Ok, I have another question which is sure to come up. Background first. My W has been a stay-at-home mom for our entire marriage. She has had various part-time jobs over the past couple years, more for an escape than anything I think. Here is the question: Since she is having the A and has moved out and wants a D, how much financial support am I obligated to give her? Now, obviously, I have to give her enouh to adequately take care of the kids. But I REALLY, REALLY do not want to finance this whole little independance movement of hers. I don't want to make this A any easier for her, and if she wants a D would it not make sense to cut her off finacially...so as to give her a more realistic view of what it will be like? Am I obligated to continue making her car payments? How about car insurance? Health insurance? That is about $500 dollars a month right there, and that doesn't include money for the kids or food or anything else. I'd like to totally cut her off, but obviously don't want to do it in an LB sort of way. Would I be justified in doing those things?

The first thing I would do is change the locks again. You don't want her coming into house whenever she wants.

I would not change anything about car payment or insurance yet. Health insurance you want to keep. You are still married and are still responsible for medical problems.

Whose name is the car loan in and who is the owner on the title?

If separation last another 2 months, you might want to start thinking about the car payment depending on whose name the loan is in. Depending on your state, the courts will require you to support her for awhile. In NC, no alamony if A but if spouse was a stay at home spouse, that spouse would receive support for a period of time.

The car is in her maiden name, her dad borrowed her the money prior to our engagement. I've made every payment, even before we were married. Why is auto insurance still my responsability? I understand the economical implecations of dropping her from the health insurance, if she gets hurt or ill, but I'd risk it to get the point across and if it will hasten her decision to stay.

Am I just going off the deep end here?

Car insurance and car payment you could tell her that you would be willing to pay until XXXXX date. This would add additional pressure to her about finances but DO NOT DROP THE HEALTH INSURANCE. There is not possitive thing that comes for dropping the health insurance. This decision is made during the Divorce. If anything happened, you would be responsible. She could have an accident or be diagnosed with cancer and you would be screwed. Once she is dropped, she will have to be underwritten again to be placed on the policy again and if she suddenly develops a medical problem, they will not add her. I work for a Insurance company, there is nothing possive that can come from dropping her. The second item is you would be sending the wrong message. The message would not be about the money but this action would tell her that you do not have any feeling for her. If you don't care about her health then you don't care about her.......

Ok, that makes some sense to me. I'll keep her on the health insurance. She has been diagnosed as high risk for cervical cancer, so as luck would have it, she get it as soon as I drop her. I do care about her ans I'm not going to let that happen. But the car and associated insurance, I think that is her baby! Well, that will save me about $350 a month anyway. I think I'll squirrel it away for possible future legal fees. I know everyone here says that I shouldn't believe anything she says, but she is pretty convincing when she talks about divorce. And I know she is in contact with an atty. For that matter, so have I. But in my case it is just for strategic education adn my rights with the kids, house, ect...

<sigh> Why do I always have to be the dissenter??? It's not fair!!! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Ok, let me start with my usual disclaimer. I don't do nice. Honest, courteous, respectful... sure no excuse for not being any and all of those things.... but nice..... nah.....doesn't work for me and doesn't work for most things. (Aren't ya glad you don't live in my house?? LOL)

Soooooo...... keeping that in mind. I wouldn't pay for a thing that doesn't have your name on it and that you are not obligated to pay. Now before ya'll go beating me up on this let me quote something.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Until then [the affair ending permanently]I will avoid seeing you or talking to you. I will also not be able to help you financially. pp81 excerpt from PBL Surviving an Affair</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan B was designed to help [the WS] discover that all of her needs could not be met by [the OP].* To achieve that objective [the BS] had to stop meeting those needs for a while and let [the OP] meet them. But Plan B was crippled by [the WS's] attorney who advised [the WS] to return home and kick [the BS] out. The attorney also advised [the WS]to get a legal separation and a court order for [the BS] to pay her three thousand dollars a month in child support shortly after [the WS] returned home. [The BS] was forced by law to meet part of her need for financial support.
pp82 Surviving an Affair</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(*This has since changed and Plan B is not a strategy to protect the BS from further pain.)

So...... given all that, I would not offer to pay a thing. Make the house payments as long as you are there, take care of the kids' needs when you have them, and let her really have a feel for the consequences of her actions. It's not ok to expect you to finance her life (and her affair!!) when she insists she wants no part of the marriage. The finacial support you offer is conditional on the fact that there is a marriage.

Ok..... asbestos suit on and waiting for the blast. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Maybe that meeting at school tonight is not such a bad thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

C

Wait.... second disclaimer...... definitely keep her on the medical insurance. That's one of those things that go in the category of causing problems later in reconciliation and recovery.

Now, speaking of fog talk and being hopeless.... let me tell you something cool. Within the last 24 hours I've had two people with supposedly "hopeless" cases.... where the spouse said it was over, done, there was no way the marriage could work and they were never coming home..... email me to say that they got the call. The spouse wants to know what it takes to come home and fix the marriage.

TWO!!!! (Are you sensing my thrilled-ness here)

It happens, RJ. Every day. You cannot base your actions on fog talk. It's not real. Your day will come.

C

Oh... and when you get that call? You get a hold of Jenn immediately to talk conditions for recovery. She does not come home until the n/c letter is sent and there are stringent conditions agreed to. Honesty, Accountability, Time, Protection, Care. If you can't find Jenn.... you get a hold of me. Ok? Cool.

Later....

C

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>(*This has since changed and Plan B is not a strategy to protect the BS from further pain.)</strong>

...assume you mean "Plan B is NOW a strategy to...

You see, you guys are so cool...I could never really leave this board for good. ok...group hug...<<<<<HUUUUGGG>>>>>... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Two cases is awesome (can you sense my encouraged sense of hope at this....???? Oh, and of course my thrilled-ness as well).

I feel alittle better knowing that. Tonight was a little sticky for me. She came here this morning to watch the kids, our 4 y.o. has pre-school on M-W-F afternoons and she didn't want to keep the boys in the car all day (remember, she is living with her folks 55 mi. away). She got here and I went to work. She called office around noon to find out when I was leaving for home. I get home and tell her I'd drop the kids off around 7 a.m. tomorrow and good bye, have a good night. She acted absolutley stunned. Wanting to know what I meant. I turned around (as I started to walk away from her) and said: "I'm home now, you need to go." Again she looked stunned. I added: "No contact is no contact. Good bye." She got really snotty and said that she was going across the street to visit with nieghbor lady and would be back after awhile to load up some more stuff. I just walked away. She returned a little later all in a tissy and started to tell me she hated me, I make her sick, and a bunch of other mean things as well. I just let it roll of my back. I told her that I was going to be ripping out the carpet in the bedroom this weekend and was putting a wood floor in, did she think that was ok? (I wasn't sure if you are supposed to PJOA in plan B, so I aired on the safe side here). She got all nasty and wanted to know if my daddy (she said this in a baby-like voice) was giving me the wood (he is a hardwood flooring contractor....shameless plug for MasterCraft Floors of Minnesota, Inc. ...sorry <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) I said no, but speaking of money, I was going to make her car payment this month and then it was her responsibility, insurance too. She flew off the handle. Telling me that her dad would take me to court, her atty. said if I didn't pay it she would subpeonia (sp) me, that I owe her half of the balance...she pay the other half, and so on. I just said: "let them". When she left for home, I called her dad (the loan for the car came from him...to her...prior to our M) to let him know this. He got a little angry with me and asked how the hell she was going to pay it when she didn't have any money. I told him that she was looking for a job, but if she wasn't paying him, he should call me and we could work something out under the table...I don't want to hose him out of the money. He got more angry and asked why I was cutting her off, leaving her out in the cold. Now, keep in mind, he knows about the A. I told him that she walked out, she wants a D, and if that is the case; the reality is that I'm not going to be paying her bills. She is sitting on the fence trying to decide if she wants our M or this other lifestyle. I want more than anything for her to come back and us to work on the M, but she can't have it both ways. He calmed down a bit and agreed. I've explained plan A & B to them (her folks) but I don't think they fully understood the extent of it. I was afraid she'd turn her folks against me, seems she has been somewhat successful. But right now, that isn't so scary to me. Her dad is fairly reasonable, and I'm sure he doesn't agree with what she is doing. I'm not sure if she has convinced them that I was wrong about her having an affair or not. I'm wondering if I should show them the tape of her being dropped off at 6:00 am at her car. Just to strengthen my position with them. Right now, it's her word against mine. And she has more exposure to them than I do.

What do you guys think? Should I show them the tape?

<small>[ October 08, 2003, 10:45 PM: Message edited by: Want My Wife Back ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mike C2:
<strong>[QUOTE]Originally posted by cerri:
<strong>(*This has since changed and Plan B is not a strategy to protect the BS from further pain.)</strong>

...assume you mean "Plan B is NOW a strategy to...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ROFL....... sorry Mike, it's the nails and the fact that I have no letters left on most of my keyboard and I try to do waaay too much stuff at one time and don't always proofread as thoroughly as I should.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Thanks for catching that. :eek <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> It does change the meaning just a tad, doesn't it?

C

No....Mom and Dad don't get to see the tape. Helping her parents understand though is not a bad idea. Continue to tell them you love her, but cannot enable her affair by making it convenient for her to leave you. She needs to understand what things you actually do for her so she can make a real decision about what she wants. It sounds like you did a really good job in the face of real ugliness from your wife. I for one am proud of you....I know it wasn't easy considering how nasty she was. Try to remember that that is not your wife. Aliens have taken over her body.

Her use of baby tones while trying to humiliate you tells at what age level she's operating. I'm with Star and Cerri. You're doing great! You definitely stopped her in her tracks. Remember: don't believe anything she says. She's in a deep fog and doesn't know what she's saying. She's beginning to realize that she was wrong about a few things. And wrong is not something she wants to feel right now.

We are here for you.

Star:No....Mom and Dad don't get to see the tape. Helping her parents understand though is not a bad idea.

Sorry, I've been gone.... you mean the tape you made of her and OM? Is she denying to them that there is an A? Does the tape give good evidence that there is?

Star:Try to remember that that is not your wife. Aliens have taken over her body.

This is so true. I really like WAT's analogy because it's something we can all relate to. But in a very real sense.... not an analogy.... she is under the influence. I'm sure you've been with someone who has had enough to drink that they don't know what they are saying and they are not capapble of making good rational decisions. With alcohol or drugs it's easy to see that they are incapacitated. With behavioral addictions you don't have the other obvious physical symptoms, but the inability to see clearly and to make choices with good judgment is the same.

I do have an interesting lecture on romantic love and its power to affect our ability to reason, even when it's not an affair or other inappropriate R.... some day when you have the time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hi Star!!! <smiling and waving>

C

Well, the tape shows the following:

In the begining I tell what she told me she was going to be doing...going over to a friends house and watching a movie, possibly crashing on their couch. Then we drive by said friends house at 4:45 am, no W there. Next we find the truck at the Wal-Mart parking lot all by itself. I walk up to the truck and verify that it ours. Next, I make some predictions as to what I think will happen next (when she'll be at truck, who will drop her off, what type of vehicle they drive, so on), then she pulls up with OM in his truck at 6:00 am. Next I confront her and ask her to explain, she says nothing but pushes the camera in my face. Finally, I approach OM (who is sitting in his truck watching) and we get into a bit of a screaming match (I know this was bad on my part). He proceeds to call me every name in the book and tells me to get a clue, she doesn't love me anymore, she just wants to get away from me, so on. He comes out looking pretty sleazy here. At the very end I say that I hope he sleeps well at night. He screams back: "I sleep just fine B*tch!!!"

All in all it is pretty damaging to her claims that he is just a friend and nothing is going on. Makes her look like a lying, cheating whore. Not that I think that, but she doesn't look to good here.

She has been denying there is an affair to everyone. She is tying to convince people that I somehow got this idea in my head and that is all it took. She says I have no proof and went nuts telling everyone she is cheating. Of course, I'm not acting nuts and I do have proof. And of course, she doesn't tell people everything. For example: she won't tell people that he has expressed feelings for her, or that she has developed feelings for him. No, of course not, that is besides the point...right.

Her parents just say that we both have our problems and we just need to work them out. However, over the course of the last month, it seems they are slowly turning to her side. It seems it no longer matters that she is having an A, making me think she has put doubt in their minds of if it is true or not. It also doesn't seem to matter that she walked out, wants a D, has no intentions to try and save M, is all by herself ripping apart our kids family. All they say is it is a bad situation for the kids and we need to fix it fast. As if I can do anything more than I have done.

Anyway, I was just thinking if they saw the tape, it might strengthen their resolve. What do ya think?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Want My Wife Back:
<strong> he sleeps well at night. He screams back: .

Anyway, I was just thinking if they saw the tape, it might strengthen their resolve. What do ya think?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"might strengthen their resolve" ? I don't understand. You mean their resolve to stand by their daughter, or their resolve to condemn adultery and infidelity?

"We" - who was in the car with you?

I vote for making a copy of the tape and sending it to them. It exposes the affair, and if you want to recover your marriage, the MB method is to shine light on it. If your in-laws refuse to see what their D is doing after they watch the video, you will know they are in denial. In that case, you will know
a) how she came by her values
b) not to waste any more time trying to enlist their help to restore your marriage, and thus
c) step up the MB methods, Plan A, Plan B, etc.
If they acknowledge that their daughter is cheating on her marriage, and if they condemn her for it, you can enlist their support and your job to recover your marriage may be easier.

Sorry about the kids. That's a heartbreaker.

P.S.
Okay, so you got into a screaming match. So what if you don't look so good! You caught the two of them red handed. It's real life, not a movie. (though it is on tape )

Anyone who is not walking around with ice in their veins would lose their cool. You're not some professional, some journalist, some private investigator, doing a job. You're a betrayed spouse, fighting for your marriage. Don't be so self-critical of showing your emotions.

Yeow. be kind to yourself.

I want to strengther her parents resolve to help her do the right thing...return to M, end A, n/c with OM, ect...

The "we" I refered to in the car is me and the kids. You see, she left at 11:00 pm on a Sunday night to go to this friends house...a friend that we've only meet a couple of times. At about 4:00 am, I awoke and realized what a bunch of bullsh*t her story was. Hence we went looking for her.

Your thoughts about her folks and there reaction to the tape are similar to what I was thinking. I have already exposed A to them but it seems they are doubting me at this point in time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Want My Wife Back:
<strong>I want to strengther her parents resolve to help her do the right thing...return to M, end A, n/c with OM, ect...

The "we" I refered to in the car is me and the kids. You see, she left at 11:00 pm on a Sunday night to go to this friends house...a friend that we've only meet a couple of times. At about 4:00 am, I awoke and realized what a bunch of bullsh*t her story was. Hence we went looking for her.

Your thoughts about her folks and there reaction to the tape are similar to what I was thinking. I have already exposed A to them but it seems they are doubting me at this point in time.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ah, I see. I'm sorry the kids were in the car, how awful. Were they awake? (Hopefully that early in the a.m. they were asleep after you put them in the car and drove around for awhile.)

Very unfortunate, but what's done is done. They were safer with you than left home alone, at any rate. And given the situation, you are after all in a crisis, I completely understand why you reacted and acted as you did.

About her parents, and showing them the tape, I would, especially if they're starting to believe their daughter's spin on this affair and abandonment, but then my life is no glowing success, and I can't say that we recovered our marriage (and that's another story)

So, while I have an opinion, consult with the experts here (Cerri) and follow their advice.

At least you didn't just sit and fume helplessly; you went and fought for your marriage. You got guts, fella. Thank God for testosterone and real men.

Well, the kids were awake at the time the W and OM showed up. My kids are 2 and 4 and are both boys. My 4 year old has been asking some tough questions about all this. I just keep telling him that I love him and his brother very much, I'm proud of them, and I'll always be here for them. I tell them that I love their mommy very much and she loves them, this is not their fault. He just tells me he knows. I have a really hard time when he is crying for mommy and wants to know why she left and when she is comming back. I just tell him that she isn't mad at them, she is mad at me. Finally I told him that Mommy is sick right now. She is sick in her head and sick in her heart. I'm doing everything I can to help her get well again.

I try to put things in terms that he'll understand and that don't destroy his image of his mom. I remember how important mom was at that age, she is bigger than life to him. He needs her. The W and I are splitting time with the kids about 50-50 right now, so it isn't like he never sees her. But hem knows this isn't right, and it hurts him. That just breaks my heart.