Hi,

Here's an update -- I am looking for more great advice from you since the last bunch worked a treat! Can't even find my old thread so started another -- hope you remember my general situation so that you understand why I'm asking you in particular.

Plan A was successful. When I finally discussed the A with H yesterday morning, I think everything went as well as it could have (ie. according to all the reading I've done here).

There were no LBs from me except that I criticized OW -- and even then I apologized because I said I knew he saw her as his friend and felt she'd been supportive of him when I wasn't. But I said I couldn't see her that way because she'd actively worked to end our M, in part by pretending to be MY friend while angling for him all along.

He expressed remorse. He is in love with me (Plan A allowed him to realize this...he recognized and believes in the changes I've made). He feels incredibly guilty and wishes he could turn the clock back. He can't believe where he found himself and (as I said on my other thread) he confirmed my suspicions that he's been trying to extricate himself from the PA for the past few weeks by reducing contact, etc.

"Didn't know how to get himself out of the mess he's created" would sum up what he said. Also: was scared sh*tless to tell me (has wanted to for the past few weeks) because he thought I'd just laugh and tell him to get lost forever. (Guess my Plan A confidence was pretty convincing!) Thought I was being "kind" to him.

Only negative comment throughout was: doesn't know if I can ever trust him again, and isn't sure that he wants to live a life filled with suspicion.

As you and I previously discussed, I continually reinterated how guilty I felt about the way I'd treated him, how I clearly saw that forgiveness would have to happen on both our parts. He was in the process of forgiving me and learning to trust me again, and now I would need to do the same with him.

BTW: I am worried that his guilt will be the biggest obstacle to our recovery. My taking this approach did seem to alleviate his negative feelings somewhat, and I also suspect it must have gone a long way in filling his Love Bank, meeting his EN, to hear me so honestly acknowledge his pain at the way I had treated him in the past.

He's been really loving with me since then -- no holding back on physical contact, very heartfelt. Although there's been NO further discussion, all his ACTIONS have been right on the mark. I should also stress that this is the same pattern that has truly guided me for the past 2 months -- absolutely no discussion between us (since he delivered his I-don't-love-you-anymore speech to me) but his actions spoke the truth (ie. gradual thawing towards me and distancing from OW).

I think it's also important to note that we are going away for a week to see his parents this Saturday so there will be lots of time for heart-felt discussion then. Not to mention a fun trip!

So now what???

Do I offer to help him end A? Or leave him to do it on his own unless he asks for my help?

I DID tell him my boundaries. Said it was his choice to make, but that for me, now that the A was out in the open, it had to be either/or. (He chose me on the spot.) Said we couldn't move forward in our M unless he could tell me the truth, not what he thought I wanted to hear. So if that meant he was feeling conflicted, he needed to say that. (He said he wasn't, he knew he never felt that way -- ie. she wanted him to leave me for her.)

I also said the only way to effectively end an A was to end all contact, tell her that you're re-committing to our M and don't want to see her again. But this info was given at the end of a lot of revelation, a lot of emotion, a lot of information. And while I KNEW the emotional discussion was coming, had done lots of preparation, I still found it exhausting. I can only imagine that it was pretty overwhelming for him.

So how much of this info is it reasonable to expect him to retain? My real question for you is how far do I push him? It seems like the WS will intuitively choose the wrong way to end the A...is it help or control to assist them in ending the A the "right" way?

Discussion overload? Print articles? Should I offer my counselling session (on Wednesday) to him? To let him discuss his issues surrounding the ending of the A with a neutral professional?

If I don't demand the A end, do I simply continue to state that any continued contact with OW hurts our M? Hurts me? Can I ask him if he's told her yet? When he plans to do so? Do I say that I don't want him to erase the call log anymore? Tell me when he talks to her each day and what about?

Aren't these all demands?

Even the STD testing is a straightforward demand...should I instead be holding off on any renewed SF? Our lack of sexual relationship led (in large part) to the fertile infidelity grounds in the first place so I think it needs to be addressed ASAP. It was my disinclination before, not his. He wants to renew a sexual relationship with me too...but is withdrawal going to interfere? Do I just assume withdrawal will happen even under these circs? (ie. he was disentangling himself before the exposure of A between us)

I am not really worried that he will sleep with her again. That isn't what hurt me to begin with and like I said before, I knew the PA would be worse for him than for me. The PA was occasional...the EA has been constant (although diminishing over the past few weeks as I met his ENs).

What I need him to understand is that there cannot be a continuing friendship with her. This topic is where I thought printing out some of the stuff about EAs, and some of the reflections of WS here might help him to understand the danger in continuing contact -- why it is important for both of us that he end all contact with her for good. And why he needs to tell me whenever he slips (I gather it is virtually guaranteed that he WILL slip up in future?).

I do believe (feel free to call me a naive BS here) that he is totally serious about reconciling, that he wants to be married to me. I've seen the changes in him and his remorse. But I don't want to head down the wrong path at this point, with me making demands that are later resented. Or experiencing a false start (early guilt = later secret contact) because I pushed before he was ready on every level. Or alternately, by not pushing hard enough which leaves him in a vulnerable place when there was no need to do so.

Reminder: she's a predator. She's not going away easily. She's dreadfully manipulative. He doesn't see ANY of this. He feels sorry for her because he knows full well he was using her. And he likes her. (Loves her? She's his good friend...)

Please JL -- give me a talking to about not LBing this situation, and pointers on when giving him space is important and when it isn't. If you see any danger signs in anything I said or what happened.

I feel lost and at another crucial juncture.

THANKS!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

OK...now I found my previous thread...finally noticed the page #s at the bottom of the screen (duh!) -- this is the first board I've ever participated in so I'm learning as I go!

Anyhow..."confronting or retreating"...page 3.

Awed,

You asked a lot of questions. So let me be brief because I am pretty busy this week.

Step one is to get the affair to end.
The way to do this is for him to write her a No Contact letter. There are some on this site, or ask and someone will offer you one they used. This letter should be short concise and basically state that he is working on his marriage and will have no contact with her. You should see the letter before he mails it.

No since in the past he has felt that you sort of controlled things, if memory serves me, you could introduce him to Harley's books. I think Surviving an Affair would be good. So that he knows that you are not just dreaming this stuff up to hurt him or OW.

So stay in Plan A for right now. However, as you talk discuss your needs, bring them in gently, and have him start to do the same. Especially when you are on vacation. No deep relationship talks, but just short pieces of information being passed.

Once the A is over, then as you know withdrawal will start. It is NOT pleasant for either party, but it can be made more so if you realize what is happening and just let somethings slide off of your back. Since he was looking for a way to end the PA, I think withdrawal may not be as bad as it can get. But, what will help is if you acknowledge to yourself AND to him, that you realize he has an emotional attachment to her, and that she was providing things he felt he needed. If you do this, it makes her more human, and NOT a super hero or super *****. He doesn't have to defend her and he doesn't his choice. That will help remove her from a much focus and that is what you want.

Recovery is often a very torturous path, and a narrow one. But, I think you have made some very good moves in acknowledging your guilt for you behavior. He feels guilt for his. This sort of puts you on equal footing.

The important point about equal footing, is that LB's are easier to resist, if you don't feel he is beneath you. It will be easier to avoid throwing his affair in his face (something he is very worried about.) Please remember that the WS often doesn't mind doing penence for his sins, but they worry if it is a lifetime sentence. You want a marriage partner not a beaten down man for an H so it is in your interest to understand this.

Frankly, I would talk to him and be honest with what you want. If I may I'll would offer that you say:

1. You want him as a husband.

2. You feel he has done you wrong and should feel guilt about it and help you get over it.

3. You don't want this to be a lifetime sentence for him, you want a marriage where the two of you share life and have freedom to love and respect without guilt. THat is the goal you would like to reach.

4. You understand that you have issues as well, and will need HIS help in addressing them, and that means he must be honest with you, and he must express his feelings to you. Not for review but so that you and he can then decide what makes you both the happiest.

5. YOUR goal is a marriage where he is happy and fully committed and where you are the same to him.

Nuts! I had another thought and the phone rang and after that conversation I cannot remember what else I want to say.

But, on this weekend or week with relatives, ENJOY yourselves. Few relationship talks, but learn to enjoy him and have him enjoy you.

AS for STD's, yup he needs to get tested. Until then abstinence (sp) is best, but if not the condoms for awhile. Talk with him about this. The fact that YOU bring up sex and how and when to accomplish this will definitely be a deposit in the love bank.

Once recovery is started consider getting and reading His Needs Her Needs by Harley if you don't have it.

Most of all you two should use the past as a guideline of what not to do, you should NOT live there. Where you want to live and spend most of your time discussing is the future and how you two want to live in this future. You would do well to view his A as the past once it is over, and as a learning experience for you both.

Yes, I know you hurt and will hurt, but those that finally understand that this A was a consequence of a situation you could both have controlled and then his BAD judgement, the A itself, often do better. I doubt he meant to hurt you, but of course how could he avoid it given what he decided. But, the point is if you both end up married to each other and much happier than before, then you will like many others here will be saying " The A was the worst thing in my life, but our response to it has made our marriage better than it ever was before."

Quite a quandry isn't it, something so bad leading to something that is good? That is where you are going AWed.

So be honest with him, be gentle, acknowledge what you know and fear, but enjoy his presence and allow him to see the person you really are and that you do love him. I suspect he will respond appropriately given time. AND you will enjoy the new you.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I really appreciate that you've spent time on this again, especially during a busy week. All the questions were intended as a guide through my confusion and what you've given me in response is a great plan to work with.

Enjoying each other's company is easy...scarily so!!! He's jumped right back in, and I mean he is suddenly fully THERE, where he has been absent (but thawing) for the last 2 months. That's why I am having so much trouble really believing the change could be that easy...that simply having the A exposed would make it that easy for him to feel differently and act so very very differently towards me.

I guess his reaction could be the relief from the release of guilt...I know he felt like dirt. Whatever the case, I feel now like I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop...hope I'm wrong.

Awed,

Well, it hasn't been "right back in". It has taken several months of work on your side of things. Also remember if he was emotionally/morally stuck ( I don't want to hurt this lady, it was my fault, how can I just leave her and go back to where I want to be? ) then you finding out and offering him a way back made the decision "clean" for him. Morally the right thing to do was come back, emotionally he wanted to come back, but to JUST LEAVE the OW would cause great pain. His W KNOWING about the affair and wanting him back, makes it the "correct" thing to do and so he could do it.

I don't know if you have children, but it has been studied and realized that children need boundaries. They need a basis for decisions and they need someone to blame when peer pressure is forcing them one way, and they are not really comfortable to go that way. Then being able to say: "I can't, have you seen how BIG my father is?? He would beat me to a pulp if I did that." Then when some kid mouths off about this kid being a weenie, the response "fine go tell my Dad how you feel". That usually shuts down the peer pressure.

The point is you provided a way for him to get out. You may not realize this but that is what Plan A is all about. It is a way for the WS to end the affair "gracefully". The BS has changed, the BS is forgiving, the BS wants ME back, etc. So if the WS is in over their head and looking for a way out, the plan A often works. "My spouse has changed and I need to go back and see if this works."

As you can tell from reading here, that many are NOT looking for a way out of the A, so then here comes plan B. Which in its essence is to wait out the A until it dies, and do so with a minimum of damage to the BS.

So your fear of the other shoe is normal, but don't let the fear stop you from enjoying your H, working on the marriage, and you two HELPING EACH OTHER build the marriage that you BOTH want. That takes talking about the FUTURE, and simply using the past as data for what did NOT work.

God Bless,

JL

Can I just say again...thank you so much. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You have been a wonderful non-LB coach! I will continue to lurk around for your posts because they really help me understand the true nature of our communication gap.

And gotcha...leave the past in the past. Done. I mean it.

He is back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Completely. This morning convinced me. We covered all the ground you've already mentioned and then some.

At first, he didn't want to talk about the A until I explained the nature of recovery. Then he answered every question I had, fully. I've kept them to a minimum because I feel I've already moved a fair bit down the recovery path and details would likely boomerang me back into pain. Besides which, I already know all about her and lots about their "meetings"! One advantage in my situation I guess...

Essentially I just explored what needs he had and how she met them. They were exactly as I expected, no surprises -- little sex (because he felt guilty most of the time! Bizarre...) and lots of validation.

You are/were right on in everything you've surmised over the past few weeks and in your message above. Except surprisingly that he feels less for her than I imagined. In other words, he sees that she should have been expecting them to split (!) and doesn't want a dragged-out ending. But on the other hand, I'm pretty sure he thought they could remain friendly until I explained that it isn't really over until it is seen to be over, and that continued contact will not work on a number of levels. I also said the EA was harder on me than the PA -- understandable perhaps but really painful nonetheless.

This morning was funny too...I said I never in a million years thought he'd have an affair. He said neither did he! But everything I've read says that is part of the MLC as well, acting out of character during amazingly stressful times. And this year was certainly overpoweringly stressful, quite apart from our marriage problems.

And one final chuckle for you...I think he's waiting for that other shoe to drop too -- he's a little bit sceptical that I can keep from LBing him in future. I simply said that I'll just have to continue earning his trust. And then added, as he will have to do with me!

You know, I like this equal footing thing...I think it is making it easier to move on into the new and exciting future.

Awed,

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You done good girl.

JL

Cheers JL!