them. If you say to her calmly "I feel like every time we talk about something serious you "cry and become defensive/combative", she may change that behavior once the "defensive tactic" is exposed. Or she may share a similar complaint about your communication style which you can address and help the situation.

At any rate, I think the answer to the work problem is for her to contact the other attorney. If necessary that attorney can go to the OM to get the info needed and relay it back.

Negotiating to somehow keep the OM in the loop is classic WS fogged behavior.

L4A,
others may equivocate seeking ways to be impartial but from me you will get only one answer on this issue; what part of NO CONTACT does your W have a problem understanding?

could you have handled the confrontation with more diplomacy? maybe, but after reading your post, i for one see no problem in the way you chose to deal with the issue.

look, the concept of no contact is for me anyway, the single most important element in the recovery phase of a relationship. maintaning a strict no contact structure is the engines which allows other more subtle phases of the recovery to go forward and take place. i just can't concieve of any reason to breach this simple fundamental rule...and you agreeing to let it happen would just be enabling as far as i'm concerend.

if your W wants to cry, scream rent her cloths, lay on the floor and kick her feet while protesting your lack of "understanding" or screaming to the heavens that "you don't trust her," it makes no difference! NONE! she is either comitted or she isn't..."there is no being just a little bit pregenat!"

if you both have established ground rules and agreed on this issue then she should he held to it! no matter what! anything else would be dishonest and a breach of faith.

coach

L4A,
others may equivocate seeking ways to be impartial but from me you will get only one answer on this issue; what part of NO CONTACT does your W have a problem understanding?

could you have handled the confrontation with more diplomacy? maybe, but after reading your post, i for one see no problem in the way you chose to deal with the issue.

look, the concept of no contact is for me anyway, the single most important element in the recovery phase of a relationship. maintaning a strict no contact structure is the engines which allows other more subtle phases of the recovery to go forward and take place. i just can't concieve of any reason to breach this simple fundamental rule...and you agreeing to let it happen would just be enabling as far as i'm concerend.

if your W wants to cry, scream rent her cloths, lay on the floor and kick her feet while protesting your lack of "understanding" or screaming to the heavens that "you don't trust her," it makes no difference! NONE! she is either comitted or she isn't..."there is no being just a little bit pregenat!"

if you both have established ground rules and agreed on this issue then she should he held to it! no matter what! anything else would be dishonest and a breach of faith.

coach

Had lunch to day - I shared with her the original comment I posted for this. She had prepared a summary of what she was thinking - the conclusion of which (hers) that the work thing would work best if she could keep contacting him for just business matters for a month when some changes will take place. Of course I am thinking "you want to contact him for a month as you have questions about work stuff and will limit it to that because he is so "indispensible" to the way the organization works. What about earlier admissions that the "affair was not about sex", "he filled her emotional needs", "he was a very major part of her life the last year" and she had sex with him just over a week ago and now all calls will be purely business to protect the organization and fill my requirements both?" We are discussing this contact thing and she doesn't even offer (other than a need for maybe a quick 2 minute answer on a technical topic) what she needs to talk to him about. I do think she has rationalized this position to the point that she does not see the harm. Its like trying to reduce the consequences of what she did. I don't know what she expected to happen when the lawyer for an organization and an employee in charge of major decisions for that organization begin to have an affair. It not like all decisions were being made objectively for the good of the organization then and its not like the consequences being messy weren't to be anticipated. I really don't want to mess up her career, job or the organization she works for - its important to me and her and us - but this one lawyer being so important that it transcends our marriage is in my mind a ruse. Yeah changing will be hard - it will send signals that some may not like - it may have some detrimental impact on the organization - but organizations change lawyers all the time. Then I hear its a matter of timing - just a month - of course look at the hell I have been in for a week - it almost unbearable and I know she cannot be 100% committed to anything we do if the day we do it she has been talking to him even about "only business matters" My question is should I confront him and tell him to stand aside? He may not do it but this crap has to stop. This "what is in the best interest of the organization thing - business as usual" "orderly transition" seems to be trying to rationalize reducing any direct negative consequences and accountability.

As I said up above, it is classi behavior for the wayward spouse to want to avoid the no contact rule and keep the spouse in their lives. They will have all manner of irrational arguments and emotional behavior about it...'just for a week'....'just until he/she gets her life together'...whatever. The reality is, every contact, phone call, email, or even the anticipation of any of those keeps the healing process from starting.

Is the OM married?

This is where you need Harley counseling, to have a third party make thisd clear to your W without you being the bad guy.

If it were me, I think I'd tell her that you can not stop her from contact, but you do not agree to it, it hurts you, and according to MarriageBuilders philosophy you should expose the affair to everyone in your life -- including her work and family and the OM's work and family --if contact doesn't stop in order to stop the affair and save your family. That if she can't guarantee no contact, you can't guarantee you won't expose the affair.

I'm not advising you to do that, necessarily...talk to one of the Harleys.

L4AA-

Mike is right, as usual. Get in touch with one of the Harleys ASAP. As he told me once: "You are at defcon 5, under a full blown assualt" Or something reasonably close to that anyway. The point being, you are dottling around on this message board wondering what to do. GET PROFFESIONAL HELP TODAY!!! How can i make this any clearer, I've been saying this to you for about a week now. What, do you actually have to catch them doing it in your bed?!?!?!? Dammit man, pick up the F*CKING phone now. Good Lord, I'm gonna hunt you down and dial the damn number for you. How can I put any more emphasis on this point? Really, somebody please tell me.

Tell your wife to quit her job, that is the only way I can see her ending contact and you ever feeling sane while she is at work. I know you've said that her career is important to her and you, probably for a whole host of reasons. But look, changing employers isn't ending a career. But if anymore of this bullsh*t between her and the OM, FOR ANY REASON , keeps going on it WILL mean the end of your marriage.

Your W, my friend, is handing you the same pack of f*cking self rationalized, self justified bullsh*t that my W is handing me. My W has agreed to no contact about 5 times so far, in this month alone (well, last month anyway). She always finds an excuse to talk to him, I tell her my feelings but it just doesn't matter, she is out till 3 or 4 a.m. Stop [censored]'n around here. She has to quit her job, in my opinion. This is yet another point where you need PROFFESIONAL COUNCIL , just because a bunch of hosers on some damn message board are giving you their opinions doesn't mean squat. You need to talk to one of the Harleys or to Cerri to find the best way for this to happen. If you walk into the room and proclaim that she has to quit her job, she will turn on the water works like you have never seen. The anger will be enough to make a long shoreman curl up in the fetal position and cry for mommy. You will all at the same time be (in her eyes): crazy, cruel, heartless, mean, unsupportive, demanding, a tererible husband, and ALL THE JUSTIFICATION SHE HAS EVER NEEDED TO CONTINUE THE AFFAIR. This is why it is SO important to get the proffesional help. They have seen this situation a thousand times, you and I and just about everyone else here have maybe seen it once, and we are NOT objective, we are victims of the same demon...infedelity. It stands to reason that we all have a bias.

Look, I'm sorry for the unusually harsh tone of this post, but you are playing with fire...and your marriage is doused with gasoline. If you go into these type of situations with only a few opinions from the folks on this message board to guide you, your marriage will go up in flames...I will lay 1,000 to 1 odds on it. I like you, I don't want to see that happen to you, but niether I nor anybody else here (except for whats her name... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) can do sh*t to help you. We are here to provide you a place to share feelings, stories, get support, and provide you a place to vent.... PERIOD.

***** THIS IS NOT THE PLACE FOR YOU TO REFINE YOUR STRATEGERY *****

Ok, consider yourself thoroughly b*tch slapped, feel free to tell me where to stick this post. I can take it.

Take care, let us know how it goes.

<small>[ October 02, 2003, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: RJP ]</small>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RJP:
<strong>Mike is right, as usual.</strong>

Why, thank you, RJP. You've made me feel very nice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<strong>...just because a bunch of hosers on some damn message board are giving you their opinions doesn't mean squat.</strong>

...actually, now, not so much..

Tell us how ya really feel, RJP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You are correct, of course, and with the passion of the newly converted. Two plus years ago I needed about 3 dozen quiet nudges from K before I picked up the phone and called the Harleys.

Alright, L4A......how about a little perspective from a FWW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

NO CONTACT. I don't know much about your story, and to be honest, I only pop into this side of the board every so often....but I read your thread, and your W's "rationalization" and it reminded me so vividly of my former situation.

My OM's W required NC - at the time, I hadn't told my H of the A, and OM and I were trying to end it anyhow, as it had gotten too intense. But we also could not imagine at least not being friends. So OM told his W that he needed to keep in contact with me for business (we were closing a contract) only. Well, from the other side of the fence, business was clearly not his only motivation. We tried NC at least 3 or 4 times. Each time, we would try to keep it to business or friendship, but then he would always escalate. No matter what.

Her excuse that she needs to contact him b/c he is the only person to answer the "question" is just a tactic to ease her pain from withdrawal. It's going to be very hard for you right now....she is going to go through withdrawal, and it is not going to be pretty. If what she said about it being highly emotional, then she will go through a severe withdrawal....and through her attempt at contact, she is trying to minimize the effects of that by just "keeping it business." True healing cannot begin while she is in contact with him FOR ANY REASON.

I don't know if you have told her about you posting on this board. But if you have, feel free to let her know she can e-mail me if she likes. You can find my e-mail in the sig line. I have been where she is.....she may believe noone has been there before. She may also not be receptive to healing at all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> - and that is the "fog" talking.

Don't give her the permission for any contact. No matter what. Period. Bottom line. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> If she does initiate contact for any reason, you need to make it clear to her that it is unacceptable, and you will not allow her to disrespect you or your M any longer. If she can get an inch, she will take a mile. So please stand your ground - no matter what.....

Good luck. Best wishes.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Darn double post...

<small>[ October 02, 2003, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: lost in tx ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lost in tx:
<strong> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Darn double post...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">S'allright. That one was worth saying twice.

L4AA-

Wow, ok, I just re-read my last post...and...ah...sorry about that man. A little to much emotion there. Didn't mean to go off on you like that. Anyway, how have you been doing? Been getting any sleep? Eating anything? Been able to take your mind off things even for a second?

Hang in there and take care.